Unit - Reward suggestions thread:

Paciat wrote:

BurroDiablo wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see the ISU adopt its real-life role as a mobile Howitzer with a limited AT ability, and leave pure AT to a Tank like the IS-3 which would be on par with a King Tiger.

KV-2 is a "mobile Howitzer with a limited AT ability" and no army needs 2 of these.

KV-2 has next to no AT ability... it's basically a StuH on steroids. I'm talking about making the ISU into a mobile howitzer/Limited Tank Destroyer. It would fire off HE 152mm rounds as normal, but it would also have a 'Long Shot' ability (a single 152mm Howie shot like that from a regular Arty piece) or a BR-540 Anti-Tank Shot (Zveroboy) ability.

QuoteBreakthru is the weakest doctrine (1.04) and Soviets need a better uber tank than an ISU-152. But IS-3 would be a IS-2 with more HP (boring).

IS-3 was a beast, it differed from the IS-2 quite a bit... I fail to see what would be so 'boring' about it. Do you find the T-34/85 boring too?

Last edited April 21, 2010 at 11:14 PM by BurroDiablo

BurroDiablo wrote:

QuoteBreakthru is the weakest doctrine (1.04) and Soviets need a better uber tank than an ISU-152. But IS-3 would be a IS-2 with more HP (boring).

IS-3 was a beast, it differed from the IS-2 quite a bit... I fail to see what would be so 'boring' about it. Do you find the T-34/85 boring too?

T-34/85 is an upgrade - better gun (dmg, acc) armor type (sherman->churchill) and HP. If T-34/76 were only buildable and T-34/85 were only call-ins I would call T-34/85 boring.

IS-2 has the best Allied armor type available (Pershing).
IS-3 was as fast as IS-2 so the only thing you can change is HP and armor type to Jagdpanther (best armor type in the game) and make it a 1 time call-in that affects HP income (Like a KingTiger becouse both tanks were RARE and if Soviets would want IS-3 as early as the KT, their production would suffer too).

It would be a IS-2 gun with a IS-2 engine and suspension so it would be a bit "boring" but ISU-152 needs a stats change or a swap unit badly. Also IS-3 looks cool.
Thats why IS-3 is a good idea.

Last edited May 19, 2010 at 12:22 PM by Paciat

Paciat wrote:
IS-2 has the best Allied armor type available (Pershing).
IS-3 was as fast as IS-2 so the only thing you can change is HP and armor type to Jagdpanther (best armor type in the game) and make it a 1 time call-in that affects HP income (Like a KingTiger becouse both tanks were RARE and if Soviets would want IS-3 as early as the KT, their production would suffer too).

Prefect Paciat. You got that right ;)
About staying power it should probably be placed somewhere between the Jagdpanther and the KT. Its should have quite less hp than the KT since its still superior but its armour type should be the one of the Jagd, because the hull design of the front was just amazing (the turned V-hull).

Paciat wrote:
Also IS-3 looks cool.
Thats why IS-3 is a good idea.

haha.. but yea, thats kinda right. Would bring some feeling in and would actually be a good replacement for the isu.



From the historical side about its use in the 2nd world war:

wikipedia.com wrote:
The IS-3 came too late to see action in World War II. Though some older sources claim that the tank saw action at the end of the war in Europe, there are no official reports to confirm this. It is now generally accepted that the tank saw no action against the Germans, although one regiment may have been deployed against the Japanese in Manchuria.

BurroDiablo wrote:
However, it is one Tank I would like to see in game, although I can already hear the Axis players rage quitting.

I'm with you on that...IS3 looks very cool and I'd love to see it ingame!
I remember it took several years to get a decent scale model of it but when i got one by Tamiya it was an OMG moment  :P

In game terms it would have had the same gun and hitpoints as an IS2 but boost 'Jagdpanther type armour' and slightly more speed

Last edited April 22, 2010 at 2:34 PM by Zerstörer

BurroDiablo wrote:
IS-3 didn't take part in Berlin, the first IS-3 didn't even leave the factory until May 1945 and by then the War was basically over. Only credible report of IS-3's in action was during the defeat of the Japanese Kwantung Army in August 1945.

However, it is one Tank I would like to see in game, although I can already hear the Axis players rage quitting.

yea, i guess your right about that... but people rage quit on everything.

"What?!, Russians get a new unit, oh man they were OP already!"*stomps away*

Yes they do.

uh, the 152 was always used as a tank killer. it didnt even need AP to knock out enemy tanks it just used HE.

though i would like to see a long range high elevation arty shot ability, ans maybe you could add an ap round ability (one shot, 35 ammo, high dmg/ chance of breaking components.)

guynumber7 wrote:
uh, the 152 was always used as a tank killer.

Actually this isnt true.
Mainly it was a heavy assault gun and besides that it was a howizer and a heavy tank hunter.

But its true that sometimes the HE rounds were capable of destroying the engine, yea - but usually they werent.

The AP rounds - even if they often didnt actually pierce the armour of a Tiger/panther they caused so much damage because of the powerfull design of the round & its sheer weight. It was done for piercing something, unlike the HE to explode. Thats why you can compare it to a huge punch into the front of the tiger. Powerfull, even if it doesnt comes through the often thick armour because it was simply too big.


So making it a assault gun is a great idea, with the AP round ability which could actually damage the engine. Done.


IS-3 would replace the role of the heavy tank destroyer than. And this tank would actually really be a tank destroyer, unlike the ISU.

Last edited April 24, 2010 at 10:54 AM by Venoxxis

Of course a 152mm shell would rip the turret off a tank irl, where we're all subject to the cruel reality of newtons laws, but we're talking about in the game  ;)
HE shells are generally useless against Tanks because they are supposed to be purely for anti-personal and anti-building duty.
An AT shot ability should be activated first (cost 100/150 Munis?), so each ISU called in doesn't get get some awesome AT ability straight away. Once activated, it should have a longish cooldown like the rest of the Sovs abilities.

BurroDiablo wrote:
An AT shot ability should be activated first (cost 100/150 Munis?), so each ISU called in doesn't get get some awesome AT ability straight away. Once activated, it should have a longish cooldown like the rest of the Sovs abilities.

AT-ability is a great idea, but it should be a single massive damaging shot which hits it target 100%. Another idea would be a activation of AT rounds which works for about some seconds.
But it shouldnt cost so much ammo and useable for a very long time.
1) - this makes the tank agian just non-flexibile
2) - if you wont need the AT ability any more you still have too use it..


To put it in a nutshell, i would suggest a single AP shot which actually costs less ammo, but hits always its target and damages the engine.
This would show the AT ability of this tank in a really impresive way ;) - just like irl, and that even balanced.



-V-

Last edited April 24, 2010 at 10:56 AM by Venoxxis

ISUs(both 152/122) were designated assault guns not tank destroyers. However, like the stug, they doubled as TDs simply because the thick armour,low profile and powerful gun which makes them excellent at ambushing tanks.
The 152 didn't use AP shells simply because it didn't need to. The tank would engage in direct fire targets up to 1000m where the impact and explosion of the shell would cause catastrophic damage to tanks even if it didn't penetrate, regardless of their armour. Infact as an 155 arty shell it could land next to the target tank and still do massive damage and disable it.

In game though Widow, we can't just give the ISU some HE death bringing doom shells, conquering everything it comes across, man and machine alike.
It did use pure AT shells at a point (although they were very rare), but certainly not all the time like we have in game right now... its current AT role right now should be buffed and reserved (the Soviets can already build SU-85's and SU-100's ffs) to a special ability, in the mean time the ISU should be given inaccurate HE primitives, with a long shot Howie ability. This will make the ISU a multi-purpose Tank and much more valuable than it is right now in its pure AT role.

In game... at best...it could work like a KT...aka good all rounder but not as tough...Firing more devastating AP/HE shells than a KT, but at the slower rate to compensate

Two cents' worth: I've seen ideas of a wheeled machine gun unit, like a Maxim or a DshKM on an AT gun chassis. Is that still on the table as a reward unit - perhaps replacing the ZiS-2 or the Tank Hunters?

Well Zis & Tank hunters are AT, not Anti Infantry,if to replace anything I'd say the Dugouts in Propoganda doctrine.

Hell no! I like my dugouts  ;D

It's the only possible way of suppressing enemy infantry other than DP-28s(Which even then is risky) and barrages!

No, not the MG dugouts, what am I thinking of.........hmm the Shacks that are garrisonable is what I meant.

sandycaesar wrote:
Two cents' worth: I've seen ideas of a wheeled machine gun unit, like a Maxim or a DshKM on an AT gun chassis. Is that still on the table as a reward unit - perhaps replacing the ZiS-2 or the Tank Hunters?

Building a MG model on an AT gun chassis would look crap.
We have a DShK tripod that only needs animated. It will probably be added to dugouts in the future, and as a reward unit if you're lucky.

Too bad I'm very unlucky.

Oh, I see. The Outpost?

Well, the only REASON I would like them to be removed is if the Soviets can HQ buildings. Otherwise you'd be in trouble if you're like me and use the *Blow up chokepoints and only let the enemies in one way, but defend that one way WITH YOUR LIFE*

I made a suggestion for the Ostheer to have the ability to have a buildable HQ, which I thought would be unique and cool.

I could see the Russians having that same ability too.

Maybe the outpost.... I can't remember, I'll have to go play it and see.

the Outpost cannot create troops. When in my idea, the buildable HQ would actually be able to create troops, like the American and Wehrmachct forward HQs.

a SU57 as a reward unit to replace the zis AT gun, a mobile version like the marder, with a 57mm gun on a M3 halftruck.

One thing I never got, id how a 57mm can kick the spit out of a Pzr IV?

Akalonor wrote:
One thing I never got, id how a 57mm can kick the spit out of a Pzr IV?

It (Zis-2)had long barrel which enabled higher velocity. A smaller shell going very fast.

ALso i would sugest the Zis 30 over some made up halftrack. The ZIS30 was a Koslomoldets armorwed tractor with a Zis2 stuck on it.

Mk. III Valentine. British Made Tank supplied to the red army.

Has a 6-Pdr. Gun that is effective against tanks such as: StuG IV, Marder III, Panzer IV IST, Hetzer [Side Armour] and the StuH 42/Hummel.
Acts as a fast moving tank, with a Upgrades including the new 75mm Gun [ The Mk XI] Making it effective with more powerful tanks like the Panzer IV and Hetzer's frontal armour.
Cost: 600MP. 7 Pop Cap. 60 Fuel.

Ability: Fire HE Round [10 Fuel] Fire's a HE Round, effective against infantry.

Upgrade Cost: Side Armour: 20 Fuel.
                    Bren Gunner: Makes a bren gunner act as a Infantry support weapon GPMG on the Tank. 10 MP: 30 Fuel.
            MK. XI: 60 Fuel. 2 Pop Cap.

Polish Soviet Army Troops [Reward - Replace Strelky ]

Armed with a Mosin-Nagat, move fast and have Frantical Morale, but won't run at troops like Conscripts. Veterans of the 1939 Invasion. Can be upgraded with a KIS SMG or Wz. 30 MG, or, even the Wz. 35 Anti-Tank Rifle.
Comes in a squad of 5.
Cost: 120 MP: 0 Fuel. 6 PopCap.

Ability: SUPPRESSING FIRE! [KIS] Suppress a enemy for a short time. 20 MP.
          AP ROUND!: [Wz. 35] Fire's a AP Round, that automatic destroys a part of a vehicle. 50 Fuel.
          DIG IN! [Wz. 30] Dig's in the unit, making it less valuable to damage.
          CHARGE! [Any]: Lead's a Calvary like charge, making the unit unable to fire, but move quickly without suppression. [30 MP]

Upgrade cost:
Wz. 35: 10 Fuel. 75 Munition.
Wz. 30: 10 Fuel. 75 Munition.
KIS: 5 Fuel. 70 Munition.
Hand Grenades: 15 Fuel. 50 MP.

Last edited May 16, 2010 at 9:40 AM by Newbie.

Fairly sure that lend lease vehicles from american, brits etc are a no go

Lend-Lease from the Allies is acceptable, in fact our Katyusha is carried on an American lorry. We just want to avoid using familiar units if we can.

Soviets were the largest users of the the Valentine Tank. They were the Commonwealth's main export to the Soviet Union under the Lend-lease Act, with 2,394 of the British models being sent and 1,388 of the Canadian Pacific built models. That's from a total of 7300...more than half in soviet hands! With a total number of 3800 tanks...it was more numerous than many of the tank types produced by the Germans through the war!
It was also very successful and popular with the Soviet army, much like the Sherman.
What concerns its reliability and durability lets refer to one example: at the beginning of Melitopol Offensive Operation (October 24, 1943) the 19th Tank Corps had 101 T-34-76  and 63 Valentine tanks. During a battles the Corps lost 78 of T-34's and 17 Valentines tanks while all tanks used with more or less equal intensity

Personally, its one tank I'd love to see in EF. It was a slow well armoured infantry tank taht was quite poor vs infantry due to the main gin being 2pdr-6pdr depending on the model

The Valentine, wasn't the only tank in Soviet service. Many soviet tanks were taken off British Ideas. Example: T-90 was based heavily off the Carden-Loyd Tankette [That i'd also like to see] and the Vickers Light tank,

EDIT: Also, a upgrade for the partisans giving them the PPD-40 SMG?

Last edited May 16, 2010 at 12:54 PM by Newbie.

Hi comrades,

I've been following the forums for a long time without intervening, mostly by lack of having something to say (beyond "great mod", of course), but I feel like someone is being unfairly forgotten here : where has Naval Infantry gone ?
There was once a topic about the opportunity of having them as a reward unit, replacing either Guards or Partisans (IMO, they should replace Guards), and someone even showed a terrific screenshot featuring a fully-skinned Black Sea Marine, in his distinctive black uniform with ammo belts. But since then (more than two months ago, I think), they've gone into oblivion, and this thread seems almost only about tanks.
So the aim of this modest contribution is just to remind people of their existence, because I think they would definitely fit in great on maps like Leningrad or Sevastopol, and there seems to be already a great skin ready for them, so I guess I wouldn't be too much work to implement them in any upcoming patch.

Thanks for reading me !

Most of the reward units in vCoH are currently vehicles, having Marine troops as a reward unit would bring something new to the whole reward scheme :) So I agree with the idea of bringing marines into the game as replacing the Guards.

The soveits had a navy?!?

Well, yes, and a large one : North Sea Fleet, Baltic Fleet, Black Sea Fleet, Pacific Ocean Fleet. Although the surface ships themselves proved quite useless (with the exception of Baltic Fleet, whose naval artillery was key in the defence of Leningrad), the submarines did quite well ; actually, the most deadly naval catastrophe of all times was the sinking of the ship Wilhelm Gustoff by the soviet submarine S-13 in 1945, when almost 9400 people got killed (mostly refugees).
Anyway, Naval Infantry played a role in many land battles : Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol, Moscow (I think so)... There's kind of a dispute amongst historians about wether or not they were good fighters, but propaganda was quite enthusiastic about them, and most important : they had a hell of a style and a beautiful uniform !


EDIT : There, I found this one skin I was talking about :



There is some clipping around the ammo belts, but all in all, they look awesome.

Last edited May 19, 2010 at 2:17 PM by ColonelMolotov

I think this is avery good Idea, PE get luftwaffe ground forces, US get Airborne why not give soviets Marines.

well the soviets do have partisans and gaurds and tank riders but those skins do look cool.

If Marines will replace (swap) gaurds they shouldnt be so tough. Theyre blue uniforms can be seen from dstance.

They need an ability or a weapon to make theyre offensive stats better while their HP will be lowered.
Strelky allready have sprint LMGs and SMGs, command squads fire-up is used.
Camo in blue uniforms sounds dumb.
They could move faster thru water :D and have better defensive stats in it but thats not a big buff.

Anybody has an idea what will make Soviet Marines unique?

Last edited May 19, 2010 at 4:10 PM by Paciat

- Actually, their uniform was black but never mind -

Well, maybe we could look at the archetype and see what to do with it : in soviet propaganda, they're usually associated with defense to the death and man against tank. How about anti-tank Molotov Cocktails (destroying engine, maybe), and a passive ability similar to the Wehrmacht Terror Doctrine "Zeal" : the more losses in the squad, the more resilient the survivors become ?
They could be armed with rifles, either Mosin-Nagan, or SVT-40, maybe the second being an upgrade, and have grenades.

This would eventually make a rather versatile defensive unit, keen on self-sacrifice. How about that ?

EDIT : Just to support my words, a soviet propaganda poster featuring marines :

Last edited May 19, 2010 at 7:02 PM by ColonelMolotov

I like it  :)

Marines look cool! It'd be good to call them in as Off-Map Units. Maybe arm them with ASV-36's? IF reward unit, Replace the guard, but don't make it.

' UBER ******* EPIC '

I found this inside the easter front mod why not added in the next patch?

What mod is that from ?

Is that the infamous black sea marines?

Where in heavens name did you pull that screenshot from?

ColonelMolotov wrote:
- Actually, their uniform was black but never mind -

Well, maybe we could look at the archetype and see what to do with it : in soviet propaganda, they're usually associated with defense to the death and man against tank. How about anti-tank Molotov Cocktails (destroying engine, maybe), and a passive ability similar to the Wehrmacht Terror Doctrine "Zeal" : the more losses in the squad, the more resilient the survivors become ?
They could be armed with rifles, either Mosin-Nagan, or SVT-40, maybe the second being an upgrade, and have grenades.

This would eventually make a rather versatile defensive unit, keen on self-sacrifice. How about that ?

EDIT : Just to support my words, a soviet propaganda poster featuring marines :

sounds good, but wouldn't such units be a tad OP? (dreading the thought of Naval Infantry spam which cannot be suppressed and armed with high-powered SVT-40s, Fire-Up!, grenades and Molotovs)...if that's the case, then they'll be like a stronger KCH-type unit for the Soviets  :o :o

I think the above screenshot is drawn from the World Builder, there is a skin there for Marines too, they are wearing field uniform, which is more realistic, but really less beautiful, alas. I prefer the black one.

I wasn't talking about adding all these abilities to the standard Guard, but about a full replacement : no fire-up, no resistance to suppression... SVT-40 should definitely be an upgrade, with Mosin-Nagant being the basic equipment. Maybe once given the semi-automatic rifle, they could be able to shoot slowing-down volleys, like Panzergrenadiers with G-43 ? Just throwing up the idea, though.
They wouldn't match the KCH, by lack of automatic weapons and offensive abilities, but would be tough defensive units, fitting well with the propaganda doctrine (luckily enough, since the deeds of Naval Infantry were really an important part of war propaganda).

the picture is from eastern front,i found this unit using corsix mod studio to add mr.scruff jagdtiger.

If we get Black Sea Marines, i think they should be equipped with something that people don't know to much about, the Fedorov Avtomat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedorov_Avtomat

It would be their version of the StG and it would give them something that isn't a semi-auto Rifle (SVT-38/40) nor a over-powered faliure (AVS-36). It wouldn't be as powerful, nor as fast but it might be a nice idea. It might even be their Armory upgrade, where they start with PPD-40s and later get upgraded with these Avtomats. If we replace the Guards with them then they should be the Guards opposites and be close to mid-range combat Specialists.

neosdark wrote:
If we get Black Sea Marines, i think they should be equipped with something that people don't know to much about, the Fedorov Avtomat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedorov_Avtomat

It would be their version of the StG and it would give them something that isn't a semi-auto Rifle (SVT-38/40) nor a over-powered faliure (AVS-36). It wouldn't be as powerful, nor as fast but it might be a nice idea. It might even be their Armory upgrade, where they start with PPD-40s and later get upgraded with these Avtomats. If we replace the Guards with them then they should be the Guards opposites and be close to mid-range combat Specialists.

10 times more AVS-36 (33,000 - 34,500) were build than StG (3200). Also StG were produced in 1915 - 1924 while AVS-36 in 1936-45.
6 men with AVS-36 would have similar  firepower to 4 FG-42 - good at all ranges.

Black sea marines wouldnt have granades, they would have lower HP (80) and suppresion resistance than Gaurds.
Also I very much like a ColonelMolotov idea of them having a passive ability like zeal from terror doctrine. They would be unsuppressable when they would loose 4 out of 6 men.

Thanks. I read that production of these "exotic" weapons such as the AVS-36 or the Fedorov Avtomat was stopped by 1941... plus, I think I read somewhere on the old Eastern Front ModDB page, that creating a new weapon model is really a lot of hard work.
How about going unusual and having a short-range defensive unit, particularly well-suited for warfare in dense battle environments ? Zeal - AT Molotov Cocktails - PPSh ?