ostheer medium tanks

QuoteMy idea of the Pz3 is a 8 pop Stuart. Pretty much.
Except that it can cripple-specialize down the road
(Losing it's all purpose role). But it's STILL a stuart.
And will be chewed on by T34/Shermans.


** If you think my StuG3 idea is OP :
: StuG3 is same thing as StuG4 ...
- All Pz3 can be made into StuG3.
- Maybe less health (It's a Stuart after all)
- 8 pop. Not 6. Not 4.
- 0+1 MG (Like StuG4)
- Mid-price between StuG4 and Pz4 (As Pz3)
+ Cheaper to make than to convert.
+ Marder ability comes at a price : Lockdown
Can camouflage and First Strike.
And not as strong as Marder. (Also a Pz3 hull
BTW. That's why it's a Marder... 3!). I'd balance the
AT punch of the Marder3 against the fact that
the StuG3 still has armor and has SOME AI capability.

Now Im completly lost ??? I dont belive that putting the PzIII in the same level that the Stuart is a proper analogy. Hopefully I will be the one that is mistaken and will be quickly corrected.

If not...   

Remember, What you are basically proposing is to transform a Stuart into PanzerIV-like vehicle. Upgraded Shermans/T-34s can still blow them to hell if they have "stuarts health" and that leaves the Ostheer without an answer to heavy tanks.

Another problem with Loup"s concept of a fragile Pz/StugIII is  for example: Tank hunters can eat them alive,indeed USA and Soviets are disturbingly effective when taking out light vehicles, perhaps even vulnerable to american MG-Piercing Rounds??? 

Basically meaning that OH tanks are easily predated by something enemy can deploy rapidly in high numbers .The concept is good but has too many flaws, what the point of giving them cool abilities and upgrades is they are destroyed by something the other player can obtain without much effort?

The switch betwwen PzIII and Stug can be corrected with further work ( thoughI would rather see them as separate vehicles that share upgrades as PE grens). For the
PzIII I like the idea of specialized upgrade,

But when making them like zippo packs that will blow up almost instantly when shot by bigger guns. It seems a bit pointless to me...

In that sense I think historical accuracy must be put aside...

     

Last edited September 12, 2010 at 8:16 PM by Ryousan

@ Ryousan :
- The Stuart is an example, as it is bigger than the Puma,
yet smaller than the Panzer4. It can still be tweaked along.

* I understand the vulnerability to AT weapons, and thank
god, too! Or else we'd have OstHeer fielding sherman-like
tanks when USA are still using Jeeps ;) The concept is to
take an idea and to make it fit. Balance as needed, while
striving as hard as possible for historical accuracy.

* Fine. If you don't like my idea, we can go with :
Get rid of Panzer3/StuG3 and put Panzer4/Panzer5
And make OstHeer into Wermacht 1.5
(Not many Pz3 running around in 1944+ anyways)
(Lots of StuG3 - THE MOST NUMEROUS GERMAN
tank of the war!) - But, meh, put Tigers instead.

* Or, make give Panzer3 the Panzer4 stats.
In which case, you can Panzer3 will be equal to
Sherman/T34. And get rid of StuG3. You might
as well get rid of Sherman/T34 and give Greyhound
/T70 their stats, that is what you are proposing.

  To every idea, there is flaw.
Every pro comes at the cost of a con.
Take StarCraft. Lots of weaker units, or few excellent
units? / I think Wehr has the few but excellent units
(But defensive) covered. We're talking about making
OH an early rush group using the Panzer3 as it's MBT.

To make things perfectly balanced, every doctrine
would have to be identical, every unit, everything
(aka: Chess).

Now... do you propose to make Panzer3 = Sherman76
(And completely ignore that there were more StuG3
built, and that the surviving Pz3 became StuG3?)

----
Small note on Fragile Pz3/StuG3 :
It ought to be. To reflect that T34/Sherman ate them
alive (That's why Panther4/Panthers took over)

How about this? :
No point giving OstHeer tanks (or anyone) as long
as opposing team has Anti Tanks.

What I would propose is to find solutions to the Pz3/Stug3
vulnerability to AT weapons (ie: Skirts, anyone?)
As well as tactics. We were talking about OstHeer tanks
giving cover to OstHeer troops, for example.

Hmm, there is something called a cover.
(Different analogy). 2 Forks, 2 knives, special spoon,
2-3 plates, 2 glasses, etc. I'm trying to propose something
DIFFERENT from the norm. OF COURSE a few things will
need to be adjusted. It's a question of crafting a 'whole'.

The Pz3 to StuG3 conversion fits very nicely
with the fact that Pz2 and the Wespe will be in.
Those also convert into the other.

If Pz3 is inferior to Pz4 (as it is) then it's excellent reason
to make them into StuG3 later on (As is historical)(Didn't
say you HAD to, didn't say you had to convert all of them)
- It's also logical that they ought to be more vulnerable
to AT fire.

If AT fire is such an issue, what would YOU suggest?
Giving Pz3 identical stats to the Panzer4 ?

You've just invented Wehr 1.5. Congratulations.
- And Deleted the British Stuart (And Puma and T70
and Greyhound and...) Unless they're given Sherman76+
all upgrades equivalencies.

@ Ryousan :
In that sense I think historical accuracy must be put aside...

Fine, we'll put in Klingon battlecruisers and BF2142
Walker TankMechs as per YOUR recommendation :)
Plus a few Protoss Colossus ;)

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This thread started this way :
okay so in regards to medium tanks for the ostheer I think we can narrow it down for the ostheer to at least two I see that would fit in CoH and that would have to be the panzer IV or some varient of it or the panther. Now I know some people want the panzer III in the ostheer too so do I however I don't see it as a comparable tank to that of the T-34 or the sherman or cromwell in a game like CoH. If the panzer III gets in the ostheer it will probably be an earier tank than the main late game tanks. So what would people preffer to see in terms of the factory based tanks?

----------------
Everyone agrees that Panzer3 isn't comparable to T34/
Sherman/Panzer4.

But we want to add it.

- Your solution is to give it T34/Sherman stats?
(It's also like giving up on the Sherman76/HVSS/Easy8
and saying Sherman 75 can kill Tigers).

But let's not be historical here... ;)
And forget the StuG3.
And the T34
And the Sherman

Let's just buff Pumas, T70 and Greyhounds. Yes?

Last edited September 12, 2010 at 10:11 PM by Loupblanc

Loupblanc wrote:
* TheReaper.
No need for Recovery vehicle because other kills
wrecks. Sigh. Well, I could argue that a good player
won't let other get fuel to make tanks, so OstHeer
shouldn't be allowed to obtain Fuel at all? :)

No point in making tanks because good players
make AT guns, etc. Think about what you just
said :)

Haha, that's true :D gone to a bit sarcastic. Funny making this Ostheer, becouse we have to do with the existing material. I just making these examples as regular CoH fan, like a car driver, who drives the car, but not really knows how it's engine work.

WHAT DA FUCK?
Now I'm completely lost.

@ Loup: Can you still stop talking about making PzIII into a Stuart? That's not the case and it shouldn't be the case.
PzIII L/42 should easily be able to take out Stuarts. Point. End of discussion. I thought we agreed on this fact?
And also please stop talking about StugIII being the most numerous whatever...  ::)
I think we all get what you meant. No need to make every of your posts into a one-site-long statement which repeats your former statements 1:1.

I think most of us agree, that a PzIII with 5cm L/42 should lose in a 1on1 vs. Sherman75. However, it should be much stronger than a tiny Stuart-wannabe-tank. PzIII with long 5cm L/60 should be at least on par with Sherm75.
Otherwise it would not make any sence at all to produce PzIII!

When Sherman76 and T-34 arrive, a PzIII should be able to take on them, either with the help of Tungsten (expensive, we all know) or with a superior number.
If IS-2 and T-34/85 arrive, an OH-player should be forced to go StuG III.

BUT HE SHOULDN'T PISS HIS F*CKING PANTIES WHEN A SHERMAN ARRIVE BECAUSE HE ONLY HAS PANZER III !

The PzKpfW. III wasn't a paper-tank with its crew throwing rocks out of the turret-hatch. Damnit.

End of the rant.  :-X

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I've something more to say:
In the desert, the PzIII proved to be superior to the Cromwell. Sorry, was thinking of Crusader, but in that time, the Afrika-Korps used L/42 PzIII, not much L/60, which could take on them.

And it's also a proven fact, that late version of PzIII could take on Shermans. Ask LordRommel or anyone other how has some experience in this branch.
Loup is saying, we want to turn PzIII into Shermans? Short answer: yes. Because that how it was. PzIII with the long L/60 could take on Shermans. They could also take on the early versions of the T-34 because in this stage of war, a T-34 in most cases arrived in a group of lighter tanks. Germans separated the T-34 from the rest and it was easy-going for the tank-crews. Of course, when a bunch of those soviet beasts arrived, good-night to PzIII.

Last edited September 12, 2010 at 10:30 PM by Aouch

@Ryousan :
Not buying it for two reasons:

It is an almost complete waste of resources for the almost the same price you can have another PzIII, another vehicle or even a StugIII (I dont know if you gave them any cost cost, but for balance reasons I belive it must somewhere near there).

You're not offering anything new except for giving
the Panzer3 'Panzer4 stats'.

At least WE are trying for something original, here.

- - -
Panzer 3 - StuG3/4 - Panzer 4 - Panzer 5 - Panzer 6
Should be the progression. Of COURSE the Panzer 3
should be weaker.

Solutions :
Get rid of Panzer3, put Panzer 4 : Wehr 1.5
Give Panzer3 'Panzer4 stats' : Wehr 1.5

Or go historical Weaker earlier Pz3 with crippling
upgrades (Called such, because those upgrades make
them lose something important) culminating in the StuG3.

Pz3L60 loses generalist role, AI role.
Pz3L24 loses generalist role, AT role.
Tungsten is inefficient (But does help)
(Note Pz3L24 can use Tungsten)
StuG3, well, is a StuG. I don't want it to be a super tank.

The only upgrades that aren't crippling are the Skirts
and the top machine gun (2+1) or (0+1).

I also think Pz3 to StuG3 conversion should come later.
Can build StuG3 separately, but conversion option comes
after. Perhaps as part as buying Pz2 to Wespe conversion?
(Tank to SPG factory conversions it could be called).

That way, you'll probably go upgrades first.
But Pz3 Short 50 to StuG3 conversion should be okay.
(Short 50, or L60, or L24) Obviously, you can't convert
all because you'd then be stuck with a bunch of StuG,
and no way to deal with infantry/AT guns.

-------------
You know, I'd love it if I could write short, precise.
Not rant for 20 pages. I feel I have excellent ideas, balance,
etc. I just can't phrase them right.

How about we have this debate in French? :)
THEN I could express myself right.

Anyone want to be my agent?
Aouch seems to understand what I am trying to say,
and to be able to write it into short-easy-to-read form ;)

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TheReaper wrote:

Loupblanc wrote:
* TheReaper.
No need for Recovery vehicle because other kills
wrecks. Sigh. Well, I could argue that a good player
won't let other get fuel to make tanks, so OstHeer
shouldn't be allowed to obtain Fuel at all? :)

No point in making tanks because good players
make AT guns, etc. Think about what you just
said :)

Haha, that's true :D gone to a bit sarcastic. Funny making this Ostheer, becouse we have to do with the existing material. I just making these examples as regular CoH fan, like a car driver, who drives the car, but not really knows how it's engine work.

- Yea, I know. It's hard making it all fit.
The easiest thing would be to just give Pz4 stats to the
Pz3, give WehrMacht faction a different skin, only. And
be done. No one could argue that it's not balanced.
Easy, expeditive... sane... and BORING :)

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Aouch : Quote:
@ Loup: Can you still stop talking about making PzIII into a Stuart? That's not the case and it shouldn't be the case.
PzIII L/42 should easily be able to take out Stuarts. Point. End of discussion. I thought we agreed on this fact?
- We never discussed Stuart/PzIII. I am using Stuart
as an example of 'something between Greyhound and
Sherman'. I am not saying they are equal, but I DO
think it's an excellent exemple of why PzIIIL42 would
WANT to upgrade. T34 vs Stuart is a VERY good
example of 'T34 shock'. Yup excellent reason to
upgrade.
(I don't know who would win between a Stuart and
a PzIIIL42 but since the Stuart has a short 37mm
(same gun as the Greyhound), well... Maybe a
Stuart with the Puma's 50mm upgrade would be
about right. Put on Skirts, top sided MG and tungsten
ammo and you have it about right. A decent tank
that comes earlier yet is inferior to Sherman/T34.)

And also please stop talking about StugIII being the most numerous whatever...  ::)
I think we all get what you meant. No need to make every of your posts into a one-site-long statement which repeats your former statements 1:1.
- Then stop trying to make Pz3 into decent MBT on it's
own. You're trying to make Wehr 1.5 again :) (Read your
own admission written today)(Of OStHeer light) :)

I think most of us agree, that a PzIII with 5cm L/42 should lose in a 1on1 vs. Sherman75. However, it should be much stronger than a tiny Stuart-wannabe-tank. PzIII with long 5cm L/60 should be at least on par with Sherm75.
Otherwise it would not make any sence at all to produce PzIII!
- Er. No. *I* agree that PzIIIL42 should lose 1on1 vs
Sherman75. Ryousan wants PzIIIL42 to WIN against
Sherman75 :)
- I agree PzIIIL42(50mm medium) vs Stuart(37mm Short)
is a PzIII win. I want Pz3 to be a Stuart with a 50mm Puma
gun. Still not enough for a Sherman.
- PzIIIL60 on par with a Sherman75. Yea with Tungsten
ammo. We're talking of making a Stuart kill a Panzer 4
here (Poor example, I know. I'm just trying to explain an
idea. I'm not suggesting actually using Stuart stats)
(Mind it comes at cost of losing AI capability)

When Sherman76 and T-34 arrive, a PzIII should be able to take on them, either with the help of Tungsten (expensive, we all know) or with a superior number.
If IS-2 and T-34/85 arrive, an OH-player should be forced to go StuG III.

- Sherman AND T34 were made in superior numbers.
I don't think OstHeer should have ability to have more
tanks than the Russians or American.
- Oh yea. Panzer3 should be completely outclassed when
IS2/T34-85 comes out. StuG3 would be the way to go.

BUT HE SHOULDN'T PISS HIS F*CKING PANTIES WHEN A SHERMAN ARRIVE BECAUSE HE ONLY HAS PANZER III !
- Sure. He should piss his panties if he has a PzIIIL42
No Tungsten and AT insufficient. Like a Stuart meeting
a Panzer4. Upgrade.

The PzKpfW. III wasn't a paper-tank with its crew throwing rocks out of the turret-hatch. Damnit.
- I'm using an example :) I'm not saying I want it to have
Stuart stats :) PzIIIL42 has better gun anyways. So even
in a 1 on 1 duel Stuart would lose to PzIIIL42. We agree.

End of the rant.  :-X
- We should chat damn it :)

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I've something more to say:
In the desert, the PzIII proved to be superior to the Cromwell.

And it's also a proven fact, that late version of PzIII could take on Shermans. Ask LordRommel or anyone other how has some experience in this branch.
Loup is saying, we want to turn PzIII into Shermans? Short answer: yes. Because that how it was. PzIII with the long L/60 could take on Shermans. They could also take on the early versions of the T-34 because in this stage of war, a T-34 in most cases arrived in a group of lighter tanks. Germans separated the T-34 from the rest and it was easy-going for the tank-crews. Of course, when a bunch of those soviet beasts arrived, good-night to PzIII.
[/quote]

- I agree that PzIIIL60+tungsten can take on Sherman
75(Without +/76 refits)(sandbags yknow) or T34/76.
I'm saying PzIIIL42 shouldn't.
- And you keep missing 1 point.
PzIIIL60 OVERspecialises in the AT role. It loses
it's generalist capability as part of the price.

:) We should chat.

Last edited September 12, 2010 at 10:44 PM by Loupblanc

@Aouch, could you settle down a bit?

He clearly stated that was meaning to the type of unit: Stuart<Panzer 3<Panzer4

Double Panzer 3 > Sherman 76
Panzer 3 using AP rounds has chance to win against Sherman 76.

That if the opponent hasn't anti-tank gun(s) or other similar-ability unit to support it...

But is recommended to use a Stug 3 on that. Even if Panzer 3 can engage with T-34/76 or Sherman 76 the fact is that they aren't meant to do it. Because of that the roles between the PzIV and PzIII were reversed and the Pzs III converted, most of them on Stugs III. They weren't suited to do it and their couldn't be improved further, unlike PzIV.

@BlackBishop !!!!!!!
THANK YOU! LOL SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS ME!

What you said... is ... EXACTLY...
what I've been trying to say :)

How come you could say it so simply?! Tell me your secret!
- Can you comment on the Pz2 to Wespe conversion idea?
It fits this into the Pz3 to StuG3 conversion idea.

Sorry, blackbishop, I just went crazy a little bit, because I was sure that Loup and I were the same opinion and now I'm totally on Ryousan's side.
However, I'll now PM with Loup instead of making this thread into an endless discussion...  ;)

Nubrannosaurus
Ingenery

Offline

Posts: 20



 
Re: Salutations !
« Sent to: Loupblanc on: September 09, 2010, 06:27:18 PM »
Quote  Reply  Remove 
Hi Loupblanc,

Thanks for the comment, I appreciate it.  I looked into the medium tank discussion and to be honest I need to do some major graphing and mapping out of the existing units for the vCoF and OF to give an opinion of my own.  I've been out of the CoH loop for quite some time and I can't visualize it well enough to really understand what you guys are debating.

One's thing for sure though is that I've read your posts and you're going at it the right way.  I'm glad to see people like Auoch be contributing members to this board but it appears his ideas for the Ostheer are based more on sheer difference from the other factions rather than usefulness or rationality.  You, on the other hand, provide a nice historical basis but much more importantly you refer to game mechanics.  You've often referred to how the Ostheer's medium tank would react to the Allies' medium tank, which is crucial to balance.  You've also spoken of when the medium tank becomes available in comparison with the other Allied medium tanks -- again, another crucial consideration.

Keep it up, you're looking at the theoretical Ostheer far better than most people.  I'm trying to get involved with these threads but I don't have a lot of time to map everything out.  Maybe I will sometime soon.

Good luck!

P.S. Didn't have time to look at the soviet hero system you designed, sorry!

I received this in my private messages! ;)

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Aouch wrote:
Sorry, blackbishop, I just went crazy a little bit, because I was sure that Loup and I were the same opinion and now I'm totally on Ryousan's side.
However, I'll now PM with Loup instead of making this thread into an endless discussion...  ;)

- Ryousan wants no StuG3, and PanzerIII with Panther
stats, no BergerPanzer, no conversions. Nothing new,
and original. Except making the Panzer3 into a tank that
fought till 1945 and was a match for opposition
= Wehr 1.5 So OstHeer could be original in being a
Faction with no salvage (Like 4 other factions, instead
of 1). Might as well get rid of Shermans/T34s and give
T70/Greyhounds Panther stats.

Let's not worry about history, he said.
Guess that means we can add the Japanese to the
OstHeer.

Last edited September 12, 2010 at 11:01 PM by Loupblanc

About these concepts, Panzer 3->Stug 3 and Panzer 2->Wespe, have features that I like, unit preservation, but rewarded with inherited veterancy. If you manage to upgrade your Panzer 3 with vet2 to Stug 3 with vet 2 would be cool. I mean, no other faction have the choice to upgrade their current units in that way(I mean it's not anymore a PzIII, is a different unit - of course based on pzIII...).

Aouch wrote:
Maybe I should really get on of those IM. :)
** Yes please do.

Now:
1) I don't want to make PzIII into PzIV.
** Thank you.
PzIII is first very vulnerable to medium tanks. But multi-role. Like its superior opponents. Then it's upgraded to L/60 but loses its multi-role-ability. But now it should be on-par with Sherman75, so in a 1on1: Both are destroyed.  ;)
** I agree. I agree. I agree.
** Yes. it LOSES multi role ability.
** I agree.

However, this situation will probably never happen in CoH, because of the Brit-style-slow-movement an attacking PzIII will usually have 2 other PzIII around him.
** Actually, eh. I was thinking just 1 is fine.
I just want this to slow it down a little. Remove
This later on. The goal is just to slow it down
at first, not cripple it forever. Just 1+1 is good
at first, then the 'curse' is lost.

Furthermore, I'm not giving up Stug3. I just want to the Pz3 to last some minutes on the battlefield. And not disappearing seconds after a Sherman75 arrives and kill them all. Stug3 appears AFTER Sherman76 and T-34 arrives. Otherwise, the Allies will have no chance in midgame, if Stug3 arrives too early. Remember, Stug3 also is able to kill IS2. Therefore it could potentially kill Sherms and Ts with ease. Which shouldn't happen too soon in a match.
** I agree. I think I lean slightly more towards
StuG3, and you lean more towards PzIII. This is
because of the historical 3-to-1 ratio of StuG3
to PzIII later on. I want this to be portrayed.
You wants lots of PzIII, few StuGIII. I don't
want StuGIII as IS2 killer. Hmm, maybe like
SU85?

Therefore, the Pz3 has to fill the gap -> Pz3L60 with tungsten kill Sherm76, Pz3L60 without tungsten kill Sherm75. With "kill" I mean it's able to potentially kill them, but also with the same chances it's destroyed by Sherm.
** We agree.
** PzIIIL42 doesn't have tungsten.
** PzIIIL24 DOES

2) 40/50 for 20sec. 40 is a lot, and 10 is too short. Just my opinion.
** I want same thing as American AT gun.
Same cost, same duration. ... But not as good ;)

3) Panzer 3 shouldn't be cheap. Sherman cost 420mp and 90fuel. Stug4 340mp 50fuel. Pz4 410mp 70fuel.
Therefore Pz3 should be around 350mp and 50fuel.
Take into account you have to upgrade to be on par with Sherm75 plus make more of them to start an effective assault (3+), this means the resources are lacking somewhere else.
** This is an area where I don't know what to say.
(Cost specifics). I was thinking Stuart is about
right. Better gun, but the british slow curse.
What's Stuart cost again?
Pz3L60+tungsten should be MORE exp than S76
350/50 cost? Hmm Try 380/60 (Just under T34)
We can haggle costs later, to fit.
** I don't want big PzIII packs. So movement
curse I would limit at 2 not 3+
Shouldn't have more PzIII than T34/Shermans ;)
Must have more StuGIII  than PzIII too.

4) Ryousan want Stugs. Believe me. He just doesn't want to have Stugs as soon as the first Sherman enters the field. Therefore, Pz3 has to be able to fight Sherm. And Stug3 has to be able to fight T-34/85 and IS2.

** I'm fine with early StuGIII, they don't have
to be tank killers right off the start, though. They
have short barrel versions too, yes?
** Pz3 has to be able to fight shermans
INNEFICIENTLY :) And, yes, StuG3 to fight
Larger stuff.
(Note : Long Barrel 75 StuG)

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Aouch wrote:

Loupblanc wrote:
What BlackBishop said is EXACTLY what I was
trying to say.

I also agree with blackbishop, since he said that Pz3L60 is basically able to take on Sherman76, but Stug3 is  more appropriate to do this, because with tungsten you're basically shooting your ammunition-resources away. However, it should be able to kill Sherman75 without the need of tungsten.

And that's the point we seem to not agree.

- Double Panzer 3 > Sherman 76
Panzer 3 using AP rounds has chance to win against Sherman 76.

That if the opponent hasn't anti-tank gun(s) or other similar-ability unit to support it...

But is recommended to use a Stug 3 on that. Even if Panzer 3 can engage with T-34/76 or Sherman 76 the fact is that they aren't meant to do it. Because of that the roles between the PzIV and PzIII were reversed and the Pzs III converted, most of them on Stugs III. They weren't suited to do it and their couldn't be improved further, unlike PzIV.

Is what he said :)

I think Pz3L42 should get bad shock against
Sherman75/T34-76. PzL60 would be about
equal (but fatally overspecialized), and would need
tungsten against T34/85-S76 but this has to be
inefficient. I want good reason to switch to
StuG3 and my idea of StuG3 isn't much more
powerful than StuG4. So if you propose a PzIII
that is stronger than Sherman76 (and cheaper)
why make StuGIII ?

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blackbishop wrote:
About these concepts, Panzer 3->Stug 3 and Panzer 2->Wespe, have features that I like, unit preservation, but rewarded with inherited veterancy. If you manage to upgrade your Panzer 3 with vet2 to Stug 3 with vet 2 would be cool. I mean, no other faction have the choice to upgrade their current units in that way(I mean it's not anymore a PzIII, is a different unit - of course based on pzIII...).

** Hmm, actually, I didn't say that at all. But not because
I am againt it, but because I didn't think about it. But I
like it a LOT! :)
** Not true. Sherman 75 to Sherman 76 keeps it's vet :)
** T34-76 to T34-85 is a different tank :)
** Pz4 to StuG4 is a downgrade, so no point to it.
** Pz3 to StuG3 *IS* an upgrade, thus was done aplenty.

  Of COURSE a Pz3 upgrading to StuG3 should keep it's vet :)

** What do you think of Pz2 to Wespe?
It would be a direction different from the RIF (Recon in
Force) of the Puma. And it fits because Wespe is to be
included in OstHeer. I was thinking it ought to have a CAP
though. Maybe 2, maybe 3? 4 Max. Does it want to be
a Stuka-HT (No limit), or a Priest? (Limit 2-3)(But is
more powerful, but is doctrine max ability). I was thinking
give it 3 shots per salvoe with cap 2-3 (Like Priest) but
with possibility of giving it +1 shot per salvoe as a
potential added upgrade?

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Aouch wrote:
I just said 3+ because I said it earlier in that thread.
I'm fine with Pz3 getting rid of it's British-style nerf with 2 tanks. However, I think this nerf should stay also later in a match. If someone wants to use Pz3, he has to have some more. Otherwise would be dumb, too, since Pz3 is weaker than most medium tanks, therefore you need more to do the same job.  ;)
** PzIII shouldn't be about spam like T34/Sherman.
I want StuGIII spam, but not PzIII spam. Slow down
is only necessary early on. Get rid of it with first
upgrade? And 2 Group is fine :)
** PzIII is same speed as PzIV :) Are WE ARGUING
because you want to nerf PzIII and I want to Buff
it??! :) LOL

Historical Ratio: In the early war, the number of Stugs were very, very, very low. Pz3 had the greatest number. This is portrayed ingame with it coming earlier and its need for 2 or more (Brit-penalty). Later, when other tanks outclassed Pz3, more Stugs came in. Just like we're trying to do in EF.
** In 1939/1941. Not 1944+ :)
** I want in order (of arrival) Pz3, StuG, Pz4)
So, yes PzIII comes first. We agree.
** Yup
** Fine, we agree so far.

Many Pz3 -> better enemy tanks -> need for Stug -> most Pz3 converted into Stug.  ;)
** We agree except on I don't believe should
have more PzIII than Sherman/T34. I want about
same ratio.
** Yes, most converted into StuG

So basically, I really want lots of Pz3 and few Stugs in mid-game, BUT in late-game few Pz3 (mostly N-variants, just like IRL) and lots of Stugs for infantry-support (our lock-behind-ability) and AT.
** Point we disagree on is you want Germans
to produce more PzIII than Russians/Americans
produce T34/Shermans :)
** But I agree on more PzIII than StuGIII early.
** Yes, exactly (Use the british officer follow
/ PE Ammo half track follow mechanics)

To 2) I can't say anything more: Balancing testing.  :)
** Yup, needs balanced testing :)

To 3): Stuart 280mp 45fuel. Rest is balancing testing. But take into account that you need at least a few Pz3 to be effective, unlike Sherms, which can also work on its own (with some infantry support, whereas Pz3 acts as Panzer-battlegroup, Stug again is more like a single unit with inf-support, like Sherm).
** 280/45/6 is too cheap. I was thinking 380/60/6
or 380/60/8 Needs tweaking of course.
** Again, you are trying to push more PzIII than
Shermans/T34 That is wrong.

To Short-barraled StuGs: Believe me, you don't want that. Stubby-Stugs are like Pz3"N". It would interfere too much. Just go instant StuG3"G", most produced one + other versions where used mostly before Operation Barbarossa.
** Plenty of Short StuGs were used early on.
That way, Ryousan won't have to fear early
Stu3Gs eating Shermans (They can't)

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Post Merge: [time]1284339710[/time]

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Aouch wrote:
About the spam:
Why shouldn't there be as much Pz3 on the field as Shermans or T-34? Come on, it's a game, not real WW2.
** Still, try to be as faithful as possible.
More PzIII than Sherman equals no room for
StuGIII. If PzIII can win 1-on-1 against Sherman
AND are more numerous. You're asking to start
game with Tiger and auto-win right away.

Realistic CoH: N44. Not EF. Pz3 should be as spammable/not spammable as Sherm and T-34.
StuG3 shouldn't be "spammed" in my opinion. They are tankdestroyers, not MTBs. Hide them when in defense, lock infantry behind when assaulting.
** No. Spamming PzIII should be suicidal
unless you can win early. StuGIII should be
as spammable as Sherman/T34. 3-to-1 ratio.
Deal with it. (WAY more StuG built in war than Pz3)

About the costs: I would settle with 350/380mp 50fuel 7pop. Because it's worse then Sherm75 and needs upgrading, which costs again ammo. Also, it can't be spammed all around early, because Brit-penalty.
- The problem is you are asking for PzIII to
be 1/2 the price AND still win 1-on-1 against
a tank that costs twice the cost. Think about it.
- Oh, of course. Costs of upgrades need to
be factored in. I *DO* want PzIII+Upgrade+
Tungsten to be MORE expensive than Making
Sherman/T34 spam (Inneficient)

Again, it depends on the player how many Pz3 will be on the battlefield. If he wants to build a spam, let it be. SU makes SU-85 and US M10 eh M36... A tankdestroyer will in most cases win against a tank.  ;)
** Oh, of course. If he wants to make spam,
let it be. But it shouldn't be an auto-win strategy.
** Ryousan doesn't want PzIII to be vulnerable
to AT, though.

About short-barraled-Stug: Again, I have to repeat myself: Short-barrel makes no sense, since when you get them, at the same time you could make Pz3"N". Please, let the Pz3 have at least something usefull at all.  ;D
You could make them have StuK40 L/43. Like L/42 and L/60. However, that would be a little bit too similar to Pz3. I would rather not again spend endless muni in tanks to make them equal to allied ones.  ;)
** As you can see, I am looking for every way
in which to put more StugIII than PzIII ;)
Ryousan doesn't want StuGIII to auto-rape
Shermans as soon as they come out and I THINK
HE IS RIGHT! - Solution : Require StuGIII to
need an upgrade to be deadly (aka : Short gun
StuGIII). Of course, we can also make them
come later (aka : Panthers-era) But I want them
weaker and more numerous (Like StuG4 with
special abilities)

I think the magic keyword here is veterancy.
With the cloak-ability they are also much more efficient in a defending position than attacking, therefore I don't see any problems with StuG3 being overpowered.
** Exacly
** I was thinking weak Marder with good armor.

If T-34 is a "shock" to Pz3, let us the little fun to "counter-shock" them.  :D
** You can't :) Because you already have had
your 'Shock' in bringing out the PzIII early.
Actually, I am not phrasing this right. What I am
saying is, T34/76 coming out should hurt/scare
early PzIII (L42).

  What you are saying is further PzIII upgrades
correct that problem. (At an inneficient cost)
And I agree. As long as StuGIII wins out in the end.

I think you love PzIII too much and I love
StuGIII too much :)

We should CHAT, man. IM.
We might understand each other more.

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[quote author=Aouch link=action=profile;u=859 date=1284338277]
[quote author=Loupblanc link=action=profile;u=168 date=1284337288]
However, small detail. If PzIIIL60
is MBT, it can't win against them 1-on-1 AND
be more numerous AND be cheaper ;)

Pz3L60 isn't a "generalist". Therefore you can't really compare prices. Second, it costs about 50-75 muni to upgrade to L60. Then you even need tungsten, which isn't cheap.  ;)
However, it's a matter of balancing. We shouldn't think about that.  ;)

** Ahh thank you. Yea, the Pz3L60 isn't an
UPgrade of the Pz3L42 as much as a SIDE-GRADE.
Just like the Pz3L24 isn't an UP-GRADE.
Skirts and +frontal armor is an UP-GRADE.
** yea. Need L60/L24 upgrade BEFORE can use
Tungsten. Do you think should have an unlock
before they can use Tungsten?

Am thinking PzIII should have similar cost to
Sherman/T34 if they can win againt them 1-on-1.
- We should chat/IM :)

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Post Merge: [time]1284341018[/time]

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Email to... forgot his name :
Nubrannosaurus

The debate is raging. You should keep up :)
- Also, I had this idea of the Pz2 (in-game) and
Wespe (in-game) could be a conversion(as well
as buildable from scratch).
Priest is a Sherman (8pop) to Priest (12pop).
They were not modified on the go, though.
Pz2 is (4) pop then Wespe could be 6 pop,
and be a 3 shot priest (instead of 6 shots).

There would be a cap on them. Perhaps 2 or 3?
Perhaps a doctrine ability could make this +1
shot and +1 wespe?

What do you think?
It fits well in the PzIII to StuGIII model idea.

Aouch and Ryouchan seem to want to make
PzIII cheaper, earlier, not vulnerable to AT,
more numerous, yet able to fight against T34/
Sherman 1-on-1 and while StuGIII being
present, this being in a secondary role,
when they had a 3-to-1 ratio in the war endgame.

I don't see why PzIII should be easier to spam
than Sherman/T34. Thoughts?

Last edited September 13, 2010 at 1:23 AM by Loupblanc

Quote - Ryousan wants no StuG3, and PanzerIII with Panther stats, no BergerPanzer, no conversions. Nothing new,
and original. Except making the Panzer3 into a tank that
fought till 1945 and was a match for opposition
= Wehr 1.5 So OstHeer could be original in being a
Faction with no salvage (Like 4 other factions, instead
of 1). Might as well get rid of Shermans/T34s and give
T70/Greyhounds Panther stats.

Let's not worry about history, he said.
Guess that means we can add the Japanese to the
OstHeer

Allllright... ::) Does anybody actually read something I write? I just said that the PzII/StugIII switch need some tweaks, not the whole thing sucks :o. By Christ sake, I was one of the people who said that a good Tank Destroyer was needed, some said Nashorn, some said StugIII I AGREED IN THOSE!!!!

About the Bergepz, I complained about it, because when anoyone proposed that the Ostheer could salvage vehicles, everybody complained about it. If you think it can work be guest. Just dont like the idea of making it Unit specific, if thats the case make it a doctrine unit and everybody is happy!

About Historical Accuracy, I read ::) and Im not unreasonable, and hell I dont want to see Land Raiders and Baneblade tanks in CoH but also I dont want see the Ostheer trying to defeat Shermans and T-34s with flintlock muskets  and charging MG-Nests with Hussars!!!!  :P

Perhaps I fail to see what Loup was proposing, but when he said a PzIII with stuart stats...its kinda like wanting to defeat actual MBTs with AT Halftracks. What happens when a Pershing, IS-2 or a Comet appears by then?

Quote - Er. No. *I* agree that PzIIIL42 should lose 1on1 vs
Sherman75. Ryousan wants PzIIIL42 to WIN against
Sherman75 :)

I Agree that PzIII isnt a good choice on 1-1 but is really necessary to make it suck so badly? Why not using StugIV stats for the Pz/StugIII? Stugs are still beaten by T-34/Shermans still can take enough punishment to be
considered efficient by themselves. I mean superior to the Stuart and the Puma, yet inferior to the Panzer IV: thats why I think Stug IV is better analogy.

Dont know about stats, but I read that PzIII could take on Shermans and Crusader Tanks (Historical Fact)

Loup says I propose to eliminate all the uniqueness out of the Ostheer. Nope, I just pointed out what aspects of his proposal need some tweaking.

@Ryousan :
I do read what you write :)

I wish someone *Blackbishop?* Wrote for me. Lol.
I could just rant to him and he'd write what I mean in
2-3 sentences, easy!

@Ryousan :
Could take on 1942 era Shermans perhaps but
those in Normandie were different. COH one is M4A3
(Firefly is M2). The PanzerIIIL60 is more of a specialist
unit. It's no longer a generalist MBT.

I'm trying to make things historical, yet balanced.
What happens when IS2/Pershing/Comet comes out?
... You make StuGIII.

I don't want PanzerIII to be equal to PanzerIV.
I don't want solution to be 'make tons of PanzerIII'
(More than T34/Sherman)
I want more StuGIII than PanzerIII
I want PanzerIII to come earlier than StuGIII.
I don't want StuGIII to be AWESOME. Between a
StuGIV and a Weak MarderIII (PanzerIII convertion too!)
(The Marder is)

* Isn't the Nashorn a Marder4?
Surviving Panzer IV variants - A PDF file presenting the Panzer IV variants (Jagdpanzer IV, Hummel, Nashorn, Brummbär, StuG IV, Flakpanzer tanks and prototypes based on Pz IV) still existing in the world

Yup. Nashorn is Marder4 :)
No problem with that. I'd want it to be doctrine-Tiger
Level, though (Like Flak88 is Tiger of Wehr/Def)

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Post Merge: [time]1284353969[/time]

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Dont know about stats, but I read that PzIII could take on Shermans and Crusader Tanks (Historical Fact)
(In 1942, in the African Desert)
(Cromwell is better than Cruiser)
(There are many different types of Cruiser tanks)
(Original cruiser had a 2pounder gun - AHAHAHAHA)
(PanzerIIIL60 is a TD not a MBT)
(Like a shitty Panther)

Loup says I propose to eliminate all the uniqueness out of the Ostheer. Nope, I just pointed out what aspects of his proposal need some tweaking.
- Of COURSE it needs tweaking. I'm just throwing ideas.
I'm finding an idea I like more and more. Want to mix
history, realism into good play balance dynamics while
doing something different than Wehr 1.5

You guys mostly propose to make the Panzer III into a
Panzer IV and keep forgetting the StuG III. Thus your
ideas keep looking like : Let's make the Panzer III viable
against all opponents on equal footing against ally medium
MBT.

The StuG? It's 340/50 fuel. I was thinking 380/60.
Maybe 6 pop maybe 8 pop. Aouch says 7 pop.
I don't want it to be a good spammable choice.
Especially not more than T34/Sherman. And meeting
the T34 should be a nasty encounter to an un-upgraded
PanzerIII.

Last edited September 13, 2010 at 4:59 AM by Loupblanc

QuoteI don't want PanzerIII to be equal to PanzerIV.
I don't want solution to be 'make tons of PanzerIII'
(More than T34/Sherman)
I want more StuGIII than PanzerIII
I want PanzerIII to come earlier than StuGIII.
I don't want StuGIII to be AWESOME. Between a
StuGIV and a Weak MarderIII (PanzerIII convertion too!)
(The Marder is)

Loup I agree in all of these.

*Abou putting the PzIII in the same level than the PzIV: I never wanted an Uber-PzIII Just dont want want an Unter-PzIII that cannot take care of anything by its own.

*About the "PzIII Spam": never really crossed my mind, though I liked the Idea of a Panzer Group Zeal.

*About more StugsIII than PzIIIs: can be applied with the proper mechanics. Upgrading needs twaking, but can work . Indeed I came out with some ideas if the BergepanzerIII was doctrine specific:

-Can upgrade your Panzer IIIs to Stug III(even when they are "still alive") for free.

-Can Salvage destroyed PzIII and upgrade them to Stug.

-Can Salvage StugIII wreaks and make them operational again.

*About the PzIII coming out earlier than the Stug: nothing against it. I envisioned the PzIII coming out around the same time the Stug IV comes out, and the Stug coming out around the same time the PzIV is coming out, for example. Depends on the Tech Tree that the Ostheer is getting.

*About the StugIII being COOL but NOT AWESOME: Mmmmm...Still beliving that the OH needs something awesome to finish off the game or to defend it self against Uber-Tanks. Something that is not doctrine specific. I wanted something like a:

-Panzer IV Battle Group.

-A Tiger call In.

-A Stug III Battlegroup.

Just my thoughts.       

How many Pz. III will you need to gift the game to your opponent?

Panzer III should be the "spear" tank until shermans/T-34, it would erase T70, T90, SU-85(unsupported or ambushed, because if he see you first...), Stags, M8, T17 or Halftracks, light and nasty not-so-early units, until Sherman/T34 comes, it could take the job specially if has vet, but if you see these tanks and you hestiate to make the decision of the Stug upgrade, they are warning you, of course the messages are different from user to user but could be from:

"Hey i have better tanks you could try to stop me if you like we already have a party here, meanwhile I'll keep your fuel, ammo and victory points if you dont mind :)"

to

"We'll have a hell of a party at your base ;)"

or

"Ready for a base rape ;D"

PIII L60 could work at some level but it will serve you as transition to Stug3 or whatever 2nd. armor choice that will be added, considering that are 1-1 with shermans, and you need two to defeat a sherman76 or t34/76. You can delay him, but don't expect to win the war with just PzIII(unless vs Amis with SWC start-i'm just made up that we cannot measure that yet ;)).

PIII L42 will work as an infantry support tank. Nothing more to add :).

The only thing that bothers me is how the british will kill it? There's such tactic as "fast cromwell"?

I forgot to say but for now we can forgot about the bergepanther/bergepanzer ;).

That's my humble opinion.

So let me get this right, the Panzer III will act as a main tank until the Sherman/T-34 come, and once they come you can upgrade it to the Stug III to face them?But how exactly do you upgrade them?Globally or each unit?So if it's globally it means you can't built the Panzer III after you make the upgrade, or if it's per unit that means you have to build a Panzer III each time you want a Stug III?Or the Stug III will also be buildable but it's cheaper/faster/better if you upgrade it from the Panzer III?Also what about the Luchs?Is it gonna stay untouched or another conversion unit?Wespe buildable/call-in(doctrine)/upgrade from another unit?

My idea if it's not already like this: Keep the Panzer III as a buildable unit, and make the Stug III upgrade globally, cost with fuel, but in this way; once you research the Stug III you can convert it on field from your Panzer III or you can build it alone from the factory!

Last edited September 13, 2010 at 2:34 PM by Cozmin95

Cozmin95 wrote:
My idea if it's not already like thise: Keep the Panzer III as a buildable unit, and make the Stug III upgrade globally, cost with fuel, but in this way; once you research the Stug III you can convert it on field from your Panzer III or you can build it alone from the factory!

That's exactly the same idea Loup and I had.  ;)

@ blackbishop: Shame we won't see Bergepanzer. I'm curious why the DEVs decided to not have it?
It's a whole different unit than the Bergetiger. Bergetiger is for salvaging wrecks and repairing vehicles behind the frontline, because it's too slow to keep up with advancing forces, whereas a Bergepanzer III's main purpose is to repair tanks on the frontline. It's as fast as Pz III and StuG III. Plus it doesn't have Tiger's armor. However, it has also a second function: Converting Pz3 into Stug3. Destroyed Pz3 and functional Pz3, IMO. Additionally it could also do something similiar to Pz2.

Therefore it serves a new concept, something which doesn't exist in CoH till now.
However, I don't decide that, as always.

@Aouch

You wait and see :). Perhaps they surprise you.

Panzer II Ausf. L (PzKpfw IIL) "Luchs"


Panzer II Ausf.L in the Musée des Blindés, Saumur.
A light reconnaissance tank, the Ausf. L was the only Panzer II design with the overlapping road wheels to enter series production, with 100 being built from September 1943 to January 1944 in addition to conversion of the four Ausf. M tanks. Originally given the experimental designation VK1303, it was adopted under the alternate name Panzerspähwagen II and given the popular name Luchs (Lynx). The Lynx was larger than the Ausf. G in most dimensions (length 4.63 m; height 2.21 m; width 2.48 m). It was equipped with a six speed transmission (plus reverse), and could reach a speed of 60 km/h with a range of 290 km. The FuG12 and FuG Spr a radios were installed, while 330 rounds of 20 mm and 2,250 rounds of 7.92 mm ammunition were carried. Total vehicle weight was 13 tons.

- Ok, I had no idea what a 'Luchs' Pz2 was. It's a Lynx.
Basically a 'deluxe' Pz2, from what I can gather.

** Yup, pretty much everything that's been said.

* BlackBishop : Aouch wants a single PzIIIL60 to win
against a Sherman76/T34-85 if it uses Tungsten ammo.

* You mistook PzIIIL42 for PzIIIL24 :) (Anti infantry)

* I want PzIIIL24 and PzIIIL60 to be more of a sidegrade.
for PzIIIL42. Not an 'UP-Grade'. PzIII shouldn't have a
top-mounted machine-gun to keep to the 'Inferior to a
PanzerIV idea'.
* PzIIIL24 can use tungsten ammo (Twice the price,
however?).

* It's Wreck, not Wreak :)

* I want StuG and Wespe to be available from
- Buildable from scratch - at HQ/Factory.
- Convertable from existing PzIII/PzII
- Performed automatically from salvage (Needs an
unlock). Perhaps StuG/Wespe can be same upgrade?

*** I was thinking of something. We were discussing
'Global' upgrades. Why not do it soviet style? Pay a big
price at home (Like Sherman76 upgrade) and then the
upgrade/convertions can be done for free? (Just an
idea). Not that I think it should be done per se, but
just wanted to remind the mechanics)(Same coding)

*** If PanzerIII still buildable, should be as a PzIIIL42
(That way, you still need to pay for upgrades)(Like PE
PzIV AI). I'm fine with PzIII being buildable, though.

*** Oh, I'm fine with StuGIII being able to kill uber
tanks, just that it must adopt defensive posture for
it. (Like a Wehr Pak40/Marder3). I don't want it to
be a firefly, for example.

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Post Merge: [time]1284416591[/time]

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blackbishop wrote:
@Aouch

You wait and see :). Perhaps they surprise you.

- Tell us what they got planned?

** Eh, I've been playing BF2/FH2 and there's a 1940 map
where it's invasion of France (CounterAttack it's called).
And the Germans have a StuGIIIB (Short barrel).

I want to see a short barrel StuGIII in-game! :)

Last edited September 13, 2010 at 10:23 PM by Loupblanc

I personally don't think the Stug III is any good with the short barrel to destroy enemy tanks, if i am right i believe the short barrel is mostly used anti infantry/light vehicles since it has a higher velocity and such but i a long barrel version would be a lot better to tackle heavier armor! :)

Any of these models would be great:
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.F.htm
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.F8.htm
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.G.htm
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.Gs.htm
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.G%28US%29.htm

I think the Ostheer should use a captured Char B-1 , it was captured in large numbers in france and many were sent to the Eastern front , many were also converted to flamethrower tanks with enough fluid for 200 fires :)

*In game it would be less efficient than normal Tanks like the Panzer 4

*but still provide an infantry support role.

*Possibly be doctrine specific

yes theres no model but many other suggestions dont have a proper model.

Last edited September 14, 2010 at 1:05 PM by Akalonor

Akalonor wrote:
I think the Ostheer should use a captured Char B-1 , it was captured in large numbers in france and many were sent to the Eastern front

Too hard to make a multigun Tank model. Same with M-3 Lee, T-28 and T-35.

I think upgrades should look like this:
Basic PzIII (L42) buildable. For unlocking upgrades, you have to do a research in a basebuilding. Then you can upgrade to L60 and L24, the upgrade to StugIII may be done near the tank factory, because such a big upgrade anywhere on the field seems unrealistic to me. So drive your PanzerIII, which you wish to upgrade, back to your base and let it be upgunned (acts ingame like reinforce function, where infantry has to be near building) or like already said something like doctrinal bergepzIII could do this on the field.

I think Wespe should be buildable seperately from pzII, because we already got the upgrade thing with pzIII. Maybe it could be doctrinal, but i am also fine with a buildable wespe.

Back to StugIII: I'd prefer it to have a misc of cromwell and stuart armour, and slightly better gun than StugIV, but not as good as Marders. I like the idea with camo and first shot bonus. :)

Any upgrade of a Pz III on the field into a StuG III is unrealistic ;)
It is a bite more complicated to transfer a "Panzer III Chassis" into a Sturmgeschütz III.

About the StuG III in general:
When StuG was created the main battle operation of this tank was the infantry support with heavy fire BUT from the start von Manstein demand that StuG III could deal with enemy armour so the casemate was construct a bit bigger to carry a bigger gun when needed. Russians heavy tanks and the number of their tanks were the reason that the  inconsiderable and small StuG get more and more a tank hunter, a role von Manstein and the StuG-commanders doesent liked.

So: Out of my view gun upgrades for a tank III are good and fine BUT transferring a PzIII into a StuG III on the battlefield isnt a good idea.

Lord wrote:
Any upgrade of a Pz III on the field into a StuG III is unrealistic ;)
It is a bite more complicated to transfer a "Panzer III Chassis" into a Sturmgeschütz III.

I know, I was only thinking about the best way to realise this idea  ;). Like "So, dear comerades, let's just transfer this to a Stug, i am tired of turning the turret"...

So only the two varaints of pzIII remain, one for at role and the other, similar to PEs panzer IV stubby (same gun), for ai duties. Should both be of same cost? Maybe 50 ammo?

@MaxiKing6
I like your idea with the Panzer III and Stug III thing!The L42 50mm buildable, than the L24 and L60 are upgrades per unit like the PE Panzer IV has the skirts and MG and the Stug III should be a research at the factory like the soviet have and once you make that upgrade you can either build Stug III or if a Panzer III is near the factory you may change that one!Also the Wespe should have the same concept like the Stug III, global upgrade, than from Panzer II near factory or build them directly from the factory!And if you don't have a regular Panzer II and only the Luchs, that the reason why you should have a regular one for the Wespe!

PS: If you really want the Bergepanzer III to be in game than you should make it doctrine specific and serve not only to recover and repair vehicles but also turn Panzer III to Stug III and Panzer II to Wespe on field!

@TheReaper
Yeah i think those will be some cool Stug III variants and i think it would be even better if you build one stock and get to chose a gun between those too, like MaxiKing6 said for the Panzer III!But in my opinion it's better if the standard Stug III has the long barrel so you can tackle stronger tanks faster and the short barrel anti infantry one should be per unit upgrade!

Last edited September 14, 2010 at 7:08 PM by Cozmin95

I think just these two variants needs to be in the OH for StugIII:
http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/tanks/tanks-sd/33162/view/sd_kfz_142_sturmgeschutz_iii_ausf_a__stug_iii_/
and
http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/tanks/tanks-sd/14656/view/sd_kfz_142_1_stug_iii_ausf_f_1943/
maybe with armoured skirts. The F variant would be a little slower, that it's weigt increased wit additional armour and the bigger gun.

Last edited September 14, 2010 at 7:03 PM by TheReaper

@Cozmin95
Thank you! But like Lord Rommel said, its a little unrealistic to do such a big change at the tank on the field, so i think one to be buildable is better, maybe also the idea with salvaging pzIII to stug III. Am I disagreeing to my own argument? ;)

@TheReaper
I like your idea of early StugIII, but when do you think can the player use it? When StugIII enters battlefield, it is up to deal with medium and heavy tanks, the anti infantry duty (which is already done by panzer 3 L24 or even L42) comes to late. But i think it could be included as doctrinal unit. maybe in a tree with elefant/ferdinand as armoured doctrine or something like this. yes, i think, i would like to see it as a middle doctrinal unit (maybe 5 points ;D)

Well...there is an alternative of the Pz III/StuG III "problem".
The magic word: REWARD UNIT.
Perhaps Ostheer could work with this idea ;)

Think would be the best when the player could decide;
Pz III or StuG III or other systems...
Decision are always the best  ;D

Last edited September 14, 2010 at 7:43 PM by Lord Rommel

MaxiKing6 wrote:
@TheReaper
I like your idea of early StugIII, but when do you think can the player use it? When StugIII enters battlefield, it is up to deal with medium and heavy tanks, the anti infantry duty (which is already done by panzer 3 L24 or even L42) comes to late. But i think it could be included as doctrinal unit.

The most produced Wehrmacht "Tank" a doctrinal unit?
Its like saing that Sherman or T-34 should only be doctrinal.

@Paciat
Maybe you misunderstood me. I said that the EARLY stugIII which wasnt produced as much as later versions ( stugIII ausfg G) because, like lord rommel said, von manstein wanted the stugs to be tank killers. and that the anti infantery Role is already taken by pnz3. So we could make an Arrangement and take Lord Rommels Magic word "reward unit". For example for any earlier light Tank because stugIII saw First Action in the war against the French in 1940. I totally agree with you that stugIII has to be included in both ways, because both were Important.

Last edited September 14, 2010 at 8:30 PM by MaxiKing6

Actually LordRommel's idea with the Reward-system is the easiest way how to implement Pz3 and Stug3.

Pz3 starts with 5cm KwK38 L/42 cannon (Ausf. J), with ability to either upgrade to 5cm KwK39 L/60 (Ausf. J¹ or 7.5cm KwK37 L/24 (Ausf. N). Therefore first it's a multi-role-tank, later AT or AI.
Stug3 starts with 7.5cm StuK37 L/24 (Ausf. A-E) and later upgrade to 7.cm StuK40 L/48 (Ausf. F8 or G). So first AI later AT.

As we can see, such a reward-system will have two different types of vehicles and therefore wouldn't be boring either.
However, I doubt it's a that "new" concept.

But Lord Rommel has of course a point in his statement, that Pz3 shouldn't be magically turned into Stug3 in the field.
(That's because Loup and I suggested the Bergepanzer3)
However, conversations weren't really that common.
Only 173 out of about 9000 Stugs were converted Pz3s.  :P

Yeah, Lord Rommel's is the wisest decision. I wonder what Loup will say when read that...

With the appearance of the T-34 and KV tanks, rearming the Panzer III with a longer, more powerful 50-millimetre (1.97 in) cannon was prioritised. The T-34 was generally invulnerable in frontal engagements with the Panzer III until the 50 mm KwK 39 L/60 gun was introduced on the Panzer III Ausf. J¹ in the spring of 1942. This could penetrate the T-34 frontally at ranges under 500 metres (1,600 ft).[3] Against the KV tanks it was a threat if armed with special high velocity tungsten rounds. In addition, to counter antitank rifles, in 1943 the Ausf. L version began the use of spaced armour skirts (schürzen) around the turret and on the hull sides. However, due to the introduction of the upgunned and uparmoured Panzer IV, the Panzer III was, after the Battle of Kursk, relegated to secondary roles, and it was replaced as the main German medium tank by the Panzer IV and the Panther.
By the end of the war the Pz.III had almost no frontline use and many exemplars had been returned to the factories for conversion into turretless assault guns StuG, which were in high demand due to the defensive warfare style adopted by the German Army by then.
The Panzer III was well designed in that it had a three-man offensive crew (gunner, loader and commander), leaving the commander free to concentrate on commanding the tank and maintaining situational awareness. Although other medium tanks of the time also had this feature, most tanks of the late 1930s had fewer than three men in the turret crew, potentially providing the Panzer III with a "fightability" advantage over otherwise similar tanks, such as the French Somua S-35, which only had a one man turret crew.
The Panzer III chassis was the basis for the Sturmgeschütz III assault gun, one of the most successful self-propelled guns of the war, and the single most-produced German armored fighting vehicle design of World War II.

-========-

As Paciat pointed out, this will make the most numerous
German fighting vehicle - Not be present in Wehr, not
be present in PE, and - maybe - be added as a Reward
unit in OstHeer.

- This means the PzIII is the only OstHeer MBT
Therefore it has to be given PanzerIV stats/equivalency.
- Sherman 75 to Sherman 76 were not conversions. There
we factory built that way. I'll point to you that American
is a hell of a lot further away from Normandy than Germany
is from Normandy/East Front. Rail is easier than boat,
besides, and I can guarantee you they didn't send
Shermans back to America and then back to Normandy
(After they had been fighting awhile).
The whole thing was a Rush from the beaches of
Normandy to Berlin.

** Fine, Lord Rommel. No conversions, no StuG3,
PzIII that are PzIV that will fight T34/Sherman on a
1-on-1 basis and be as/more numerous as American
/Russian tanks (5774 versus 75000)

Production history
Designer Daimler-Benz
Designed 1935-1937
Manufacturer Daimler-Benz
Produced 1939–1943
Number built 5,774 (excluding StuG III)

---

Production history
Unit cost 82,500 RM
Number built 9,408 StuG III
1,211 StuH 42
ThatS 9408+1211.

as the Germans faced the formidable T-34, stronger anti-tank guns were needed. Since the Panzer IV had a bigger turret ring, the role was reversed. The Panzer IV mounted the long barreled 7.5 cm KwK 40 gun and engaged in tank-to-tank battles. The Panzer III became obsolete in this role and for most purposes was supplanted by the Panzer IV. From 1942, the last version of Panzer III mounted the 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24, better suited for infantry support. Production of the Panzer III ended in 1943. However, the Panzer III's capable chassis provided hulls for the Sturmgeschütz III until the end of the war.

---

In terms of the resources expended in their construction, the StuG assault guns were extremely cost-effective compared to the heavier German tanks, though in the anti-tank role, it was best used defensively, as the lack of a turret would be a severe disadvantage out in the open. As the German military situation deteriorated later in the war, more and more StuG guns were constructed in comparison to tanks, in an effort to replace losses and bolster defences against the encroaching Allied forces.
--

In 1944, the Finnish Army received 59 StuG III Ausf. Gs from Germany (30 Stu 40 Ausf.G and 29 StuG III Ausf. G) and used them against the Soviet Union. These destroyed at least 87 enemy tanks for a loss of only 8 StuGs[2] (some of these were destroyed by their crews to avoid capture).

--

The vehicles of the Sturmgeschütz series were cheaper and faster to build than contemporary German tanks; at 82,500 RM, a StuG III Ausf G was cheaper than a Panzer III Ausf. M, which cost 103,163 RM. This was due to the omission of the turret, which greatly simplified manufacture and allowed the chassis to carry a larger gun than it could otherwise. By the end of the war, 10,619 StuG IIIs and StuH 42s had been built.[1]

-----
   
Grats.

I demand you buff T70 and Greyhound to be
same strenght as Sherman/T34, and that you make
those two tanks 'Reward' units, too.

Without StuGIII , you'll have to make PzIII equivalent
to the PzIV. Welcome Wehr 1.5.

You're removed the MORE probably German conversions,
for the LESS probably American conversions. Your OstHeer
looks less and less historical, and interesting, every moment.

I remember when you said you didn't want to bring in
Finnish units, etc, because there were still plenty of
German units to bring in.

... What's the point?
When you craft it so UTTERLY wrong from historical canon?

You might as well put Klingon battlecruisers.
There's no difference.

Put in some Leopard II tanks while you're at it :p

Guest Eastern Front stopped being about representing
the Eastern Front :)

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Post Merge: [time]1284529868[/time]

---

- Boring?
Seriously. Sherman75-Sherman76 upgrade makes
even LESS sense.

After the heavy tank losses of the Battle of the Bulge, in January 1945, General Eisenhower asked that no more 75 mm M4s be sent to Europe: only 76 mm M4s were wanted.[42]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_tank

The Sherman 75 wasn't a conversion to the 76. It was
a completely different tank.

So, grats, guys.

I'm serious. Make a boosted Greyhound/T70 replace
the Sherman/T-34 and make those REWARD units.

Last edited September 15, 2010 at 5:51 AM by Loupblanc

I don't know how would fit in the ostheer the StugIII(stubby and AT) and the PzIII(vanila, stubby and AT) they have the same role :'(.

MaxiKing6 wrote:
@Paciat
Maybe you misunderstood me. I said that the EARLY stugIII which wasnt produced as much as later versions ( stugIII ausfg G) because, like lord rommel said, von manstein wanted the stugs to be tank killers. and that the anti infantery Role is already taken by pnz3. So we could make an Arrangement and take Lord Rommels Magic word "reward unit". For example for any earlier light Tank because stugIII saw First Action in the war against the French in 1940. I totally agree with you that stugIII has to be included in both ways, because both were Important.

-
Yea, StuGIII saw action against the French in 1940.
It was a short barrel, then. And the PzIII in those days
had a 37mm cannon.
 
That's why I said StuGIII should be available sooner,
although I wouldn't want it to be god-awesome 'so soon'.
Suggested a series of Nerfs culminating in something
a little deadlier.

...
But who cares anyways?
It won't be included. PzIII will be the main MBT,
and it'll be z PanzerIV-V that can be spammed MORE
than the Sherman/T34.

  Who cares with history, right?
Your ostHeer won't be a historical representation.
- No other countries.
- No StuGIII
- No conversions.
- More German tanks than Russians/Americans.

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Post Merge: [time]1284530916[/time]

---

blackbishop wrote:
I don't know how would fit in the ostheer the StugIII(stubby and AT) and the PzIII(vanila, stubby and AT) they have the same role :'(.

---
Why did Germany make both, then?
Why have StuGIV and PzIV in Wehr, if they have same role?
They have different flavors, but they're not drastically
different even in Wehr.

The PzIII-N came *AFTER* the StuGIII. The StuGIII
was made way-earlier. Reason for PzIII-N is because
the 2 other tanks which had the infantry role (PzIV and
StuGIII were both turned into tank destroyers (long barrel).
Didn't know what to do with the remaining PzIII, so they
made short 75/AI role.

Now, this only makes sense *IF* PzIII is made inferior to
the PzIV (Which it won't apparently). So PzIII-J and pzIII-
N are basically PzIVH and PzIV-AI (PE). No need for StuGIII
short or long barrel, thus the idea of using it as a REWARD
UNIT.

  ... Which makes no sense from a historical point of view.

StuGIII only becomes a reward unit if the PzIII is buffed
accordingly. Out of historical proportions.

It's a Greyhound that kills Tigers, gentlemen.

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Post Merge: [time]1284533341[/time]

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http://ruse.wikia.com/wiki/Panzer_III

This from RUSE!

However, as the Germans faced the formidable T-34, stronger anti-tank guns were needed. Since the Panzer IV had a bigger turret ring, the role was reversed. The Panzer IV mounted the long barreled 7.5 cm KwK 40 gun and engaged in tank-to-tank battles.
In 1939 battles, these tanks will be the highest level of tank available for Germany, and so should be mass produced to make up for it's less powerful 37mm gun. In other eras, Panzer IIIs will become less effective as the game progresses, and should be replaced by more advanced tanks, such as Panzer IVs, Tigers, or Panthers.

---

Thank you for going against history, Lord Rommel :)

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Post Merge: [time]1284533703[/time]

---

5700 PzIII produced (Excluding StuGIII conversions)
And 11,500 StuGIII were produced.

Take out the StuGIII from the equation, since they're
Reward Units and you've got

5700 PzIII against 75,000 T34/Shermans but fighting
1 vs 1 on the battlefield
instead of 5700+11500 (17,000)

Although, to be sure, PzIII have to be cheaper than
T34/Sherman, more numerous, and still be equivalent
(or Stronger!)(Quality, remember?)

Aouch has a swarm concept for the PzIII which assumes
large groups of PzIII.

...

With Germans who can't convert (but did!) against
Americans who can convert (but never did).

When the Klingon Battlecruisers?

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Post Merge: [time]1284534028[/time]

---

The Sherman Jumbo/Sherman 105, although I like the units,
are poorly balanced/thought out, as I discussed with
Black Bishop.

Conversions should be a choice, not a no-brainer.
Sherman Jumbo also has a poor place.

Sherman Jumbo should replace Crocodile (But with a cap?).
Thus giving other doctrines a heavy tank/Hv Crusher.
Sherman 105 should lose it's heavy Crush/Shovel and
replace the Callioppe as it's an artillery tank.
(I also think Sexton should replace Priest)
(And Priest also be potential for Callioppe)(It's american)

Right now, Sherman 105 is same cost as Crocodile,
but it can do everything the Crocodile does... and do it
better. a LOT better. I love the tank. I really, really do.
I even love the ghastly slow turret traverse (Realistic).
I just don't think it replaces the right unit, though.

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Post Merge: [time]1284535816[/time]

---

Pawel Pawlikowski:[1]
“ Both Natalie and Emily were extremely different and very original, which is a rare thing nowadays. They avoid the obvious, and are capable of playing complex and conflicting attitudes. Above all, they had energy, which is key for a movie. When I brought them together for a workshop, I could see them feeding off of each other well, and I knew that this was going to work.

Completely unrelated, but... it explains rather well that
which I was striving for. Something different, that can
bring something new. Not same old in a different skin.
For once.

Magic.

Last edited September 15, 2010 at 7:30 AM by Loupblanc

blackbishop wrote:
I don't know how would fit in the ostheer the StugIII(stubby and AT) and the PzIII(vanila, stubby and AT) they have the same role :'(.

they could, either like lordrommel suggested as one being the reward for the other or like in his old concept when choosing different unit pools. but i wouldn't make much sense including both of them into the same army unless one of them offers something different.

Ghost wrote:
they could, either like lordrommel suggested as one being the reward for the other or like in his old concept when choosing different unit pools. but i wouldn't make much sense including both of them into the same army unless one of them offers something different.

Exactly. The way I see it, the DEVs have three possibilities how to add in Pz3 and Stug3:

Easiest way is for sure the Reward-system.
Both "tanks" are similar yet different enough to add one of them as reward-unit. (Pz3 "J" as gap-filler between light and medium tanks, either AT or AI upgrade. Stug3 "A-E" as AI-"tank" later upgrade to "Ausf. G" = AT)
Next way is again from Lord Rommel, his unit-pool-suggestion. You can have both, however only one of them is buildable at the same time.
Third but the most difficult way, because it needs perfect balancing, is Loupblanc's idea of having first Pz3 and then Stug3. However the way he wants it now, with Pz3 weak as shit and Stug3 beginning as "Ausf. A" which is the same as Pz3 "Ausf. N" doesn't make any sense at all. Plus he desperately tries to enforce "realism", something about neither CoH or EF really bothered.

Therefore I think the DEVs will decide between one of Lord Rommel's suggestions, I tend to say it'll be the first option.

Or they'll surprise us with a fourth option, something nobody took yet into account.  ;)

Last edited September 15, 2010 at 12:08 PM by Aouch

All of u can be sure that i want to see Pz III and Stug III as part of the Ostheer.
Last i can tell u that it was MrScruff's wish to see the StuG III in eastern front.
BUT the hole team had to decided - Ostheer is a team project.

All in all i hope that we - the ef team - will find a way to implement both tanks and i'm sure that there is a way to add both.

Hope we will be able to present u this way as fast as possible.

and @Loupblanc:
U can be sure that history is my love and so i try to find the best way to get the balance between a pc game ( here CoH EF ) and history.

Ghost wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
I don't know how would fit in the ostheer the StugIII(stubby and AT) and the PzIII(vanila, stubby and AT) they have the same role :'(.

they could, either like lordrommel suggested as one being the reward for the other or like in his old concept when choosing different unit pools. but i wouldn't make much sense including both of them into the same army unless one of them offers something different.

---
The StuGIV and the PanzerIV have the same role.
Do you suggest we take the PanzerIV out of Wehr, and
make it a reward unit for the StuGIV?

They DO have the same role.

- - And my PzIIIL42 - PzIIIL60 - StuGIIIF culmination
did offer something different. Especially with conversions.
Something new and unique. Which would have fit nicely
with PzII - Wespe - Marder2 conversions.

Take StuGIIIF away, and you have to buff the PzIII to
PzIV or better than PzIII status for balance's sake.

  That's why StuGIIIF replaced PzIII you know. Because
PzIV had replaced it. And they needed something to do
with all those pesky PzIII still lying around.

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Post Merge: [time]1284563347[/time]

---

@Aouch :
Third but the most difficult way, because it needs perfect balancing, is Loupblanc's idea of having first Pz3 and then Stug3. However the way he wants it now, with Pz3 weak as shit and Stug3 beginning as "Ausf. A" which is the same as Pz3 "Ausf. N" doesn't make any sense at all. Plus he desperately tries to enforce "realism", something about neither CoH or EF really bothered

  - There is a reason why Germany switched from PzIII
to PzIV. Take the PzIV away from OH, and you have to
fall back on the StuGIIIF. Take the StuGIIIF away, you
have to buff PzIII to PzIV levels, as Ouch wants.
(More numerous, earlier, cheaper, and 1-on-1 wins vs
T34/Sherman)

I also want American 75 to 76 conversions (Mass and
in the field, too!) taken away, as if Germany can't have
them, America certainly shouldn't have it.
- If OstHeer is to have any sense.
- It's easier to have PzIII into a real MBT if you take
away T34/Sherman/Pershing/IL2/ISU152, then PzIII can
truly be 'DA' tank.

Movies - Haven't you ever heard of continuity and
suspension of disbelief? It's like saying only the good
guys can hit things (on first shot, too)(from a moving
vehicle) while bad guys forever and eternally miss with
everything? In Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy, there
is just a scene in the end, where 80 some troopers
fire at close range with assault weapons and succeed
in missing with pretty much every shot (except one)
(which is non-fatal).

Works in movies, comedies, even.
Not so much in a strategy game.

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Post Merge: [time]1284563970[/time]

---

Ghost wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
I don't know how would fit in the ostheer the StugIII(stubby and AT) and the PzIII(vanila, stubby and AT) they have the same role :'(.

they could, either like lordrommel suggested as one being the reward for the other or like in his old concept when choosing different unit pools. but i wouldn't make much sense including both of them into the same army unless one of them offers something different.

- You can't have them that way.
** 1) Reward Unit. Reward units can't have upgrades.
So it would either have to be Stubby StuGIII or AT StuGIII.
Either way, it doesn't work.
** 2) As a pool unit one being exclusive to the other.
Might work. As long as they both have upgrades. But
there is one detail. One is much better at AT, and the
other is better at AI (Those machine guns).

I still prefer the PzIIIL42-PzIIIL60-StuGIIIF linear.
Because that's when the StuG became significantly
better than the PzIII.

Small detail. Earlier on, the PzIII was AT.
The StuG and the PanzerIV were the anti infantry tanks.
Then roles were switched around.

Last edited September 15, 2010 at 3:19 PM by Loupblanc

Loupblance...
i cant understand u any more  ???
Panzer III as main tank of an Ostheer could work. Till 1943 Panzer III was the main tank of german Panzer-Divisionen. A trained Pz III crew was able to fight against a T-34 tank. On paper T-34 is better than Pz III but there some point which sap the datas of the T-34 ( e.g. T-34 tanks are nearly blind when command copula and driver door were closed ).
Pz III showed in Italy and in Normandy that it could deal with Sherman tanks, too.
So out of historical view i would say a Pz III is acceptable.

But remember CoH is a computer game which cant simulate the hole reality. So when a real Pz III could destroy a T-34 or a Sherman why should a Ostheer Pz III cant do this? Okay. Perhaps not in a ingame 1on1 situation but perhaps 2 or 3 PzIII could deal with armour like T-34 or Sherman or Cromwell.

And in combination with StuG III there is an other scenario possible; Pz III as main tank fight against enemy's armour. StuG III with a long barreled 7,5cm gun positions behind a group of Pz III as main tank hunter. Enemy's fire could concentrate on Pz III and StuG III could shot down tank by tank ;)

Everything is possible! CoH is a game  :D

Loupblanc wrote:

Small detail. Earlier on, the PzIII was AT.
The StuG and the PanzerIV were the anti infantry tanks.
Then roles were switched around.

Thats exactly what I want ingame. maybe stugIII short barreled and pzIII L42 appearing nearly at same time, maybe with a research from amroured command, and that first stugIII deals with infantry and pzIII with light vehicles/tanks, up to T70/T90 or M8 and Stuart. Then, to raise firepower and effectivity, stugIII goes for killing tanks with the long barreled gun and pzIII is not that important anymore, except of killing infantry with the short barelled gun of ausf. N, so L24. So its historical correct and everyone has what he wants. But will pzIII and stugIII be the heaviest tanks buildable? or will there be a tiger or another tank already existing?

Last edited September 15, 2010 at 3:59 PM by MaxiKing6

Well. Ostheer will need a second, a stronger tank.
With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II  ;)

@Lord Rommel
That's why I asked  ;D
Are there any plans by the devs to include a bigger tank?

Mmm I Vote for Battlegroup Call Ins!

Buildable Tigers sound OP and we have enough Panther for a lifetime :P

@Lord Rommel :
My idea was, essentially,
PzIIIL42 as StuGIV
PzIIIL60 as PzIV / PzIIIL24(75) as FlakPanzer
StuGIIIF as Panther. Equivalencies/Roles, I said.
(Small note: Notice FlakPanzer doesn't have skirts)
If you take away StuGIIIF, then you need to buff PzIII to
Panther level. Which is what Aouch wants.

* 2-3 PzIII killing T34/Sherman with numerical superiority.
Explain to me how 5700 tanks overwhelm 75,000 tanks with
their numerical superiority?

* PzIII/StuGIIIF combos. Yes. EXACTLY what I want.
* Sure, StuGIIIF can deal with IS2, with First Strike/
Ambush. It would definitively give it a reason for being.
No, I don't propose to make it uber ;) Just give it enough
flaws to justify giving it nice Pros. Also, I'd make it a
weaker Marder/StuGIV kinda combo. Similar to SU85/100.
Keeping it in the AT role would justify keeping PzIII around.

** Lord Rommel : Oh, I know T34 is better on paper,
but Poor training (most crews couldn't even read), and
horrible turret ergonomics (PzIII - 3 people in turret,
T34 (early) 2 people in turret) - PzIII crew had experience,
T34 crew usually didn't (till late in war). But they still
had HUGE HUGE advantage in production. Somewhere,
that ought to show somewhere.

  Of course PzIII can work as OstHeer MBT, but please
give it a different flavor than PzIV.

I suggested giving it 8 pop/Tank (To keep numbers down)
Fatal Sidegrades (They gain something with a flaw)
(L60 can't IF and L24 can't AT)
Tungsten shots (expensive but balances things) to
balance having LOWER HEALTH THAN PzIV.
Skirts upgrade is nice too.
The Stuart was an example. But I was actually thinking
around StuGIV health.
PzIII being able to have infantry follow/cover is nice, too.

StuGIII being needed for consistant tank fighting keeps
PzIII from overwhelming the map with sheer superiority.

You heavily risk giving OstHeer a Russian 'feel'
(Tons of Units, but better units, with Vet). Doesn't balance.

@Ryousan :
Oh, I agree with Battlegroup call-ins. I wanted the Soviets
to have a PE_Dual Panther similar call-in (with 2 T34, with
2 squads)(Upgradeable from 1 T34 + 1 squad). I also agree
that we have enough Panthers for a lifetime, as well.
And yea, buildable Tigers sounds very op.

@Maxiking6 :
Bigger tank. Well Elefant, for starts.
Nashorn, as well (Marder4 kinda).

Lord Rommel :
Have StuGIIIF deal with Russian JS-2.
Give Germans a 'feel'.

I think I'll have to agree with Lord Rommel forever.  ;)
Everytime he says something, it's just right.

Lord wrote:
Panzer III as main tank of an Ostheer could work. Till 1943 Panzer III was the main tank of german Panzer-Divisionen. A trained Pz III crew was able to fight against a T-34 tank. On paper T-34 is better than Pz III but there some point which sap the datas of the T-34 ( e.g. T-34 tanks are nearly blind when command copula and driver door were closed ).
Pz III showed in Italy and in Normandy that it could deal with Sherman tanks, too.
So out of historical view i would say a Pz III is acceptable.

Exactly. But that's a fact some people here don't want to hear.  :)

Lord wrote:
But remember CoH is a computer game which cant simulate the hole reality. So when a real Pz III could destroy a T-34 or a Sherman why should a Ostheer Pz III cant do this? Okay. Perhaps not in a ingame 1on1 situation but perhaps 2 or 3 PzIII could deal with armour like T-34 or Sherman or Cromwell.

And in combination with StuG III there is an other scenario possible; Pz III as main tank fight against enemy's armour. StuG III with a long barreled 7,5cm gun positions behind a group of Pz III as main tank hunter. Enemy's fire could concentrate on Pz III and StuG III could shot down tank by tank ;)

That's actually exactly the situation I would like to see in CoH.  8)

QuoteWell. Ostheer will need a second, a stronger tank.
With Panzer III or StuG III u cant deal with russians JS-II

Another point here, which is just right.
Whenever Loupblanc comes with his "Remove all tanks and make Pz3 kill IS-2, because it has to be so, otherwise a Pz3 won't function"-argument, he seems to completely forget that Pz3 and Stug3 will perhaps be not the only tanks of the Ostheer.  ;)
(Sorry, but that's true. I know I can be an asshole sometimes...)

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Loupblanc wrote:
If you take away StuGIIIF, then you need to buff PzIII to
Panther level. Which is what Aouch wants.

I'll try and say it a last time:
I want Pz3 J (L/42) as gap-filler between Stuart and Sherman.
Give them the British-slow-movement-con to prevent early rush and enforce "move as group"-tactic.
Pz3 J¹ as counter for Sherman75 and T-34/76. Sure, Panther can also deal with those, but Pz3 can't deal with /85. So sorry, I don't get your argument.  ???

Loupblanc wrote:
* 2-3 PzIII killing T34/Sherman with numerical superiority.
Explain to me how 5700 tanks overwhelm 75,000 tanks with
their numerical superiority?

* PzIII/StuGIIIF combos. Yes. EXACTLY what I want.

Soviets hadn't many T-34 in 1942. That's when the Pz3 was on the battlefield. T-34 were produced till 1945. Pz3 weren't.
So you can't compare numbers. (Same for Sherman BTW!)
Also, Germans had different tank-tactics than Allies. Pz3 were used as armored spearhead, while Allies normally supported their infantry with tanks, therefore Pz3 could take out enemy tanks because they were actually more. (In that situation).
Later, Stug3/Pz3 combo like Lord Rommel suggested is the way to go. (I still think we've some ideas in common, Loup ;) )

Loupblanc wrote:
Lord Rommel :
Have StuGIIIF deal with Russian JS-2.
Give Germans a 'feel'.

Same here. Stug3 shouldn't deal with IS-2 alone, like Pz3 shouldn't deal with T-34 alone.  :)

Last edited September 15, 2010 at 4:43 PM by Aouch

@Aouch : Sigh. Boot licking Lord Rommel's posts
saying something is right because he said it...

Lord Rommel's comments CONTRADICT one another :p
- You can't have StuGIIIF as a REWARD unit (which you
agreed to), (It won't be able to upgrade)(And it means
PzIII has to take over it's AT role).
- If PanzerIII and StuGIIIF appear in same force, then
it's not a reward unit :p
- I know PzIIIL60 can kill T34/Sherman. But how do you
represent the PzIV replaced the PzIII as a MBT?
- What won't work is you want PzIII to be MORE numerous
than T34/Sherman *AND* to kill them 1-on-1. That 'feel'
should be Russian/American tanks.

You are giving PzIII the 'Spam'/Better production of
Americans/Russians *WITH* German better quality.

Can't you see how that makes no sense?

I never said a PzIII couldn't destroy a T34/Sherman.
What I mean is that while a PzIII can destroy a T34/
Sherman, it'll have trouble when it's facing 3-4 T34
/Shermans. Which is where the Uber Tiger tanks come in.

If you want an alternative to Tiger/Panther, then
StuGIIIF comes in.

Makes for more interesting play.
And StuGIII *IS MOST NUMEROUS GERMAN TANK OF WAR*

--------------
* Remove conversions from Germans, give conversions to
America (75 to 76mm) makes no sense. Not historical.
* Making StuGIII a reward unit is like making T34/Sherman
a Reward Unit.
* Last I checked, I didn't know PzIII had numerical
superiority against StuGIII. Especially late-war (Battle
of France, maybe)(Never after)
* T34/Sherman was enough of an issue for PzIII that
they SWITCHED to the PzIV/StuGIIIF for AT duty. How
do you propose to demonstrate that?

--
* Other tanks will be Marder4 (Nashorn) a Tiger-Level
AT tank (Weak armor, Flak88 Range). Should be doctrinal.
(And Capped). And move like a Hummel.
* And Elefant (also doctrinal)
--
* Maybe Panther and Tigers, too.
(But then why not put PanzerIV?) = You've got Wehr 1.5

Sorry, Loup. I didn't know that reward-units couldn't be upgraded. Maybe I played too much CoH with PE's Stubby since I can't have this lovely little French Hotchkiss tank.

About the production-numbers: Read my post above yours.

Historical is also a thing I'll say the last time: Lord Rommel being an historian himself does actually say:

QuoteEverything is possible! CoH is a game

In the end I don't mind what the DEVs add in which way. I just want an Ostheer which is fun to play, has a new gameplay-fealing, new units and doesn't rely solely on Stugs.

@Aouch :
You specifically said you wanted PzIIIL60+tungsten
to kill T34/85 and Sherman76. 1-on-1 AND have numerical
superiority.
- You can't have PzIII num superiority AND have StuGIII
(Then you'd have 6 to 1)
- Lord Rommel said he didn't want PzIII and StugIII together.
Then he said they could fight together. You can't agree to
both and still make sense.
-------
- As for PzIII/German armored spearheads.
Well, allies used tank armies too for armored spearheads.
COH is 1944-1945. Not 1941-1942. Also, the basic idea
is REGIONAL superiority. Which is a basic German Tenet.
And one I completely agree with. But you can't make a
game where the Germans 'are always at their best'.

That came at a cost : Of no German tanks elsewehre.
(Which is what StuG were for, actually. They were
part of Artillery corps)(!!!!) to offer tanks when 'tank
armies' were not present. (StuG are SPG, not Tanks).

So, essentially, you are saying that you want OstHeer
to always be 'the armored spearhead' ;) (At their best,
all the time). Doesn't work.

Although I will say this :
FINE. Make it a doctrinal tree, then. That way, if you
really want to be 'The Armored regional superiority'
OstHeer, you should give up something for it (aka :
a Doctrinal Tree). Your OstHeer idea has no flaws.
It's all : My idea is very good. I got 16 Queens. And
other has 16 pawns. This will be fun :)

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Aouch wrote:
Sorry, Loup. I didn't know that reward-units couldn't be upgraded. Maybe I played too much CoH with PE's Stubby since I can't have this lovely little French Hotchkiss tank.

About the production-numbers: Read my post above yours.

Historical is also a thing I'll say the last time: Lord Rommel being an historian himself does actually say:

QuoteEverything is possible! CoH is a game

In the end I don't mind what the DEVs add in which way. I just want an Ostheer which is fun to play, has a new gameplay-fealing, new units and doesn't rely solely on Stugs.

- I really thought Reward Units can't have upgrades...
Then you said it : Hotchkiss tank - which has 2 upgrades :
Stuka and long barrel upgrade. Insert foot in mouth.
I'm the one giving the apology here.
- I never asked for OstHeer to rely solely on StuGs.
I like the PzIII, and like having it included in OstHeer.
I just don't think it should be equal of PzIV/T34/Sherman.
(Or even as numerous, ack!)

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Bad example, here, but you'll get my point, I hope.
It's like saying America has best Karateka fighters because
they have Chuck Norris.

So then allow America faction to have 'buildable'/'trainable'
Chuck Norris with no cap. They're all chuck Norris. And USA
should have better melee units because they Chuck Norris.
And, no, Chuck Norris can't be killed, then neither should his
clones be killable. They are THAT bad-ass.

Would you find playing AGAINST chuck-Norris america
fun in the least? But why? I'd think it's nice and fun for
me to play Chuck-Norris america against yours
(with no historical basis, either - hey, it's just a game).

Last edited September 15, 2010 at 5:00 PM by Loupblanc