ostheer medium tanks

Loupblanc wrote:
@TheReaper :

Ah, but you heard LordRommel...
Germans must win every fight. It's not about making a side
interesting or even different. That's why no finnish, rumanian
or anything. That's why Pacific Expansion will be about Tiger
Armies racing atop the oceans sinking flying B17 formations :p
Remember, pearl harbor was about Germans attacking.

LordRommel is a historian, he's have some good points even he's sometimes annoying. German Military SS forces had the military cooperation and brothership. That was the key for the succes of the "quality" and cooperation.
Historical background:
1943 July 13 a German Battlegroup ordered to push forward to soviet lines commanded by Dragunsky field marshall, who digged in their troops. In the German side there was
-11 Tiger
-72 Panzer 4
-16 Panzer 2 and Panzer 3
-30 Assault guns and Wespe SPA

After battle results in losses:
Soviets: 536 tanks
Germans: 89 tanks and assault guns

For the "zeal" I prefer this:
I was thinking about the veterancy system, that should be. I think the Hero Soliders started to appear in the EF, it could be done in the Ostheer. But that was told, there only 3 level of vet in coh, no chance adding a 4th one. My idea is that each level of vet gets an aura, that gives bonuses to accuracy to nearby units, like the british captian (not that much), or in Vet3 it can be upgrade to "Hero" that gives aura bonus to nearby units. It changes the look of the tank, that most of the heroes made custumozation to their vehicles, and the enemy can spot the hero unit. So the vet system works as the britis captain for everyone, or as an upgrade. It contain:
- faster reload time
- faster turning speed
- faster turret rotation
- heroic charge
- sprint
- camo
It reflects that the soliders work as a team. Yes ideas like the turret rotation speed is a bit strange, but it reflects, that the tank reacting faster, than an unexperienced crew. And for the ralism I must say a word: Pershing. :D  8)

Last edited September 20, 2010 at 11:25 AM by TheReaper

I mentioned this a dozen pages back or something, but the zeal can also represent the fact that German tanks had excellent radio communication between each other.

To end the "I am the better historian" conflict between Lord Rommel and Loupblanc, we shouldn't let CoH be affected by too much realism. The best way is to balance gameplay. Remember, in a skirmish the Germans are able to beat the Allies, in reality 'on the wholle frontline' they werent.
The whole last 6 or 7 pages are full off (sorry, but its true) Loups complaints about the others suggestions. But I think we have together the core of the idea, the last pages contain (with some exceptions) the same stuff. Again and again. To conclude it:

Early PzIII. Comes with 50mm KwK38 L42, appears after Stuart and M8 or T70, but before Sherman/Cromwell/T34 arrive.
Upgrade to either 50mm KwK39 L60  (Better AT) or 75mm KwK 37 (Better AI) for Ammunition.
Then let Sherman, Cromwell and T34 come. With the appearing of T34 (like it was in reality) Germans realise that they need heavier guns to keep up with soviets. StugIII comes. Not with the short barreled AI gun, but with the 75mm StuK 40 (a slightly modified PAK as far as I remember. Let it be able to camouflage, and lock down for the defensive aims.
IS 2, maybe Pershing and Firefly are coming. Now we have to discuss (we should take one of the already mentioned) what comes to counter those heavy tanks. I'd say capped tiger, only one, callin from HQ (needs some conditions to be buildable to avoid it coming to early, maybe just like PEs Panthers which need all buildings and nearly all upgrades). Make it a little weaker than the Tiger of WM, but strong enough to be better than IS2.

I don't want to attack anyone, I'd just like a little more substancial progress. ;)

I dont start and dont want a "conflict".
My problem is that creating a new faction needs so much details and point which had to be clarified.

I dont want to push u into a special direction.
It is my job to show where are weak points of an idea or concept and that is the reason for my "counter position".
Good ideas can just created out of discussion and time.

Some ideas out of this board are great but not all of them could be part of the Ostheer.
It is a hard process to find the best parts for the Ostheer.

About foreign nations:
Well. I think we had finished this point already.
The problem with foreign troops is that we cant add all of them!
Think of the board history. When we wont add nation x some of the board trolls start to cry. When we wont add nation y the other group will start crying and complaining.
Nations are a problem. "Germans" are the best solution because they "initialised" the war at the eastern front. So they are a key element.
When Ostheer get foreign troops they had to be presented in a special kind to no affront or anger someone.

Hope u understand my point.
No "board war" ;)
Just a lot of discussions and topics  ;)

Allright then :)

Lord wrote:

It is my job to show where are weak points of an idea or concept and that is the reason for my "counter position".
Good ideas can just created out of discussion and time.

+1

Doesn't that translate into german auto-win, though?

If Protoss can make more zealots, faster, than Zerg can
make Zerglings... where is the balance, here?

@Loupblanc:
Sometimes i have the strange feeling that u can react like a child sometimes ;)
Anyone want a "auto win faction". Thought that this is one of the key elements of a new mod: creating a new, balanced, not auto winning faction.

So i think we dont need any Starcraft comparison here ( small personal note: i cant like starcraft so i have no ideas about the intent of your comparison  :P ).

All in all like i had already written: good ideas need time and discussions!

Wow you guys have really taken to this thread great job.

heres some of my ideas though forgive me if you have already posted this but I last checked this thread back at page 16 so there no way im reading ALL of that text.

*Panzer III can and probably should outnumber t34 and shermans early game because they are inferior designs to both tanks. Also the fact that in 1941 and 1942 to a lesser extent there were swarms of german tanks (mainly panzer III) swarming across Russia and there were very few T-34 and KV tanks to begin with. However as the war progressed the german tanks began to be replaced and upgrade while more and more T-34's were pumped. So how does this relate to the game? Make the panzer III cheap and numerous yet inferior to the t34 and sherman to begin with but give it upgrades or replacements or whatever later on to show the shift in more allied tanks and fewer but better german tanks.

*Stug III is cool but imo its a slightly smaller StugIV and I'd rather see other tank destroyers.

*The Panzer II Luch WILL be in the ostheer as proven by spoilers so it will be early game and it will probably be something comparable to the armoured cars of the Panzer elite or something simmilar to the Stuarts used by the brits.

Will contribute later but I've got uni work to do  ::)

The panzer 3 with 50mm gun should be just weeker than the T-34 but it should have good accreacy and number of abilaties to let it compete after the kill ratio of tanks was 8:1 to the germans in 1942 but when bigger tanks come out have panzer 4's and tiger's to face them

Versedhorison wrote:

*Stug III is cool but imo its a slightly smaller StugIV and I'd rather see other tank destroyers.

What tankdestroyer would you like to see then? Nashorn was rare. Marder III we already have, like also JagdpanzerIV, V, and VI. Hetzer is included, StuGIV too. Sure, there are some alternatives to StugIII, but you can't ignore it to be the most produced german armoured fighting vehicle in world war II. It also owns the same gun that StugIV has, has the same armour (up to 80mm) and the same top speed of 40km/h or 25 mph. The StuGIII is actually 70mm longer than StuGIV (with barrel), 50mm wider and 50mm lower. StuGIV has only been built, because Alketts Factory was heavily damaged by a bombing run in September 1943. So Daimler Benz and Krupp were ordered to build another Sturmgeschütz on Panzer IV's hull.
I wish that it will be in Ostheer :)

MaxiKing6 wrote:
[...]What tankdestroyer would you like to see then? Nashorn was rare. Marder III we already have, like also JagdpanzerIV, V, and VI. Hetzer is included, StuGIV too. [...]

well, compared to the number of ostwind (~50) and wirbelwind (~100) tanks the nashorn wasn't rare. the existing vehicles (~473) were mostly used on the eastern front and were quite successful.
another option as a tankhunter would be the marder II.

Personally I would love to see nashorns and maybe marder I or II would be nice too. Elefant/Ferdinand is pretty much gauranteed as well.

@Ghost
AA Tanks and tank destroyers are a whole different thing ;) Also these were made by Relic, and they also included Bergetiger and a StuH42 on PanzerIV hull...
Marder 2 sounds also nice to me, because there were many wishes for PanzerII to be included, but until now we just saw the Version of Ausf. L with the different chassis. Elefant Ferdinand is like Versedhorison said nearly guaranteed in the Ostheer, but as to-one-capped doctrinal callin.
I only said that when I think of tank destroyers on eastern front, StuGIII is standart because it was produced around 10.000 times.
But I can imagine Nashorn also as doctrinal unit or latgame tankdestroyer.. like it is in BK-Mod (no worries, Eastern Front stays the 'one and only' mod ;))

the wehr geschützwagen is a marder I build on hotchkiss chasis.

@MaxiKing6
i just wanted to point out that we already have plenty of vehicles in coh and EF that were produced in low numbers (e.g. pershing with 8 and "bergetiger" with 1-3, t-90 few prototypes).

i think ostheer tanks could be:
- panzer II as recon/early light tank
- panzerjäger I as early tankhunter vs. light tanks and vehicles
- panzer III as medium tank
- stug III as medium tankhunter and inf support
- marder II as tankhunter
- sturmpanzer IV as anti-inf tank
- nashorn as late game tankhunter
- elefant should be part of a doctrine

Ghost wrote:

i think ostheer tanks could be:
- panzer II as recon/early light tank
- panzerjäger I as early tankhunter vs. light tanks and vehicles
- panzer III as medium tank
- stug III as medium tankhunter and inf support
- marder II as tankhunter
- sturmpanzer IV as anti-inf tank
- nashorn as late game tankhunter
- elefant should be part of a doctrine

Panzer II, Panzer III, StuGIII, Marder II I agree.

Panzerjäger I just saw action in France 1940 and in the east until 1942, when all vehicles where pulled off from th front because their firepower wasn't sufficient against T34 and KV1. I don't think we need such an early-game tankdestroyer, Panzer III can do it.

Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär. Here's the number of production the problem. There were only 306.

Nashorn. I don't know what to think about it yet ;)

See. we don't have to include tons of tanks. You just listed seven tanks. Wehrmacht has 4 buildable, PE just 3, USA the same and Brits have also 4. We don't need 2 tanks for every purpose. Germans had also lots of interesting halftracks and armoured cars, which can deal with infantry and light vehicles. And don't forget the infantry  ;)

Bu this thread is not about halftracks or armoured cars, its about tanks. I think Ostheer should have 4 buildable tanks, thats all.
Panzer II, Panzer III, Stug III and a yet unknown we are about to suggest  :D

MaxiKing6 wrote:
Panzer II, Panzer III, StuGIII, Marder II I agree.

SdKfz7/1 is better than PzII becouse it will serve in a AA role too.

3rd Marder? Come on. This idea is worst than a 3rd PzIV and 3rd Panther or a 3rd Shreck. Ostheer dosnt need mid game Marders if it will have Stugs. It needs A late game TD - Nashorn.

Paciat wrote:
3rd Marder? Come on. This idea is worst than a 3rd PzIV and 3rd Panther or a 3rd Shreck.

First, it wasn't my idea, its been said several times on the last few pages. Marder II could serve as a reward unit for StugIII just like in WM.

But SdKFZ 7/1 is okay. But it doesn't need to replace PzII, both can be included.

i never said i want all tanks included. i just listed the tanks and possible roles. nothing more nothing less.
there was a screen of a panzer II model so it's quite likely to be part of OH or a reward unit.
as mentioned before: number of tanks built is not important. if you go for numbers only then you would have to use panzer II, III, IV, panther and tiger.
let's not forget that just ~90 elefants were built and it's likely to be included as well.
sturmpanzer IV saw a lot of action in kursk battle.

about marder: why not? it was used on eastern front and it would not be the same as marder I or III. it's like saying "why panzer II or III we already have panzer IV"  ::)

Last edited September 21, 2010 at 8:18 PM by Ghost

It makes me nuts when you people say : Who cares how many
were built?

- Said no Finnish T34/StuIII because lots of not-yet-put-in-game
German units...

Solution : More Tigers, More Panthers, More PanzerIV...

- Said number built not important. Fine, let's change American
faction so no shermans, no garand rifle, nothing they actually
used. Same for Soviets. Remove T34, Moshin Nagand, etc. And
only put experimental units and models or units from WW1
(but buff them so they can take on King Tiger)(Renaud 1 anyone?)

* No StuIIIF ? Fine. Delete T34/Sherman, then. That's basically
what you just said, ghost. And anyone who doesn't think StuIII
should have #1 medium tank spot in OstHeer (along with PzIII)

* Details. I've been playing BF1942:FH0.7 lately, and doing
a little more research. Stuart is TINY!! And PzIII and PzIV seemed
to be about the same size (Almost). So, yea, could work as a
T34/Sherman wannabe. But I *INSIST* it have various side-grades
instead of UP-grades (Skirts excepted). That's why went PzIV,
remember? And you DID say OstHeer would explore DIFFERENT
units. Or give us captured T34's (I'd love those for North group)
as a call-in. The zeal/slow unit *NERF* works pretty good, too.
: I wouldn't want to limit it to just PzIII, though.

** I'm fine with Elefant, Weakened Tiger (Zeal rule too)(limit 1),
Marder2, Wespe, etc. Nashorn (would take Elefant doctrine slot)
(Would be that doctrine's 'King Tiger' slot)(KV2, whatever).

** I want PzIII/StuIII as their 'Sherman/T34'. No PzIV.
As for saying StuIII is just a StuIV... error.
StuIV is a DOWNGRADE for the PzIV.
StuIII is a UPGRADE for the PzIII. Also #1 killer of Russian tanks
in WW2. Cmon.

Otherwise, you might as well give buffed Stuarts to OstHeer and
say it's not about history. Who cares about history. And Give
OstHeer Klingon Battlecruisers.

* Lord Rommel :
I know I'm not perfect. But at least I am totally devoted to
flavorful balance. Not 'My faction has to auto-win'. The Conversion
idea is actually very good. Please consider it.
PzII - Wespe - Marder 2.
PzIII - StuIII - BergerPanzerIII? (Just putting it in there) :)
        - PzIIIJ
        - PzIIIN

Detail : PzIII to PzIIIJ/N conversions were done at FACTORY.
Not 'in the field'. So PzIII to StuIII isn't any different.

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@Lord Rommel :
As for the Starcraft2 reference.
Zerg is a very low quality, very high quantity faction.
The Zergling is the conscript.
Protoss is a very high quality, very low quantity faction.
The Zealot is the KCH - King's cross holder.

Your comments, essentially, were that OstHeer would have
King Tigers with no caps at the cost of Pioneers. 'Because
Germany should always win'. That Germany should have
Speed, Quality AND Quantity advantages over every other
faction. ... and that's wrong.

Last edited September 22, 2010 at 5:42 AM by Loupblanc

Dudes what are you arguing for; maybe the devs already took a decision and are letting us talk till the Ostheer is done! ::)
But if anyone listening this is what tanks i want the Ostheer to have:
-Panzer III L/42(L/60 and L/24 upgrade like skirts and mg on Stubby)
-StuG III as a global upgrade like Light Tankovy Support and once that upgrades is done you can either build them or replace from Panzer III near Factory like a squad near buildings
-Panzer II so we don't have to make the Wespe doctrinal
-Wespe same thing as StuG III and it upgrades from Panzer II
-Panzer II Luchs
And those are all the units i want to see buildable! :)

@Loupblanc

are you serious  ::)

QuoteSaid number built not important. Fine, let's change American
faction so no shermans, no garand rifle, nothing they actually
used.

so you didn't get the point. all i said was that you can't design the ostheer faction looking for the most used vehicles. cause if you do we will have panzer IV, panther and tiger again. but we are looking to include other vehicles as well to offer something new.
not like relic ("bergetiger") but vehicles that have actually been used. but sometimes you cannot be 100% historically accurate for balance reasons. keep in mind it's a game not a historical simulation.

and stop complaining about "german auto win"  ::) maybe you haven't noticed but we are looking for balanced suggestions  ;)

As far as I can see, EVERYONE in this thread who posted within the last 3 pages agreed with the PzIII/StugIII thing.  ;)
But for some reason, a very special person keeps on talking about numbers of tanks used, about stupid Starcraft-comparisons and removing Sherman and T-34 from existing factions.  ???

I really don't get it. Everyone agreed. Everyone mentioned that CoH isn't about 100%-realism.
Could please at least someone explain to me, why this person keeps on posting if the discussion died 4 pages ago, because nearly everybody agreed?
Seriously.

A small résumé:

Panzer II:
We present u Ausf. L - know as Luchs Spähpanzer.

Panzer III:
Tank is already confirmed. We have present u pics of the
Pz III Ausf. J with 5cm KwK L/60 and Pz III Ausf. N with 7,5cm KwK L/24.
So u can be sure that Pz III will be a part of the Ostheer.

Panzer IV:
Community is divided.
Number of user want to see Pz IV - number of user wont see Pz IV

Panzer V "Panther":
Same like Pz IV.

Panzer VI "Tiger":
Same like Pz IV.

All in all we have found a lot of reason FOR AND AGAINST each of this tanks ( PzIII, IV, V and VI ).
The final question is - out of my view - which tank fits best into Ostheer concept.
So the final decision will be consistent with the final Ostheer idea and concept.
THAT is the next stap of this discussion.

Like Aouch said: This thread died some pages ago. Everything is said.
You can reactivated this discussion when dev team had present u the final Ostheer concept.

Till this moment i think we hadnt something new for this thread, or?
So i wont close this thread BUT when the next posts are spam posts or recapitulations of known stuff i have to close here ;)

Lord wrote:


All in all we have found a lot of reason FOR AND AGAINST each of this tanks ( PzIII, IV, V and VI ).
The final question is - out of my view - which tank fits best into Ostheer concept.
So the final decision will be consistent with the final Ostheer idea and concept.
THAT is the next stap of this discussion.

Like Aouch said: This thread died some pages ago. Everything is said.
You can reactivated this discussion when dev team had present u the final Ostheer concept.

Till this moment i think we hadnt something new for this thread, or?
So i wont close this thread BUT when the next posts are spam posts or recapitulations of known stuff i have to close here ;)

Well theres the problem, we aside from the dev's don't know what the actual concept and direction of the ostheer is gonna be so we can't really make a discussion about how certain tanks would be consistent with a concept we don't know about. So far this thread has been a mix of wishlisting and arguements over people opinions. On the other hand there have been useful posts over people making ideas and plans for how certain tanks would work if they were in the mod at all. This kind of discussion about how certain tanks can work in the mod is what this thread should be about despite my original post. Anything else is just reiterations of what people have been over before and is now pointless. so for starters...

In terms of German tanks in general:
*Panzer I isn't confirmed. I personally see it working just like the T-90 but maybe a bit weaker vs vehicles. OR make it the command tank version like what the brits have except giving different effects.
*Panzer II Luchs IS in the ostheer. I personally see it working on a similar level to that of the T-70 or of the Armoured Cars.
*Panzer 35t and 38t Isn't confirmed. I personally see them as somewhere in between the panzer II and panzer III in terms of everything.
*Panzer III IS in the ostheer. I personally see it coming into play T3 as something initially weaker, cheaper and more numerous than the t-34, sherman, Panzer IV, cromwell and Stug IV to an extent. However I see it gaining upgrades to continue its usefulness later on in the game as a specialized tank being less numerous and more expensive. So of course give it better armour and a better or specialized gun eg maybe to give it something like treadbreaker to help support T4 ostheer tanks or make it like the Panzer elite panzer IV since it did get a short barreled 75mm gun IRL.
*Panzer IV Isn't confirmed. The way I see it you've got the Wehrmacht version with the big gun or the Panzer Elite version with the little gun unless there is another version I am unaware of.
*Panzer V Panther Isn't Confirmed. There really is only one way to do this thing and imo it probably should be in the ostheer because every faction needs some heavy(ish) tank that comes in late game and isn't doctrine specific.
*Panzer VI Tiger Isn't Confirmed. probably doesn't need to be in the ostheer gameplay wise although that just depends on the final ostheer concept and how they play. The debate over whether it should be a doctrine call in or buildable continues however imo having it buildable would be nicer to free up more doctrine slots for cool new stuff that already isn't in the game.
*Panzer VI Tiger II Isn't confirmed. If it does get in the ostheer make it with the henchel turret.

I might go into assault guns and TD later but I'll leave it at that for now.

Lord wrote:FOR AND AGAINST[/b] each of this tanks ( PzIII, IV, V and VI ).
The final question is - out of my view - which tank fits best into Ostheer concept.
So the final decision will be consistent with the final Ostheer idea and concept.
THAT is the next stap of this discussion.

Like Aouch said: This thread died some pages ago. Everything is said.
You can reactivated this discussion when dev team had present u the final Ostheer concept.

Till this moment i think we hadnt something new for this thread, or?
So i wont close this thread BUT when the next posts are spam posts or recapitulations of known stuff i have to close here ;)

Thank you very much.

Aouch wrote:
As far as I can see, EVERYONE in this thread who posted within the last 3 pages agreed with the PzIII/StugIII thing.  ;)
But for some reason, a very special person keeps on talking about numbers of tanks used, about stupid Starcraft-comparisons and removing Sherman and T-34 from existing factions.  ???

I really don't get it. Everyone agreed. Everyone mentioned that CoH isn't about 100%-realism.
Could please at least someone explain to me, why this person keeps on posting if the discussion died 4 pages ago, because nearly everybody agreed?
Seriously.

Correct  ;)

You all know why I don't take parts on these types of topics?

- Why, seeme?

- Non historical mod : Why make Germans be ostHeer, then?
It might as well be Japanese against the Soviets. I mean, history
or reality isn't a factor here, right?
- #1 Tank in Germany army not represented in ANY of the three
factions... ... Yes. That's like removing the Sherman and T34 from
the Americans and Soviets. It really is.
- My point with the PzIII. I don't have a problem with the PzIII
being there, as long as it's relationship to the StuIII is there, too.
My ISSUE. Is that if you compare it's role against the PzIV...
The OstHeer PzIII will be 1) As powerful, as solid. 2) Cheaper.
3) More numerous. 4) Earlier. That's 4 advantages against the
PzIV. How is there balance in that?

  Seriously, you won't need OstHeer to have a tank destroyer
if there's 3x PzIII (each superior to the T34) at point blank as
the first T34 rolls out. Then it'll be 4 against 1, 5 against 1...

  I still think my idea is 1) Historical, 2) Balanced.

  How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??

A thousand apologies for my rant like form of expression,
I think those are serious considerations to think about.

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I'm even in agreement over PzII, MarderII, Wespe.
I hope wespe wouldn't be 100% stats of Priest, though.

I'm even in agreement over BUILDABLE Tiger Mk1. But with in-
built weaknesses. Like IS-2. It had it's place on the Eastern Front.

Ah, I'm sorry. It's true. non-historical.
Well, put Leopard II and King Tiger MkVI, then. Although KT was
clearly Western Front, not East Front :)
(Or was it JagTiger? Now I'm confused)

Last edited September 22, 2010 at 11:50 PM by Loupblanc

Loupblanc wrote:
  How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??

+1

Loupblanc wrote:
  How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??

no one ever mentioned that. and pls stop making big senseless posts like that. it takes time to read it and offers NOTHING that makes sense, sorry but it had be said  :-X

Yes it's been mentionned. And the whole point of the argument
is that it's unbalanced and game breaking.

Just wait for LordRommel reading this... the thread will be closed :-X.

Ghost wrote:

Loupblanc wrote:
  How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??

no one ever mentioned that. and pls stop making big senseless posts like that. it takes time to read it and offers NOTHING that makes sense, sorry but it had be said  :-X

Well, I have to agree with him.

Loupblanc wrote:

Yes it's been mentionned. And the whole point of the argument
is that it's unbalanced and game breaking.

I'll search for that post.

EDIT: I didn't found such post.

Last edited September 23, 2010 at 12:55 AM by blackbishop

Loup@

Because everyone is making long, pointless post with have no value whatsoever trying to prove some random guy over the internet wrong. Its not even like the devs are listening to this nonsense? Waste of time, Effort.

That is why.

LAte Panzer III's > Panzer IV E's
btw Seeme your @ is in the wrong place.
Im all for the Panzer III instead of a Panzer IV.

Akalonor wrote:
LAte Panzer III's > Panzer IV E's [...]

Lord wrote:
[...]Panzer III:
Tank is already confirmed. We have present u pics of the
Pz III Ausf. J with 5cm KwK L/60 and Pz III Ausf. N with 7,5cm KwK L/24.

so we have version J for AT with long barrel 5cm gun (inferior to 7,5cm gun of wehr panzer IV) and version N with 7,5cm short barrel gun likely to be like PE panzer IV.

No am not.

Akalonor wrote:
LAte Panzer III's > Panzer IV E's
btw Seeme your @ is in the wrong place.
Im all for the Panzer III instead of a Panzer IV.

Best be trolling there

- So far there seems to be a J and an N version.
No 37mm. No medium 50mm.
Only short 75mm and long 50mm.

The short 75mm replaces the PzIV-AI rolewise.
The long 50mm works like the PzIV-F2 kinda, but
with less AOE-HE on it's round.

Been playing BF1942 FH, and StuIII is bigger than StuIV.
PzIII and PzIV are of comparable sizes, save for the turret, mostly.
PzIII isn't very fast.

I don't mind PzIII being in ostheer as MBT, just that I'd like
for their to be differences... in their operation that differentiates
the PzIII from the PzIV.

@ As for the Starcraft2 reference, not asking you to like it.
Just that then you'd understand what I'm trying to say.

Topic closed
Lord Rommel - DEV

Last edited September 23, 2010 at 5:27 PM by Lord Rommel