Italians

you might want to repost that whole post man...it makes a lot of sense too

No need to, I reposted and decided that in order to implement a unit like this, I would need to come up with a concept.

So Concept I shall come up with. It's majorly laid out, I just need:

1. Details
2. Doctrines
3. Some special rules.

yea but what I am saying is that posting it here on this thread is silly you can make your own  ;)

I posted it in Ostheer suggestions last night ;) A mod told me to come up with a concept, so I'm working it all out :D

wait a mod.....for a whole Italy? does this mod have a name?

Sure; Lord Rommel is his name and he said that he dosent like all this single unit ideas because just one unit isnt a hole faction and so it would be nice when persons think about HOLE concepts and not just one unit.
The idea behind this is that the team had to find a solution how and where to implement such a single unit. That is not very good because the most units are part of a special nation structure. Think of the PE - here u have a half track based faction - when u now say that u want a sFh 18 at the PE the creators would be confused because this unit dosent fit into the PE and so it is better to think about a hole faction structure then just about one unit!

Thats the reason why i had said to Cranialwizard that he should think about a concept - it hadnt to be a all in all italien concept but it should be a concept where other person can see where and how he want to implement such a unit like italian rifles or tanks ;)

My wish: single units are nice but really problematicaly ( out of my view ) so i'm happy when person think about the HOLE faction and not just one part because that would be a horrible puzzle!

Last edited April 9, 2010 at 1:11 PM by Lord Rommel

No, it's actually a good thing that you suggested that I come up with a concept! I am still designing it, and coming up with some doctrines, finishing unit stats and such.

The Italians will be hosted with the Romanians and Finnish troops in a early level barrakcs from the faction.

so its more of a "minor axis" mod?

Think of how the Wehrmacht is laid out:Wehrmacht Quarters-Krieg Barracks

Wehrmacht Quarters is replaces with a building called the Foreign Units Quarters. 3 squads are deployable, Italian Infantry, Finnish Infantry(Small group), or a Romanian HMG. The HMG is much underpowered compared to a moderate MG34 or MG42. These units are very cheap and easy to make.

Uberlegen Unit Kommand replaces Kriegbarracks. Think of Kreig barracks and Wehrmacht quarters combined. There are inexperienced troops, regular troops, and elite infantry. There are also Mortars and MGs to deploy from here.

These troops are composed of Germany.

The reason and concept for the early foreign units is because earlier in the war these other countries were ready. They wanted to help germany destroy the allies.

Later in the war, it was much diffrent. Most of the foreigners had pulled out by then.

the problem with foreign troops is that they pretty much diddn't exist at the time CoH is based. even with ballence over realism I'm having trouble seeing how they would be implemented very well. Also for the record I think it would best if we just leave them out all together as since there are lots of people posting on these forums there are a few from some countries who particiapated in the war on the axis side. What I've seen there has been a few people from some of those countries wanting to see troops from their own country due to nationalistic pride or whatever. Personally I can only see this going in a bad direction. IF there were any foreign troops in a new german faction there would likely only be one as to be honest just about all of the foreign troops fighting on the axis side were pretty poor in comparison to almost all german troops. Therefore if one foreign troop unit was chosen to be implemented then some people from some of the other countries may be disapointed very badely for not haveing their country chosen. As a result all I can see that can come out of this is a considerable ammount of argument and disapoinment and possible flamming and other nasties one could expect. I personally think the whole foreign troops idea should just be avoided largely because I personally can only see this ending badely. Please dont take this the wrong way and I mean no offence to anyone as this is just one mans opinion but I guess this should be a bit of a warning to the dev's that if you pick one country other people may be a bit upset.

Versedhorison wrote:
... What I've seen there has been a few people from some of those countries wanting to see troops from their own country due to nationalistic pride or whatever. Personally I can only see this going in a bad direction. ...

Golden words mate, as it already happened - closed topic luckily :):
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2900.0

I was against the idea including other nations too. But it can be done avoiding naming the unit with some nation, just call it "Ostheer infantry" or "Ostheer support squad" ... with some neutral name representing foreign nations participating in Eastern front campaign.

Last edited April 10, 2010 at 12:46 PM by wordsmith

About how done are you with the obsteer? 1/4,1/2/,3/4?

Last edited April 12, 2010 at 7:42 PM by Seeme

Have a look at the Relic Forums, The armoury section there is one on the second page I think. the thread was locked cause the OP was being a twat to people.

"... What I've seen there has been a few people from some of those countries wanting to see troops from their own country due to nationalistic pride or whatever. Personally I can only see this going in a bad direction. ..."
uhhhhh yes and no. The ones who defend it more are from those countries but come on dude.....you and me both know that people from America, England, Russia and everywhere else would like to see the minor nations in this game. It just adds new stuff; and new stuff is well....new and cool (unlike you I'm not gonna state that EVERYONE from that countries wants to see those troops but I'm talking about a margin)

of course yes I know that there are also other people who propose these ideas however I feel that it would be better not just picking one over a few.

Make a whole Italian (or Romanian or just call them axis allies) Tier I.
Cheap infantry with LMG upgrade,
Italian motorbike or a tankette (like a vickers MG BREN with as much firepower and suppression as PE halftrack),
47mm gun,
A mortar or a light howitzer.

A whole Tier will not be "Out of Context" like a single non German unit.

It would be fun to play UK or US vs Italians too. Ostheer armies were shifted to the Italy afler the Kurk battle. Alot of non German troops were defending France in 1944.

See this is my problem. If the Devs were to include on *foreign country* say italy for example everone who wanted finland or romania or other countries will be rather disapointed and I can't see it ending well. All I see working is either having a noname foreign squad or no foreign squads at all.

@Seeme: About 3/4, units and abilities are finished. Redoing my Veterancy, getting translations for special things, and doing doctirnes. everything else is done.

@Paciat: Exactly how my Foreign Units Barracks works, only there are 3-4 major countries, and each has it's own special weapons for it's country, own names, and own stats. For example, the Italians carry CarCano rifles with a Modello 38 SMG upgrade. However, the Romanians, also deployable, act for a cheap MG. They carry a MG produced in their own country and clear the road for the more powerful German units carrying MG34s. See how it works?

@ Versedhorison: In my concept, it does not concentrate on only Italians. The Foreign units barracks includes 4 diffrent units all from diffrent conuntries. Romania, Finland, Italy, And Hungarians. I am thinking about adding another country (Bulgaria)

Versedhorison wrote:
See this is my problem. If the Devs were to include on *foreign country* say italy for example everone who wanted finland or romania or other countries will be rather disapointed and I can't see it ending well. All I see working is either having a noname foreign squad or no foreign squads at all.

This is in fact a huge problem. Versidhorison is totally right about that.
Also, i would suggest the same solution.

And even if you have 4 countries in the Ostheer of different nations, there would still be several others complaining about that, since there were still more countries involved.

We have planned a way to include foreign troops.

WartyX wrote:
We have planned a way to include foreign troops.

Nice to hear that. im really wondering how you will do it. Im sure there is a good way to include them. But there are many bad ones as well  ;)
But i guess you will take the right one ;)

Venoxxis wrote:

Versedhorison wrote:
See this is my problem. If the Devs were to include on *foreign country* say italy for example everone who wanted finland or romania or other countries will be rather disapointed and I can't see it ending well. All I see working is either having a noname foreign squad or no foreign squads at all.

This is in fact a huge problem. Versidhorison is totally right about that.
Also, i would suggest the same solution.

And even if you have 4 countries in the Ostheer of different nations, there would still be several others complaining about that, since there were still more countries involved.

okay yea thank you...makes sense. I dont get why the heck they would include (NO OFFENSE PEOPLE)
1.)Spain (I'll re-give my argument on that if you want)
2.)Finland: they never were next to German troops fighting together
3.)Hungary: I mean its just to minor

ford_prefect wrote:
okay yea thank you...makes sense. I dont get why the heck they would include (NO OFFENSE PEOPLE)
1.)Spain (I'll re-give my argument on that if you want)
2.)Finland: they never were next to German troops fighting together
3.)Hungary: I mean its just to minor

Thank you for the support, although they kind of have a point.

That's why if you read my ostheer suggestion there are also doctrinal national units that can be called in to help.

Spain didn't have too much in the war, they were busy recovering from civil war.

Hungry and Finland had a large part in the war too.

Spain didn't have too much in the war?

15. Spanische Staffel: 5,454 combat missions and 163 victories.

250.division and blaue legion participated battles:siege of leningrad,Volkhov,Udarnik,first battle of Smiesko,Sitno,Muravji,Nikitkino,Possad,second battle of Sitno,Schevelevo,third battle of Volkhov,Maloye Samoshie,Poselok,Krasny Bor,Putrolovo,Pushkin and battle of berlin(elements belonging to blaue divison).
More than 49,000 casualties caused to the enemy.

2 Knight Crosses (one with Oak Leaves)

2 Golden Crosses

138 Iron Crosses First Class

2,359 Iron Crosses Second Class and

2,216 War Merit Crosses with Swords.


are you sure.

About italian,is a interesting idea italy have good soldiers but poorly equipped,my idea a unit similar volksgrenadier equiped with carccano rifles or smg beretta mp 38 a.

Last edited April 11, 2010 at 8:41 PM by hernan cortes

They had an active part in the war, yes, but they weren't a super duper contributor. The finnish held a huge grudge against the Soviet Union, spain helped because Germany helped the Nationalist.

Actually, I have a whole Ostheer faction down pat, including the Italians described!

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3282.msg31749#msg31749

a super duper contributor lol,

Sports at Spain to Germany:
iron
1941: 117,966 t.
1942: 127,769 t.
1943: 162,445 t.
1944: 105,709 t.
pyrite
1941: 9,631 t.
1942: 25,694 t.
1943: 43,273 t.
1944: 30,688 t.
lead
1941: 735 t.
1942: 1,447 t.
1943: 676 t.
1944: 4,361 t.
mercury
1940: 345 t.
1941: 759 t.
1942: 200 t.
1943: 305 t.
1944: 345 t.
Tungsten wolframite
1940: 29 t.
1941:15 t.
1942: 44 t.
1943: 430 t.
1944: 323 t.
Zinc
1941: 31,546 t.
1942: 18,809 t.
1943: 22,849 t.
1944: 10,241 t.

few tons exported italy? few combat missions in the air? few iron crosses win?yes,italy send more soldiers but bad equipped and low combative value.

GUYS STOP IT........THIS IS LIKE THE 5TH TIME THAT SOME SPANIARD HAS YELLED AT SOME ITALIAN (or someone else about Spain's history)
SPAIN HAD TROOPS yes they did.....okay you have to think though. Medals mean little, Germany needed support from other nations and if they handed out medals to these Spaniards that fought then the leaders of Spain would think there men are almost super soldiers; that's one of the reasons these Spaniards received so many medals.
  Herman Spain wasn't even at war with anyone it was a few bloody idiots who REALLY liked Fascism so they fought for Germany

Ford, it's all good, I'm not arguing, I guess you could say. I wanted you to give a comment on the faction because of your experience on the forum. It's a lil' unique and VERY diffrent, but it's got some really good factors ;)

ford my friend stop, you say stop, there is a post with 9 pages are talking about the Italians and I put 2 comments with statistics and ask me to stop? ok.

not call idiots those who died for their beliefs whether German, Romanian, Spanish or Italian.

just one thing not they were super soldiers, they were only men

is hernan no herman, herman was the name of my grandfather.

Last edited April 11, 2010 at 11:27 PM by hernan cortes

well my names' nor Ford so  ;) but what I'm saying go through the pages of posts and you will be glad to see this topic has been discussed several times; and we always end with someone just never coming back to the forums

verstanden, mein Freund  ;D, I just want to know that the Spanish were also there,grewtings.

Last edited April 12, 2010 at 12:26 AM by hernan cortes

hmm well what I'm saying is that Spain didn't technically fight A strong proud group of Fascists fought not Spain

were not all fascists, officers, pilots (Spanische Staffel), technicians, civil guards (Spanish police who served in the feldgendarmerie], doctors were not fascists.
the troops if there was a high percentage of Falangists [fascist similar to the Italian black shirts).
many enlisted to return the visit of the Russian Communists during the civil war.

true but in theory you are what your nation is

We Italians never wanted to go to war. In war we wanted to go home. At home we wanted to STAY home. Staying home we wanted only 1 thing to solve the rest of our problems.

Mussolini, as they say in my country, completo.

Therefore that's exactly what they did.
They never fought for him. They fought solely for themselves. They would have been killed otherwise.

Discussions like this are exactly what i mean, and there is no argument against them.


But i like cranials point of view, i dont see any kind of patriotism in his worlds. I will check your concept soon!!

Their werent many Italians in the EF anyway people. Well, no as many to put on Coh

then why add Spain :P Im pretty sure there were less Spaniards than Italians

Seeme wrote:
Their werent many Italians in the EF anyway people. Well, no as many to put on Coh

Ostheer is just a name for a 3rd axis fraction that is needed to balance Eastern Front mod.

UK will be able to fight Ostheer, so why not making an Italian unit (or whole Tier). Ostheer will probaly have a PzIII and buildable Tigers so having Italians too would be like commanding Africa Corps (still all these units were used in the east too).

Ostheer just means Eastern Army

after reading the last 10-15 posts this is exactly why there shouldn't be any forgeign troops. I will reafirm my suggestion to the Dev's that foreign troops should be excluded for this very reason.

Versedhorison wrote:
after reading the last 10-15 posts this is exactly why there shouldn't be any forgeign troops. I will reafirm my suggestion to the Dev's that foreign troops should be excluded for this very reason.

Becouse you say so or becouse anyone else wants any kind of forgein troops?

because if there are specific foregin troops then there will be arguments and flaming from people who wanted a particular unit named for a country they may belong to or just wanted a certain foreign unit.

Just ask the devs what they hope to get out of foreign troops, and what criteria they will follow to choose them that mirror the inclusion of certain units in vCoH.

If it is sheer utility, Romanians (Volks, Stugs). If it is for charisma, Finns (Tiger, Panther). If it is for uniqueness, Spaniards and Italians (King Tiger, Jagdpanther).

Those criteria can be mixed, of course.

Versedhorison wrote:
because if there are specific foregin troops then there will be arguments and flaming from people who wanted a particular unit named for a country they may belong to or just wanted a certain foreign unit.

okay so one or two idiots yells on the forums OHHH NO!  :P so we shouldn't have a president so no one gets angry over the results? So we shouldn't have a winner to any realty TV show because SOMEONE is gonna be angry with the results  :P right?

A shell from the IS2 would penentrate 10 M13/40s lined up. It would be boring. Plus if you included Italians it would be quite stupid to see Italians fighting the 1944 equipments of the allied nations. (they surrendered officially in 1943)

this isn't MOW man XD, and by the time your enemy has an IS2 im sure you will have more than Italians (I think a king Tiger can knock out a row of T-60s)

ford_prefect wrote:
this isn't MOW man XD, and by the time your enemy has an IS2 im sure you will have more than Italians (I think a king Tiger can knock out a row of T-60s)

Someone even suggested Japaneses, you know, their tanks are worse than M13/40s...

maybe the SU 152 would blew up 20 lined up ha-gos? and even a sherman alone could defeat the entire tank force the Japanese have. oh wait, the 50 cal would killed a few at least.

NAme wouldnt be a prob. Just name it "Italian squad." Anyone have a Prob about that?

Seeme wrote:
NAme wouldnt be a prob. Just name it "Italian squad." Anyone have a Prob about that?

Exactly this is a problem out of my view ;)
When we name a squad "italian fighter" a large group
of people would start "crying" and "flaming" [ just remeber our "psychic" romanian... Concrete names are a problem ] because their nation isnt represented and all in all a
Ostheer hadnt enough space to give each axis nation an own squad. So in my opinion a "neutral" name like "nordic volunteers" or "mediterranean volunteers" would be the best because such a general nameing will include much more then just ONE nation  ;)

Last edited April 15, 2010 at 7:33 PM by Lord Rommel