AI Bugs Discussion

AI does not use RMC, am planning add RMC to ai, that has to be started from scratch so any ideas you have pls tell me.

Also i am planning to improve vCoH AIs, what do you think should be improved with CW AI?
Locking trucks is going to be redesigned i started that task (also need to finish some high priorities to continue my work on that), so don't worry about that for now. Tell me the other bugs, stuff that is wrong with CW AI etc.

They never build Bofors 40mm for one, the Hard and Expert AI build 17lb's but they are easily overwhelmed due to their slow speed.

1. I noticed that they never built bofors -> added to list. Under what conditions should AI build bofors?
2. Also what are 17lb emplacements? mortars and mg nests or?
3. IMO AI does not protect their forward bases and emplacements smartly. What do you think about that?
4. Should AI build slit trenches or not?
5. Condition for building mortar is if enemy has vehicles don't build mortar nest otherwise build it, AT nest condition is if enemy has vehicles build it otherwise don't build it, what do you think about these conditions?

Last edited April 27, 2012 at 10:48 PM by jojorabbit

17lb, Shorthand for Ordnace Quick-Firing 17 Pound Projectile; Their AT emplacement. ;D
The 17 pounders have a bad habit of being built right in the middle of allied bases, it seems for every one they build on a hill or intersection they place one in some corner where the HQ truck started or where I need to build a Tank depot.
Condtions for #5 sound about right.
IMO, the Bofors should be built when both Infantry and Vehicles are present as they are effective against both and let the AI build them in open spaces so that they can take full advantage of their 360 degree fire arc.
It seems to me that the AI should bulid a Mortar pit near each one or their Trucks for protection and slit trenches early on near valuable CPs.
Those are just my thoughts though.

Last edited April 27, 2012 at 11:33 PM by MBJrP36

17lbrs is just a term for the British AT emplacement ;).

IMO Bofors should be made once light vehicles appear (AC, Puma, HTs) Maybe even before then (preemptive measure). But thats up for discussion ;). And 17lbrs should be made near front lines but not directly on front lines (or they'll die easily :P)

@Jojo
1. When you build T3. Because Puma and PE AC are its main purpose to exist.
4. They should, in order to strengthen them. :P
5. Mortar should not be build once T3 or T4 hit the field, the units from these tier of building are those that able to easily demolish Mortar Emplacement.

IMO AI should REALLY NOT build slit trenches. The AI wont know when or where to position it smartly and even if it does it wont delete trenches when its at risk of losing it, allowing axis to hijack trenches and it will be OP.

New thoughts; I propose what I call Operation: Citadel a special defensive AI protocol:
Drum Roll if you will... ;D ;D ;D

I would love to see Layered emplacements for the Expert AI, if the EFBrits2.0 (or whatever you are going to call them) are going to stay defensive then they need to get tougher;
Easy; Mortars near starting HQ and MGs near later truck deployments with a Global 1 Howitzer max and global 1-2 17 Pounders at key locations Late-Game.
Normal;Bofors 40mm near contested areas as soon as they detect Vehicles with Extra mortars near High value points.
Hard; 40mm near each truck along with Mortars and now builds 17 Pounders near High value points with mortars to support. 2 Howitzer max. Global limit 3-4 17 Pounders. Hull down activated, Commandos now set explosives on bridges and Buildings and build triangulators. HQ gliders land in controlled territory and PIAT Commandos now follow Infantry Sections. Can build Mortars near any secured point.
Expert; Same level of defenses around Trucks as Hard. Can use Hull down to create a rolling defensive line of tanks that press slowly across the map, fighting then advancing to Hull Down again; 3 Howitzer Max and Always shoots Howitzers at avalible targets as soon as they are ready. Commandos now land behind enemy lines and lands Tank gliders ASAP to support them. Can build MGs and Bofors near Medium Value points.


Also teach the AI to use the ARVE's ability against Buildings, Medium Vehicles and Infantry. Allow the AI to overepair any Vehicles and Trucks from Normal and above (AFAIK it does not do this.)

Last edited April 28, 2012 at 6:36 AM by MBJrP36

Nice ideas.

Here is what i have decided AI won't build trenches until i finish locking trucks bug.

When there is t3 ai goes with bofors if there is t4 ai goes with AT guns :), also when there is t3 no more mortars and mg nests.

IDK when AI calls gliders need to check that out, to be honest i never saw AI using gliders, without gliders AI is cripled with only RHS commandos command tree.
About defenses will see what i can do, i will add AVRE ability to list.
IMO 3 x bofors max, 2 x ATG nest max, 2 x mortar max, 2 x mg nest.
What do you think about max for defenses, do you have any other ideas?
What about overwatch abilities does ai use them or not?

The AI uses overwatch artilery, I have no idea what the conditions are but It is usually over key points and by Priests and is devastating for PE players with their small squads and light vehicles.
The Britts are my favortite faction BTW, so I had plenty of time to get information for "Operation: Citadel"

QuoteThe Britts are my favortite faction BTW, so I had plenty of time to get information for "Operation: Citadel"

Nice i like them also. But i need to separate some stuff that should apply on to RMC and some only to CW, also i need to setup some stuff that will apply to both so it will take time i hope we will have RMC ai for next patch ;).

IMO the AI doesn't need 3 Bofors. Bofors are like a jack of all trade and even then AT weapons can easily kill it and it doesn't do anything to tanks. Maybe more AT guns or MG nest though.

Cat wrote:
IMO the AI doesn't need 3 Bofors. Bofors are like a jack of all trade and even then AT weapons can easily kill it and it doesn't do anything to tanks. Maybe more AT guns or MG nest though.

The purpose of static defenses is not to win battles but to pin an opponent down in the open where you can wipe them out. That is why they have 25lb Gun-Howitzers as a basic building option. ;)

Cat wrote:
IMO the AI doesn't need 3 Bofors. Bofors are like a jack of all trade and even then AT weapons can easily kill it and it doesn't do anything to tanks. Maybe more AT guns or MG nest though.

3 bofors max does not mean that AI will always build 3 bofors, IMO all 3 will be build only on big maps with very high res.
Mg nests don't have max and i only saw few on medium maps, don't worry :).

Trucks locking and defending locked trucks, building defences near trucks, unlocking and run home if trucks has low health etc will be implemented when i finish other AI stuff and tests. I hope in the next patch you will be able to play against RMC AI 8).

I just noticed I never see Brit AI Infantry Sections using their Bren LMGs to button vehicles.

Last edited May 1, 2012 at 5:25 PM by MBJrP36

Thanks added to list, will see where is the problem.

In addition I don't think Brits use snipe ability. Not sure :P

Nope, they don't.

I'm fairly certain I've seen AI recce sections snipe.

AI Recon section use snipe ability regularly in vCoH like Volks use faust.

Hmmmm, I've never seen it before bt I could be wrong. Maybe Brit Recon squads should use ability when enemy squad is low on men.

Mr. wrote:
AI Recon section use snipe ability regularly in vCoH like Volks use faust.

I never saw that happen, too.

@jojo,
There is an interesting difference in experience here looks like 5:2 having observed /not having observed recce snipe activity. zemsex and I regularly observe a behaviour ~ 28% . 72% have never seen it. the numbers don't add up.

Hey guys, of those of you who never see recce snipes how frequently to you compstomp vs CW?
How often do you do team play with CW AI involvement?
Thanks.

I also see it but very very rarely, reason. On begging AI has low muni and one squad with snipe. Later AI upgrades all tommies with bren LMG, and probably AI lost that one snipe squad so there is no way you can see it in late game. I will try some tests with snipe and will see what happens.

Also i would like to hear you opinions about upgrades on tommy squad, how often should AI upgrade them.

They have 3 upgrades snipe, LMG and rifle nades. What is best to upgrade for AI.
I often upgrade 2 snipes and later when i have a lot of muni 2-4 lmg and at least one rifle granades.
Also there is problem AI never builds more then 2-3 tommies maybe max 4 but am not 100% sure.

Thanks for noticing this.

Last edited May 3, 2012 at 10:34 AM by jojorabbit

Against Wher: Get a mix of Rifle nades and Bren guns. Maybe a 2:1 ratio (or even 1:1 if there is a Lt. still alive :P)
Against PE: Get full Bren guns

I advise the Brits getting an occasional snipe and have it target enemy snipers, low health squads, or high value targets (PE gren squad). But not too may as its expensive

Even on EF, I'm pretty sure recon section use snipe ability but only once in early game. They don't have a chance after that though and all upgrades they choose are Bren and Nades launcher.
I'm good old Dann88 btw.

@ zemsex Oh did you have a sex change too Dannyboy?  :P
JoJo the 2-3 Tommy squads built by AI could be for several reasons :

• Pop/Pop Cap issue


• Basic MP cost for Tommy is expensive


• Munitions FCN class / anticlass might be skewed.

No AI builds them 2-3 cuz they are limited max 4 engy squads and tommies are marked as cw engy squad, IMO sappers should be engy squad, also for SAS i will use sas sappers as engy.

Muni fcn class/anticlass should not be skewed with this, cuz as i told it is too far away and in 99% muni fcn is not executed that is why AI has a tons of muni and does not spent it a lot. While i play i never ever have enough muni.

Muni fcn raises demand offset by little only if AI has good muni income and good current muni. So it helps AI to build units that need muni including units with abilities upgrades etc so AI gets better "upgraded" army.

Biggest problem is i have no idea how to rate units smartly. If anyone knows any good idea pls tell me :P.

Also AI pay a lot of attention to popcap so am not worried about that. Will explain later.

Last edited May 3, 2012 at 11:31 AM by jojorabbit

jojorabbit wrote:
Biggest problem is i have no idea how to rate units smartly. If anyone knows any good idea pls tell me :P.

What do you mean by this

JoJo and Robotnik for that matter are tring to figure out how the AI computes anticlass ratings that are used to select which units the AI produces.  The existing code documentation for this is nil or buried where no one has found it. It is possible to arbitrarily assign these values I believe, but I would not recommend doing so. JoJo seems to be concerned about an inappropriate assignment of worth.

@Otto: I thought you're so old that can't make jokes anymore ;D

Can Jojo manipulate the rate, I mean make the counter-rate change during a match (or make fixed build-orders instead)? I think it will be better. Because if the counter-rate works well then the AI will play good, if not they play like retarded.
Example: set counter-armored rate like this: AT guns= 100% with max 3, StugIII= 100% with max 4, or set counter-inf rate: Sniper =100% with max 2, MG=100% with max 2, puma=100% with max 3.
What I mean is change the counter-rate into 100% with some units in a time to create a fixed build-order and if the AI can change which to time use a specific build order then it's even better. That way even can stop them from spamming a certain kind of unit because that unit good against everything (like spamming KV-2 or ISU-152) because AI have to stick into a fixed build-order which involves units from different tiers.
Hoped it can be coded and it will works.

Your under a couple of misconceptions. The AI has a static build order much like you describe for 3-5 minutes or so. This is programed fairly rigidly. Up to four different AI personalities can be programed. One might be set-up for a fast vehicle build , another for a sniper start another for a Standard build start etc. There is no fixed time involved but usually the ai seems to get up to a wher T1/T2/T3 build before it goes dynamic. When the AI goes dynamic it selects the best possible of builds, to counter the Players army. That is in theory. At easy level it is a random pick, At normal one of the top four picks; hard should pick one out of 3 best and expert one of two. The top two picks are both good counters; but the is a random variance factor. Won't tell you what that is . :P You'll be happy to know that when the existing programming is figured out most of the Spamming should radically decrease. I suspect the people who see Spamming from the AI will merely see the AI spam counters to their own Spams. The Ai programming is not hard from a logic point of view. but what programming there is is poorly documented and you end up reinventing the wheel.
I am just learning LUA language. As you know I am a dinosaur and the languages I know well are ancient. I do know how to program. BTW if you want to learn to do this stuff it will take about 200 hours contact time. 100 hours if your good and maybe less if your a canny old bastard like me. But not much less. One of my jobs when I worked inside was training folks to profitably operate different programs. That's how I know the numbers.

One problem that is a nuisance is: much of the AI programming that has been done has been workarounds by folks who don't know exactly what they are doing. Some do, some don't . Its like a Thermos jug. It keeps hot stuff hot and cold stuff cold. How do it know? Much of the chaff in the coding actually short circuits Relics original intent. They knew what they were doing? Some of these mistakes go back to the original corsix work. One of my favorite comments in the Corsix programming is -- Whats a bergetiger.

Well the good news is the dynamic builds will get better the AI strats will improve. and the teching order will not be so linear. The better news is the coders are working with a tactician who understands computer logic and wargaming. I hope you will be unpleasantly Surprised.  ;) Over the past three weeks the programmers have sharpened their skills and knowledge a lot. The bad news is When Ostheer gets programmed there will be a lot of changes required to the Sov programming . Hopefully (from the programming and coding POV ) we won't see another radical revision like v1.6. Nothing wrong with 1.6 mind you,  :P but the reprogramming takes a lot of time. I hope I addressed most of your concerns.

Last edited May 4, 2012 at 3:46 AM by Otto Halfhand

Mr. wrote:
@Otto: I thought you're so old that can't make jokes anymore ;D

Can Jojo manipulate the rate, I mean make the counter-rate change during a match (or make fixed build-orders instead)? I think it will be better. Because if the counter-rate works well then the AI will play good, if not they play like retarded.
Example: set counter-armored rate like this: AT guns= 100% with max 3, StugIII= 100% with max 4, or set counter-inf rate: Sniper =100% with max 2, MG=100% with max 2, puma=100% with max 3.
What I mean is change the counter-rate into 100% with some units in a time to create a fixed build-order and if the AI can change which to time use a specific build order then it's even better. That way even can stop them from spamming a certain kind of unit because that unit good against everything (like spamming KV-2 or ISU-152) because AI have to stick into a fixed build-order which involves units from different tiers.
Hoped it can be coded and it will works.

Fixed build orders are not too good, i made dynamic one and it works great for now.
AI makes complex calculations i am preparing demand myth to explain how AI calculated demands etc, so i won't explain this now. AI does not counter units like in your example it is similar but a lot different.

Spamming is other problem some units are overrated and AI makes those good units all the time that is why AI spams.

Cat wrote:

jojorabbit wrote:
Biggest problem is i have no idea how to rate units smartly. If anyone knows any good idea pls tell me :P.

What do you mean by this

Ignore that for now i wasted too much time on this this is low low priority now.
I have more important things to finish like RMC AI and to test that mining stuff you gave me etc.


EDIT: Does PE AI build those little flaks (flak38) and flak88 with luftwaffe infantry? I never saw it only wehr flak88. Does CW AI build casualty clearing station?

Last edited May 5, 2012 at 9:20 AM by jojorabbit

QuotePEA011 - I never saw AI building flak88 from luftwaffe did you?

Yes, PE AI builds Flak 38, watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pBNRC9pMM8. I don't know about Flak 88.

QuotePEA009 - AI does not secure territory with Scout Cars am not sure about this did not saw it yet

Scout car buys the upgrade for "securing territory" but I did not saw it effectively securing a territory. After watching a replay I think sometimes it tries (not sure) to secure but it doesn't work...

Here is something about the Kettenkrad AI:

1. The Kettenkrad should move away after capping 'the last' point (if no new orders are given).
Explanation: In early game, when finished capturing a point and no other task is in queue, the Kettenkrad stays there and usually gets attacked (and destroyed!) by enemy that caps back that point. It should not wait there, but immediately go back (to HQ?) after capping, and wait for new orders.

2. When the Kettenkrad is under attack and has no task, it should go away immediately.
Explanation: I see this together with point 1, after capping the 'last point' it's being attacked, but it doesn't move. From mid-game on I don't see this, but it could be because the Kettenkrad moves constantly from mid-game on (capping, repairing, booby trapping).

Kettenkrad, watch here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZgoHKcPoD0 and here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWmAuEUEA10.

@ Danou,
Good point about moving Kets away from capped points. Have to check the defensiveness value for kets and increase it.

Your Utube presentation is unclear. Squads are shown in blue. are we sure this is AI and not player behaviour we are seeing. I only ask because the current AI files for EF do not permit Quad Flaks to be built. I believe this has been changed already and may be included in next patch; but the condition may have been in the original CoH AI files.

The SC securing and aborting secure operation is odd. It may well represent AI. I have never been able to do anything with a SC or vamp during L/D U/L operation. I have seen AI SCs in a locked-down configuration.

QuoteYour Utube presentation is unclear. Squads are shown in blue. are we sure this is AI and not player behaviour we are seeing. I only ask because the current AI files for EF do not permit Quad Flaks to be built. I believe this has been changed already and may be included in next patch; but the condition may have been in the original CoH AI files.

It was AI behaviour. Look down middle / down right in 720p, the player's name is "Computer - Schwer" <-- not me
I was also playing PE, but i was the yellow one. Btw I did not give any orders (attack here, defend here, ...) and it was a 'regular EF game' (no other mods installed, nothing special).

About the Blue/Yellow confusion: I was watching the replay from the AI perspective for easier analysis.

I don't know if we will need to make a special ability for the SC lockdown, since the player needs to select manually the place, I'm not sure if the AI can do this, so it would be better to replace it for an ability similar to ZiS-5 lockdown(but only for AI). Don't know if this is the problem with the brits trucks as well.

Nice points,
i never saw any flaks from PE maybe i did not played so much idk.

British trucks will be fixed maybe with new abilities(only for AI) but i will try to avoid them(more human alike) will see i have some plans from british trucks. Also it seems ok to me with british trucks how they work now in internal version sometimes AI moves back with them and secures some territories closer to base, but still sometimes they get destroyed before they reach destination, or before they are locked. This needs some adv calculations same is with scout cars, will try to add them to securing requests but am not sure that they will work that way :). Or maybe some special algorithm.

About kettens ye i noticed weird behavior like they are broken and something like AI is trying to attack with them but kettens don't have weapon and they just stand there, i will try to see where is problem.

Also problem with scout cars i have few solutions for it but did not had much time to test them, am not sure they will be in next patch will see.

What can you expect is more human alike AI, smarter AI, AI will make some decisions smarter, invest money smarter, some nice powerful strategies, and some other stuff but can't tell you everything right now :P.

EDIT:
Also IMO luftwaffe reminds me on axis defensive so i think it should be used similar at least by AI, to make more defenses like flaks they only have flaks AFAIK.

Last edited May 7, 2012 at 9:34 PM by jojorabbit

Maybe the minute Ketty reaches certain health it should retreat. Maybe 80%? Just like a pio squad when it loses a man it retreats. Maybe do the same for our beloved kettys ;D

Nice idea i was thinking something else but it is more complicated then this :). Will try it asap.
Thanks.

blackbishop wrote:
I don't know if we will need to make a special ability for the SC lockdown, since the player needs to select manually the place, I'm not sure if the AI can do this, so it would be better to replace it for an ability similar to ZiS-5 lockdown(but only for AI). Don't know if this is the problem with the brits trucks as well.

IIRC the Funckwagen locks down just about anywhere. Maybe that animation odel can be reskinned for SC.

QuoteMaybe the minute Ketty reaches certain health it should retreat. Maybe 80%? Just like a pio squad when it loses a man it retreats. Maybe do the same for our beloved kettys

JoJo the ket is supposed to retreat at .45 health. unless it has engine damage it should escape. But it don't.

Last edited May 8, 2012 at 7:06 AM by Otto Halfhand

QuoteIIRC the Funckwagen locks down just about anywhere. Maybe that animation odel can be reskinned for SC.

Yes he locks anywhere but anywhere is not always good for AI, problem is to calculate best position to hide vampire. Like somewhere behind hedge in some corner so player can't find it so easly, or somewhere behind building.

Scout car has a similar stuff like vampire but also when i play pe i put SC near edge of the territory not close to points (AI makes mines close to points). This also needs a good topographic algorithm to find good positions ;).

About ketty i need to find where is problem with "freeze" ketty then i will know more :). 45-50% looks ok to me to escape.

The problem with the SC is not limited to finding the optimum position. THe setup routine SC has is dumb and limits where you can set up severely. It doesna hae to be laddie

Maybe PE AI should just outright skip T1. It doesn't seem to use it effectively.

Also PE MHT only retreats when its got like 30% left. By then its dead. Can you make it so that the second it takes fire it falls back ???

Cat wrote:
Maybe PE AI should just outright skip T1. It doesn't seem to use it effectively.

Also PE MHT only retreats when its got like 30% left. By then its dead. Can you make it so that the second it takes fire it falls back ???

T1 can be disabled easy, well i will do it just to see some tests if i like it i will leave it  until we find a good way to use it.

PE MHT retreating that is matter of tactics i did not had much time to do the tactics, but i would like to make something unique will see ;).

^ it would be nice if ai went T1 once in a while though, some randomness and use of units not normally used is always fun

robotnik wrote:
^ it would be nice if ai went T1 once in a while though, some randomness and use of units not normally used is always fun

I agree, just need to make plans how to use scout cars + locking terr, vampire (that will make fun at least to me :P), muni halftrack i have no idea how should ai use it, or attach to first close vehicle maybe idk.

robotnik wrote:
^ it would be nice if ai went T1 once in a while though, some randomness and use of units not normally used is always fun

I agree wholeheartedly. A T1/T3 start for PE is doable. BO ket pg t1 sc t3 ac ac will give the AI AssaultPGs as well.
jojo you will solve the SC securing problem the same way you solved thezis5 problem. Muni HT is useful to mobs of assault PG with nades upgrade from T0. if munis are plentiful and a follow on command to MHT will allow virtual continuous incendiary fire against enemy infantry, emplacements and structure.

Edit:

Last edited May 9, 2012 at 8:26 PM by Otto Halfhand

Since I cant imagined the AI using the muni HT to supply troops (as it'd get easily killed by follow ability) to save its life, maybe the muni HT should plant mines. If PE has abundant muni ofc. Aftr its done or if it gets shot it can fall back.

Back to older discussion from here : http://www.easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7958.msg116664#msg116664
Well after some tests here are results:

AI is nasty  ;D ;D ;D



NOTE:
1. This is just test with one position, plan is to make more "good positions" and not always to make mines on same positions so that it would not be too predictable :P.
2. Images are not from ONLY 1 game.


Hope you like it :P.