Italians

??? ???

Seeme wrote:
??? ???

Rommel is just right.
I dont know what your thinking at the moment
but i think you didnt understand him right.

Also liking the idea of naming Rommel suggested,
since it kills 2 birds with one stone ;)


-V-

Lord wrote:

Seeme wrote:
NAme wouldnt be a prob. Just name it "Italian squad." Anyone have a Prob about that?

Exactly this is a problem out of my view ;)
When we name a squad "italian fighter" a large group
of people would start "crying" and "flaming" [ just remeber our "psychic" romanian... Concrete names are a problem ] because their nation isnt represented and all in all a
Ostheer hadnt enough space to give each axis nation an own squad. So in my opinion a "neutral" name like "nordic volunteers" or "mediterranean volunteers" would be the best because such a general nameing will include much more then just ONE nation  ;)

thats not half bad  :) you could like put arm patches on them on a certian squad and have Italian, Spanish and Romanian in one

Lord wrote:

Seeme wrote:
NAme wouldnt be a prob. Just name it "Italian squad." Anyone have a Prob about that?

Exactly this is a problem out of my view ;)
When we name a squad "italian fighter" a large group
of people would start "crying" and "flaming" [ just remeber our "psychic" romanian... Concrete names are a problem ] because their nation isnt represented and all in all a
Ostheer hadnt enough space to give each axis nation an own squad. So in my opinion a "neutral" name like "nordic volunteers" or "mediterranean volunteers" would be the best because such a general nameing will include much more then just ONE nation  ;)

Thank you this is what I've been talking about.

okay well you didn't bring it out vety well to tell you the truth and I have an idea for the units.
  you could like put arm patches on them on a certian squad and have Italian, Spanish and Romanian in one

Wait, so... you would put Spanish, Romanian, Italian and God knows who else all in the same squad?

That sounds silly.

Saavedra wrote:
Wait, so... you would put Spanish, Romanian, Italian and God knows who else all in the same squad?

That sounds silly.

Its for people like you who want Spaniards (for some reason) and for people like me that want any other country

lol. We have to be "politically correct."

in my opinion.They should be in the game.Weak troops,But hey,it always has it's positives. ;D

IntoTheMotherland wrote:
in my opinion.They should be in the game.Weak troops,But hey,it always has it's positives. ;D

Why? I would prefer a unit with good abilities than a very weak and cheap unit. We know this system in soviet army!  ;)

You guys should read Rommel's works.

He mentions that the average Italian soldier was not a bad one, but rather they were led by inexperienced men, and were using WWI equipment. The average Italian soldier was one whom did not want to fight, for he had nothing to gain from it.

Italy and Japan are the next factions if anything.

Romania and Bulgaria failed miserably on the Eastern Front with troops as early as 1943 surrendering before firing a shot.

Theodorable wrote:
Romania and Bulgaria failed miserably on the Eastern Front with troops as early as 1943 surrendering before firing a shot.

well i d like to see you then and there ! you have some rifles, here come T-34... go on hero >:(
had they had the AT-power, exp officers reserves and Pz, it would have been all right !

But all good stuff had to go to Paulus !

Red_Stinger wrote:

IntoTheMotherland wrote:
in my opinion.They should be in the game.Weak troops,But hey,it always has it's positives. ;D

Why? I would prefer a unit with good abilities than a very weak and cheap unit. We know this system in soviet army!  ;)

What good abilities can a poorly trained and badly equipped army have?
Ostheer needs volk like units.

You coul make a 9-men squad including one italian, one spaniard, one romanian, one indian, one finn, one ukrainian, one french, one dane and one belgian (he should be slightly overweight to be distinuishable from the dane), alltogether mumbling some multi-lingual drivel when clicked on...

Please don't include anything but germans into the Ostheer. Please!

HansBlix wrote:
You coul make a 9-men squad including one italian, one spaniard, one romanian, one indian, one finn, one ukrainian, one french, one dane and one belgian (he should be slightly overweight to be distinuishable from the dane), alltogether mumbling some multi-lingual drivel when clicked on...

Please don't include anything but germans into the Ostheer. Please!

The multinational squads are a bad idea, it seems like a war story where a bunch of guys who don't know each other getting seperated from their units and stumbling across one another. Then they need to get over personal opinions and differeneces and fight as a squad. It's way too unrealistic. But to be honest, I don't get what's with this "Oh my god! Ostheer features need to fit the original generic COH theme! Ach nein!" obsession.
Yes, I do want Spanish that are verbally indicated that they're Spanish troops that say, "Si senor?",
And I want the same for Finnish, Italian and Romanian squads. But in their own tongues.

Its gunna be alot of voice acting...

Never thought that anybody could take my suggestion to be serious... impressive.

Anyhuuuuu.... I dont see the sense for including such units besides eye- or mind candy. The regular troops of countries aiding the germans in their campaigns where not really strong or highly specialized in any way. There are some decent Waffen SS units (like the Estonian Panzerjäger of Tannenberg or the Nordland Division, mainly Danes, who fought in Berlin), but it would be random to include one country and not another. And still I rather fight with 1. SS Pnz. Div. LSAAH then with some random non-german SS volunteers... no offense...

I dont see the role of such a non-german unit in the game... as long you dont want to ignore history and create an ubber-heroic albanian mounaineer-squad with airborne-armor and "mule-ability" to be able to cross ridges.... hm... wait a minute... does anyboddy speak albanian? ;)

Nah, Italian and Spanish are major languages so wouldn't they have their own voices like Russians?

But the reason why I'm against a mixed-nationality unit is because it simply didn't happen. They would not put Frenchmen, Spaniards, Italians and et cetera into one unit.
The only reason why we don't foreign units in the original game is because there just weren't many on the western front, but this mod sn't abut the western front is it? Most foreigners were sent to the east, they need to be depicted somehow, perhaps pick a few of the most major nationalities and bring in a few units with a special barracks. They would have special abillities that German units don't have.
The Italians and Spanish could provide regular infantry support, Hungarians and Romanians have armor. Then there'd be a unit equivalent of Foreign SS which fill the gap between what will be the German SS and regular infantry.

No. There's so much german weaponry still not depicted in the game... Italian and spanish infantry support would be pretty weak... maybe a bit better than conscirpts... romanian armor? lol.... what use?

Landser, Gebirgsjäger, Heeres-Sturmpioniere, LSSAH, Totenkopf... are by far more representative of the german eastern Army than some useless foreign support troops. No insult intended.

You cant make italians or spaniards the volks-equivalent within the ostheer... thats just not right from a historical perspective, if standard german infantry d be foreign. So what basically remains is a call-in unit. But this would need special abilites of use. And foreign units where generally pretty weak standard infantry use to fill in the gaps in the huge frontline.

Just give me examples of the use of such support units? Regarding gameplay and history...?

I thought Lord_Rommel (he's part of the DEV-crew) already mentioned various times, that, if at all, foreign axis states are happen to be part of the Ostheer, they'll have general unit-names and descriptions. Like Northern Volunteers or even Volunteer Squad.
Thus no Spaniards, Finns, Bulgarians or whatever.

Aouch wrote:
I thought Lord_Rommel (he's part of the DEV-crew) already mentioned various times, that, if at all, foreign axis states are happen to be part of the Ostheer, they'll have general unit-names and descriptions. Like Northern Volunteers or even Volunteer Squad.
Thus no Spaniards, Finns, Bulgarians or whatever.

Same problem, different name. What use should those be, without completely ignoring history?!

Btw, you'll have to give them voices... how does "Northern" sound? Like norvergian? Or finnish? ...

Btw, you'll have to give them voices... how does "Northern" sound? Like norvergian? Or finnish? ...
[/quote]

Danish, Swedish, Norwegian.

Well someone proposed awhile ago to use Foreign units kind of like the Red Wave abillity and each time you lose an infantry squad or armor, you get a weaker foreign unit. Maybe if I lose a sniper, I'd get a Finnish one like this guy:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 (Ugly, yet amazing, but the unit probalbly would be weaker). If you lose a regular Wehrmacht squad, you get Blue Division Infantry or something. If you lose a Gebirgsjager squad, you get Italian Alpini Infantry. If you lose a medium tank, you get a Hungarian one. If you lose a Tank Hunker or Assault Gun, you get a Romanian one and etc.

QuoteDanish, Swedish, Norwegian.

...didnt get my point... was a rethorical question... referring to the fact that the moment they speak a specific language (somehting difficult to avoid) you also could name the respective country...

QuoteWell someone proposed awhile ago to use Foreign units kind of like the Red Wave abillity and each time you lose an infantry squad or armor, you get a weaker foreign unit. Maybe if I lose a sniper, I'd get a Finnish one like this guy:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 (Ugly, yet amazing, but the unit probalbly would be weaker). If you lose a regular Wehrmacht squad, you get Blue Division Infantry or something. If you lose a Gebirgsjager squad, you get Italian Alpini Infantry. If you lose a medium tank, you get a Hungarian one. If you lose a Tank Hunker or Assault Gun, you get a Romanian one and etc.

Ok. Thats a very nice idea I admit. But it would cost a lot of work to model and skin a lot of replacement units just for one single ability... and making this a more general feature would change the ratio of german / foreign troops to a historical inaccurate one...

Just make them speak english with an accent or german or whatever country you are.

OR just make them say a rumbeling noise.

LIke "eebabababa"

I really dont know or care

QuoteI really dont know or care

This is actually the perfect reason for not saying anything. ;)

Your right...

wow

HansBlix wrote:

QuoteDanish, Swedish, Norwegian.

...didnt get my point... was a rethorical question... referring to the fact that the moment they speak a specific language (somehting difficult to avoid) you also could name the respective country...

QuoteWell someone proposed awhile ago to use Foreign units kind of like the Red Wave abillity and each time you lose an infantry squad or armor, you get a weaker foreign unit. Maybe if I lose a sniper, I'd get a Finnish one like this guy:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 (Ugly, yet amazing, but the unit probalbly would be weaker). If you lose a regular Wehrmacht squad, you get Blue Division Infantry or something. If you lose a Gebirgsjager squad, you get Italian Alpini Infantry. If you lose a medium tank, you get a Hungarian one. If you lose a Tank Hunker or Assault Gun, you get a Romanian one and etc.

Ok. Thats a very nice idea I admit. But it would cost a lot of work to model and skin a lot of replacement units just for one single ability... and making this a more general feature would change the ratio of german / foreign troops to a historical inaccurate one...

Well it's the only somewhat historical and plausible solution. Besides, I think it'll be worth it. The Ostheer should be an Axis, not German faction to make it different to Wehr and PE.

I agree that Ostheer should be different to PE and Wehr. But this is not about the looks or the background of a unit, this is archieved with differences in gameplay. PE and Wehr are also both german - but completely different.

Including units with no special purpose, just to have foreign units in the game, would probably have a negative impact on gameplay. Who wants useless or non-historic units in his army? Especially when the soviet part perfectly unites gameplay and history? Not me.

If there is a way to find a sensful use of foreign units - perfect. If not, and so far the ideas I've heard are pretty poor, then I hope the Dev's will resist the shiny temptation and focus on the basics, like they mastefully did with SU: Gameplay and History.

Very well said

HansBlix wrote:
I agree that Ostheer should be different to PE and Wehr. But this is not about the looks or the background of a unit, this is archieved with differences in gameplay. PE and Wehr are also both german - but completely different.

Including units with no special purpose, just to have foreign units in the game, would probably have a negative impact on gameplay. Who wants useless or non-historic units in his army? Especially when the soviet part perfectly unites gameplay and history? Not me.

If there is a way to find a sensful use of foreign units - perfect. If not, and so far the ideas I've heard are pretty poor, then I hope the Dev's will resist the shiny temptation and focus on the basics, like they mastefully did with SU: Gameplay and History.

Because you think half-rifle conscript, and this annoying red banner bearer of strelkys are historically accurate?  :o

However I agree, foreign units without clear purpose would be pretty useless...

Red_Stinger wrote:

HansBlix wrote:
I agree that Ostheer should be different to PE and Wehr. But this is not about the looks or the background of a unit, this is archieved with differences in gameplay. PE and Wehr are also both german - but completely different.

Including units with no special purpose, just to have foreign units in the game, would probably have a negative impact on gameplay. Who wants useless or non-historic units in his army? Especially when the soviet part perfectly unites gameplay and history? Not me.

If there is a way to find a sensful use of foreign units - perfect. If not, and so far the ideas I've heard are pretty poor, then I hope the Dev's will resist the shiny temptation and focus on the basics, like they mastefully did with SU: Gameplay and History.

Because you think half-rifle conscript, and this annoying red banner bearer of strelkys are historically accurate?  :o

However I agree, foreign units without clear purpose would be pretty useless...

He did say that EF has good balance between gameplay and history, not that is historically accurate. Even CoH isn't.

Cool units + balance + (history/2) = good gameplay...

If you want to add historic accuracy you would use history instead of (history/2), but that gives another result, something like combining hydrochloric acid and aluminium.

And by the way, I agree with your opinion about foreign units ;D.

I have a solution: An ability, a call-inn, much like the American infantry battlegroup call-inn, where you get random foreign units.

Two variants:

1 - You get a couple of units from a random country (all-hungarian, all-romanian etc.). The different countries have different specializations, like finns give you a few good units, Hungary gives you armored vehicles, and Romania gives you infantry (I don't really know, nor do I care, which country that should give what units). Again, what country you get will be completely random.

2 - You get a battlegroup consisting of units from different nationalities with different specialities. This ability would be the one that is most similar to the american one (And in my option not as cool as the first option). On the other hand would this probably be the easiest for the devs.

The usefulness of such ability would be to get a lot of units very quickly, but they aren't necessarily as good as the German units. You will also have to take a chance on what units you get.

This idea would, in my opinion, be the best solution for including other axis nations into the Ostheer. I know that such an ability would demand a lot of work, but I think the devs can make it.

Last edited July 4, 2010 at 9:49 PM by Toorstain

QuoteBecause you think half-rifle conscript, and this annoying red banner bearer of strelkys are historically accurate?

Answer:

QuoteCool units + balance + (history/2) = good gameplay...

And Cons & Strelkys are pretty realistic regarding their fighting power. Not like my imaginative albanian elite-mountaineers... with mule-ability to cross ridges... (still worth a thought though.. xD)

QuoteYou get a couple of units from a random country (all-hungarian, all-romanian etc.). The different countries have different specializations, like finns give you a few good units, Hungary gives you armored vehicles, and Romania gives you infantry (I don't really know, nor do I care, which country that should give what units). Again, what country you get will be completely random.

I actually like this idea very much. Though I wouldn't make it to random, there s enough randomness in the game... Make it a clear Battlegroup of one country... maybe 1 squad + 1 small tank... maybe a middle game call-in... it would be weak but cheap... and like in reality would be used to quickly fill in any gaps in your frontline... best idea I've heard so far.