AI Bugs Discussion

Hi, all.
The purpose of this topic would be to gather as many as possible bugs, ideas and other stuff about AI, list them, sort them etc. As i have reached my first goal to get into Dev time now it is time to make other goals and improve AI as much as possible, make it more human alike etc.
I will reserve first 2 posts after this if lists get 2 big.

Do not report bugs like : "T90 is too strong, my 3vet volks are destroyed by conscripts" here, they will not be added to this lists

Some notes:
Green = done
Red = Higher Priority
Black= Medium Priority
Blue = Lower Priority - needs more discussion
* marker -> that needs more tweaking
Also every bug/idea/tweak will have unique ID so it is easier to follow up. example SOVA#023 - means Soviet AI bug/idea/tweak #23
GAI - General AI
SOVA - Soviet AI
PEA - PE AI
AMA - American AI
CWA - Commonwealth AI
RMCA - RMC Reward Faction AI
WEA - Wehrmacht AI

So to the Lists.

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GENERAL:
GAI001 - vCoH AI properly counters soviet Snipers and AT-guns
GAI002 - all factions build more mines then before
GAI003 - all factions build snipers smarter then before
GAI004 - all factions counter Soviet defensive structures properly (mg_nest, etc)

GAI008 - all factions pick reward units more randomly, before: all or none, now: 1,2,3,...,n reward units :)

SOVIETS:
SOVA001 - AI does not upgrade molotovs if he does not have at least 3 conscripts or 3 navals
SOVA002 - AI properly counters vCoH light vehicles
SOVA003 - AI builds mines with Ingenery and TankHunters -> TH mines have higher priority since they come later
SOVA004 - AI rebuilds destroyed spawner buildings(SSB, MT, TankHall etc)
SOVA005 - AI likes Sturmovie and double flamers more then before
SOVA006 - AI locks medic truck and uses it like triage center *
SOVA007 - AI won't upgrade heavy tankovy if it has low economy
SOVA008 - AI won't upgrade T34/T85 if he has not upgraded heavy tankovy
SOVA009 - AI builds mg nests more often
SOVA010 - AI won't upgrade armory upgrades and waste tons of fuel on upgrades unless he has good fuel economy, also will not upgrade Tank Hunters if AI can't build them, same applies to AT gun upgrade, Guards upgrade and similar.
SOVA011 - AI builds T90 more often then T70
SOVA012 - AI builds all vehicles more often
SOVA013 - AI advances much faster to t3-t4
SOVA014 - AI builds command squad when it has at least 2 conscript or 2 strelky  -> more inf - more chances
SOVA015 - AI upgrade Sturmovie more randomly sometimes before light tankovy sometimes after :) -> heavy ing strategy
SOVA016 - AI builds strelky more often
SOVA017 - AI secures territory more smartly
SOVA018 - AI uses Dig-in/Dig-out on ZIS AT guns (other AI factions can take dig-in gun and dig it out to take it home :P)
SOVA019 - define soviet personalities

PANZER ELITE
PEA001 - AI builds teller mines
PEA002 - AI uses panther battlegroup
PEA003 - AI uses hummels more often

CW
CWA001 - AI builds mines with sappers
CWA002 - AI uses Hull-Down/Hull-up on tanks and vehicles

AMER
AMA001 - AI builds mines with rifleman more often then with Engineers if using infantry command tree

RMC
RMC001 - fix AI does not use RMC reward faction -> In AI "eyes" it is total new faction

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GENERAL:
GAI005 - fix silly 'make one thing only' mode aka Big Daddy mode -> more info at http://www.easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7958.msg116897#msg116897
GAI006 - fix AI garrison vehicles problem
GAI007 - make AI mob support
GAI008 - fix Ai using alt trees

SOVIETS:
SOVA019 - Redesign soviet AI upgrade purchases

PANZER ELITE
PEA004 - AI does not use camo ability on Hetzer
PEA005 - AI does not use Nashorn properly
PEA006 - AI builds booby traps on points that already have booby traps
PEA007 - AI build booby traps on buildings also did not saw yet
PEA008 - AI does not build and use vampire/funkwagen properly, should AI use this unit anyway
PEA009 - AI does not secure territory with Scout Cars am not sure about this did not saw it yet
PEA010 - Discuss T1 usage
PEA011 - I never saw AI building flak88 from luftwaffe did you?

CW
CWA003 - fix HQ locking and securing territory more smartly
CWA004 - AI does not build bofors
CWA005 - Investigate problem with Brit AI Infantry Sections using their Bren LMGs to button vehicles other button vehicle abilities like bren vehicle.
CWA006 - fix sniper ability on tommy squad
CWA007 - fix call in gliders adjust priorities

AMER
AMA002 - AI does not build demolitions on buildings
AMA003 - AI does not use helicat camo ability

WEHR
WEA001 - AI does not use officer/luftwaffe officier
WEA002 - fix wirecutters problem

RMC
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- http://www.easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7950.0
- http://www.easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=8065.0

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Hope i did not forgot anything.
Everything is normal or low priority for now it is just to mark me what to leave for later nothing else.
Feel free to report, discuss any bug you find.
Comments, suggestions all welcome.
Thanks.

Last edited May 14, 2012 at 9:32 AM by jojorabbit

Reserved

Reserved.

So, you are a new AI coder? Nice.

Anyway ideas:

GAI: I don't know if it's possible, but we all know that AI doesn't build sandbags, antitank barriers etc. Maybe it should? Of course in smart way.

SOVA: I don't remember, but AI doesn't build emplacements like MG nest or OBR.

WEA: AI builds bunkers but does not upgrade them into med bunker or repair bunker. It should but not always of course.

AMA: AI does not build M3 trucks, it should build them + upgrade them into quad.

That's all for now, i'll back with more ideas.

Last edited April 22, 2012 at 1:37 PM by TheDzierzanPL

I don't think PE should not be allowed to make T1. It doesn't use it effectively.

GAI- The AI Doesn't know how to use wire-cutters correctly to get through wire or sandbags. If you wire off an area with tanktraps + wire they won't slice through it, rather they steamroll it with a heavy tank.

TheDzierzanPL wrote:
So, you are a new AI coder? Nice.

Anyway ideas:

GAI: I don't know if it's possible, but we all know that AI doesn't build sandbags, antitank barriers etc. Maybe it should? Of course in smart way.

SOVA: I don't remember, but AI doesn't build emplacements like MG nest or OBR.

WEA: AI builds bunkers but does not upgrade them into med bunker or repair bunker. It should but not always of course.

AMA: AI does not build M3 trucks, it should build them + upgrade them into quad.

That's all for now, i'll back with more ideas.

GAI Oh, yes AI builds them ;). I deleted that for some other reason.
SOVA - I see a lot of Sov ai building OP, MG nests, artillery firebases
WEA i only saw medic and mg42 upgrade never saw repair upgrade
AMA - it builds but in "cheat" way with eng inside truck same for all inf halftracks(werh/pe), i saw wehr even upgrading them with flames and those rockets, only once i have seen upgrade into quad.

QuoteI don't think PE should not be allowed to make T1. It doesn't use it effectively.

I saw a lot of times pe starts with 3 scout cars but never secures territory with them.
But more often PE AI goes T2-T3

QuoteGAI- The AI Doesn't know how to use wire-cutters correctly to get through wire or sandbags. If you wire off an area with tanktraps + wire they won't slice through it, rather they steamroll it with a heavy tank.

That is true but imo it is some pathing problem not sure where and why it happens. Will add to list fix wirecutters.

Last edited April 22, 2012 at 1:52 PM by jojorabbit

Also if AI could put mines at choke points it would help. ATM AI only puts mines near strategic points.

jojorabbit wrote:
GAI002 - all factions build more mines then before

Im assuming you just mean they will make more mines rather than put them in different spots ;)

SOVA: But the OBR emplacement was something new and i have never seen that AI was building it.

WEA: AI should have option to upgrade repair bunker.

QuoteAlso if AI could put mines at choke points it would help. ATM AI only puts mines near strategic points.

It could on the roads.

Or like on Angoville and Langres where there are nice little hedge grove choke points. Or even on the other side of heavy cover. When the enemy tries to use the green cover: SPLAT!

Cranialwizard wrote:
GAI- The AI Doesn't know how to use wire-cutters correctly to get through wire or sandbags. If you wire off an area with tanktraps + wire they won't slice through it, rather they steamroll it with a heavy tank.

The AI uses allied and enemy AI vehicles to crush barbed wire. Otherwise it is as Cranial Says.

If you wire off a SP. It Drops off the AI's radar, at least until vehicles capable of crushing the wire are available.

Major Dankov, slide over.  :P

TheDzierzanPL wrote:
SOVA: But the OBR emplacement was something new and i have never seen that AI was building it.

WEA: AI should have option to upgrade repair bunker.

QuoteAlso if AI could put mines at choke points it would help. ATM AI only puts mines near strategic points.

It could on the roads.

SOVA: am not sure why u did not saw it, when i was testing defending raised def to highest value they build OPs on almost every point. later on they build arty base.
WEA:  they have option but they don't use it, how many bunkers? imo one repair is enough and only upgrade to repair if there is t3 or t4? Also one medic bunker is enough but after there is at least 1 mg bunker and at least 6-8 inf units?

QuoteGAI002 - all factions build more mines then before

I mean they build them more often ATM.

Yes ATM AI builds mines by one mine near strategic points, also AT mines by one near Strategic points.
By minefield i mean for example 5 mines in row close to each other like in line/vector but leave that for later.

QuoteIf you wire off a SP. It Drops off the AI's radar, at least until vehicles capable of crushing the wire are available.

I never tried to wire off SP, will try and see what happens and what can be done.

jojorabbit wrote:
By minefield i mean for example 5 mines in row close to each other like in line/vector but leave that for later.

You programmed the AI to make a minefield? IMO they should not put mines in a line. Vehicle that's out of control could run them all over. At least space them a bit from each other

QuoteYou programmed the AI to make a minefield?

Yes why?
Well IMO spacing is also possible but only for mines, tank traps and others should not have big spacing.

I think The AI putting a line of mines in a row is a good idea. It will only have to hit two squads and there will be more player minesweepers and less Flamers.

Cat Fishy do you have any ideas on how to get the AI to rationally design and layout a minefield? If you can describe it in words JoJo can program it. :)

@jojorabbit
I think you don't understand me, i don't mean OP(observation point), i mean 1927 76mm Gun, this is in the propaganda doctrine.

Oh sorry i also did not saw that yet and i never build that yet need to see how it works :).

Otto wrote:
Cat Fishy do you have any ideas on how to get the AI to rationally design and layout a minefield? If you can describe it in words JoJo can program it. :)

Obviously no. That's why I'm suggesting this to him ::). And IMO having 2 mines near each other is fine but having like 4-5 is just too much. A mortar strike or a out of control tank could just trigger everything. Also keep in mind the AI needs to buy and do other things too like flamers or Bren guns or uses grenades or abilities like over drive or suppressive volley. YOu only have so much muni.

Probably the mortar could trigger them but if you drive on the road for example and there are 5 mines puma is done with first 2-3 mines and there are 2 left :).
Yes i know AI has to buy things with muni but i noticed when testing AI almost always in middle game AI has a lot of muni and does not spent a lot of them.

jojorabbit wrote:
but i noticed when testing AI almost always in middle game AI has a lot of muni and does not spent a lot of them.

As long as you know what you are doing and testing it :P. I still think 3 mines is a good number rather than 4-5

Cat wrote:

jojorabbit wrote:
but i noticed when testing AI almost always in middle game AI has a lot of muni and does not spent a lot of them.

As long as you know what you are doing and testing it :P. I still think 3 mines is a good number rather than 4-5

Or better make it random 3-6 max mines in row?

TheDzierzanPL wrote:
@jojorabbit
I think you don't understand me, i don't mean OP(observation point), i mean 1927 76mm Gun, this is in the propaganda doctrine.

I agree with you. I think the OBR is still a WIP though. It is not clear to me that it will make the final cut. Might be a good idea to hold off on AI for this one. BTW when a Player deploys an OBR vs AI, the AI Eats it up in short order.

I just wondering but can Jojo make specific AI for specific map? So they know where best places to place mines, to places bunker, to ambush, etc...

Specific personality by map can be done, like large map, medium map, then adjust AI to be more aggressive/defensive etc, but that is another story.

The easiest would be to mark all best spots/vectors where to place mines but then it makes another problem every single map will need to be redesigned to some sort of campaign map and am not sure the mappers will like that idea.
Other idea without evaluation would be to gather all vectors to some table but idk if it is good idea.
And probably players will remember those spots and will now where to expect mines.

^ i think there are some ai related marker that can be placed on maps, im not entirely sure myself

Also jojorabbit is basically taking my place as AI coder, because im going to be concentrating more on modeling and animating.

jojorabbit is an awesome AI coder, ill admit probably better than i was too lol :P

Quote^ i think there are some ai related marker that can be placed on maps, im not entirely sure myself

There are markers but am not sure mappers will like to add that many markers to maps. Well IMO we can try it with one map for begging and see if it is good solution or not. If it is good solution then we need unique names for each type of marker etc, so it could work on any map when markers are added. Will try it with angoville farms and inform you with results.

Quotejojorabbit is an awesome AI coder, ill admit probably better than i was too lol

LOL, Thanks.

But if AI acted a certain way for every map wouldn't that get predictable?

Don't worry Fish, it's maybe predictable but If you really play that kind of AI, predictable mines actually become a "annoying factor" slow you down with wait for minesweeper or inflict unexpected damages. Human players sometimes place mines in predictable places too btw ;P

It would be better if the regular mines are placwed near strategic points or beside the doors of important Ambient buildings(like the church in Semois) while the AT mines are placed on places like the ends of Bridges or crossroads.

Mines will still be placed by one mine near strategic point same like it is now.
Minefields will be different, Yes it is true humans also place mines on predictable places.

Dann88 wrote:
Don't worry Fish, it's maybe predictable but If you really play that kind of AI, predictable mines actually become a "annoying factor" slow you down with wait for minesweeper or inflict unexpected damages. Human players sometimes place mines in predictable places too btw ;P

Yeah I might be worrying too much :P. And you are right, there are always "hot spots" in a game where you know there will be mines.

Ok, can anyone draw me a good vectors/spots on angoville farms so i can test it. Focus on mines for now leave other defences for later.

jojorabbit wrote:
Ok, can anyone draw me a good vectors/spots on angoville farms so i can test it. Focus on mines for now leave other defences for later.

What do you mean? Like take a picture of a Angoville and draw where mines should be ???.? If so can you upload a Angoville map? I have none :P

Just show me some screenshots i will upload overhead map soon.

I took a picture of Angoville (ty Google :)) and added little circles. IMO these are okay spots (although I wasn't 100% sure what was there so you might have to look for the heavy cover or the choke point my circle refers to :-X). The circles are color coded. The circles can work both ways (ether starting pint) but is slightly more oriented towards the south.

Red: Priority
Blue: Later on
Yellow: Low Priority

Thanks for start i will try a red ones later will see.

Greetings All,

Jojorabbit: Here is the requested section from my general 'bug' thread posting:


A. Since I play mostly against expert level in annihilation mode (often w no pop-cap) the games can go a bit long...hey there's lots to kill!....and the AI just 'runs out of steam'. It stops producing almost anything but the 'latest greatest' for the Command Tree it has chosen, and so becomes one-dimensional. So for example, the Sovs stop producing Strelky and other infantry and just make SU-152s...which are meat because they are unsupported etc. Also, when the game is reloaded and watched I see the AI having TONS of MP to make inf etc but it doesn't use it because it is waiting for the SU-152 (for example) timer to reset so it can make another one. It needs to keep some balance so it can be more effective nearing the end game. The effect is that the game is a good hard game up until the AI collapses into this silly 'make one thing only' mode.

I would add that when the above occurs, the comp doesn't have the units to cap areas and ends up (if pop-cap is in play) way heavy in pop with units it cant support and that can't cap areas so they can get more pop to use....the AI literally enters a 'catch22' it cannot survive. I have had games where I am hard pressed but if I can just last long enough......I win! Woot :)

You asked if this happens in other modes besides expert and all can say is that it def does in Hard also. I haven't played against a Normal or lower AI setting in years so I don't know but I suspect it would occur at any level should the game go long enough. It does happen for all factions...US will produce only the Calliope Sherman when using Armor Tree...Brits only Crocs.....whatever is the Big Daddy of the Command Tree it has chosen.

One more item: The Sovs always seem to produce a TON of Inf at the expense of armor. I can almost always just ignore AT until later than I would against any other faction due to this. When I play PE vs Sov AI, I can often go...forward re-enforcement point....STG44....squad size increase...healing....and then get a Marder. This is because the Sovs always go with an Inf strong early game....way after they have built the Tank Hall comes the first actual armor....sure they needs tons of fuel to get armor but I dunno...seems the same pattern no matter what Tree they choose. This makes the PE very (silly?) strong against the Sovs when comp stomping.

Thanks again for this GREAT mod. Your teams have done AWESOME work on this and I cannot thank you enough!!

Regards,

Chumley

QuoteA. Since I play mostly against expert level in annihilation mode (often w no pop-cap) the games can go a bit long...hey there's lots to kill!....and the AI just 'runs out of steam'. It stops producing almost anything but the 'latest greatest' for the Command Tree it has chosen, and so becomes one-dimensional. So for example, the Sovs stop producing Strelky and other infantry and just make SU-152s...which are meat because they are unsupported etc. Also, when the game is reloaded and watched I see the AI having TONS of MP to make inf etc but it doesn't use it because it is waiting for the SU-152 (for example) timer to reset so it can make another one. It needs to keep some balance so it can be more effective nearing the end game. The effect is that the game is a good hard game up until the AI collapses into this silly 'make one thing only' mode.

Added to the list. Linked with your great description of bug.

QuoteOne more item: The Sovs always seem to produce a TON of Inf at the expense of armor. I can almost always just ignore AT until later than I would against any other faction due to this. When I play PE vs Sov AI, I can often go...forward re-enforcement point....STG44....squad size increase...healing....and then get a Marder. This is because the Sovs always go with an Inf strong early game....way after they have built the Tank Hall comes the first actual armor....sure they needs tons of fuel to get armor but I dunno...seems the same pattern no matter what Tree they choose. This makes the PE very (silly?) strong against the Sovs when comp stomping.

This is imo half fixed sov AI will make vehicles and tanks more often, sov AI had only one BO conscript start now it has 2, i will add more when i get some suggestions and when sov persona will be defined.
On the first post you can look all the changes and todo changes.

Chumley wrote:
....and the AI just 'runs out of steam'. It stops producing almost anything but the 'latest greatest' for the Command Tree... the Sovs stop producing Strelky and other infantry ...when the above occurs, the comp doesn't have the units to cap areas

The Sovs have an interesting Strategic Advantage that can be used to easily correct this. 5 conscript squads are available at no burden to the pop cap. The hitch is you must have 7pop available to build a conscript squad. As far as the AI  is concerned there is a five unit roster of units the AI will choose from during its production cycle. My syntax is doubtless wrong but here goes:

• ConscriptsBP (5=maximum).


• If fcn(qty of conscript squads) < 5 add conscripts to production roster.


• If fcn(Sov map control %) < (demand) change the demand_offset to increase the likelyhood that the AI will choose it.


• If Sov PoP = Pop Cap - 8, change the demand _offset for conscripts in the production roster to make conscripts the #1 choice for the next build. -JoJo the AI_ex (2 = VARIABLE) makes the AI produce the first or second best choice in the production roster (ignoring the .25 variance) :P It may make sense if not enough cappers are available to increase the AI_ex. (1= VARIABLE) to remove the .25 variance before the PoP => PoP CAP -6.

I agree with you about that, there are tons of demands in game, like cappers  demand, unit demand, tech demad, defending demand etc. will create new Topic AI myths resolved  ;D and there i will post about how AI works will try to ask devs to get it sticky. I will link myth topic with this one in.

About myth topic what do you want me to explain first?
Could you give me some list of myths you want to see in myth topic?
Other ideas suggestions?

BTW added to the list:
GAI006 - fix AI garrison vehicles problem
GAI007 - make AI mob support

Last edited April 26, 2012 at 10:02 AM by jojorabbit

1. The biggest myth to debunk is that AI Spams are really necessary for the AI to work. 17 NI squads or 13 GschutzWns really are not necessary. Fixing this one would go a long way to debunking the second myth on my list:
2. Compstomping is an "Umanly" way to play CoH.

I will go with myths like this:

1. Demand myth
2. The biggest myth to debunk is that AI Spams are really necessary for the AI to work. 17 NI squads or 13 GschutzWns really are not necessary. Fixing this one would go a long way to debunking the second myth on my list:
3. Compstomping is an "Umanly" way to play CoH.

Hope it is ok with you.

RMC001 - I would like to hear you opinions about RMC, should AI use RMC reward faction or not? How often like 50%RMC-50%CW?

Well RMC is considered OP right now so I say they shouldn't use it atm at all.

I have to admit I do not like the RMC as it is now, half the units like the Achilles and the SAS are OP, while units like the scout Jeeps are useless IMO. That said it does bother me tuat the computer does not use them, so I am willing to have them out there. 25-30% sounds right for the AI to use the RMC.

Actually I think the AI should use RMC atm (now that I have given it some thought). Lets be honest. The vBrit AI is kinda dumb. SO if we give them an OP faction they do okay ;D

Does the RMC actually have an AI right now? It has never been available for Compstomps AFAIK.

AKAIK it doesn't  :-\

Cat wrote:
Actually I think the AI should use RMC atm (now that I have given it some thought). Lets be honest. The vBrit AI is kinda dumb. SO if we give them an OP faction they do okay ;D

You mean how they drive their Support Command Trucks to the highest points on the map even during fierce fire-fights? :P Their tons of 17lb emplacements and 25lb Spams make for some entertaining struggles, especially on bridge heavy maps.

Yeah they have no idea where to put their trucks. They just drive them to the front lines, making for some very easy shreck targets :P