ostheer medium tanks

neosdark wrote:
Well Saavedra, wild suggestion but why don't we use a Panzer 35(t) or Panzer 2  8).

Both have very thin armor so the British mortar+ Button would slaughter em, the American stickies would = death, and the Soviet tank hunters......well u get the point right?

Do you want PzII with vehicle_22x (PE ketten, AC and halftrack) armor?
I guess a PzII could be a late Sdkfz222 but I want a quad halftrack.

Weak like a PE halftrack, Speed and firepower same as Wirblewind. Ostheer needs non doctrinal air defense (so sais the Devs).

PzII would be a great 2CP doctrinal call-in (vehicle_22x armor) or a 4CP glider call-in with (Sdkfz234 armor).

Last edited June 25, 2010 at 9:26 PM by Paciat

Like the PzII call-in idea. That quad halftrack looks fun too.  :)

I like the anti aircraft half track I'd probably put that in as the ostheers anti aircraft if I was a dev. I don't really like the Idea of the Panzer II cause it will get killed by all other allied armour in the game plus its seems out of place in a 1944 game.

neosdark wrote:
Well Saavedra, wild suggestion but why don't we use a Panzer 35(t) or Panzer 2  8).

Both have very thin armor so the British mortar+ Button would slaughter em, the American stickies would = death, and the Soviet tank hunters......well u get the point right?

Only problem with that is the range. Most tanks have the range and speed to kite infantry quite easily. Good luck getting stickies off on an early-game tank which naturally, if light armored, will need to have something to compensate for that so it is still useful late-game, like more range, more power, or more speed.

I really think the Ostheer should have PII or PIII included. Those where a major part of the initial tank force in 1941 and they are not included in the game so far.

Maybe, like already suggested, as a call-in weapon or a puma spare... but they fit more into the concept of a small tank, i guess.

oh god not another 222 case :P
Personally I'd want to see the Pz III since it has good armor and a decent cannon.

Rattle to the max!

Lol jk I know they werent made, no need to start yelling

i suggested this:

Stug III
Armed with a stubby 75mm. Very good vs infantry, horrible vs tanks. If shaped charge technology is researched, it can fire a single HEAT round, which does a high amount of damage to enemy tanks . If lengthened barrels is researched, it gains a KWK 40 L48 gun, which dramatically boosts its AT firepower, but it loses its HEAT round ability

Panzer III
Medium tank of the ostheer. Initially armed with 50mm kwk 38 L43, good vs all targets but great vs none. Can be individually upgraded for 60 fuel to ausf L, which makes the gun more effective (KWK 39 L/60)against enemy tanks and improves the armor. Can use APCR rounds once individually upgraded,  temporarily boosts AT performance further.

Last edited July 3, 2010 at 1:57 AM by guynumber7

Read my idea of incorporating pzkpfw II into game on unit suggestions.

I want Panzer III's and II's.

Perhaps the Panzer II and Panzer III and then an upgrade into the assault guns and such that their chassis were used for later in the war?
I like the idea of having them in the game, but I can agree with both sides of the argument of having them or excluding them.

I agree that there should be diversity in the ostheer. Therefore I think that the incorporation of pzk IIs and pzk IIIs is neccessarry in keeping to the truest nature of Eastern Fronts. I also believe that the availalability of the  jadgpanzer as an off map call in for one of the doctrins or make it buildable. I agree with many other of my fellow forum members that the ostheer shoud match in armor what the russians have as far as armor diversity as well as upgradeable versions much like what was seen on the battle fields of the Eastern Front. The Gemans made many different variants of the pzk IIs pzk IIs and pzk IVs. The game should allow these tanks to be built and upgraded with things like recovery vehicle, or up-gun them, or medic-ammo vehicles. Historicaly the Panther was seen during the second half of the Germans offensive on Russia, so it should be a late-game tank. I also STRONGLY believe that early versions of the Tiger should be built in the factories just as the Russians can build IS-2 tanks(its only fair guys).Building Tigers is what every german playing fan has dreamed of! In closing, I agree with the majority of forum members in saying that all of the successfull "panzerkampfwagen" should be utilized in some part of the game. They could be doctrine or permenantly buildable. (I am for diversity...it equals more fun)

Last edited July 12, 2010 at 11:48 PM by vonhaggon

Please dont do a recoverer, remeber what happend with the soveits?

Theres already a german recoverer, that should be pe's thing.

Seeme wrote:
Please dont do a recoverer, remeber what happend with the soveits?

Theres already a german recoverer, that should be pe's thing.

+1
It was great when mechanics could recover a wreck, they just done it too quickly.

  The russian tank hall allows for 5 very usefull armord tanks to be produced, from light support to heavy. I think the ostheer should have a similar set up in thier tank factory. With the ability to upgrade the factory. Then Panzer II,III,IIII,and tigers can be produced in a very similar fasion but for a little more of the cost of course to negate the fact that panzers can be upgraded with armored skirts.

How about having a couple of light tanks that could be upgraded with light AT weapons, and then getting heavy tanks for a slightly cheaper cost than normal Wehr, but after some expensive upgrades?

That way, Ostheer would have to rely on light AT and halftrack-mounted infantry at first, then go for heavy tanks like Panthers and Tigers later on. Think a mix of PE and Wehr, using open-topped HTs and Pumas.

Saavedra wrote:
How about having a couple of light tanks that could be upgraded with light AT weapons, and then getting heavy tanks for a slightly cheaper cost than normal Wehr, but after some expensive upgrades?

Wehrmacht is allready very cheap (OP) in late game becouse of their upgrades (vet).
I think that Ostheer tanks should be early, undergunned at first (PzII, PzIII, Stubby StugIIIe) but expensive in late game so that the Ostheer late game wont look like a Soviet T-34/IS-2 tide and that Tigers wont be spammed.

I think that a mix is what is needed. Make it tough for ostheer early, and then a strong late game through the use of tigers and inf.

vonhaggon wrote:
I think that a mix is what is needed. Make it tough for ostheer early, and then a strong late game through the use of tigers and inf.

As Ive said before thats wehrmacht youre talking about.
Ostheer should be strong (and expensive) in early game to stop US and Soviet overcapping.
Late game should be hard to them unless they gain vet (unit preservation) or outcap the oponent.
Only 1 on the field Tiger I should be available and the main late game Ostheer Panther-like "tank" should be JagdpanzerIV. Panther turret bunkers should be available to build to counter Soviet mass armor attacks. All Ostheer infantry exept foreign units should be expensive to reinforce.

No late game (1944) battle should be a piece of cake or the Ostheer.

Well, the panzerIV is certainly my choice for a medium tank. I feel that in keeping with history the panzerIV was germany's most vastly used and produced tank. The idea i had was to use the jagdpanzerIV(not Hetzer version) and panzerIV as an interum armor tanks in mid game. Then as for late game, be able to produce panthers and Tigers in factory for high cost. 

I'd go for the Jagdpanzer IV/48 as well. The OH needs a cheap, dedicated tank destroyer which would be markedly different from the StuG series in armor protection and performance. Also, the Wespe would be ideal as self-propelled doctrine artillery IMO. Same goes with the Nashorn or Elefant as doctrine call-ins. However, heavy panzers such as the Panther and Tiger I should be retained for obvious symbolic and practical reasons.  ;)

While I've come to the conclusion that the OH needs to be differentiated from the WH and PE (hence, upgradeable Pz. IIIs or Beutepanzer equivalents should be used in lieu of Pz. IVs), I've also noticed that the "No-Recrew" bug would discourage the use of crewed units such as HMGs, PaKs and Nebelwerfers/Granatewerfers. Therefore, a possible solution could come in the form of self-propelled units. Some ideas:

1.) Schwere Wermachtschlepper "sWS" mit MG34 - T1. replaces heavy MG team; upgradeable with either 3.7 cm FlaK 43 (AP/AM/AA) or 15 cm Panzerwerfer (rocket artillery/fire-support).

2.) 3.7cm PaK 35/36 auf Krupp Protze - T1-T2. Light AM/AT.

3.) Schwere Panzerspähwagen (7.5cm PaK 40) Sd.Kfz.234/4 (8-Rad) - T2-T3. Heavy AM/AT.

4.) PzKpfw. II Ausf. L "Luchs" - T2. Recon/AP/AM.

Last edited July 18, 2010 at 10:01 AM by Werwolf

PetikeHUN1984 wrote:
The panther is heavy tank, not medium.

For german its medium , for allies its heavy ^^

LESTANDARTE wrote:

PetikeHUN1984 wrote:
The panther is heavy tank, not medium.

For german its medium , for allies its heavy ^^

Allies won the war so its heavy.

I prefer stug/assault gun w/heavy tanks (tiger out of factory)

with strong sturdy light vehicles

OP!!

Paciat wrote:

Seeme wrote:
Please dont do a recoverer, remeber what happend with the soveits?

Theres already a german recoverer, that should be pe's thing.

+1
It was great when mechanics could recover a wreck, they just done it too quickly.

+1
If Ostheer would have a bergetiger like vehicle, nobody will use PE :(, so... I'm against it :P.

- sdkfz. 231 as an early recon vehicle
  -> and as reward unit the panzer II Ausf. F "Luchs"

that fits so great!!

Sdkfz. 231: fast, weak armor
Luchs: Slower, but better armor

Armament would be the same the 2-cm-KwK

whatever medium tank we get it needs to be able to stand up against the t-34 both early and late game because im tired of these bs russian tanks

javy52 wrote:
whatever medium tank we get it needs to be able to stand up against the t-34 both early and late game because im tired of these bs russian tanks

That was a thing most Early-war panzers couldn't do. So, we make the PzIII/IV Avainable Earlier than the T-34 [Maybe T2 with a Fuel-Muntion upgrade to make them?] Late game won't be a problem, Panthers, Tigers, Elefant will stand up to the T-34/85, until they get IS'2.

Newbie. wrote:

javy52 wrote:
whatever medium tank we get it needs to be able to stand up against the t-34 both early and late game because im tired of these bs russian tanks

That was a thing most Early-war panzers couldn't do. So, we make the PzIII/IV Avainable Earlier than the T-34 [Maybe T2 with a Fuel-Muntion upgrade to make them?] Late game won't be a problem, Panthers, Tigers, Elefant will stand up to the T-34/85, until they get IS'2.

bingo, i mean panzer IV does really well early to middle game and deal with inf well too but with the t34 upgrade it becomes a joke, with the wehrmact anyway, the panzer with the pe is a joke againt any tank

javy52 wrote:
bingo, i mean panzer IV does really well early to middle game and deal with inf well too but with the t34 upgrade it becomes a joke, with the wehrmact anyway, the panzer with the pe is a joke againt any tank

That is due to the fact that the Panzer IV of the PE is the anti infantry version. It is therefore more than logical that it fails against tanks.

Cheers

C'mon, I really hate to see another Panzer IV and Panther again! Its like having a different faction with the same combat docterine. Panzer III should be a teir 2.5 to tier 3.5 medium tank, it should be a little more expensive than StugIII, but fullfill the role of a mainstay tank, I know that despite its undergunned and underarmored, it was crewed by experience veterans who see combat as early as 1939, and it should have some unique and nasty ability to surprise the allies.
Panzer III can have a ability to use 80-90 munition of-Aim the turrent & tracks, give it the ability to stunt a tank(only tank) for a few seconds, either to bring it down or retreat, hitting a vehicle will do the same but waste the valueble munition. And the round do the same damage or slightly more powerful.
Or the Panzer III uses 50-60 munition for HEAT round, that can punch through armor of heavy tank, which may scare ally player to retreat their precious tank and thought, what the hell?!? But this meant that Panzer III WILL GO UP THE TIER and have face regular T-34 & Shermans. But having skills and ability to either retreat, ambush and breakthrough the frontline.
The Panzer III can fullfill what most tank lacks, surprise and shock tank, which can be a dangerous tank when combine with Werhmacht and Panzer Elite but a medicore tank which require more micromangement if use own its own. It maybe very much a game breaking tank if combine well with other faction, but its a concept, so forgive me to give a tank with such ability cause I hate to see a wonderful machine bacome a joke and laugh by the Yankees, TommieS & Ruskeis.

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 4:05 AM by PanzerWilly

I think everybody agrees that the Panzer III shpuld included as the MBT of the Ostheer and kinda like the concept of Panzerwilly, give the the Panzer III some cool abilities and available earlier than the T-34.

The balance issue could fixed by including an buildable Uber Tank Destroyer and that way a Tank Destroyer plus Panzer III could easily overpower more advanced tanks such as the sherman and the T-34

 

if Panzer III as a MBT then with Nashorn or something similar... :)

GamblerSK wrote:
if Panzer III as a MBT then with Nashorn or something similar... :)

+1. since panzer III has pretty much been confirmed but I reckon panthers or something simmilar should be in ostheer to deal with late game tanks.

Quotepanthers or something simmilar should be in ostheer to deal with late game tanks.

To be honest Im done with panthers for a while, we have plenty of them in both PE and Wehr. To deal with the IS-2 and Up-gunned T-34 I sugest ,as many people have already said, include the Nashorn (or similar Tank destroyer) and some sort of call in, like the one of the PE.

How about a Panzer IV Battlegroup Call In? You call in a group of three fully upgraded Panzer IV with schurzen, MG gunner and sorts.

I think the trick is try not to include the units that already have the Wehr and the PE, or least no make them buildable, that way the Ostheer becomes a more unique army and just a rip off of the other axis armies

why not the Panzer IV Ausf G ?

Why a Pz IV Ausf. G  ???

The problem with the main battle tanks is that
PE and WE had already germanys best main battle tanks
at their unit pool.
Panzer III is the last tank left for this role and so i think
we should try to find a place for this medium tank.
And all in all i think Panzer III would fit perfect -
it could fight T-70 and T-90 and in groups the T-34 tanks.

The problem are the heavy tanks of the red army and for this job u need something heavier then Pz III.
But what for a tank?
Panther? Tiger? Nashorn?
All in all those 3 tanks would have a qualification to be part of the Ostheer because they were developed out of the impressions of the eastern front. They were designed to stop and destroy red tanks and they were symbols for the battle of the eastern front ( try to image a battle of Kursk WITHOUT Tiger or Panther!!! Impossible! ).

So...I think there is no chance to create a Ostheer with total new stuff. Think we will see some old tanks back in action ;) But this isnt no problem out of my view.
When Ostheer game mechanic will be special and new anyone will cry when he saw one or two old friends back in action ;) Right?

i think the best way is to have new buildable units and the old one (panthers, tigers, panzer IV) call in as battlegroups

also some group zeal for especially Panzer III could be so that more PIII then they are better and can more easily deal with russian tanks

QuoteAll in all those 3 tanks would have a qualification to be part of the Ostheer because they were developed out of the impressions of the eastern front. They were designed to stop and destroy red tanks and they were symbols for the battle of the eastern front ( try to image a battle of Kursk WITHOUT Tiger or Panther!!! Impossible! ).

So...I think there is no chance to create a Ostheer with total new stuff. Think we will see some old tanks back in action ;) But this isnt no problem out of my view.

When Ostheer game mechanic will be special and new anyone will cry when he saw one or two old friends back in action ;) Right?

True, but historical accuracy isnt a top matter when it comes to developing the actual faction. Besides the alternatives are either making battlegroups or doctrinal units out of these tanks, because we planety of them in the existing axis factions or not use them at all (which is impossible).

The top matter is to fill the gap of the Ostheer unit pool and make it as unique as possible which it is ,in my thoughts, as  important as creating an unique game mechanic for the OH.    PE and WH share units, yes, but they dont share buildable units and thats whats make them unique, I think it must be attempted to do the same for the Ostheer ;)

hmm what units share PE and Wehr? ??? right now i can remember only panther tank

GamblerSK wrote:
i think the best way is to have new buildable units and the old one (panthers, tigers, panzer IV) call in as battlegroups

also some group zeal for especially Panzer III could be so that more PIII then they are better and can more easily deal with russian tanks

Going back to this, the group zeal might be quite a good idea. It could represent the Blitzkrieg tactics as well as the excellent radio communication the Panzer groups enjoyed. In gameplay, it would also be interesting to see the weakest MBT of the factions grouping up to defeat more advanced tanks.

I would think the Panzer III would be the MBT for sure in the Ostheer. The advanced tank would probably be in the form of the panther, since these were so numerous on the EF. It makes me wonder where a Tiger would even fit into the faction. Perhaps the Ostheer may have a 5th tier building, which creates the equivalent of vet 3 Wehrmacht tanks?

GodlikeDennis wrote:Going back to this, the group zeal might be quite a good idea. It could represent the Blitzkrieg tactics as well as the excellent radio communication the Panzer groups enjoyed. In gameplay, it would also be interesting to see the weakest MBT of the factions grouping up to defeat more advanced tanks.

yes that's what i mean... :)

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I would think the Panzer III would be the MBT for sure in the Ostheer. The advanced tank would probably be in the form of the panther, since these were so numerous on the EF. It makes me wonder where a Tiger would even fit into the faction. Perhaps the Ostheer may have a 5th tier building, which creates the equivalent of vet 3 Wehrmacht tanks?

i think its not a problem to have higher number of tanks, even Wehrmacht got highest number of tanks available so panthers, tigers and more can easily fit into ostheer

GamblerSK wrote:
hmm what units share PE and Wehr? ??? right now i can remember only panther tank

ahem... Goliath :P

the panther is not heavy tank!!!it is medium

to me its a heavy tank... :)

Yea its heavy, dont you hear them say "Panther Heavy Panzer coming in" Or something like that.

In reality, the panther was classed as a medium tank that happened to be as good as the heavy tanks of other nations.

Ingame it functions as a heavy tank, beating other tanks in field battles and creating breakthroughs.

Got it ;)

maybe you could give a call-in in each doctrine.... eg.with first doctrine the call in is a panzer IV or two...with the second doctrine you get to call in a panther...and with the third being the heaviest doctrine you get a tiger call in