Unit - Reward suggestions thread:

Killar wrote:
Why replacing a anti vehicle car for better anti infantry firepower if you just could build the T90??

The Honey was just as good a taking on armor as the T-70, in fact its 37mm had a better chance to penatrate armor than the 45mm of the T70 that is why the soviets loved it. It actually was one of the most demaned vehicles of the war by the soviets.

but you said this tank should have better anti infantry performance, thus making the T90 useless.

But thats the whole concept about these tanks, that soviets have specialized units. The T70 is against armor and T90 against infantry. Merging them like a M8 destroys this concept.

OdinsWolfpack wrote:
OdinsWolfpack
Ingenery


  I find it really annoying for the soviets to have to mg. I realize they compensate in other ways ie the d28 light mgs upgrades and  hords of inf but still annoying when your tryin to hold down a side of a map in the early stages of the game. So i thought that it might be a cool idea to give them a machingun crew and use the same machingun thats in their mg dug outs. The team would have to wheel it around like the at crew does at a faster rate of course but slower than a reg mg team so there would be a draw back to it. idk jus a thought i have might give them a better chance in one on one battles and in 2v2 or 3v3 you wouldnt rely on a american teamate as much. tell me what you think 

Try not to post the same exact thing in two different threads :P. We see it the first time ;).

And the T-70 and T-90 basically forces you to choose b/w AI and AT.

Besides the M3 Stuart is a US tank :P. Wouldn't you rather your SU faction have SU units?

No; but it would be fun to make the 85mm gun as a reward unit for the OBR. Seriously, think about it. Its not like the soviets dont have enough arty right?

ya sorry bout double post

Wait, TH got replaced? i haven't been playing coh recently, so i wouldn't know. and why are people still hot on mg team?

TH are still there, just nerfed :P. And ppl complain about MGs probably cause they thought 1.6 would have MGs. Obviously this wasnt the case.

They got nerfed? in what ways? I'd say Soviet Union is better off WITHOUT an mg team lol.

irik wrote:
They got nerfed? in what ways? I'd say Soviet Union is better off WITHOUT an mg team lol.

I think THs do less dmg per shot  :-\. Not fully sure. Check changelog :P

THs had their penetration at long range nerfed but also had their cooldown at short range reduced. This way, their shots will bounce a lot more at range but they will fire faster and thus be more deadly at short range.

Would it be possible to post a side-by-side comparison of the Soviet Firebase, the British 25 pounder, and the American Howitzer? From what I see, the Allies have artillery coming out the wazoo. The Howitzer is doctrinal, true, but Infantry Company is a common choice anyway. So it might be possible to replace one of them with a reward unit; I have the idea of a 4.2 inch Chemical Mortar pit for the Americans firing incendiary/smoke WP, but I'd rather not toss that out as a proper suggestion just yet.

sandycaesar wrote:
Would it be possible to post a side-by-side comparison of the Soviet Firebase, the British 25 pounder, and the American Howitzer?

IIRC GLD was suppose to do some sort of tips of the week thing (involving the SU firbase) but that never happened :P. Ask him

Trannyhunterx wrote:
TH are still there, just nerfed :P. And ppl complain about MGs probably cause they thought 1.6 would have MGs. Obviously this wasnt the case.

This has never been a problem for me, I either;
1: Take one from the enemy's cold dead hands
2: Wait for allied support
3: Get them from an allied paradrop

The Soviet's main advantage is their horde and specialists, a mg would just slow them down IMO.

I'd prefer the term Tide instead of Horde, makes them feel more glorious.

Tankbuster wrote:
I'd prefer the term Tide instead of Horde, makes them feel more glorious.

LOL, spam, but funny spam. XD  ;)

I have a suggestion, would you guys consider to arm the tank riders ( Tankodesantniki) with the body armor SN-42 since i just came across it  on wiki

i think that the tank riders are exactly the same as guards or shock guards if you have the upgrade. so if you improved tank riders you would have to improve guards as well.

Mr.iuos.Q wrote:
I have a suggestion, would you guys consider to arm the tank riders ( Tankodesantniki) with the body armor SN-42 since i just came across it  on wiki

I wouldn't be for it. Sturmovie Ingenery have SN-42, if i'm not wrong. Sturmovie Ingenery can support tanks well, they're good fighters for units that can repair.

Mr.iuos.Q wrote:
I have a suggestion, would you guys consider to arm the tank riders ( Tankodesantniki) with the body armor SN-42 since i just came across it  on wiki

Are you suggesting a upgrade that helps them fight better or just a change in looks? If its an appearance change then I dont know, ask devs :P

Guys, i have another suggestion on the model of the naval infantry. Having nothing to offend, the naval infantries look really cool and badass but i consider that they would look better if you guys could give them another feature is the SSh-40 helmet which was also used by the naval infantries in the war . And i think 2 members of the team, especially the ones that carry upgraded weapons (DP, PTRD) , could have the helmet, and the rest keep their old out-fit.

Mr.iuos.Q wrote:
Guys, i have another suggestion on the model of the naval infantry. Having nothing to offend, the naval infantries look really cool and badass but i consider that they would look better if you guys could give them another feature is the SSh-40 helmet which was also used by the naval infantries in the war . And i think 2 members of the team, especially the ones that carry upgraded weapons (DP, PTRD) , could have the helmet, and the rest keep their old out-fit.

Well I suppose there's nothing wrong with this, however it's very minor it seems and the devs are busy at work with the Ostheer. They'll reskin the soviet stuff once they're done.

i second this notion, but only after 2.00

Mr.iuos.Q wrote:
Guys, i have another suggestion on the model of the naval infantry. Having nothing to offend, the naval infantries look really cool and badass but i consider that they would look better if you guys could give them another feature is the SSh-40 helmet which was also used by the naval infantries in the war . And i think 2 members of the team, especially the ones that carry upgraded weapons (DP, PTRD) , could have the helmet, and the rest keep their old out-fit.

great! can you model, animate and skin it?

@Mr.iuos.Q
Well, I think we can look at it at the future, when soviets models start to be reworked ;).

So, I've just been doing some reading on the Soviet Airborne troops, and that got me thinking. After all, American paras, British commandos, and German Fallschirmjaegers are already represented: why not the Soviet VDV?

The VDV undertook three major combat drops in WWII: the 1942 Vyazma operation, the 1942 Demiansk pocket, and the 1943 Dnieper River crossing operation. In all three cases they got butchered horribly, but they still fought as leg infantry throughout the war. It's mentioned that when a drop went wrong (...all the time), they'd meet up with local partisans and conduct guerrilla warfare.

I'm thinking of having VDV troops replace either Naval Infantry, or Partisans. If the latter, they could give Urban Combat players a hard-hitting midgame infantry unit, which they need. Potentially they'd be more expensive than Partisans, better-armored, incapable of camouflage (or else only capable of Fallschirmjaeger camo), deadly at close range, in contrast to medium-range Navals. In exchange, they lose the ability to plant demolition charges and incendiary traps. Alternatively, they'd be good all-around infantry who can't infiltrate from buildings like Partisans can; that would distinguish them from Partisans and Fallschirmjaegers and change their nature from back-line ambushers to frontline combatants. Give 'em blue berets and telnyashkas and let 'em rip!

I think they could replace the Partisans aesthetically but game wise (as in different abilities and such), perhaps not immediately. Maybe later on they could replace them game wise and lets say replace the incendiary mine thing :P

Oo! I've thought of a potential way to distinguish them further: give the option to upgrade them with SKS carbines. Most sources I've seen agreed that there were a limited number of Simonovs on the Eastern Front in 1945, undergoing combat trials; there's no indication which lucky units got them, so may as well be the VDV. To distinguish between SVTs and SKSes, have the latter fire faster with fewer movement penalties, and be better at short range than medium range. The exact numbers and methodology will have to balanced via trial-and-error, needless to say.

I've also thought of another reward "unit", so to speak: 4.2 inch mortar WP barrage, as a replacement for the American Infantry Company's Off-Map Artillery. There's historical basis for this: the Chemical Mortar battalions were widely feared by the Germans for their HE and WP barrages. Instead of firing HE shells, though, they fire WP shells that:
* Lay down a heavy smokescreen instead of exploding in the massive artillery explosion. There are a lot of potential uses for a big smokescreen, after all.
* The explosion of impact will have a medium radius and deal immediate fire damage to infantry, like the Panzer Elite exploding boobies booby traps. Damage to vehicles will be fairly minimal. On the other hand, since it counts as fire damage, cover doe not protect against it.
* Optional: vehicles caught near blast center suffer some damage and are stunned, like a T17 WP shell ability.
* Unlike the Wehrmacht Incendiary Barrage, it does not leave patches of fire on the ground. Not only does it make it a more unique ability, it also changes the utility: it's not usable for mass area denial, and it can't burn out infantry from buildings over a long time. It also allows Infantry commanders to charge Rangers and Rifles into the smoke almost immediately.
* It's less damaging than the Arty Barrage; it should cost correspondingly less. At the same time it's still lethal to infantry caught within shellburst range, so it should cost quite a lot more than the Creeping Smoke Barrage for the British. I suggest a cost of 100 or 120 Muni or so.

Opinions?

take out partisans? never! you know that those guys singlehandedly liberated the town of mostar right?

Well, they are intended as reward units, after all. The alternative is having them as the reward unit for Navals, but I think Urban Combat needs the infantry support more.

infantry reward unit eh? well i guess that would be acceptable. but dont ask me, im not a dev.

Mr.iuos.Q wrote:
Guys, i have another suggestion on the model of the naval infantry. Having nothing to offend, the naval infantries look really cool and badass but i consider that they would look better if you guys could give them another feature is the SSh-40 helmet which was also used by the naval infantries in the war . And i think 2 members of the team, especially the ones that carry upgraded weapons (DP, PTRD) , could have the helmet, and the rest keep their old out-fit.

I actually like it, +1 to the idea

How about Shock Troops as a replacement for Naval Infantry? They would be a 5 man squad and be heavily equipped but a little slower than most units. Two of their men would be wheeling around a M1910 Maxim which would do little suppression but high damage. This could be upgraded for 50 munitions to a RG-43. The other men would start with SVT-40s and have the option to upgrade a DP-28 two times (65 munitions each). The cost of the unit would be like 500-550 manpower. Any thoughts?

Also, how about instead of an Artillery Firebase there would be the option to build up to two weaker moveable ZiS-3 that have direct fire (no charge) ability and a light-artillery barrage of up to 150 meters?

no HMG for soviets.

other than that, get the shock guards upgrade for shock troops

arty has a significantly different role than AT, and why would we nerf the zis-3 and make it into arty? please explain.

stealthattack1 wrote:
no HMG for soviets.

other than that, get the shock guards upgrade for shock troops

arty has a significantly different role than AT, and why would we nerf the zis-3 and make it into arty? please explain.

First, the "HMG" functions just like a more powerful LMG. No suppression, did you read that?
Shock Guards=/=shock army troops. The difference historically (if you know anything) between guards and shock armies were that Guards were the elite, relatively fast moving and well trained army used to exploit a breakthrough. The Shock Army was HEAVILY equipped (ISU-152s, high numbers of IS-2s, many machine guns, etc.) but had little in the way of sustaining themselves for extended conflict and making fast advances. Therefore, shock guards=fast moving elite infantry. Shock Army=Slow moving breakthrough units.

Either you worded yourself wrong or have no idea between the difference of a ZiS 2 and a ZiS 3. If you know history or have done even 30 minutes of wikipedia research, you would know that the ZiS 2 is the AT gun, the ZiS 3 is the field gun. ZiS-3=/=ZiS support gun in the game. The ZiS "Support Gun" (cough cough derp AT gun) is OBVIOUSLY still buildable. The point being that the ZiS 3s (which can and was used as a slightly weaker substitute for the ZiS 2 at times but its main role was light artillery support with some AT support when neccesary) could replace the unmoveable but powerful artillery firebase with a more mobile but weaker force.

You'd be taking away some of the AT power by giving them a wheeled Maxim, I think, especially as Naval Infantry PTRDs do provide a much-needed AT stopgap. Different strat, different role?

As for the ZiS-3s, it sounds a lot like having mobile OBRs in concept.

The biggest issue with the wheeled Maxim might actually be that everyone looks at it and sees "HMG", and then get confused why it's not suppressing.

Last edited February 24, 2012 at 2:38 AM by sandycaesar

I guess that you're right about the AT stopgap. Hmm... Maybe give the Shock Troops AT nades and make the SG-43 do some damage to light vehicles like halftracks and light armored cars? Maybe for the wheeled Maxim (or SG-43) in the description of the Shock Troops there could be a "!!!MG does not supress!!!" notice or something? or maybe list it like "Heavily armed shock troops armed with a high damage, nonsupressing MG".

And I guess you could see the ZiS-3s like that. They would be decent for medium-light AT but they would be bad against infantry. However, if they use the barrage ability (which has a cooldown and range of 20-150) they fire HE shells which are good against infantry.

bopokippo wrote:

stealthattack1 wrote:
no HMG for soviets.

other than that, get the shock guards upgrade for shock troops

arty has a significantly different role than AT, and why would we nerf the zis-3 and make it into arty? please explain.

First, the "HMG" functions just like a more powerful LMG. No suppression, did you read that?
Shock Guards=/=shock army troops. The difference historically (if you know anything) between guards and shock armies were that Guards were the elite, relatively fast moving and well trained army used to exploit a breakthrough. The Shock Army was HEAVILY equipped (ISU-152s, high numbers of IS-2s, many machine guns, etc.) but had little in the way of sustaining themselves for extended conflict and making fast advances. Therefore, shock guards=fast moving elite infantry. Shock Army=Slow moving breakthrough units.

Either you worded yourself wrong or have no idea between the difference of a ZiS 2 and a ZiS 3. If you know history or have done even 30 minutes of wikipedia research, you would know that the ZiS 2 is the AT gun, the ZiS 3 is the field gun. ZiS-3=/=ZiS support gun in the game. The ZiS "Support Gun" (cough cough derp AT gun) is OBVIOUSLY still buildable. The point being that the ZiS 3s (which can and was used as a slightly weaker substitute for the ZiS 2 at times but its main role was light artillery support with some AT support when neccesary) could replace the unmoveable but powerful artillery firebase with a more mobile but weaker force.

no need to be pissy man. you asked about these units, and i replied. you dont need to go all out about how i am uneducated or anything.

yes i read about no suppression on the HMG

yes i do know somthing, however im no ww2 history buff, so i didnt know the difference between shock guards and shock army troops. this stuff is situational history man, i didnt learn it for the same reason you didnt learn about the california gold rush.

no need to be rude. you posted this to get feedback, and i provided it.

Quick thoughts.

1. T-90 replaced with T-60? I know it might sound redundant but I like 20mm cannons and I think they do better in certain areas than MGs.


And also, a quick question. T-90s are good against infantry, terrible vs vehicles. T-70 good vs light vehicles. Fairly bad against tanks. decent against infantry. M8 which costs the same as either is good against infantry, good against light vehicles, and is significantly faster. IMO T-70s and T-90s are too weak for their cost and limited, quickly disappearing role. The gap they fill doesn't quite come together too well as first off, t-90s aren't fast so they can't be used as a reactive anti-capper like PUMAS and ACs can be. Then, it dies like AC to AT guns so no real frontline combat with AT guns around. Its only window of oppurtunity is if the opponent has no AT at all but it can't even really capitalize on that because while somewhat fast, its not an AC. T-70s are not the best against infantry unless they're parked right next to them, in which case they'll be shreded by AT fire. To really make anything happen, you need to intensively micro it to strategically target any light vehicles. I think T-70s needs slightly better performance against infantry (maybe 1.3x accuracy or bigger splash) or a cost reduction. Also, maybe T-90s should do a little more damage vs light vehicles like PE halftracks? or do they already do as much dmg as BARs or vickers bren carriers? I just say that by the time light tanks have been fielded, A soviet will have spent about more fuel than it would take a PE to get a light ATHT and AC out and that the enemy will surely have some form of AT on the field. However, ACs can swiftly evade AT whereas light tanks cannot do so as well.

^please take my opinion with just a little grain of salt plz. I tend to say that everything is too weak ;D

I agree that t-90s are in an odd place right now. They're at best a mid-game unit, but really only function like an early/mid-game one. It seems unreasonable to move them from the tank depot. What do you think about making the tank depot cheaper, and jacking up the price on the t-34/kv-1? That would make the t-90 available a little earlier, and you wouldn't have to tweak it.

QuoteI've also thought of another reward "unit", so to speak: 4.2 inch mortar WP barrage, as a replacement for the American Infantry Company's Off-Map Artillery. There's historical basis for this: the Chemical Mortar battalions were widely feared by the Germans for their HE and WP barrages. Instead of firing HE shells, though, they fire WP shells that:
* Lay down a heavy smokescreen instead of exploding in the massive artillery explosion. There are a lot of potential uses for a big smokescreen, after all.
* The explosion of impact will have a medium radius and deal immediate fire damage to infantry, like the Panzer Elite exploding boobies booby traps. Damage to vehicles will be fairly minimal. On the other hand, since it counts as fire damage, cover doe not protect against it.
* Optional: vehicles caught near blast center suffer some damage and are stunned, like a T17 WP shell ability.
* Unlike the Wehrmacht Incendiary Barrage, it does not leave patches of fire on the ground. Not only does it make it a more unique ability, it also changes the utility: it's not usable for mass area denial, and it can't burn out infantry from buildings over a long time. It also allows Infantry commanders to charge Rangers and Rifles into the smoke almost immediately.
* It's less damaging than the Arty Barrage; it should cost correspondingly less. At the same time it's still lethal to infantry caught within shellburst range, so it should cost quite a lot more than the Creeping Smoke Barrage for the British. I suggest a cost of 100 or 120 Muni or so.

I like the idea a lot. Make it more of a smoke/anti-infantry barrage instead of a kill-it-all barrage? +1 to this idea.

QuoteThe VDV undertook three major combat drops in WWII: the 1942 Vyazma operation, the 1942 Demiansk pocket, and the 1943 Dnieper River crossing operation. In all three cases they got butchered horribly, but they still fought as leg infantry throughout the war. It's mentioned that when a drop went wrong (...all the time), they'd meet up with local partisans and conduct guerrilla warfare.

I'm not sure I like the idea of VDV, even as a reward unit. Both naval infantry and partisans were much more popular. I know a bit about WWII, but I've never heard of any VDV operations. Also, it sounds like they just ended up fighting alongside partisans, so it would be kind of redundant.

Uhm guys could i ask you something about the Red tide in the propaganda strategy, i think you guys should change the call in resource to man power as your change log states that

Red Tide
* Removed replace squad ability.
* Increased command point cost of Red Tide to 3.
* You get 2 NKVD Squads and more depending of your tech level:
- An additional NKVD squad, if no support upgrade purchased.
- A Strelky/Red Banner Strelky squad, if any Soviet Support Barracks is purchased.
- A Guard/Shock Guard squad, if any Tank Hall upgrade is purchased.
* A NKVD squad consist of 5 conscripts armed with regular mosins and a commissar armed with a PPSH-41.
* NKVD's Commissar has an ability called motivate that breaks suppression for 10 seconds.
* Motivate ability duration time can be increased by 2 seconds for each vet level.
* NKVD health set to 290 manpower (58 manpower per member).
* Reinforcement time of NKVD set to 8 seconds.
* Reinforcement cost of NKVD set to 20 manpower.
And even if the ability is still available, it won't be a matter because the effect time is too short. And 200 munition is too costly but do insignificant effect. So i consider that this is only a call-in ability and the cost should be set to 500 man power.

The munitions cost is comparable to Manpower Blitz.

Its sad that Commissar squads don't have the Molotov cocktail, If they did they would be a poor man's Guard squad. A nice stopgap measure.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
The munitions cost is comparable to Manpower Blitz.

I don't think it's fair because, although the Wehr need 6 CPs and 200 munition but they get anything they like from the 900 man power plus that doesn't account for their pop cap. Even the American only spend 7 CPS and 800 man power to receive riflesquad, .30 cal MG, Mortar, Anti-Tank Gun, M8, M10, rangers that is a huge force to do a push. For the Soviet, let me put the Red tide into its ultimate form in which it only bring in 2 shtrafniki squads and 1 Guard squad and the sum of man power of those squads, which i make it out according to the cost of the regular squads, is about 820 man power ( let me put the shtrafniki's price is 240 mp). However, to get that it takes you 5 CPs which a considerable amount of killings and time.

Mr.iuos.Q wrote:

GodlikeDennis wrote:
The munitions cost is comparable to Manpower Blitz.

I don't think it's fair because, although the Wehr need 6 CPs and 200 munition but they get anything they like from the 900 man power plus that doesn't account for their pop cap. Even the American only spend 7 CPS and 800 man power to receive riflesquad, .30 cal MG, Mortar, Anti-Tank Gun, M8, M10, rangers that is a huge force to do a push. For the Soviet, let me put the Red tide into its ultimate form in which it only bring in 2 shtrafniki squads and 1 Guard squad and the sum of man power of those squads, which i make it out according to the cost of the regular squads, is about 820 man power ( let me put the shtrafniki's price is 240 mp). However, to get that it takes you 5 CPs which a considerable amount of killings and time.

You get 4 of those selections you made in Americans (2 AT 2 AI)
Wehrmacht needs more time to get to their blitz.

The ability is fine and has been used many times in competitive gamestyles. The former red tide was fail.

Manpower Blitz also lowers your income, so in the end you only get around 500-600MP or so. So Red Tide yields you a little more because the units are chosen for you. However, they are also produced instantly and Strafynie are excellent for capping or swarming a defensive position. Red Tide is also on the very useful left hand side of Prop which IMO is one of the strongest doctrine trees in the game.

Think about it this way, if you ever use firestorm, registered arty, sector arty etc. and kill 3 full enemy squads with it, you would consider that a great exchange for 150-200MU. This is like the opposite, granting you those three squads instead of killing the enemy's.

If you put it that way... But i think the Red tide also need something more like buffing your infantries in the field for a period of time during the ability is active like they would run faster and decrease the suppression on the units.

Soviets already have so many abilities like that. I think Red Tide is strong enough anyway.

I am sure someone already mentioned this but T-26 as a replacement for the T-70, not as strong or capable but a lot cheaper.



The BA-64 armoured car as a replacement for the T-90, faster, thinner armour but good for recon and flanking.



ZIS-5 truck as a replacement for the medic truck, basically replaces healing aura for the reinforcement ability(no lockdown needed).




Or....A lend-lease M3 Halftrack as a replacement for the medic truck. More expensive, reinforcement abaility(same stats more or less as the US half-track).

Most of these have already been mentioned and declined. However the Medic Truck replacement is interesting but I dont think it will work because the SU will lose their only way to heal and the SU already has Outposts available.