Locked topic · 338 posts

ostheer medium tanks

Ostheer Suggestions

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 4, 2010 at 8:28 AM

My guess is that is exactly what they're going to do. I'm curious as to what what the doctrines are going to be. I'm hoping that its not going to be the basic three "armor, mobility, defense". In their capable hands though I'm sure it will be cool one way or the other.

I think, therefore I am...
I learn, therefore I advance...
I destroy, that I may endure.

#46279

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 4, 2010 at 10:36 AM

The vCoH doctrines are quite regimented, so you go Infantry, don't expect Armour call ins. If you go Armour, don't expect Infantry call ins. If you go Scorched Earth, don't expect to be making daisy chains. If you go Terror, don't expect muffins... that sort of thing.
Obviously the Ostheer is wip so stuff is subject to change, but the doctrines will mix things up more, it's not black and white 'Infantry, Air, Armour, Defensive, etc'.

/off topic

Back on track :P

Smells like. Victory.

#46295

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 4, 2010 at 12:25 PM

Nice to hear, Burro! :)

Back to the MTB-discussion:

When I said that StuG III shouldn't be part of the Ostheer, I took into account, that the StuG IV is already part of the WH.
In the WH-faction, it's neither a really powerfull tankdestroyer nore a great MTB.
Therefore, it would be very, very stupid and disappointing to see a StuG III, which is more powerfull than its successor.

Following this idea, the StuG III for OH would be nearly the same as the StuG IV. (Otherwise, it would not make any sence at all.)
Now, I thought that a fully upgraded PzKpfW. III Ausf. J (that's the one we saw on the WIP-screens), will fit exactly into the role vCoH gave to the StuG: Early tank-support which can be devastating in groups of 3 or more vehicles.

You see where I'm going? PzIII and StuGIII would fulfill the same role in OH, at least in CoH's terms.

However, I can still imagine seeing a Sturmgeschütz in the Ostheer. But not as buildable unit. It can be a doctrinal combined arms call-in, similiar to the soviet tankriders. The StuG was originally designed as an infantry-support-gun for assault purposes, thus it would make sence. Instead of infantry using the tank as transporter, the tank should be like an additional "armour" for the infantry-soldiers.
An ability, which enables the infantry to "lock upon" the StuG, like CW's Lt., that's what I thought about. Once the inf is "locked" to the tank, the StuG moves slower but functions like a massive wall to hold bullets and other dangers off the following soldiers.

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

Last edited September 4, 2010 at 12:57 PM by Aouch

#46736

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 7, 2010 at 8:58 PM

Aouch wrote:
Back to the MTB-discussion:

When I said that StuG III shouldn't be part of the Ostheer, I took into account, that the StuG IV is already part of the WH.
In the WH-faction, it's neither a really powerfull tankdestroyer nore a great MTB.
Therefore, it would be very, very stupid and disappointing to see a StuG III, which is more powerfull than its successor.

Stug3 and Stug4 were not really much different in means of armour, firepower(depends on ausf) and speed. So you could basically use the same stats but give the stug3 some nice abilities like camo and let's say it uses better ammunition

there you got your tank destroyer without beeing unrealistic

#46760

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 1:48 AM

Historically the Pz3 came earlier than the StuG3.
You're assuming here than the Pz3 is an early Pz4, which it
isn't. The Pz3 has 50mm and the StuG3 has 75mm.

Fully completed Pz3 were even recalled from combat to
be converted to StuG3's. Aye. Give it better ammo, and
camouflage. Make it an upgrade to the Pz3, and problem
solved. Perhaps for 100 ammo?

If Pz3 comes earlier, it can't very well be Panther Strenght,
now, can it?

Who is with me on this idea?

The Pz3 to StuG3 conversion helps the Pz3 not
becoming overly obsolete as technology evolves onwards.

Post Merge: [time]1283953060[/time]

Shermans convert from 75mm to 76mm...
Why should Pz3 50mm to Stu3 75mm be an idiotic
upgrade?

You know, there are many people in the country today who, through no fault of their own, are sane. Some of them were born sane. Some of them became sane later in their lives. It is up to people like you and me who are out of our tiny little minds to try and help these people overcome their sanity

Last edited September 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM by Loupblanc

#46785

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 2:47 PM

I agree Loupblanc , the StuG IV was a result of the Germans losing ground in the war, adding the Stug III as an upgrade to the PzIII seems good, maybe from the HQ as a global upgrade.

Molly: " It's our rock garden"
Dwight: "What are you farming, Bullcrap?"

You Are a Rebel Spy and a traitor to the Empire!
~Darth Vader

Any typos found may be given to Seeme.

#46798

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 5:30 PM

In my opinion, a PzIII->StuGIII-upgrade makes no sense.
The Sturmgeschütz was original designed to give the fast advancing troops artillery-support. So they put a 75mm cannon on the chassis of a PzIII. Because artillery don't need a turret, the StuG hadn't one, thus was cheaper to produce than PzIII.
However, later in the war, the StuG proved itself also as very usefull tankdestroyer, because of its flat design. It could also carry the long 75mm KwK, again due to the fact it hadn't a turret.

Of course some PzIII were converted to a StuG, but most of them were just build as one and came out-of-factory as an assault gun.

Also, it should be still possible to build PzKpfW. III in late-game, a thing which will be impossible when globaly upgraded. A single upgrade for every produced Panzer would be dumb, since it's not a simple cannon-change as with the Sherman, but a complex re-design.

So, after all the best would be to have PzII Ausf. L as early tank and late-game recon vehicle (as shown in the teasers), PzIII (Ausf. J) as MBT (as shown in the teasers), which is weaker than T34 but has either camouflage-ability like the PaK38 with bonus for the first shot or some kind of tank-zeal.
Upgrades are Panzerschürzen and upgrade to Ausf. N (as shown in the teasers), which adds the short 7.5cm Stubbygun, gains better AI-capability and loses the armour-penetration.
Additionally, a tankdestroyer, perhaps Marder II or Nashorn.
Depending on the doctrine you choose, you'll gain access to on out of three Panzer-call-in-abilities, either Panther, Elefant (already seen a sreen of it) or a StuGIII with infantry (+ ability to "lock behind the tank").

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

Last edited September 8, 2010 at 5:34 PM by Aouch

#46819

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 7:57 PM

It makes no sense to "upgrade" the panzer III to Stug III. Should be vice versa.

Why not replace the Panzer III with the Panzer IV as an doctrinal ability? Could be included in the tank doctrine where the elephant is.
Panzer IV would be produced out of factory as a Ausf. H (model) with 50 Mun. cost for upgrading with sideskirts (raises HP).

Has the ability to use the "Panzergranate 40" for 20 sec.
to deal with soviet tanks better. The ability costs 50 mun also.

#46820

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 8:04 PM

It's in reply to Aouch which says that StuG3 isn't needed,
because Pz3 fills that role. Same way Pz5 and Stug4 aren't
needed, because Pz4 fills that role, hm?

Well, StuG were #1 killer of T34's I believe, and the
StuG3 is the natural (and successful) evolution of the
Pz3, as war wore on. Ok, fine. You're right in that not
all Pz3 should just insta-pop as StuG3. I know no more
were built at that point (Native Pz3). How about this :
Unlock which makes all new Pz3 come out as StuG3
(No new Pz3 are buildable), and can convert existing
Pz3 to StuG3 for, say, 75 munitions?)(50?)

That way, you get a fast, early Pz3 for a chance for
a quick knockout win, and if it fails, switch 'em to
StuG3 for defensive warfare?

Give them camouflage and first strike. Similar to Hetzer.

I like the idea of StuG3 being used as an infantry wall.
Actually, I think everyone should be capable of doing that :p
But would fit very nice with OstHeer, especially.

Make it an unlock for all ostheer tanks to be capable
of that? And make infantry associated with said tank
to be immune from MG suppresion? (From a direction?.
Can that be done?)

--
Killer : It makes no sense to upgrade the Pz3 50mm to
a StuG3 ? You're right. We should be able to upgrade
Pz4 to Puma :) Yup. StuG3 is a lot more effective
against Soviets than Pz3. Better armor, 50% larger gun.
Reloads faster, etc.

StuG3 had a very large place in the war and in the kill
ratio. Plus, it's where all the Pz3 went. If you go Pz4/Pz5,
why not go Wehr?

- I don't think people want to lose their Elefant in exchange
for a 'Put wehr unit in Ostheer faction' :)

#46824

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 8:40 PM

@Loupblanc

Yeah but this solution allows you to have the Panzer IV in the ostheer too. The PIV was the main battle tank at the eastern front, not Panther or tiger.

I didn´t said to disclaim elephant for the panzerIV :o
the replacement for PIII should be in the same doctrine!

#46825

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 8:47 PM

When I said that a StuG III isn't needed, I meant it isn't needed as the MBT of the Ostheer.
I want it, too. But as doctrinal call-in.

Also, I ehm, would hate an upgrade like you all suggested. Why should the DEVs put so much work in a new model which is immediatly switched out in 10 minutes with an old acquaintance, the StuG?
Just because it was tank-killer #1, doesn't mean anything. I think engine-breakdowns where #1 mission-killers for Tigers etc.
And US for sure knocked more axis tanks by close-air-support than tankdestroyers. How often do you see that ingame? ;)

And most Pz3 didn't went to StuG3 but total destruction by 1943/'44.

EDIT: I hope they don't add the Pz4. Would be very very boring. It's already part of PE and WH. Plus it solves no real porpuse, the DEVs can make the Pz3 be nearly as effective on the battlefield as the Pz4.
Than again, Panthers are also part of those factions, but you can't make a Pz3 as strong as a Panther. ;)

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

Last edited September 8, 2010 at 8:50 PM by Aouch

#46826

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 8:53 PM

Right, when you can switch to a better tank, why using panzerIII anyway?

#46827

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM

Because it's cheaper and perhaps solves an other porpuse?

Anyway, look. Panzer 3 and StuG 3 should be two total different units, tacticwise.
Pz3 can be used as a large group of tanks hunting down by far better tanks thanks to it's availability in great numbers.
A classic tank.
StuG3 should be an infantry-support-gun. For assault. JUST like its name. And maybe as tankdestroyer.
But not in groups etc.
Not a classic tank, but an assault gun.

Also, why should anyone choose the Hotchkiss as reward unit instead of the Pz4? The German tank is "normally" better than the French, isn't it? Still there are people who tends to use it above the Stubby...

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

#46829

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 10:17 PM

QuoteAnyway, look. Panzer 3 and StuG 3 should be two total different units, tacticwise.
Pz3 can be used as a large group of tanks hunting down by far better tanks thanks to it's availability in great numbers.
A classic tank.
StuG3 should be an infantry-support-gun. For assault. JUST like its name. And maybe as tankdestroyer.
But not in groups etc.
Not a classic tank, but an assault gun.

couldn't say it better ;)

BurroDiablo wrote:
Jagd[tiger] is a buildable replacement for the Kettenkrad... It can cloak and cap points. :P

#46830

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 8, 2010 at 10:37 PM

- Ok, I agreed about the USA Sherman-style
turn all Pz3 into StuG3 conversion. Which is why I
proposed a munitions-based voluntary conversion.

Fine, Stug3 looks like Stug4, but so does Pz3 look like Pz4
a lot. I've read at lenght on the internet about the Pz3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III
In the past few days.

Once upon a time...
Pz3 tank killer. Pz4 infantry support.
Then ... Roles reversed
Pz3 Infantry Support. Pz4 Tank killer.
(Which is where the N version comes in)
The StuG3 was a tank destroyer conversion.

By the end of the war the Pz.III had almost no frontline use and many exemplars had been returned to the factories for conversion into turretless assault guns StuG, which were in high demand due to the defensive warfare style adopted by the German Army by then.

The Panzer III chassis was the basis for the Sturmgeschütz III assault gun, one of the most successful self-propelled guns of the war, and the single most-produced German armored fighting vehicle design of World War II.

To meet the growing need to counter these tanks, the Panzer III was upgunned with a longer, more powerful 50-millimetre (1.97 in) cannon and received more armour although this failed to effectively address the problem caused by the KV tank designs. As a result, production of self-propelled guns, as well as the upgunning of the Panzer IV was initiated.

It was intended to fight other armoured fighting vehicles and serve alongside the infantry-supporting Panzer IV. However, as the Germans faced the formidable T-34, stronger anti-tank guns were needed. Since the Panzer IV had a bigger turret ring, the role was reversed.

----
I propose this :
Make the Pz3 into a puma (ie: I'm not saying put a Puma
instead. I'm saying give it role of Puma - which it has)
As an early MBT, it will need a considerable upgrade
as tech moves along. This is what StuG3 and J, L and N
versions are for. Plus it's historical.

You disagree with that, might as well put Pz4 and Stg4.
And give up on OH, and make it Wehr 1.5.

StuG3 was used more defensively, as the fortunes of
war turned for the germans. Plus it packed a hell more
of a punch.

Early Pz3, then shift on to StuG3. At least this way,
they're not wasted and to be thrown away.

Anyone with me on this?

Post Merge: [time]1283985709[/time]

Addendum :
StuG4 is an early quasi Panzer4. Cheaper, with less
capabilities. Pz3 to StuG3 is a radically different tank :
- More armor.
- Upgrades from 37mm to 50mm to 75mm!
- More AP capabilities.
- Can annoy IS2 where Pz3 is - totally - outclassed.

It's to the Pz3 what the Sherman 76 is to the Sherman 75.

Pretty much all the surviving Pz3's were converted to StuG3.
And, it was the most numerous german of WW2.

Shouldn't that count for something?

Post Merge: [time]1283985869[/time]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgesch%C3%BCtz_III

The Sturmgeschütz III (StuG III) assault gun was Germany's most produced armoured fighting vehicle during World War II. It was built on the chassis of the proven Panzer III tank. Initially intended as a mobile, armoured light gun for infantry support, the StuG was continually modified and was widely employed as a tank destroyer.

: Tank destroyer.
: Infantry support.
: MOST PRODUCED AFV of germans during WW2.

What you are saying is like taking away the American's
Sherman, for #$($*($!#

Post Merge: [time]1283986214[/time]

As the StuG III was designed to fill an infantry close support combat role, early models were fitted with a low-velocity 75 mm StuK 37 L/24 gun to destroy soft-skin targets and fortifications. After the Germans encountered the Soviet KV-1 and T-34 tanks, the StuG III was equipped with a high-velocity 75 mm StuK 40 L/43 main gun (Spring 1942) and later – the 75 mm StuK 40 L/48 (Autumn 1942) anti-tank gun. These versions were known as the Sturmgeschütz 40 Ausführung F, Ausf. F/8 and Ausf. G.

: 1942. So by default it's the tank destroyer role.

Overall, Sturmgeschütz series assault guns proved very successful and served on all fronts as assault guns and tank destroyers. Although Tigers and Panthers have earned a greater notoriety, assault guns collectively destroyed more tanks. Because of their low silhouette, StuG IIIs were easy to camouflage and a difficult target. Sturmgeschütz crews were considered to be the elite of the artillery units. Sturmgeschütz units held a very impressive record of tank kills – some 20,000 enemy tanks by the spring of 1944.[2]

It's fascinating read, really. I suggest it to all :)

- Most numerous tank.
- Most numerous kills.

Pz3 should be convertable to StuG3.
StuG3 should be buildable.

Case closed.

Post Merge: [time]1283986546[/time]

Bombing raids on Alkett factory resulted in significant drops in StuG III production in November 1943. To make up for the loss of production, Krupp displayed a substitution StuG on Panzer IV chassis to Hitler on 16–17 December 1943. From January 1944, the StuG IV, based on the Panzer IV chassis and with a slightly modified StuG III superstructure entered production.

Just an interesting tidbit :)

Last edited September 8, 2010 at 10:55 PM by Loupblanc

#46853

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 3:05 AM

@Loupblanc
+1 to your ideas :D!!! I wonder what the devs have planned for the ostheer...

Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

#46855

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 3:11 AM

Thank you :)

- Well, yea. Although OstHeer may have a quick ideology
at first, you got to think of the endgame. Pz3 aren't of the
same caliber as the Shermans, T34's, so unless you want
them to vanish completely from the battlefield early
(And completely forego the German's *MOST NUMEROUS
TANK OF THE WAR*)...

Eh ;)

Mind you, I think Soviet veterancy system needs
an overhaul... I suggested a hero system a way back... ;)

#46856

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 3:29 AM

I have nothing to do with the ostheer design, even when they discuss stuff I just "watch" silent... because I think that's not my field... I don't think they change the soviet vet, but I'd like to read your concept if you mind :).

Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

#46859

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 5:02 AM

- Dang it :)
- The soviet hero system was similar to the british
officer system. Except of having dedicated officers,
though, you have one guy who managed to rise above
his peers, and thus inspire them. It's like brit officer,
but using selfish xp (Like USA vet) but who radiates
vet for others (like British officer). Soviets can't have
more than 1 vet (themselves). But the first one (the
hero) gives out a +1 vet aura (Thus 2).

For there to be a 2nd hero, the 1st one has to die?

Maybe a little extra bonus, too. For example, a tank
hero would get a commander (like british tanks) with +
range.

The current soviet system has :
Selfish xp/vet : Like USA.
Officer xp/vet : Like british (commander squad)
(Which is very very hard to level)
And Armory Vet: Like Wehr.

Why nothing special and unique?

I like the weak vet/hero system, myself.
It's a touch up the old 'Soviets get no vet', throws in
something unique, and yet isn't a copy of the 3 vet
system everyone else uses.

Thoughts?

I got a more developped thesis on it somewhere.

#46877

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 3:50 PM

Armory isn't part of vet of the soviets, because it just gathers the upgrades that could be scattered in the buildings each unit is produced. It doesn't provide any vet, just upgrade the unit(s).

It's like saying that the rifles have this vet system:

Selfish xp/vet.
Barracks upgrade.

Similar, but the soviets can upgrade most of their units unlike US.

Sorry for being off-topic.

Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

#46880

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 4:36 PM

@ Ghost: Thanks, at least one person who understand what I meant. ;)

@ Loupblanc: Wow. :o Much text.

However, I guess we can't do a compromise. You want late powerfull StuG III which replaces early Pz III.

I want early Pz III with an ability to fight against late tanks. (Not necessarily 1on1!) And I want StuG III alongside the Pz III. Not as replacement. Plus it should only be slightly more powerfull than a Vet2/3 StuG IV.
Otherwise it would look very dumb, when a WH StuG IV loses when a OH StuG III wins. ;D

To the discussion: PzKpfW. III Ausf. J (those what we'll get, I guess there won't be any 3.7cm version, if even one with the short 5cm KwK L/42) is as powerfull as a Sherman with 75mm gun.
Don't forget that Ostheer will not fight exclusivly against the Red Army. After all, we shouldn't make suggestions only based on OH vs. USSR.
Also, PzIII isn't actually needed to fight head on head against T-34. There are other units, too. (On both sides ;) )
You can for exampe win easily against CW with a T1-T3 + vetted StuGs, though they aren't really powerfull. You don't need a Panther to win. So I think you can also win with OH and Pz III. Without a StuG III. :D

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

Last edited September 9, 2010 at 4:45 PM by Aouch

#46883

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 5:19 PM

Aouch wrote:
I want early Pz III with an ability to fight against late tanks.
Also, PzIII isn't actually needed to fight head on head against T-34. There are other units, too. (On both sides ;) )
You can for exampe win easily against CW with a T1-T3 + vetted StuGs, though they aren't really powerfull. You don't need a Panther to win. So I think you can also win with OH and Pz III. Without a StuG III. :D

Panzer 3s were used Tungsten cored AP shells, to fight with the T34s, I think it would be researchable upgrade for the tank. And plus the bigger gun and armored skirts they can match up with shermans as well. The early Pz3 would be like the Hotchkiss tank, but in late game they can upgrade with rmour a firepower to match the Pz4. On head-on-head it wouldn't beat a T34 in front of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten_carbide

#46894

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 7:01 PM

- Hmm. Yea, I know. Much text. I used to do that a lot,
then I cooled down on that aspect ;) ... till now.
- I'm sorry, I didn't mean total absolute replacement
(Like Sherman 75 to Sherman 76). But it's a fact that
historically, most Pz3 ended up as N type, or Pz3 (*THE*
most numerous german tank of the war).

! Oh, I didn't mean StuG3 ought to be better than StuG4.
About the same is about right. StuG4 can annoy Russian
tanks. Puma can't (50mm).

I - think - I'll agree not to go with 37mm Pz3's.
That was - way - too early in the war.

But I don't think Pz3's were running around in groups
when IS2 showed up. Explain to me why Germans should
have access to more tanks than the Russians would?
(More of them on the field).

: I'm going for something that justifies
1) Early Pz3 that are quite weaker than Sherman/T34.
If it's equal, it's non historical. If it's weaker, it has to be
earlier, or else there is no point to it.
2) Putting StuG3 in the field. With the place it deserves.
IT IS the MOST numerous german tank of WW2. Quantify
this with removing the Sherman from the American arsenal.

: You are suggesting something akin to this :
(I'll exagerrate, to better underline the message)
- Swarms of 5-10 Pumas that run amok on the field
before the first Sherman can come out, yet, who can
rape Pershings and IS2's in groups.

------

I'm fine with :
- Early Pz3.
- Jack of all trade early one (akin Sherman 75)
- Obsolete against Sherman/T34.
- Subsequent upgrades : N, J to coincide
with first level (Sherman 75/T34-76)
- StuG3 to deal with higher levels (StuG4 level)
(Not saying it's going to to be OP. Saying original
Pz3 needs to be a Puma.) StuG3 needs to be
buildable. No more Pz3 can be built once you go
higher (Panthers, buildable Stug3). Original ones
can be converted on an on-case basis.

StuG3 costs 20% less than Panzer3. (Real life)
How about making Pz3 costs prohibitive compared to
StuG3's effectiveness?

I want a reason to go for early Pz3, yet, not make a
swarm of them, yet must be weaker than T34-76/S75,
yet upgrades bring them on-par (With something
prohibitive).

Ok, you mentionned tungsten rounds? Historical.
Thus, I'm for it. Insanely rare, though. 50 munitions
per use. As per american AT gun. And this would
only make it - adequate -
(Sherman 75 adequate, not AT gun adequate)

----

You with me on this, so far?

- StuG3 is by far the most numerous tank of the war
on German side. It needs it's time in the spotlight :)
(StuG4 stats, with Camouflage/first strike capability
sounds nice).

Post Merge: [time]1284060339[/time]

Ok, just went to walk the dog.
Rephrasing.

You want an early Pz3 at the cost of being weaker.
Between Puma and StuG4. With subsequent upgrades,
it gets to stick around to the end, at the cost of forever
being slightly weaker. To offset this, make it more numerous.
With StuG3 being a non-buildable call-in. (Perhaps tree-
oriented).

- And you want the tungsten round upgrade to be
permanent - similar to Sherman 76mm upgrade.

Did I get it right?

- Why should Osteer have more tanks than Russians with
T34's? If anything, it should be soviets who can call-in
swarms of T34's (Dual T34's like PE's dual panthers).
- Why should Pz3 should be more numerous than StuG3?
It wasn't. Production of StuG3 was superior. And numerous
Pz3 were converted to StuG3. Heck, some variants were
re-converted into StuG3's.
- Tunsten is expensive. Rare. Insanely so. Even for the
Americans (Read some stories about how they were
limited to M10's, TDs and Tank crews developped a black
market trading Tungsten AP rounds off the M10s and unto
the Shermans. Interesting stuff. Needs a munition cost.

J and N variants exist and are historical. I'm fine with that.
But they're not enough to deal with later mediums. Unless
Tunsten - with a muni cost -

But I'll be nice and concede a point ;)
- N variant also used emergency AP ammo ;)
(Although I insist it's non-emergency ammo shouldn't
dent the paint of tanks) : ie : PE Panzer4 IS tank.

I think Pz3 should exist. Yes. Puma early? Yes.
Swarmable? No. Upgradeable? Yes. Tunsgten? With ammo
cost. StuG3 *AS* an upgrade. On-case. And buildable
as StuG3 fresh from factory. With camo first strike.

We basically agree.

Except you think Pz3 should be more numerous than T34.
And That Pz3 should be more numerous than StuG3.

Last edited September 9, 2010 at 7:25 PM by Loupblanc

#46898

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 8:07 PM

hmmmm, how about the upgrade eg. Pz3 tanks, I got an idea. If OH have a similar Tier upgrade to WE, then the wehicles will upgrde automaticly, when the players enter from T1 to T2 for example. It's simple, not copy/paste as the WE/Russian type, but have to cost. Shows a little different.
+1 for Loupblanc, he's typing happy, but explains so much, that is actually interesting reading it. ;)

#46902

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 9:36 PM

Mhhh Loup, you explain your points very well.
I agree that PzIII Ausf. J (that's the one we'll likely see in OH) should be as good as Sherman 75cm (with the long L/60 KwK it could penetrate T34/76 front armor till 500m!). That's a (historical) fact.
I also agree that it should come sometime in between Puma and StuG IV (both are T3).
Not too early! Early tank is in my opinion Pz II "Luchs". So its main enemies are Shermans and T34/76 (which it can win against, if used probably!)
It should be upgradeable with Panzerschürze + ability to shot Wolfram-munition (tungsten, of course expensive but effective).
I don't know if you agree, but it should also have some kind of "tank-zeal" to encourage a usage in groups. ???
Speaking of groups: I didn't meant 15-20. I was talking about max. 4. It's even hard to micromanagement 3 pumas, thus PzIII won't be very different in that point. Don't forget it had around the same speed as PzIV, so don't expect a car-race or something similar. No PzIII speeding over the battlefield like the Cromwell.

Furthermore I agree that StuG III should be in the OH. Plus it's being an assault-gun and "tank-destroyer". I'm fine with ambush-ability and its having better anti-armor-capacity than PzIII.

However, the points in which I don't agree with you:

StuG III shouldn't be an upgrade.

It should be an additional unit. What's so bad about it? Sure, it wasn't used much after 1944, but hell, do you expected Hotchkiss in 1944? I doubt so. But it's still in the game.

Pz III (Ausf. J) should still be buildable when you can build StuG III. If you don't like it, don't build it. But perhaps there are some people who would love to build that tank, even if they are able to build StuG III. What's so bad about it? ???

CoH doesn't set the damage or penetration made by a gun with real world aspects. So a Pz III gun mustn't be as underpowered as a Puma's gun.

Pz III (Ausf. J) were equal to Sherman 75.

StuG III shouldn't be cheaper than Pz III. CoH has its prices set in regards how useful/strong a thing is. Not how expensive it was IRL. :)

I never said that Pz III were more numerous than T-34 or Sherman. However, first of all again this isn't a perimeter in CoH-universe and second if a German Panzerdivision meets a douzen enemy tanks, in that moment, they were more tanks. ;)
To solve this problem, I suggest a pop of 6 or 7. T-34 has 7pop, StuGIV 4pop and Hotchkiss 6pop, so I guess it's OK. With that limit you can build a "normal" army with a few Pz3 and other units or have your panzer-division. :D
Which wouldn't work in CoH anyway.

Even Hotchkiss can potentially rape Pershing, IS-152 and IS-2. If someone is so dumb to let such a thing drive around without support, nearly everything can rape it with the right amount of units.

However, after all, it's not our decision but the DEVs one. I hope they find something which can make us all happy and is fun to play with (or against).

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

Last edited September 9, 2010 at 9:51 PM by Aouch

#46903

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 9:37 PM

Thank you, I try. It's all translated from french, too.
My primary dialect of choice ;)

Hmm, now, I didn't understand exactly what you meant...
Automatic upgrade once Tech up?

As in (For example) If pop early 37mm (an example) Pz3
from T2, just by making T4 building, it'll become a Pz3J ?

Care to explain some?? I don't think I understand.

Of course, it'd be nice to make all unique and different.
I'm for that, too :) But they all need a few things in
common. Like tech progression. Like no Heavy Tanks
while other is still bringing out first engineers/pioneers.

We know OstHeer will :
Have Pz3, Pz2, and StuG3, and Elefant.
Perhaps Pz4, Pz5 Panther, Pz6 Tiger. And Wespe.

Should have a Marder wannabe, too.

Thing is, I don't know where the Pz2 fits into all that.
Perhaps do the Puma/StuG choice? (T3, though).
(But with Pz2/Pz3) With StuG3 replacing the Pz4 (T4).
(In the order of things).

StuG4 is a quasi earlier form of Pz4 (In Wehr)
While it's other way around in OH, with StuG3 being
the superior form of the Pz3.

If Pz3 is the Puma, then what is the Pz2 ?

Thoughts on how to accomplish this?
(I like the Pz2/Pz3 vs StuG4/Puma choice. Maybe late T2?)

#46904

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 10:06 PM

I think PzII will have some special ability. However, in regards of combat-performance, it could be like Puma 2cm KwK, like the not upgunned Puma. Armor could be similiar.
So yes, late T2 till early T3 could be possible. :)
While PzIII (depending on what version, maybe we'll see 5cm L/42 as factory-standard and upgun to either 7.5cm L/24 or 5cm L/60?) early till mid T3. (Everything seen as "normal" WH, since we don't even know how many buildings OH has.)

I would assume that Pz III is similiar to Vet0/Vet1 StuG IV, while StuG III could be a Pz IV/Geschützwagen-mixup.

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

#46905

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 10:19 PM

@ Aouch :
- I agree that Pz3J/L60 should be in game. SHALL be in
game. If it is equivalent to Sherman 75, then it shouldn't
come earlier. Which kills the whole originality of the concept.
Plus you agreed that it was equivalent - WITH - the EXPENS
IVE tungsten shots. :
: I say Pz3J shouldn't be the native form. Should be
an upgrade. I also say you ought to PAY each time you
DARE to use tungsten shots to make it a surprise match
to a Sherman 75.
- Pz3 should come between Puma and StuG4. Then we
are in agreement on this one. I was thinking Pz2/Pz3
taking StuG4/Puma slots and StuG3 having Pz4 slot.
(Figuratively speaking). Not in it's can-kill-Sherman75
form, though. (J/N shouldn't be native)(Especially
not if Pz2 are running around)(Time frame, yknow)

- Pz3 having tank-zeal in groups. It encourages spam/
blobbing, which if anyone should have, then T34's would.
Pz3 had radios though, T34s didn't, usually. Fine, I'll let
this one slide, if they're nerfed further, and grouping
them is what makes them decent. Give me a minus, I'll
concede a plus. Balance, yknow.
(T34s should have this more, though)

- Tank speed. No Pz3 speeding all over. Hey, I agree.
I'll even put one in. Give 'em british infantry rules. So
that early Pz3 doesn't turn out unbalanced. I like this
very much :) Have the tank-zeal equivalent improve
on this. I like it :) (Slower in enemy territory when alone)
Every forever wants buffs, buffs, buffs. Nerfs give
character. Think about it. It's even an argument for
making Pz3 early. Thus, they don't win the game in the
first minutes of the game, too.

- I'm glad to see we agree about the StuG3's capabilities :)
That's always refreshing to hear ;)

- Don't agree StuG3 should be an upgrade of the Pz3.
Pz4 were viable on their own. Pz3 eventually were not
viable. Then they were massively converted to something
else. Which turned out to be *THE MOST NUMEROUS*
German tank. It fit historically, and it fits the early Pz3.

... You just want an early super Greyhound that
kills tigers, with rare Sherman 75's... (I'm using an
analogy here). Who are more numerous than T34's and
Shermans, too... strenght doesn't fit, three pros don't
have character, and time frame doesn't fit. Plus Pz3
being more numerous than StuG3 doesn't fit either.

- PE Hotchkiss exists for the Stuka upgrade. Personally,
I think it's way too fast for it's real life counterpart.
Plus it's a 37mm for %#!(*'s sake. Hotchkiss should be
slower, and it's gun should fire slower (2 man crew,
remember?) and it's stuka ammo cost should be lower.
(Thank you EF for that one)(Completely agree!)
(I still think Soviets should have native dual T34 call-in
akin to PE's dual Panther call-in)(Native meaning by
default, not dependant on tree).

- Stug3 *IS* an upgrade of the Pz3. AND it should be
buildable as such on it's own. It's historical, and it fits.
It's WAY more numerous than Pz3. I agree that StuG3
shouldn't be available before Pz3, though. I know they
stopped Pz3 production before StuG3s, though. STuG3
are more effective AND they're cheaper.

It's like you're saying Pz4 shouldn't exist, or barely,
and that Pumas should be spammable and take out
Pershings. Yes, me and my analogies.

How would you say if they decided to remove all
Panthers, Tigers and Pz4 from German army?
StuG3 is the #1 most numerous WW2 german tank.
Accept it.

- Hmm, about costs and strenghts...
Pz3 historically came first, and was more expensive.
StuG3 was more numerous, cheaper and effective. It
also came later. The Pz3 also needs upgrades to bring
it up to par (J/N shouldn't be native), and tungsten
ammo is expensive. Hmmm. Ok, then permit continued
production of Pz3, but make StuG3 more attractive?
Required Tungsten shots should help people make that
decision. I'm thinking it as an expensive way to make
those still around worthwhile, but still prefer to go
StuG3. As... historically happenned.

On topic of Pz3 costs, it's coming out early is a part
of it's cost/balance. Later on, making it's price less
attractive once StuG3 is available.

I still think conversion of Pz3 to StuG3 should be an
option. It's historical. It's an upgrade. It fits.
Pz4 to StuG4 is a downgrade, so no point to it.

- IS2/ISU152 raping by hotchkiss... so wrong... so wrong.
But they're expensive little fuckers. Because COH_Reliq
likes weird units shouldn't mean we got to do same ;)
It was brought about because PE needed an excuse to
have artillery (ie: Stuka). Yet not as good as Wehr
version, and yet different unit (which explains the
overblown cost)(Because PE's strenghts are supposed
to be elsewhere).

Mind you, they're quasi T4.

What I'm saying, is you can't make a unit earlier than,
more numerous than, and equivalent/better than T34's.
all in one.

StuG3 is more numerous than Pz3. It's historical.
Explain to me why you want super Greyhounds and to
quasi delete shermans? (Yes, me with my analogies).

Post Merge: [time]1284043215[/time]

Aouch wrote:
I think PzII will have some special ability. However, in regards of combat-performance, it could be like Puma 2cm KwK, like the not upgunned Puma. Armor could be similiar.

- Pz2 : Ok we agree that Pz2 is/should be the Puma.
20mm+MG and no 50mm upgrade. Puma with no 50mm
upgrade capability is a con. Give it a different pro to
keep it around in end-game. Radio/Scout? Funkwagen
radar/Territory disruption? I like it.

So yes, late T2 till early T3 could be possible. :)

- Pz3 : Late T2/early T3. Ok, we agree.

While PzIII (depending on what version, maybe we'll see 5cm L/42 as factory-standard and upgun to either 7.5cm L/24 or 5cm L/60?) early till mid T3. (Everything seen as "normal" WH, since we don't even know how many buildings OH has.)

- Pz3 : Native is short 50mm or short 37mm (Pref short 50m)
Upgradeable to J long 50, or N short 75mm. Pz3 doesn't
carry 75mm in turret.

The Ausf. A to early Ausf. F were equipped with a 3.7 cm KwK 36 L/46.5 which proved adequate during the campaigns of 1939 and 1940 but the later Ausf. F to Ausf. J were upgraded with the 5 cm KwK 38 L/42 and the Ausf. J¹ to M with the longer 5 cm KwK 39 L/60 cannon in response to increasingly better armed and armoured opponents.

Ok for 50/L42 native, upgrade to J 50/60. AT upgrade.

The Panzer III remained in production as a close support vehicle. The Ausf. N model mounted a low-velocity 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24 cannon - the same used by the early Panzer IV Ausf. A to Ausf. F models.

Ok. I was wrong. upgrade to N 75/24. AI upgrade.
: As for OH buildings. that's easy. HQ + 3 or 4 extras,
like all other factions (Xcept for British). OH is geared
for earlier game, so HQ+2 or HQ+3. Skip ultra late.

I would assume that Pz III is similiar to Vet0/Vet1 StuG IV, while StuG III could be a Pz IV/Geschützwagen-mixup.

- Here is where you are wrong. Although, no, we just
phrase it differently.

Vet0/1 StuG4 is helpless against infantry. While Pz4
can do all that a StuG can do, and more.

Pz3 should be a weaker, earlier Pz4 that you need to
upgrade to make it equivalent in one, but not both ways
(AT or AI) Pz4 can do both - at same time.

StuG3 is totally and absolutely anti-tank. With camo/
first strike capability. We agree here.

Pz3N was kept around for AI role. Historical. And also
because StuG3 sucks against infantry.

Pz3J shouldn't be equivalent to StuG3 AND be decent
against infantry (All those extra MGs, yknow). It should
rather be a way to keep the Pz3 you've already built
sorta competitive, but not quite. (And expensively so)
Making the StuG3 the better choice (No expensive
tungsten rounds as required obligation).

- And I agree we don't make the choices, the DEVs do.
Can only hope I can forward my arguments well enough
that they'll side with me, same as you.

I'm not so good at that. English isn't my main language,
and a penchant for balance, good playing, history and
uncompromised passion are my forte ;)
I just can't phrase it right. :p

Post Merge: [time]1284043626[/time]

With the appearance of the T-34 and KV tanks, rearming the Panzer III with a longer, more powerful 50-millimetre (1.97 in) cannon was prioritised. The T-34 was generally invulnerable in frontal engagements with the Panzer III until the 50 mm KwK 39 L/60 gun was introduced on the Panzer III Ausf. J¹ in the spring of 1942. This could penetrate the T-34 frontally at ranges under 500 metres (1,600 ft).[3] Against the KV tanks it was a threat if armed with special high velocity tungsten rounds. In addition, to counter antitank rifles, in 1943 the Ausf. L version began the use of spaced armour skirts (schürzen) around the turret and on the hull sides. However, due to the introduction of the upgunned and uparmoured Panzer IV, the Panzer III was, after the Battle of Kursk, relegated to secondary roles, and it was replaced as the main German medium tank by the Panzer IV and the Panther.
By the end of the war the Pz.III had almost no frontline use and many exemplars had been returned to the factories for conversion into turretless assault guns StuG, which were in high demand due to the defensive warfare style adopted by the German Army by then.

:

- Pz3 earlier than T34.
- Short 50, not 37.
- Native Pz3 sucks against T34/76.
- Upgrade 50 long, short 75. EXPENSIVE Tungsten.
- Upgrade 50 long LOSES out against StuG3 as AT.
- Pz3 50 LONG were sent to be converted to StuG3.
- StuG3 ARE conversions AND built from scratch as such.
- StuG3 is most numerous tank in German army WW2.
- StuG3 killed 20,000 T34s. (Tank killer).
- T34 more numerous than StuG3.
- StuG3 more numerous than Pz3.
- You're not going to make Pz3 more numerous than T34.

Last edited September 9, 2010 at 10:48 PM by Loupblanc

#46906

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 10:48 PM

Sorry, I think I said it a bit too complicated. To make things clear:
Pz III (Ausf. J) being on par with Sherman 75. So it has to come in about the same time. When Sherman 76 is upgraded, you have sideskirts and Wolframkern-munition. Both individual and expensive (because you have to buy Tungsten every time you use it).
If there is a Pz III Ausf. H with the L/42 cannon, then it should come earlier.
Everything clear so far? :)

I like your suggestion how to nerf and at the same time buff Pz III with a "british-style"-tankzeal. So a single tank won't be an enemy for allies (just like in real war, since you seem to like realism). However, in groups it's by far better.
VERY NICE SUGGESTION! Should make it into the game!

StuG III of course better than Pz III, so we're the same opinion here. Ambush etc. is a fine suggestion. Together with my suggested "infantry-use-assault-gun-as-cover"-suggestion ( ;D) its use ingame would also differ from Pz3's one.
However, I still want to be able to have Pz3 and Stug3 at the same time. :-[
How about this: You can build StuG III after some upgrade (or new building, don't know). It's a bit expensiver than Pz III (since it's better, damn ;)).

Now, a new vehicle comes in the game: A Bergepanzer III. You can recover PzIII-wrecks with it. Then it rebuilds the destructed Pz III into a StuG III. How about this?
Additionally, you could perhaps be able to construct intact Pz III into StuG III within a certain area around the Bergepanzer. Of course, this conversion will cost some muni.

What do you think about this suggestion?

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

#46907

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 10:54 PM

@Loupblanc
Oh man... this is very interesting indeed...

Sound good your pz3->Stug3 transition. You can be sure that Luchs will be on the ostheer(remember about Dragon' teasing ;)).

Of course, for the sake of balance you can make a pz3 beats advanced tanks, but Germany has the Stug 3 to offer, and no faction has used it yet. IMO if japan was the faction designed, of course you'll make the Chi-ha the MBT and strong as a sherman due the lack of tanks, but the ostheer doesn't need this.

Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

#46908

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 10:57 PM

Loupblanc wrote:
- Pz3 earlier than T34. ✔
- Short 50, not 37. ✔
- Native Pz3 sucks against T34/76. ✔ or better say, not really suck, but be rather inefficient
- Upgrade 50 long, short 75. EXPENSIVE Tungsten. ✔
- Upgrade 50 long LOSES out against StuG3 as AT. ✔ of course
- Pz3 50 LONG were sent to be converted to StuG3. ?
- StuG3 ARE conversions AND built from scratch as such. See my suggestion
- StuG3 is most numerous tank in German army WW2. ✔
- StuG3 killed 20,000 T34s. (Tank killer). ✔
- T34 more numerous than StuG3. ✔
- StuG3 more numerous than Pz3. ✔
- You're not going to make Pz3 more numerous than T34. ? If someone feels like building 4 Pz3, why not? I mean, if I play soviet, I mustn't build T-34 but instead IS-2, altough the first one was by far more common.

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

#46911

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 11:03 PM

@Aouch
I like your idea about the "zombie" stug 3 :D, but i don't know if devs have considered to add "recovery vehicle" ability...

Quote - Pz3 50 LONG were sent to be converted to StuG3. ?

He said that all the pIII that you choose to upgrade as AT, would be given the chance to be converted to StugIII.

I think Pz.III shouldn't match later tiers tanks.

Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

#46912

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 9, 2010 at 11:04 PM

blackbishop wrote:
Of course, for the sake of balance you can make a pz3 beats advanced tanks, but Germany has the Stug 3 to offer, and no faction has used it yet. IMO if japan was the faction designed, of course you'll make the Chi-ha the MBT and strong as a sherman due the lack of tanks, but the ostheer doesn't need this.

The PzKpfW. III Ausf. J (correct me, but that's the one from the teasers) was as good as the Sherman. IRL. Therefore your Japan-example makes sence if PzIII would be as good as T-34/85 (what it wasn't) or Pershing. But if it could kill a early T-34, why not show this ingame?
StuG III should be for heavier tanks or to to destroy Shermans etc. without the high possibility that it kills your Panzer (assuming you're sending a PzIII 1on1 vs Sherman)

Post Merge: [time]1284073706[/time]

blackbishop wrote:
@Aouch
I like your idea about the "zombie" stug 3 :D, but i don't know if devs have considered to add "recovery vehicle" ability...

Thanks. ;D
You actually liked one of my ideas. :)
The Bergepanzer should only be able to recover PzIII's and rebuild them. That should be the only possible vehicle it's able to recover. Therefore it won't really take away from PE's Bergetiger, since it has no use for other factions or even other vehicles.
However, it's of course still be able to repair other vehicles. To compensate for that, make normal Pios have a slow repair-rate, so you'd be "forced" to build it.

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

Last edited September 9, 2010 at 11:08 PM by Aouch

#46923

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 10, 2010 at 12:59 AM

- If Pz3J is equiv to Sherman 75, it shouldn't come earlier. Duh :)
- Tungsten to deal with S76/T85. Well, skirts don't help against tanks, but the added frontal armor upgrade does.
I wanted 50ammo cost to make it on par with S75, but
you want onpar with S76. I say 75ammo per shot?
- Tunsten is expensive, individual, pay each time use it :
Ooh we agree! :)
- Pz3H/42 earlier. Oh yea, In agreement. I found better
equiv. Stuart :)
(Earlier than Cromwell, yet a Greyhound/Puma killer).
: Yup, is clear. Only thing we disagree on is slight strenght-against S75/s76//T76/T85 strenght. I'd bring it down a tiny
notch. A detail.

- Yea, Operation Barbarossa, early Pz3 can be a game killer due to no AT on other side. Slow tank in enemy territory
and needing to function in groups to remove this curse is
a nerf that can be the con to give the pro of early Pz3.
Glad we agree on this ;) Here is where we disagree. You
want a buff, where I want a curse, and a curse removal.
Not a buff.

- StuG3 is better than Pz3 against Tanks.
Not against infantry. Ambush, etc, is actually a nerf-to-
give-a-buff. Makes the tank dangerous without making it 'roaming tank army blob category'. It's more defensive.
: Infantry-use-assault gun-as-cover. I like it.
Use British officer follow tag-on, or PE munition truck
follow tag-on mechanics. Gives quasi immunity to incoming
MG fire, but functions as hold fire or 1/2 firing rate. (More
if they're on the move)(Moving already gives a debuff).
Con to give a pro.

I think Pz3 should be able to do this, as well. Not jsut StuG3.
German doctrine is protect infantry with tanks.Where Soviets
protected Tanks with infantry.

- Of course you can have Pz3 and StuG3 at same time.
They don't do same job.
- Ok, we agree Pz3 (native not upped) should be buildable
BEFORE StuG3. Good.
- Yup. StuG3 should be buildable.
- Nope. StuG3 is LESS expensive than Pz3. Give it big cons, too. 0+1 mg instead of 2+1 mg (Like Stug4/Pz4). I think of
StuG3 as more of a Marder3. Serious flaws, cheap, but deadly
against tanks. Numerous, too. Not as good as a Marder,
because it has armor, but give it lockdown and Camouflage,
and you've got an M10 in Sherman armor with less mobility.
: I'll agree with same cost, if the necessary muni-per-shot makes Pz3 ultimately the more expensive choice. Not to
mention the J/N upgrade from native H.

BergerPanzer3 : Nice. I like how it'd rebuilds destroyed Pz3 into StuG3's :) Slight detail, PE has BergerTiger because 1)
It's their default crush AT traps vehicle. And because PE
doesn't have medic bunkers, so they got vehicle 'medic'
bunkers (for vehicles, not infantry). Can you really have both ? I'm totally for anything that encourages switching all or
MOST Pz3's into StuG3's though ;)

Normally, I'd agree with the Pz3 to StuG3 conversion next to Berger3, but PE Pz4AI, Sherman75, Greyhound, etc, can all
upgrade without help away from home (But they got to be
within territory). Heck, I'd make it so can only upgrade next
to HQ if it was left to me (Blitzkrieg mod is like this). But
got to stay within context, here. Of course, I like. But I'd
have to say Berger3 isn't necessary for upgrade. Salvage,
though, is nice. (Russians should be able to do this too, but,
bleh) ;)

@ Black :
Yea Pz3H - Pz3J/N - StuG3
as the Grehound - Sherman 75 - Sherman 76 progress ;)

@aouch:
Native Pz3 sucks against T34/76. ✔ or better say, not really suck, but be rather inefficient (Like Stuart against a Pz4) :)
We're talking Pz3H 50 short, here.
: StuG3
- Preexisting Pz3's should be convertible to StuG3 like Puma20 to Puma50.
Not like Sherman 75 to Sherman 76. So all Pz3 won't go
poof ;)
- StuG3 is native, non-doctrine, buildable tank that old Pz3 CAN be made into.
: Pz3 should not be more numerous than T34. / re: Why not? If soviet, go IS2 skip T34/76. Fine. My bad, but making lots
of T34s should be easier than making lots of Pz3.
I didn't mean that you are incapable of making additional Pz3s unless opponent makes
T34s (Fluid cap limit), but that T34s should be cheaper and easier to blob than Pz3s, not the other way around.
: While we're on the topic, I think Pz3s AND StuG3s should have 8 pop. Not 6, not 4.

@ Blackbishop :
Eh. I meant all and any Pz3 would be given a chance to be converted to StuG3. H to stug3. And J to Stug3. And N to StuG3. Aye. I don't think Pz3 should match later tiers tanks by default, even when upgraded. StuG3 should be able to match later tanks but with limitations (Little AI capability,
and perhaps needing to be locked down)

@ Aouch :
Pz3J is as good as Sherman75. Not 76. Needs tungsten to deal with 76/T34-85. But there's a small detail, here. Both those tanks had decent anti infantry capability. The 50mm long vs 76mm/85mm should be completely neutered against
infantry. Give it AT gun vs infantry stats. You're only talking anti tank here. You got to look at the broader picture.

You're talking Pz3 eats greyhound, Pz3J eats Sherman76, StuG3 eats Pershing. *AND* is more numerous than their counterparts (Shermans/T34s).

I'm talking P3 gets earlier advantage, but doesn't
compete later on, unless you use expensive ammo-per-shot tungsten. P3 that shouldn't out-spam T34/Sherman/M10. I'm talking about StuG3 that are average (Think Stug4)(But more
expensive) and that have to be used more defensively to
rape decisively (Camouflage/first strike/lockdown) But
without needing tungsten shots. Making it more similar to
a Marder, but with armor.

- On the topic of Berger3. 2x speed repairs? Same as PE Berger :)
Pro : Cheaper than PE Berger.
Con : Can only salvage P3's into StuG3
Con : Not a heavy crusher.
Con : More fragile.

I like it. I like anything that doesn't say buff, buff, buff.
Plus, it's an argument for not making Pz3 'cheap' :) It'll cost
about the same thing as a Sherman, just you can buy one earlier.
And it won't be as good down the line. (Although still a MBT).

Define 'slow' repair-rate? I'd prefer to say 'normal repair-rate'.

#46939

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 10, 2010 at 10:27 AM

Loupblanc wrote:
Hmm, now, I didn't understand exactly what you meant...
Automatic upgrade once Tech up?

As in (For example) If pop early 37mm (an example) Pz3
from T2, just by making T4 building, it'll become a Pz3J ?

Care to explain some?? I don't think I understand.

Of course, it'd be nice to make all unique and different.
I'm for that, too :) But they all need a few things in
common. Like tech progression. Like no Heavy Tanks
while other is still bringing out first engineers/pioneers.

In WE there is a reasearch to tech up Tiers in the HQ What I had in mind is this: staying in the wehrmacht style, in tier 2 you can build the Pz3 (with a building). If you tech to Tier3 the Pz3 will be upgrade with a bigger gun and/or armoured skirts or it would be researchable, like the the Panther Battlegroup in PE, so the 50 (75?) mm gun goes globaly to every pz3 tank on the field.

Wit Pz2 Lusch I can only imagine to early infantry support and firepower like the Puma, the first tank (like the Stuart) can eat it breakfast.

In the eastern front there was Rommel's Ghost Division, they got light tanks only, with elite crew, that would be some good start, looking what kind of use there was the Pz3 in the EF.

#46952

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 10, 2010 at 3:38 PM

- We've agreed the 37mm Pz3 was in wrong period.
So short 50mm Pz3 (H) ought to be default by 1942 (circa).
The long 50mm AT (J) Pz3 and the short 75mm AI (N) models
are mutually exclusive, so we can't do a global upgrade.

Also: 1) Pz3 comes out early. If you give it an easy
global upgrade that makes it competitive later on, and allows
to skip StuG3, that's exactly what people will do. Think USA
rifleman spam, then they suddenly all get BAR rifles...
2) Germany's economy wasn't doing well with all the
bombardements. Not all Pz3H-Pz3L/N conversions were
done all at the same time. Plus how do you justify
recalling 100% of your MBT while in the middle of the
war? ;)

No. Pz3 must have access to upgrades, yes, but
ultimately going StuG3 has to be the best decision.
(Way more StuG3 were made than there were Pz3)
(Most Pz3 were converted to StuG3)(Not all, but most)

I do like one of the things he's mentionned, though.
PE-style cumulative upgrades for the Pz3 through the
Ostheer buildings, with the ultimate being the StuG3
'upgrade' at which point it becomes buildable from
scratch as well as a conversion. If we use salveage,
then that can be thrown in too.

PE is about the continuous evolution of the PanzerGRen.
Ostheer can be about the evolution of the Pz3 as the MBT.
So it starts early, in a limited state (Like the PanzerGren)
(Not THAT early) with severely slowed speed to prevent
insta-win, fixed when they group with other tanks
(H, J, N, StuG) it all works. And despite what Aouch says,
The Pz3J/N isn't the final form of the Pz3. The StuG3 is.

- A Zeal-like ability which in groups, removes it's 1/2
speed while in enemy territory (alone). It REMOVES
a debuff, it doesn't provide a buff.
- The covers infantry can be one of those abilities.
- Salvage can be one of those abilities. (to StuG3)
- StuG3 camouflage/improved sights/AT (It's a Pz3)
- Improvements which make StuG3 cheaper to make.
- Tungsten shots (Expensive per use)

Which I suggest to be quasi identical to the StuG4,
except it has hetzer/marder3 abilities tagged on,
which are necessary and encourage a defensive/tricky
useage to make it deadly (like Pak38), so it's not a tank
to use to do breakthroughs and rapeage later on.
(You got other tanks for that - panthers? Tigers?)

***
As for the Pz2 lusch. We've agreed it would take on the
puma role. Except that Puma has a 50mm upgrade which
doesn't make it completely useless later on. Pz2 won't
have access to this upgrade. So, what will have it?

It's not a frontline tank. First Stuart rapes it.
So find it another use. Recon? Zone disruption?
I was suggesting giving it a role like the Funkenwagen.
Ressource disruption/recon. But with some armor, and
a 20mm gun/Mg.

#46953

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 10, 2010 at 4:16 PM

I think would be good idea, when you reach, lets say tier 3, add something like "raid" ability to Pz.II, IMO the funkwagen role should belong just to that unit.

Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

#46955

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 10, 2010 at 5:55 PM

'Raid' ability would encourage to spam Pz2. Pz2 shouldn't
be a 'combat' unit. Recon/harassment, perhaps. I like the
Funkwagen disrupt ressource/large radar capability. It's
very powerful when used properly.

If not, might as well give the Pz2 a 50mm AT gun
upgrade and call it a puma ;)

#46957

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 10, 2010 at 6:06 PM

IMO Luchs should have the same armor & health than PE armored car, if you spam Pz.IIs you'll be lacking on resources to keep your line or it's GG because you already destroyed everything he/she can throw you.

Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

#46969

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 10, 2010 at 8:33 PM

Im not quite convinced of transforming PzIII into Stug III. Ii see making them as different vechicles makes more sense to me. FOr example: make the Pz III available in T2 and the StuG III available in T3.

Use the same system that The Panzer Elite uses when making upgrades: Stugs and Pz"s have a "Group Zeal" like bonus and for example if you make a research that allows you PzIII to fire AP rounds so can the the StugIII.

The difference between the two is that I see The Stug more as a tank destroyer than a breaktrough tank and the PzIII is a multi-role tank, that is why is a MBT.

Just my thoughts

My Ostheer Concept Updated: August 26, 2010

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=4099.0

#46971

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 10, 2010 at 9:07 PM

So much text... :'( ;D

I think now everybody is happy.
We have Pz II "Luchs" early, later, sometime between Stuart and Sherman, the Pz III with short 5cm.
Later, after individual upgrade either Pz III with long 5cm or short 7.5cm , should be on the battlefield around the same time as Sherman 75.
Finally StuG III, which can be gained by 3 different ways: Builded, Upgraded Pz III (any gun) or salvaged Pz III (any gun) via Bergepanzer III.

PzII: AC-armor, slightly nerfed Puma 2cm KwK. Recon.
PzIII 5cm L/42: > light tanks, < "real" medium tanks. light AT, medium AI. MTB. Brit-style slow movement in enemy territory, ~ 3 tanks to have normal speed, > 4 tanks: Slightly buffed.
PzIII 5cm L/60: = Sherman 75. medium AT, light AI. MTB. Brit-style slow movement in enemy territory, ~ 3 tanks to have normal speed, > 4 tanks: Slightly buffed. Expensive Tungsten-mun to help against Sherman 76, T-34.
PzIII 7.5cm L/24: < PE PzIV. heavy AI. Brit-style slow movement in enemy territory, ~ 3 tanks to have normal speed, > 4 tanks: Slightly buffed.
StuG III: heavy AT, light AI. Assault-gun/Tankdestroyer. Ambush-ability, gives cover to following infantry.

Points I want to discuss about:
StuG III has ambush and infantry-cover (we'll call it this way, OK?). Pz III is nerfed in the beginning, thus no tank-rush. However, it gains normal values by using it in groups of tanks.
How about it additionally achieves a very lightly "buff" by even more tanks (4 tanks, no gigantic battlegroups ;)).
I think that's just fair, since it wouldn't be a "hey, now one single Panzer can kill IS-2"-ability but just something to show its usefulness in groups.
But it shouldn't get the infantry-cover. So a player has to decide between Panzer-warfare (very expensive in late-game!) or Combined-warfare.

What do you think?

Post Merge: [time]1284124177[/time]

@ Ryousan: I think we agreed in a similiar system, didn't we, Loup?

Basicly you can first build PzII. Later, you can additionally build PzIII. After that, you will be able to additionally build StuGIII. However, additionally you'll have the possibility to salvage PzIII-wrecks and get a StuG out of it. Or "upgrade" an existing PzIII to a StuG.

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

Last edited September 10, 2010 at 9:13 PM by Aouch

#46984

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 11, 2010 at 4:24 AM

@ Ryousan :
There is no purpose for a Pz4 to StuG4 conversion,
because there is nothing that the StuG4 offers which
the Pz4 doesn't already do.

The Pz3 to StuG3 conversion makes sense because :
- 50mm to 75mm LONG BARREL
- Better frontal armor
- There were 3x more StuG3 than Pz3 and they're
built on a Pz3 hull...

What you are suggesting, Ryousan, is akin to getting
rid of the Sherman tank, and making Greyhound tanks
strong enough to kill T34/85s.

It's historical.
Either get rid of the Pz3 and StuG3 altogether,
And put in StuG4, Pz4 and Panthers... (And Pumas and
Tigers and...)... but we want something different, yes?

Early Pz3 that culminates to StuG3 is the way.
What you guys propose is early Pz3 that sticks
around to 1945 and kicks IS2 butt.

Don't you see anything wrong with that?

Small note :
Pz3L60 gains some AT, but loses AI (AT gun vs inf
capability)(Miserable)
Pz3L24(75) gains considerable AI (Sherman 75 like)
but miserable AT. BUT IT CAN USE Tungsten rounds.
(Historical). Perhaps costlier, though, for them.

Post Merge: [time]1284180731[/time]

As for the Pz2, if you don't intend to make it different
from the Puma in some way...

... Why not put Puma instead?

Last edited September 11, 2010 at 4:52 AM by Loupblanc

#46990

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 11, 2010 at 12:48 PM

I don't know why you, Loup, criticize Ryousan's thought.
After all, I thought that's what we want?

T3 Pz3 which is able to upgrade to 5cm L/60 to be an effective MTB to fights against Sherman 75 and has sideskirts (in CoH, sideskirts improve the whole armor, not only help against anti-tank-rifles!) and tungsten-ammunition to fight against Sherman 76 and T-34.
T4 StuG3 as tankdestroyer and infantry-support-gun.

Of course, Pz3 is able to upgrade to StuG3.
But Pz3 can be still present when IS-2 is on the field. That's the whole point about a Pz3 as MTB, since StuG3 can't be a MTB. I've told you countless times, that Pz3 L/60 won't go 1on1 against a T-34/85 nore IS-2. But if an enemy don't use them, Pz3 are effective as a group.
If someone use them, you'll have to get StuG3 or you are likely to lose. :)

Post Merge: [time]1284214286[/time]

After thinking a while about it, I came to some conclusions:
First of all, we should stop thinking in the scheme: Allies act, OH reacts. An OH-player can also force his play-style on the enemy. ;)
Second, I now agree with Loup, that Stug3 should be a little bit cheaper than Pz3. (MP, not fuel, which should be around the same value.) Not only for realism-purpose but also for the sake of gameplay.
I'll explain it:

As OH-player, you have two possibilities how you do your tank-strategy.
First one is that you focus on a defensively Stug-tactic. Because Stug is cheaper than Pz3 but comes later, it would be dumb to produce a great amount of Pz3 and then upgrade them to L/60 and later to Stug3, which would cost too much resources. Therefore you rather build a few Pz3 L/42 to have at least some tanks. However, few tanks -> no early attack (remember slow movement in ET). Later, you build Stug3 and upgrade the existing Pz3. Because they cost less MP, you've enough left to recruit infantry to support you Stugs and allow to start a big attack. Focused on late victory.
Second strategy is to bump out a lot Pz3 L/42 to allow early charge on ET. Then upgrade to L/60 to give them a chance to fight against enemy early medium tanks. You have to focus on a mid-game victory, because fighting with Pz3 against enemy tanks in a later stage of the game will most likely cost you a lot of ammo (-> tungsten). Of course, you can still upgrade to Stug3, if you can't break through the enemy's frontline, but this will perhaps eat up the very last munition-resources you've got.

What do you think about this, Loup? :)

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

Last edited September 11, 2010 at 2:15 PM by Aouch

#47017

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 11, 2010 at 5:01 PM

- Why Ryousan's : Because he was against giving main
spot to the StuG3. What he was saying, essentially, is
that StuG3 shouldn't be important. Or convertable from
Pz3. That's what happenned historically. In huge numbers.

It's like saying he doesn't want USA to have Sherman,
but instead wants to buff Greyhounds to fight Panthers.

- I want Pz3 as early MBT, but inefficient to use
when T34s/Shermans hit the field. They're obsolete.
(Well the L42 certainly is) and tungsten rounds is not
a viable long term strategy (We agree on this)
Let's use comparables :

Stuart - Sherman75 - Sherman 76
Pz3L42- Pz3L60/L24 - Tungsten or StuG3

But it comes at a cost :
Pz3 don't only fight Tanks, they fight AT guns and infantry.
The Pz3L60 upgrade robs them of anti - infantry cannon
capability (Not as much as StuG upgrade, though)
The Pz3L24 upgrade robs them of anti - tank capability
(But they still have tunsten access, although it ought
to be more expensive for them to use it)
The StuG, well, the StuG should have every flaw that
the StuG4 has (0+1 MG)(Via vet)(Not 2+1 like Pz4)

The T34/85 is pure improvement over the T34/76.
The L60 and L24 come at a deeper cost (Because it's
not as much improvement as overspecialisation). See?
T34/Sherman are all-purpose.
As soon as it upgrades Pz3L42 loses all-purpose role
just to be able to keep up - against infantry or tanks.

- Thank you for agreeing that Stug3 ought to be a Pz3
conversion :) / By cheaper, I meant that buying StuG3
ought to be cheaper to make than a Pz3, especially
once you factor in L42 to L60(or 24) to stuG3 (That's 2
upgrades). Make a StuG3 from scratch and it's bound
to be cheaper ;) To balance out effectiveness, I was
thinking perhaps making it same cost?
- Detail : AT guns are cheap. Marder3 is cheap.
But very effective. The StuG3 I propose is basically a
Marder but with armor. And needing to be locked down
and have first strike to get Marder-like punch. It's not
a wunder-tank. Give it enough cons to justify this.

** Ok, essentially, what you are saying, is someone
doesn't need to upgrade to Sherman 76, or even T34/85
or even IS2. If he can win with just Puma/Greyhound/
T70/Stuart, then let it be. Oh, yea, completely agree.

I said StuG3 is the natural ultimate form of the Pz3.
I didn't say you HAVE to upgrade to StuG3 :)
(You have to go StuG3 to keep up with T34/85's)
(Without tungsten)

- Can we talk by MSN? Use up less paper :)
Add me : [email redacted]

I'd say we basically now agree on almost everything.
We just phrase it differently.

Post Merge: [time]1284224677[/time]

blackbishop wrote:
@Aouch
I like your idea about the "zombie" stug 3 :D, but i don't know if devs have considered to add "recovery vehicle" ability...

Quote - Pz3 50 LONG were sent to be converted to StuG3. ?

He said that all the pIII that you choose to upgrade as AT, would be given the chance to be converted to StugIII.

I think Pz.III shouldn't match later tiers tanks.

- -- -
He said it best :)
I don't think Pz.3 should match later tiers tanks.
Got StuG3 for that. And it's historical. Should they
be able to kill later tier tank? Sure, just not efficiently.
- I like the zombie stug a lot :)

Last edited September 11, 2010 at 5:04 PM by Loupblanc

#47056

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 11, 2010 at 11:46 PM

OK, I think both of us are fine now! ;)

Maybe Ryousan should clear up by himself what he meant. I'm also talking about Pz3 as MTB and Stug3 as tankdestroyer/assault-gun. Of course with MTB I mean "midgame-multiporpusetank-with-some-risks-when-sended-against-T-34-spam" (;D) and with tankdestroyer/assault-gun I mean "mid-lategame-great-to-deal-with-enemy-armour-tank"

Quote Stuart - Sherman75 - Sherman 76
Pz3L42- Pz3L60/L24 - Tungsten or StuG3

Yeah, that's we I meant. However, OH's tanks are better put in between those, I think:
Stuart < Pz3L42 < Sherman75 = Pz3L60 < Sherman76/T34-76 = Pz3L60+Tungsten < T-34/85 < Stug3

Tanks of the Ostheer differs very much from the existing concept which puts every tank more or less a counterpart. :)

Sadly I don't have MSN. We can use Forum-PN, which is of course a bit uncomfortably, but since it seems that we live in different time-zones it's probably easier.

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

#47097

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 12, 2010 at 2:06 PM

Well I was not against giving a main spot to the StugIII what I meant is that I was against in removing the main spot out of the PzIII.

I just dont like the "recovery" idea. Everybody complined when anyone proposed to include a recovery/advanced repair unit into the Ostheer because it would be "removing the uniqueness of the Panzer Elite" And because seems a little too specific: A repair tank that will be aimlessly wandering the battlefield, waiting for a PanzerIII to be cracked open for then to enter and into turn it into a much cooler vehicle?

Not buying it for two reasons:

It is an almost complete waste of resources for the almost the same price you can have another PzIII, another vehicle or even a StugIII (I dont know if you gave them any cost cost, but for balance reasons I belive it must somewhere near there).

Secondly, if recovering PzIII is the only thing that it does, sound a bit useless a in the practice and to make it a repair vehicle spells like Panzer Elite, And I think that is somewhere you are not desiring to go

Bergetiger is cool because is not unit specific, and can recover anything you or your allies can deploy. If BergePanzerIII is that specific, perhaps as doctrine unit but doesnt convince me for being buildable. I think I made my point...

Also I have my doubts about the "Upgrading into StugIII" system. But it seems solid enough for giving it a shot.

QuoteIt's like saying he doesn't want USA to have Sherman,
but instead wants to buff Greyhounds to fight Panthers.

From the very beginning, I agreed that there was no way a PzIII could take down a T-34 or whatever. And still as far a I know Panthers still beat the crap out of Shermans dont they :P?

I also agreed that to fill that gap in the Ostheer strategy, a good tank destroyer/assault gun should be included. StugIII is a great candidate for the job, it was an awesome vehicle, the pinnacle of "PzIII evolution".

I just dont agreee in some the ways you are including it, that is all 8)

My Ostheer Concept Updated: August 26, 2010

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=4099.0

#47113

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 12, 2010 at 4:42 PM

The Panzer IV was made for a reason, they needed to replace the obsolete Panzer III!
I agree that the Panzer III should be in the Ostheer but not as a main tank, more like a faster medium a bit below the main tanks of other factions(Sherman/T-34/Cromwell/Panzer IV)
Also a nice addition would be the Panzer II as an anti infantry tank, like the PE Armored Car/Puma!
If you need a TD the Stug III with the long barrel is a good choice by me!
Also the Panzer II Luchs could be a heavy scout!
The Panzer III/IV could be your mainstream tank equal to T-34/Sherman etc and if you need more tanks you could always go with the VKs(3001H,3601H,3001P,3002DB)either for a buildable or doctrines in which case would be nice to see some bigger VKs(4502 Ausf P1,4502 Ausf P2)or some tanks of the E-series and these ones would go great with a doctrine of prototype units, some sort of Experimental Doctrine!

PS: Panzer III should have the 5cm KwK 38 L/42 gun!

I never said i wanted the Ostheer to have the Panzer IV, i just said it's better than the Panzer III and it shouldn't be used as the main tank!And the VK's were just in case! ;D

Last edited September 12, 2010 at 5:07 PM by Cozmin95

#47114

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 12, 2010 at 4:46 PM

I agree with you, Ryousan. Bergepanzer III won't be present in every game you play.
But it could be usefull in different ways. First, for its "main purpose", turning destroyed Pz III into StuG III.
For example, if you mess up with an assault and most of your Panzers are lost, I think you will be happy if you can secure the sector with some remaining units (of course with high risks, since they would lack in other places in your frontline), drive your Bergepanzer into the cleared area, "produce" some StuGs and leave the sector with at least some help against enemy tanks.
Or you could send the Bergepz with your advancing tanks, to help them staying alive. The Bergepz has the same speed, so it can move around with them, where normal Pios couldn't (+ 2x repair-rate). Also, it has way more armor around it, unlike soldiers.

I think it could be a usefull vehicle, but you aren't forced to build it.

In fact, I think the whole Pz3->Stug3-story with its different ways how to actually do it on the battlefield is an interesting thing and could help keeping the OH new and fresh without stealing from existing ideas (OK, Bergetiger-Bergepanzer... ;)).

Post Merge: [time]1284281620[/time]

@ Cozmin: Come on, PzIV is already part of the other two axis-factions.
Don't you think it would be boring to see them again?
If you introduce PzIV into OH, it could easily go into the direction WH 1.5. And that's what we don't want. PzIII/StugIII is a completely different way how to implement tank-warfare into CoH. It has some flavor of British Cromwell/Firefly but it's outstanding. Unlike adding PzIV.

PzII will be part of the Ostheer. Ausf. L "Luchs" is the keyword.

Loup and I were talking about PzIII first having the L/42 and later moving on to L/60 to have something against Sherman75.
Also, PzIII wasn't faster as PzIV. I think actually it was a bit slower, since Ausf. J and later variants weights more than the original concept of the PzIII took into account.

Oh, and please go away with your VK-models. :)

In memoriam MrScruff
The Wehrmacht in the East

Obstheer FTW!

Last edited September 12, 2010 at 4:56 PM by Aouch

#47116

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 12, 2010 at 5:39 PM

Aouch wrote:
For example, if you mess up with an assault and most of your Panzers are lost, I think you will be happy if you can secure the sector with some remaining units (of course with high risks, since they would lack in other places in your frontline), drive your Bergepanzer into the cleared area, "produce" some StuGs and leave the sector with at least some help against enemy tanks.

Now that's nice. If you messed up an assault you don't need bergepanzer, but restart the match. And well experienced player will destroy the wrecks (talking about experience). PE BergeTiger is useful if the wrecks is close to you're base, or they in the base. Otherwise while the recovery whicle can't move it's sitting duck out there for any kind of AT. In that way you recall the bergetank or hoping to recover quick enoug to drive away with it. The Bergetiger worked once when I played with my mate, after that he knows the trick and destroyed all wrecks in sight.
After a messed up assault you're need some fighting units, not a recovery wehicle.

That's my point.

#47123

Re: ostheer medium tanks

September 12, 2010 at 7:03 PM

- I live at -5 Greenwich (New York time)
- My idea of the Pz3 is a 8 pop Stuart. Pretty much.
Except that it can cripple-specialize down the road
(Losing it's all purpose role). But it's STILL a stuart.
And will be chewed on by T34/Shermans.

When Aouch says Pz3L60+T = T34/85 he fails to
adress a point: It comes at a price : The loss of
AI capability (Should be AT gun versus infantry
level). Plus, needing to upgrade THEN to use tungsten
is innefficient. *BUT* This helps this 'Stuart' stay in
the game. A more efficient way is to go StuG3.
But this further hurts the anti infantry role. My
concept of the StuG3 is an 8 pop tank. More similar
to Hetzer (also 8 pop) and Marder3 (Also 8 pop)

I believe in following history as much as possible.
Otherwise, might as well put Klingon Battlecruisers and
BF2142 Walker Tanks on the battlefield.

StuG3 was *THE* most numerous German tank of WW2.
Would you remove the Sherman from USA faction?

Since we propose to give Pz3 to the Ostheer, I PROPOSE
to find ways to START with Pz3, then to end up/switch
to StuG3 in a huge way. Now, this is not necessary
(I don't make Shermans with all upgrades, all the time)

Not all, but most Pz3 were changed to StuG3 from 1943+

*ERROR* The Panzer4 was *NOT* built to replace the
Panzer3. The Panzer4 was made about same time as Pz3,
but had a different role. It replaced the Pz3 in the AT
/All purpose role because Panzer 3 couldn't do the job
anymore. Which is why I propose to make Panzer3
keeping up... inneficient. Did they throw away all Pz3's
once they made Pz4 long barrel? No. They converted to
StuG3.

- I'm just proposing a thousand ways to make Pz3
switch to StuG3 (You don't HAVE to, but the tools are
there)(Like you don't need to make USA riflemen to win)

** Pz3 short 50 is Early tank *Stuart*
That can hurt later tanks with upgrades - but not efficient.
** StuG3 is efficient.
- Is cheaper than P3L60+Tungsten.
- Can be converted, can be built. Salvaged Pz3
become StuG3. Non-doctrine. Is default, like Sherman 76
is not doctrine-specific.

It was most numerous tank of Germany in WW2.
Do you propose to make T34 doctrine-specific?

: : :

Yes, Panzer4 were used on East Front. Panthers, Tigers.
the best approach would be to take Wehrmacht, PE
and Ostheer and make *ONE* faction that can do it
all... then USA/Brits etc would want the same done to them
and, then we'd have to make use that KT can only
be used against Americans, and British/USA can't fight
on map when Soviet is present, and... ... no. Won't happen.

So we're building OstHeer with the idea of telling
the story of the Panzer3 and the StuG3 ... instead
of the Panzer4. Not making the Panzer3 as good as the
Panzer4, but telling a limited part of the story, while
keeping true to history.

**

On topic of salvage :
USA, Brits, Wehr have Medic/Salvage of Infantry.
So should Soviets, on a different level (Don't need
medics? But it's done automatically?)

Soviets had salvage, but it was removed.
PE Salvage *REPLACES* their infantry-salvage
capability. It's one or the other.

Will OstHeer have medic-salvage of infantry
(It'll be the 4th faction to have this)
Or shall we give them a vehicle salvage of tanks
(It'll be 2nd faction to have this). So your argument
of it being PE-specific doesn't work if you propose
to give it medics ;) Right?

The BergerPanzer could be 6 pop instead of 10.
And minus heavy crush.
Cheaper.
And all part of giving tools to 'have lots of StuG3's
(While still making Panzer3s). It's just an option.
Nothing more.

** If you think my StuG3 idea is OP :
: StuG3 is same thing as StuG4 ...
- All Pz3 can be made into StuG3.
- Maybe less health (It's a Stuart after all)
- 8 pop. Not 6. Not 4.
- 0+1 MG (Like StuG4)
- Mid-price between StuG4 and Pz4 (As Pz3)
+ Cheaper to make than to convert.
+ Marder ability comes at a price : Lockdown
Can camouflage and First Strike.
And not as strong as Marder. (Also a Pz3 hull
BTW. That's why it's a Marder... 3!). I'd balance the
AT punch of the Marder3 against the fact that
the StuG3 still has armor and has SOME AI capability.

**

Topic of the Pz2 Luch...
You people keep wanting to make it into a RIF
(Recon in Force) unit. It wasn't a front line unit much
after the Battle of France. They mostly got converted to...

Up first we have the first self-propelled artillery gun to make an appearance in FH2! The SdKfz 124 Wespe is a German mobile artillery piece that saw action from 1943 to 1945.

When the need for a self-propelled artillery gun arose, the Panzer II was chosen and removed from service after its inherent drawbacks became known during the Battle of France. The Wespe was little more than a Panzer II chassis with the turret removed and a 105mm howitzer and gun-shield added. It first saw action in 1943 on the Eastern Front and proved so successful, that the German high command ordered that all Panzer II production be reserved for the Wespe, which effectively canceled other projects such as the Marder II. By mid-1944 682 Wespes had been produced along with another 158 weaponless ammunition carriers. The SdKfz 124 Wespe was modeled and skinned by Toddel.

http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/screenshotsfh2/news/100819/wespe.jpg

hehe ;)

This would be perfect in our Panzer3 to StuG3 discussions.
Could make Panzer2 to Wespe and Marder2 conversions too.

* Wespe will be in OstHeer. So think about it.

Only ouch is that Wespe is the OstHeer's priest tank
(A sherman conversion for 8 to 12 POP)
Since this is a Panzer 2 conversion, I'd propose to
make it 4 to 6 pop and have it fire 3 shots instead of
6 (It's same caliber after all) ?

Just throwing that idea out there. What think?

* TheReaper.
No need for Recovery vehicle because other kills
wrecks. Sigh. Well, I could argue that a good player
won't let other get fuel to make tanks, so OstHeer
shouldn't be allowed to obtain Fuel at all? :)

No point in making tanks because good players
make AT guns, etc. Think about what you just
said :)

**

OH! Just caught onto something Aouch just said :
Using BergerPanzers to keep Panzer3s alive as they
advance... actually, that's brilliant. And can help
JUSTIFY further nerfing of the Pz3 as the Stuart-
trying-to-fight Panzer4's idea.

I really like the idea of (Similar to) a 8 point stuart
trying to take on Panzer4s and Panthers inefficiently.
If you weaken the Pz3 just enough, you can bring it
to 6 pop (with StuG3). Or how about 8 pts to
start, but drops to 6 pop once you buy Panzer3Berger
tank (Thus giving you some wriggle room to add a
Panzer3Berger to your army).

I really like the idea. Thanks Aouch ;)