Unit suggestion thread:

haha.. this is not any reason at all. just give them a usal name like "landserzug" or anything else.

Like i suggested before, it would be the best just to integrate 2 granade launchers in one squad. The troop would act like the american ranger squad for example. 2 AT weapons, and (here) 2 more usual assault rifles of any kind.

The origniality it would bring in the ostheer is just amazing.


Also why should they have 2 upgrades than?
You cant upgrade a unit to everything which was actually possible in real live. That really doesnt make any sense. Just take a look at the WH halftrack, why i cant upgrade to a halftrack with a mounted pak40?

Venoxxis wrote:
Also why should they have 2 upgrades than?
You cant upgrade a unit to everything which was actually possible in real live. That really doesnt make any sense. Just take a look at the WH halftrack, why i cant upgrade to a halftrack with a mounted pak40?

So you want it working like a PIAT? (AT only)
It would be wierd that "Granade Grenadieres" throw normal granades but fire rifle granades at tanks.

But I guess its better than a 3rd shreck.
These granades could be weaker (more inaccurate?) than PIATs but could be fired while running (chasing damaged tanks).

Got to re-think my Ostheer concept becouse these rifle granades seem to be a better idea than captured Polish AT rifles.

Paciat wrote:
So you want it working like a PIAT? (AT only)

This is exactly what i want.

Paciat wrote:
But I guess its better than a 3rd shreck.
These granades could be weaker (more inaccurate?) than PIATs but could be fired while running (chasing damaged tanks).

Got to re-think my Ostheer concept becouse these rifle granades seem to be a better idea than captured Polish AT rifles.

And this is exactly what i think.
You got me right ;) - and you understand the reason why these "launchers" fit.

A third schreck would simply be boring, for the reason you mentioned.

The Easternfront "Ost-Front" - was the frontline where the greatest number of "Steel-battles" had been fought. Enormous amounts of tanks were build to stop the Wehrmacht. And these masses gotta be countered with something. And in this case, something is everything which actually means "AT". That forced the germans to use everything they had to take out the russian "ratsch-bum"-tanks masses.

-> this general fear made the Gewehrgranetgerät widely used at the easternfront.


To sum it up:
This fits pretty much better in the Ostheer than some kind of AT weapon which actually got created on the plans of the US-bazooka.

Ok, it's me again. I was thinking a lot about Assault Ingeneers, so I decided to show yopu my concept.

Their units were called Heeres-Pioneer-Sturmbrigaden, so I'll call them HPS. Because I still don't know the numbers, I'll try to describe them using existing units.

Assault Pioneers:
Tier 3 unit
Description: Special pioneers used to close combat or urban operations. Very versalite, with many upgrades.
Cost: 300 mp
Pop: 6
Weapon: 3x Mp40
Health: like 4-men panzer grenadiers squad no vet
Firepower: like 3-men volks vet3
Abilities: Fire-up! (like airbourne or rangers)

Upgrades:
1. Close Combat Weapons (75mun)
Arms your HPS with 3x MP43 and Volkshandgranate ability:
Volkshandgranate - cost 0 mun, 2 min. recharge time - made of scrap powerful frag granate. Has small range, powerful blast, however it is useless against infantry in cover or buildings.

2. Flamenwerfer ( 75 mun)
Arms one man with flamethrower. Squad gains also smoke granates ability ( 25 mun, 30 sec recharge)

3. Goliath Assault Tactics (100 mun)
Squad gains ability Deploy Goliath: ( I descriped it before, but if someone don't remember...) squad deploys Goliath, what takes 5 seconds. Player has no control over Goliath, which rushes immiedately to targeted area/unit, and detonates. During Goliath's travel squad is immobilised (but can shoot), because somebody has to control this remote bomb. Range of Ability is similar to jeep's view range. 2 minutes cooldown, cost 100 mun.

4. ( I don't know if it is possible to give 4th upgrade icon, butI think it should be)
Explosives and Mines Equipment ( 50 mun)
HPS gain ability to place explosives ( like brits commandos, 50 mun), mines (25 mun) and they get Wirecutters. Also they can put booby traps in buildings ( free).

Overall idea is to create small, flexible unit, with many upgrades, which can be used in urban warfare. Why 6 pop? Because they are quite tough ( as far I remember Wehr Pioneers die like flies) and can be armed with many weapons ( flamethrower!) and abilities, which gives them adventages in combat. However they can be used as main combat unit, but they should be designed as support unit.

cephalos wrote:
Ok, it's me again.

... All I could think was "Oh god not him"
just kidding , good idea I like the aspect, but dispise the stats. 3 men for 6 pop ? NO ,Fire up? WHY ?! The squad size of 3? why not 4??

yea really. unless they were as good or better than iron cross holders, i cant see why they should be 6 pop cap.

The Wehrmacht and PE taken the armored cars, I suggested the Panzer II to fulfill the gap between a reconnaissances scouting vehicle and a tier 3 class support light As the Russians got the T-28 T-90 the Stuart and US,Greyhound. The Panzer II should be at a cost of 350manpower & a fuel of 25.

Panzer II should come out slightly earlier than other vehicle as its appearance encourage(actually force) the allies to deploy armor cars and light tanks instead of going straight for the heavy tanks, I found out most multiplayer Allies love to spawn M10s, Kangaroos with PIAT & Bren & T-34 or SU 76 by throwing infantry to hold sectors supported by AT guns, and Axis smaller squad size or lesser Volks always being intimidated by the larger force, The Panzer II should be used to fight back the larger allies force. Its smaller profile give it a higher chance of evading vicious AT gun fire. And push infantry back, and making Allies to go for medium vehicles  instead hold down and wait for the heavy tanks, I found out experience British player tend to play defensive by laying slit trenches and hold on until friendly got the heavier tank. Panzer II should get a unique ability(upgraded via vehicle plant, cost less) with the rapid marksman shot, which take out infantry in buildings and slit trenches cost at a 535 munition for 5 to 7 seconds, which can intimidated Allies to think twice on holding a front endlessly.The Panzer II should have additional ability to overdrive at a cost of 40 munition as it is a tank and require more if you want to breakthrough the enemies or retreat to avoid loss. My Panzer II suggestion, thanks for looking it through. ;)

sounds good, is "535 munitions for 5 to 7 seconds"a error ?I sure hope so.

Maybe you're right about the pop cap... I just wanted them so "elite" as Cross Holders. So you would suggest 4-men squad for 4 pop cap? Why not...

But I think fire up is needed. I'm talking about ability to break or being inuverable to suppression - soliders in cityfights are often forced by situations to do something impossible - that's why I gave them Fire-Up! - because HPS were very brave soilders, they often were making things that normal people would call "sheer lunacy".

comrade2012 wrote:
Also, It should not be damaged by rifle grenades. grenades dont have armor penatrating power, grenades are only good versus infantry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._68_AT_Grenade

though the penentration isn't that impressive to be killing a panzer III even in the sides or back, it can certainly damage it, or even killing the engine.

actually, instead of having flak guns, I think a twin MG34 would work for the new army, you can also mount the twin MG34 on a opel blitz truck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_34#Characteristics

and that panther turret already in game for campaigns... well I think that might be awesome to put in the game :p

Last edited April 18, 2010 at 11:01 AM by LeaderH

i agree with panzerwilly for the Pz2 ... good for recco and against early blob  ... one speed ability or maybe the HTAT precise hit

Hi. I'm a newbee on this forum, but I would love to see the Karl Gerät 040 in the game. This would be really awsome! Perhaps as an ultimate weapon for the last command points rewarded....

Last edited April 26, 2010 at 5:36 PM by ales1988

German Officer

Ideas:

1:The Ostheer officer could be an upgrade to units so they get another squad member. Only one squad can have an officer at the same time.

2:The officer could give the squad new abilities, new stats and turn them into a command unit.

3:A tank can also get an upgrade to a command tank. Similar point no. 1 and 2.

4:Artillery pieces can also get an artillery commander that increases their accuracy, range and things like that. Also similar to point 1 and 2.

What will yourOfficer be armed with?
@Ales seems good, a little big, but not too big ya know?

This is an idea I had for a unit that I posted in Wordsmith's Ostheer Concept page. It could be adapted to work for a variety of different faction setups, depending on how the final concepts for the faction shape up.

Myself wrote:
I must say, overall I think the concept is great. However, I think that some of the units, the infantry in particular, seem rather generic. I have a suggestion of my own to make that may perhaps give more of a unique and individual feel to the faction.

I really like the idea of the 'reserve squad' but I think what I am proposing is a more evolved concept of it. Late in the war, Germany began using 'Volkssturm' troops, which means 'The people's storm' or something like that. I think this would be much more feasible than Hitler Youth conscripts, and they were much more widely used. The Volkssturm troops were mostly conscripts drawn from citizens that had been considered too young or too old to be conscripted before, of course with the impending defeat that changed things. Their basic function would be essentially as you outline for the reserve troops, but I think you can also go another step.

One thing that sometimes annoys me with company of heroes in general is that so many units use the same weapons, even if that is historically accurate, however it's cool to see some unique weapons that were still used on a wide enough scale to be believable in the game.

For the Volkssturm Squad, I think it would be interesting if they came with the MP-3008, a variant of the MP-40 redesigned to be manufactured cheaper for use among the Volkssturm. In gameplay terms it would function almost identically to the MP-40, but I believe it would add individuality and uniqueness to the unit while still maintaining historical accuracy and realism. As an upgrade option, I think the VG 1-5 would be appropriate. The VG 1-5 was a variant of the STG 44 intended specifically for the Volkssturm and redesigned to be manufactured more cheaply. In gameplay terms, it would be similar to the STG(MP)-44 except that it would be semi-automatic instead of automatic. The squad could, balance permitting, have the option to fire a panzerfaust at a nominal munition cost.

I believe that this would be much more interesting than the generic 'reserve squad' and realistic and fun.

MP-3008 Reference Page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_3008

VG 1-5 Reference Page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5

Volkssturm Squad Visual Reference: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/volkssturm/ib_vs_img1.jpg

Volkstturm Poster: http://www.german-helmets.com/SAURLAND/poster-volkssturm-bw.jpg

EDIT: Alternatively, I came up with another possibility for the loadout and abilities of the Volkssturm Squad. The default Volkssturm Squad would have the MP-3008 as described, but then where it goes from there varies depending on whether you have built the Specialist Training Facility or the Emergency Supply Yard.

If you have built the Emergency supply yard, then the Volkssturm Squad can fire a panzerfaust, free of munitions, which would be balanced by a longer cooldown time perhaps. In the hypothetical adoption of this concept, the Volkssturm Squad could only fire the panzerfaust if you have the Emergency Supply Yard.

If you have built the Specialist Training Facility, then the Volkssturm squad does not have the ability to fire the panzerfaust period, and comes equipped with the VG 1-5 or alternatively has the ability to upgrade to the VG 1-5, as well as the ability to throw a grenade at a nominal munition cost.

Now that I think about it more, these ideas do fit the overall theme of this concept, which is the war in 'stages' so to speak. My concept for the unit is less of a 'cheap unit to spam' and more of a moderately effective unit that is very useful for those low on resources, and hence those who probably have less territory and are losing.

I will elaborate. With the emergency supply yard variant, the squad is going to be more of an anti-vehicle squad than an anti infantry. Since the panzerfaust uses are free, this encourages the use of the unit when the player has little to no access to munitions. This is counterbalanced by the fact that their is a relatively longer cooldown time compared to say the panzerfaust of the Volksgrenadier, and the fact that the panzerfaust is only marginally effective against armor compared to the panzershreck. Thus when the player is doing poorly/has few territories, they would be more likely to use this unit which actually reflects the historical employment of these soldiers, but when they are doing well they would be better off to spend the resources on troops that they can purchase panzershrecks for.

The same is true for the Specialist Training Facility variant, but in a slightly different sense. If they come equipped with the VG 1-5, they will be a decent anti-infantry squad. However, compared to a true STG 44, it is not nearly as effective since the VG 1-5 only has a semi-automatic firing mode. Therefore if the player has the resources to spend on troops that can have STG 44's purchased for them, then they would be better off doing so. However, in the opposite case, since the Volkssturm squad costs only manpower, I would presume, that the cost of the lessened effectiveness would be worth the trade-off due to the fact that you do not have to expend munitions to get the VG 1-5.

This unit would be able to help the Ostheer player stabilize his line and regain his footing against swarms of cheap Soviet infantry or vehicles until more territories can be acquired and more powerful units purchased. Not to mention the fact that since this is not a tier 1 unit, that I do not think it would be particularly unbalancing.

I have some other ideas floating around in my head to improve the overall idea of this particular concept for the Ostheer faction, and would be glad to share them if you are interested.

Olorin....Good Work

+1 for Volkssturm Squad with Mp-3008 and  VG-1-5.

nice background!

i think it is a sound idea, but you have to consider that volkssturm wasnt deployed early war.
AND many volkssturm men (and boys) were slaugthered by experienced allied troops
they were considered to be practically useless...

I am aware they were not used until the Soviets had entirely pushed the Germans out of Russia, but it seems that one of the generally accepted ideas for the Ostheer is that they should reflect how the war changed from the Germans initially pressing deep into Soviet territory, to the stalemate, and their eventual continual losses.

The idea for the Volkssturm is that they would be an option into the latter part. While what you say is true to some degree, it is not representative of the Volkssturm as a whole.

Indeed, many of them were actually World War 1 veterans, whose experience would serve them well...

The quality of the troops varied, but it follows a kind of scheme. The Volkssturm were classified into four different levies.

Levy 1 was the classification for troops that had been raised some weeks in advance, and had been given a degree of training. These troops were intended to brought along on campaigns.

The troops I have outlined would be Levy 1. The ones you seem to be referring to would be levy 3 or 4.

Yet despite them being 'slaughtered in droves' as you put it, the Soviets consistently suffered greater casualties than would be expected.

There are a few key things that separate them from the soviet conscripts.
1. Experience(taking into account world war 1 veterans, who while didn't make up the bulk of these troops, it's enough to take into consideration.
2. Generally better equipment(Unless you are talking about the very, very end like March/April 1945)
3. Consequences for losing - They probably would just be murdered by the Soviet troops if they were captured, and it's worth saying that the Soviets were generally more merciful towards the Volkssturm than regular uniformed men. Their homes would be looted and pillaged, and their wives and daughters raped.

I don't say this to be picking on the Russians either, as point #3 was true for the Soviet Troops in the initial stage of the war, but by the time the Volkssturm come into play this would be reversed.

Of course as with all irregular troops, quality is varied. Some would surrender at the mere sound of the approach of the enemy, others would fight down to the last man. The ones I have suggested for an appearance in the Ostheer would be somewhere inbetween, more leaning towards the latter.

Last edited April 28, 2010 at 3:36 PM by Olorin

although your points are valid (soviets suffered casualties vs the Volkssturm and the Volks were well equipped) sending old chaps(60 years) and boys (16 years) vs the Us Tanks and the soviet armys was a useless idea. It was a desperate attempt to turn the course of the war. The brother of my uncle was forced into the volkssturm in 1945. He was 16 at that time. on their march (no trucks availible) to the front all his Zug (large squad) and his seasoned sergeant (a ww1 veteran, as you mentioned) was killed by US aircrafts strafing them. Took him 3 weeks to get home....But you are right in some cases Volkssturm defended positions longer than expected

Pauly3 wrote:
It was a desperate attempt to turn the course of the war.

There you go! Now you're catching on. This is precisely what one of the doctrines, or last tier of the faction should represent, should the idea that the Ostheer along with the soviets should progress in a roughly chronological manner.

Even in Relic's faction, the Panzer Elite, you see Scorched Earth Tactics represented as a doctrine, but for the time frame that is covering it wasn't really that great of a choice, and it is the worst doctrine of any faction, in my opinion.

Anyway, that was the general idea, that they would represent the later stage and a desperate attempt to hold the line. Although I would disagree with you that "it was useless to send them against tanks" there were surpluses of panzerfausts, to the degree that men would sometimes be given one instead of a rifle, and indeed, I forget the specific unit but one unit had staved off a Soviet Armored division in the siege of Berlin. Given the circumstances, that's pretty impressive.

And as interesting as your anecdote is, I don't see how it is really relevant at all. Unsupported infantry, regardless of quality, will be mowed down by strafing runs.

I had some further ideas for the actual implementation of the unit, but that goes beyond the scope of the unit in context of combat.

Last edited April 29, 2010 at 1:02 PM by Olorin

ok i can accept Volkssturm as a last ditch effort. Late game.
But you shouldnt equip them all with VGs (wasnt used that much) and Scorched earth with PE can be the BEST doctrine ever if  used correctly

Germans also used to send boys on bicycles equipped with panzerfausts to go up against Russian tanks. It worked, but only to a certain degree.

Not as bad as Americans strapping bombs to Bats O.o

that was brilliant!!!!! they actually stole the idea from Ghengis Khan. Khan told a town that he would spare them if they gave him all their cats and birds, so they did. However, once they got the cats and birds, the Mongols tied cotton to all the cats and birds, and lit the cotton on fire. The cats and birds, scared to death, ran back to their owners homes, thus setting the town ablaze!!!!!!!!

You mean something like this?:


Actually it's only a half joke because this model is included in Axis units in Worldbuilder :)

How'd he reload?

What if the Ostheer had a unit that was comprised of dogs??? like German shepherds. They could be commanded by a dog trainer guy and could root out enemies that were in camo.

Also, you could make it to where the could attack infantry for a short period of time.

yeah late game i think you should be able to build panzerfaust guy for 50 manpower. He has 2 panzerfausts AND THATS IT. once he fires both, he retreats to HQ and runs away.

comrade2012 wrote:
What if the Ostheer had a unit that was comprised of dogs??? like German shepherds. They could be commanded by a dog trainer guy and could root out enemies that were in camo.

Also, you could make it to where the could attack infantry for a short period of time.

dogs are hard to animate.

Hard is an understatement...

You know what...I had forgotten that...there is one thought that crossed my mind though...
If the donkey has got animations...we could just use them to make some Cossack cavalry(on horses not donkeys of course lol)  :P

On donkeys? We'll, we could reskin them to look like... Shetland Ponies or something.

Nah, we could model a horse and rig the same animations from the donkey...in theory...though that means they'll trot rather than galop but it could still look cool...possibly

1- Take donkey.

2- Put Russian Guard on it with PPSH.

3- Give it tank shock.

4- ???

5- SOVIET CAVALRY UNITS!

Saavedra wrote:
1- Take donkey.

2- Put Russian Guard on it with PPSH.

3- Give it tank shock.

4- ???

5- SOVIET CAVALRY UNITS!

Im from Poland. In 1939 we had more horses in the army than Germans. Cavalry units had the best officers in the army.

Still allmost no unit was fighting while mounted on a horse.
As I remember there were only 3 cavalry charges in september 1939.

But an officer on a horse could be included.

This gives me so many ideas for mods!! :o

To bad i can't mod :(

yea, we could have officers on horses!!!! They would be faster, and that's what we need in COH.

Or we could have transport horses. Moving streaky or guards from place to place. Constricts should be driving the horses, since allot of them were countrymen and lived on farms.

Well. An Officer on horse? Think that would be a better unit for russian cavalry then "general german officer corps" because most of the german officers were vain and drove by car over the battlefield  ;D

Paciat wrote:

Saavedra wrote:
1- Take donkey.

2- Put Russian Guard on it with PPSH.

3- Give it tank shock.

4- ???

5- SOVIET CAVALRY UNITS!

Im from Poland. In 1939 we had more horses in the army than Germans. Cavalry units had the best officers in the army.

Still allmost no unit was fighting while mounted on a horse.
As I remember there were only 3 cavalry charges in september 1939.

But an officer on a horse could be included.

Who was talking Polish cavalry? And do you really want to perpetuate the "Polish cavalry charging German tanks" myth?

I was talking about Russian cavalry units. During the Uranus operation, Russian cavalry was used because they could keep up with tanks when the Russians still lacked motorized transports for their infantry.

Myth? it wasnt myth but reality... ;)

quite a myth ! polish cav got on infantry, after the war, german did gooood propaganda ... tomorrow i ll give precise data

eh, Polish army during septemeber '39 had a lot of cavalry,but it wasn't used in frontal assaults against german armour - everyone who imagines romantic charge with swords and lances against steel beasts must know, that our ary was using horses mainly as mean of transport - comparing with western countries, in poland wasn't so much good roads, so the best and most useful way to make soliders mobile was horse. That was logical and practical. Also this "cavalry" was realy mounted infantry, who after arriving was fighting by foot - also artilery and guns were transported by horse.

Maybe as a call-in?

I had an idea, for a German Cossack Division (1st Cossack Division) that could ride in on horses and was a very fast capturing unit that had high moving accuracy but wasn't very powerful. It was a call in for the my Breaching Dogma in my first suggestion for the Ost. Maybe if we could create an animation rifle fire off that donkey and then reskin it to look like a Bashkir pony it could be a workable idea.

neosdark wrote:
I had an idea, for a German Cossack Division (1st Cossack Division) that could ride in on horses and was a very fast capturing unit that had high moving accuracy but wasn't very powerful. It was a call in for the my Breaching Dogma in my first suggestion for the Ost. Maybe if we could create an animation rifle fire off that donkey and then reskin it to look like a Bashkir pony it could be a workable idea.

Th problem with mounted calvary is that they wouldnt take cover like infantry so they would be easy to kill.

so they should have dismount ability :D horses should be only used as transport "vehicle", very fast but fragile - after dismounting troops shoot,shoot, kill, mount and travel to another location-quick and cheap

cephalos wrote:
so they should have dismount ability :D horses should be only used as transport "vehicle", very fast but fragile - after dismounting troops shoot,shoot, kill, mount and travel to another location-quick and cheap

I wouldnt pay even 100MP for a transport like that.

Horses dont listen to orders.
You wont be able to move them when you dismount.
When 1 horse dies, how will you move the whole cavalry squad? 1 man will be left behind.

Paciat, if horses didnt listen to orders how would u explain the near 2000 years of cavalry warfare. Horses scare easily but good riders could "convince" their horses to obey. If they were dismounted they would go graze.

My idea is that they don't need to get off. They wouldn't need cover because they act like Shock Units. Tanks don't get cover do they? Why should cavalry. They act as an intermediary between infantry and light vehicles. So they get the best (and worst) of both worlds.

They are fast, have good moving accuracy, have a high LOS, can't cover but have an ability similar to tank shock. They capture fast, but are easy to kill as they capture and aren't as powerful as late game infantry but are good scouts early out in the game. If u ask me this would be a very fair description for a cavalry unit.

neosdark wrote:
Paciat, if horses didnt listen to orders how would u explain the near 2000 years of cavalry warfare. Horses scare easily but good riders could "convince" their horses to obey. If they were dismounted they would go graze.

My idea is that they don't need to get off. They wouldn't need cover because they act like Shock Units. Tanks don't get cover do they? Why should cavalry. They act as an intermediary between infantry and light vehicles. So they get the best (and worst) of both worlds.

They are fast, have good moving accuracy, have a high LOS, can't cover but have an ability similar to tank shock. They capture fast, but are easy to kill as they capture and aren't as powerful as late game infantry but are good scouts early out in the game. If u ask me this would be a very fair description for a cavalry unit.

Try to "convince" a horse thru a radio. :D

All cavalry dimsounted before fighting just like motorized infantry that dismouned from trucks. Youre description of a WWII cavalry unit is bad.

1 man mounted units (scout, oficer) sounds nice but a whole 4-6men cavalry squad riding thru a MG arc of fire or horses getting suppressed sounds dumb. MG that kills a whole squad in 2 secs is not like COH.

but it is in RL when theres no cover.
And doesn't everyone agrue that this game calls for realism?