The SS

My great grand father died hes first 3 days of combat :'(

"Those who forget their past are condemned to repeat the same mistakes."
— Robert A. Heinlein

You can be sure that SS has a place on Ostheer ;D.

One thing is to have the units of Waffen SS in game and another is its naming. As for unit itself I think it has to be a part of the Ostheer without any doubt, simply because it was a part of EF and had fought many important battles.

Problem is naming the unit "SS" which:
- maybe be offensive for some people
- is against a law in some countries

My both grandfathers fought in WW2, one as member of Hlinka's Guards - which was practically fascist volunteer troop in Slovakia (similar to SS), he fought f.e. also in Italy. This grandpa finds offensive the NKVD naming, red stars and all communist symbols. However these are not against a law in any country.

Second grandfather was first part of Slovak Army which helped in initial phase of Barbarossa and somewhere near Krym campaign he deserted and joined Slovak resistance army which fought with Soviets vs Axis. Then in engineer troop fought in Slovakia later as partisan and part of resistance, blowing up railways, bunkers and bridges. He was also a member of communist party and he on the other hand hated all nazi symbols and its representatives. In this case such thing IS actually incorporated in a law of our country (and in other countries in EU too) where is forbidden to show or present nazi symbols. It's against a law and that is the problem.

I personally wouldn't mind naming the unit even "Waffen SS" or similar but unfortunatelly it is against a law. That is why I think it should be incorporated but it should have some neutral name like Werwolf suggested or "Stosstruppen", "Assault squad", "Stormtroopers", "Shock troops"' "Storm squad" etc.

As for the problem that some people might find it offensive, this could be said also about red stars and NKVD too. And those things actually are part of game so I don't think it should stop devs from putting them into game. As said - it was a part of the history.

Last edited June 29, 2010 at 12:08 PM by wordsmith

wordsmith wrote:
One thing is have the units of Waffen SS in game and another is its naming. As for unit itself I think it has to be a part of the Ostheer without any doubt, simply because it was a part of EF and had foufght many important battles.

Problem is naming the unit "SS" which:
- maybe be offensive for some people
- is against a law in some countries

My both grandfathers fought in WW2, one as member of Hlinka's Guards - which was practically fashist volunteer troop in Slovakia (similar to SS), he fought f.e. also in Italy. This grandpa finds offensive the NKVD naming, red stars and all communist symbols. However these are not against a law in any country.

Second grandfather was first part of Slovak Army which helped in initial phase of Barbarossa and somewhere near Krym campaign he deserted and joined Slovak resistance army which fought with Soviets vs Axis. Then in engineer troop fought in Slovakia later as partisan and part of resistance, blowing up railways, bunkers and bridges. He was also a member of communist party and he on the other hand hated all nazi symbols and its representatives. In this case such thing IS actually incorporated in a law of our country (and in other countries in EU too) where is forbidden to show or present nazi symbols. It's against a law and that is the problem.

I personally wouldn't mind naming the unit even "Waffen SS" or similar but unfortunatelly it is against a law. That is why I think it should be incorporated but it should have some neutral name like Werwolf suggested or "Stosstruppen", "Assault squad", "Stormtroopers", "Shock troops"' "Storm squad" etc.

As for the problem that some people might find it offensive, this could be said also about red stars and NKVD too. And those things actually are part of game so I don't think it should stop devs from putting them into game. As said - it was a part of the history.

+1
Exactly. Those are my thoughts tt but coudn't write it any better. :)

Legality being the only obstacle (I mean, besides the YOU CANT PUT THAT IN A GAME IT IS DISGUSTING crowd), I think may be necessary indeed to change the name. However, Storm Squads and all the other ideas wordsmith suggests are a little bit too bland and too similar to the Storm Troopers already in vCoH.

I would suggest something more evocative like "Fatherland Defenders", "Fatherland Volunteers", "Volunteers of the Party", "Death Soldiers"...

I dunno, something that is either fearsome, or inspiring.

Or hell, have both. One SS squad that is all about professionalism and fulfilling one´s duty as a soldier, and another squad that is all RAWRG MUST EAT ZE UNTERMENCH´S BABIES.

I think most of you forget, that the majority of the Waffen-SS was in no way "better", more professionel or anything like that than the Wehrmacht.

After all, the impression of their "eliteness" was based on a very, very few hand-selected units, which indeed were equipped better than other units and fight till their death, when Wehrmacht-units would have instead retreated, reinforced and built up a new line rather than dying for an unimportant piece of land a complete retard think it has to be held till the last bullet is shot.

Waffen-Grenadiers suits well to them as Werwolf said earlier; and this discussion reminds me of Free Hat from South Park :P.

Wikipedia wrote:
A trailer of the fictional "re-re-release" of Saving Private Ryan is then shown where similar edits have been made; the soldiers' guns have been digitally changed to walkie talkies, and the word "Nazi" has been changed to "persons with political differences". The four complain about how directors edit their movies to make them more family-friendly or politically correct. Finally, the movie they came to see appears, but not before a banner is displayed on the screen (and also read by an announcer) to note the word "Wookiee" has been changed to "hair challenged animal" and that the entire cast has been digitally replaced by Ewoks.

Aouch wrote:
I think most of you forget, that the majority of the Waffen-SS was in no way "better", more professionel or anything like that than the Wehrmacht.

After all, the impression of their "eliteness" was based on a very, very few hand-selected units, which indeed were equipped better than other units and fight till their death, when Wehrmacht-units would have instead retreated, reinforced and built up a new line rather than dying for an unimportant piece of land a complete retard think it has to be held till the last bullet is shot.

Ermmm... yeah, so? What´s your point? I don´t think Airborne squads charged right through machinegun fire either, but I suppose the Rule of Cool rules here.

Aouch wrote:
I think most of you forget, that the majority of the Waffen-SS was in no way "better", more professionel or anything like that than the Wehrmacht.

After all, the impression of their "eliteness" was based on a very, very few hand-selected units, which indeed were equipped better than other units and fight till their death, when Wehrmacht-units would have instead retreated, reinforced and built up a new line rather than dying for an unimportant piece of land a complete retard think it has to be held till the last bullet is shot.

+1 SS unit where even in some case worst than Werhmacht unit. SS have always suffer lots of casualties because of their fanatism, and was often better supplied, thats their only particularity. I would prefer a resistant unit, who can break suppression, than a 'elite-infantry-which-can-rape-every-allied-unit' like werh KCH.

And I agree with wordsmith, some people could take offense. I understand that some guy can also take offense while seeing an NKVD unit, but lets be realist: NKVD conscript is composed of... 1 commisar and 7-8 conscript! A SS unit should be composed solely of SS dude.
And if NKVD where repressive troops, executing a lots of people, it was basically a terror-tool in the hand of a dictator.
SS where brutal and violent soldiers, more than any others element of allied forces, including soviet army. Their purpose was, like ostheer, to exterminate soviet union, but their fanatism allowed them to slaughter civilians by thousands when a basic german soldier cant, because of his humanity. SS are, in my eyes, not only bad troops comparing to others Heer Divisions, but also massive murderers without pity.

I'm not against a ostheer unit named 'SS-thing', but they should be very particular and without comparison in Ostheer Army. I play with N'44 mod and there is lots of SS unit, and they are well-designed. I wait for an interesting SS unit, with interesting abilities and role on the battlefield. I dont want another stormtrooper squad!

I think that we should remember that the whermacht terror doctrine and stormtroopers might be representant of SS units but relic did not want to lable something as the SS due to peoples opinions and perhaps some laws. This is perhaps simmilar to both CoH and Hearts of Iron III and probably any WWII game for that matter not using the nazi swastika flag or any nazi regalia. On the other hand the CoH mod BotB has a SS doctrine and SS units. In the end I'm personally not opposed or against it myself but its ultimately up to the devs and their views on the situation.

@Red Stinger:
On the eastern front there was a total war, there was not like in the west or North Africa. Germans executed civilians and vica versa. There also were a soviet collaborant group in the ss that was so violent, raped there own viliges that the ss soldiers hated them too, imagine that guys. Russians executed german prisoners and vica versa. The value of a hunam life was cheap. The history is not black and white.
Check the background of the RONA, and persons like Bronyiszlav Vladiszlavovics Kaminszkij, the goal was to exterminate any partisan activities in the occupied territories. The RONA was similar to the ss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_RONA_%281st_Russian%29

Last edited June 29, 2010 at 11:46 PM by TheReaper

Red_Stinger wrote:
SS where brutal and violent soldiers, more than any others element of allied forces, including soviet army. Their purpose was, like ostheer, to exterminate soviet union, but their fanatism allowed them to slaughter civilians by thousands when a basic german soldier cant, because of his humanity. SS are, in my eyes, not only bad troops comparing to others Heer Divisions, but also massive murderers without pity.

...So you're saying that my great-grandfather was a mass-murderer?? Be careful with your words, Kamerad. Please don't make hasty generalizations based on the actions of a minority. The Waffen-SS was different from the Einsatzgruppen and the Allgemeine-SS (concentration camp guards), both of which I think you are referring to.
Also, remember that there was an entire Waffen-SS division which was composed mostly of your own countrymen (33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne). They were very highly regarded among the Waffen-SS and boasted of more than a few Knight's Cross Holders, in addition to having a clean unit record (no atrocities/war crimes). They fought bravely and were some of the last to surrender after the battle of Berlin.

...but what happened to them after they got back to France? They were executed by their own countrymen, simply because they were Waffen-SS...despite of them not committing war crimes.  :-\

"despite of them not committing war crimes"???

The 'Charlemagne' division was as brutal as any other SS division on the eastern front, perhaps more! They are regarded has traitors by the entire France. I approve totally the execution of them, because thats the treatment for  the "traitres à la Patrie". They were scum, and France is very ashamed by these men.
They dont have "clean unit record" at all. They were engage in combat and COMMITTED attrocities. There is in my country enough documentations about this.
There was also the VLF ("Légion des Volontaires Français"), which formed the Infanterie-Regiment 638. Not only they have committed war crimes, but they were also bad troops: they were engaged the 1st December 1941 and desengaged the 7th December near Moscow!


Werwolf, I'm not insulting your great-grandfather, there is everywhere brave and clean men, both in Waffen-SS and in NKVD, or in whatever you want. But SS were known for their war-crimes, more than regular Wehrmacht division, in the eastern front or in Normandy. You seem to be very informed of french? SS slaughtered americans, british and canadians prisonner as well as population, when others division were less brutal.

TheReaper, for me and for every russian/ukrainian (UeArtemis?), ROA  (and others slavic volunteers) was an army of traitors, nothing more than 'Charlemagne' division. I agree that it was a total war, and both side committed war-crimes. As you said, the history is not black and white.
But SS were brutal troops, and thats why some people can be "shocked" by seeing them. Thats all I am saying.

All right, fair enough.  :)

War crimes are gray areas in history. Everyone commits them, but the victors are the only ones who have the privilege of "moral certitude" since their leaders are the ones who rewrite history as they see it. Hence, any crimes that they and their troops had possibly committed are either exonerated or swept under the rug (i.e. allied soldiers raping women and looting properties, the firebombings, mass executions by the French Resistance, executions of civilians and POWs who surrendered etc.) while the losers are condemned en masse (no one really cared much about the majority of Axis prisoners after Nuremberg, because for all intents and purposes, all of those POWs were "evil" since the Holocaust was still fresh in everyone's minds). A few unlucky people from the victorious side who committed crimes, however, may receive the ultimate punishment as concessions of war. Such has it always been in history...and will still be for years and years to come. :)

WAR...WAR NEVER CHANGES...  ;)

Last edited June 30, 2010 at 12:07 PM by Werwolf

Not sure where this debate is going guys. We've made it quite clear that we won't name any unit as 'SS' no matter what the historical arguments may be about the waring nations.

In all armies ,without real exception, there were units,soldiers,commanders who in one way or another were involved in war crimes as the war dragged on. There was also a lot of ideology involved in that war, making it all the more bitter.

As the winners are always the ones who write the history in the following years, you'll always have a lot more focus/examination directed on the war crimes of the losers while anything nasty from the winning side gets blurred/brushed aside as much as possible. This makes the winner feel all the better about the outcome of the war creating a much larger moral victory over the opponent.

The Nazis bombed London and other cities with the sole aim to kill civilians and promoting terror-War crime(Justification used-break moral and end the war)
British/US firebombed Dresden and other cities with the sole aim of killing civilians and promoting terror-War Crime(Justification used-break moral and end the war)
US nuked 2 islands full of civilians promoting terror-War Crime(Justification used-break moral and end the war)

There is only one acknowleged war crime/atrocity  that majority of people know and remember, despite the fact that all the others actually caused a lot more civilian victims.

War is an ugly business where the 'civil rules' quickly blur/evaporate regardless of age. Its as dirty now, as it was in ww2. What constituted a war crime back then, constitutes a war crime now.
As it it was back then, so it is now, the winner writes the history and decides what is labeled a war crime or collateral damage and who gets prosecuted (You'll never see a the winner get prosecuted regardless of the blatant truth)

Last edited June 30, 2010 at 12:03 PM by Zerstörer

Zerstörer wrote:
Not sure where this debate is going guys. We've made it quite clear that we won't name any unit as 'SS' no matter what the historical arguments may be about the waring nations.

In all armies ,without real exception, there were units,soldiers,commanders who in one way or another were involved in war crimes as the war dragged on. There was also a lot of ideology involved in that war, making it all the more bitter.

As the winners are always the ones who write the history in the following years, you'll always have a lot more focus/examination directed on the war crimes of the losers while anything nasty from the winning side gets blurred/brushed aside as much as possible. This makes the winner feel all the better about the outcome of the war creating a much larger moral victory over the opponent.

The Nazis bombed London and other cities with the sole aim to kill civilians and promoting terror-War crime
British/US firebombed Dresden and other cities with the sole aim of killing civilians and promoting terror-War Crime
US nuked 2 islands full of civilians promoting terror-War Crime

There is only one war crime/atrocity people know/remember despite the fact that all the others actually caused a lot more civilian victims.

War is an ugly business where the 'civil rules' quickly blur/evaporate regardless of age. Its as dirty now, as it was in ww2. What constituted a war crime back then, constitutes a war crime now.
As it it was back then, so it is now, the winner writes the history and decides what is labeled a war crime or collateral damage and who gets prosecuted (You'll never see a the winner get prosecuted regardless of the blatant truth)

+1
...my point exactly. :)

+1  as Werwolf!

And despite that germany invade and crush us, everyone in France have respect for german soldiers now. But we make a difference between nazis and germans. Thats why I have a lot of respect for german soldiers and army, because I think Wehrmacht was at least as clean as the French Army, and much more organised/skilled/equipped than french (I've always played Wehr in COH ^^").

Again, I wasnt insulting your great-grandfather, Werwolf. Soviet soldier who drawn swastikas on his neck proved that they were also brutal, violent and very disrespectful (I cant find a better word for "disrespectful"  :P).

I wish we could have a SS unit, named "SS" or not, with a very special role in Ostheer, defensive of offensive. It would be an interesting unit. Perhaps, they could, like guards, be unsuppressable. They must be able to use panzerfaust, and MP40/STG44 (I wish Ostheer would have more MP40 than wehr, i love this weapon).But, please, not another stormtroopers squad! What do you think?

EDIT: Zerstörer, you've forgot soviet, who bombs Finnish and Germans cities when they can, with Bombers or even with artillery. Some cities where properly destroyed: my mother borned in Beelitz, near Berlin, and she tell me that the citie was entirely devastated. For the same 'reason' that British or american.

Last edited June 30, 2010 at 12:38 PM by Red_Stinger

Red_Stinger wrote:

The 'Charlemagne' division was as brutal as any other SS division on the eastern front, perhaps more! They are regarded has traitors by the entire France. I approve totally the execution of them, because thats the treatment for  the "traitres à la Patrie". They were scum, and France is very ashamed by these men.

Hahh, you're nation is lucky. In here, Hungary, the scum, who supported the nazis (when there was a puppet goverment) after the war they went to support the commies torturing people. That's why I hate the communism, if there were the allies instead of the Stalin dictatorship these scum would be executed on sight. Now their grandchildren in charge in the parlament.I do respect the soliders, like Rommel, but you're right, who did war crimes should be punished. Sorry to gone off topic a bit. God be with you and you're nation, Red_Stinger!

Red_Stinger wrote:
EDIT: Zerstörer, you've forgot soviet, who bombs Finnish and Germans cities when they can, with Bombers or even with artillery. Some cities where properly destroyed: my mother borned in Beelitz, near Berlin, and she tell me that the citie was entirely devastated. For the same 'reason' that British or american.

I didn't forget, I just gave the more blatant examples easily recognised by most to make the point.
Time to wisen up, the lines are not as clear cut as some would like you to believe they are VERY grey...and in real life, justice lies with the victor/stronger who writes the history...anything else is hypocritical bullshit and 'moral high ground' is generally a very bad joke.

Last edited June 30, 2010 at 9:21 PM by Zerstörer

Zerstörer, I dont believe that lines are clear cut at all. I'm conscious that the world isnt black and white, but grey... Am I not enough clear about that in my precedent post?  ???

TheReaper, God be with and your nation too  ;D ;D
Anywhere there are opportunist, in Hungary or France. And France was more collaborating than resisting over nazis.
You shouldnt be blaming communism, communism was never really applicated. You should blaming Stalin and soviet politics, who tried to extend their influence over the world by enslaving the eastern europe instead of liberate it, and opportunist who make their life better by torturing people.
And USSR suffer from this dictatorship too.
In every time, in every nation, there was/is a lot of cruel men and good ones. In Hungary, France, Germany or USSR or any others! (sorry a bit off-topic too  ;))

I agree, Red_Stinger

ANYWAY


I think SS troops should have more bombastic names for aesthetics, like "Fatherland Volunteers" and similar, so they will be totally different to "Storm this" or "Assault that" which we already have. Also, there is a certain charm in giving extremely hardcore fanatics a funny name.

Again, that´s for the fanatics, if you wanted to show the professional, honor-bound side of the SS, I suppose a more formal name would be good.

I think relic didnt put "SS" on it becuase the laws of some countrys.

I think including the SS would be a great idea. If there are some who would find this offensive then they can hust not play! In a time when porn is readily availible to kids, and real blood and guts are seen whenever they want on the internet. Are we realy going to worry about the SS being in a comp game? Many of my friends that i have turned on to COH and EF, have learned more about WWII history through this game than they ever would have on thier own. I still believe (diversity=more fun)! I think the ostheer should have an SS officer that gives bonuses to neerby units.

OT:
@vonhaggon
*reading signature* *Laughing for 3 seconds....**reads it again* *Laughs for 2 more minutes**reads it again**Laughs for 5 more minutes* LOL

yes i agree that SS should be in ostheer,because waffen ss was a big part of EF fighting force,and the name shouldn't matter that much,as longer people recognize them as SS troops,like they could have camoulflage jackets like stormtroopers have,or SS marks in their helmets ;) ( though that need pretty good graphics to see...

I don't see why

I think people just want SS in because it is the SS

Like people want a super heavy tank just because its a
super heavy tank


Or hey it might just be me thinking of the british commandos throwing their uniform at the ground as the first name of them had the shortening of SS
There is something wrong with the youth today, why are they seeking the bad and terrible to be shown all the while it just feels like its to be in solely for the reason ''well because''

SS fanboys ::)

-STC- wrote:
I don't see why

I think people just want SS in because it is the SS

Like people want a super heavy tank just because its a
super heavy tank

Unlike with the stupid super heavy prototypes, it turns out the Waffen SS did participate in many important battles in World War II, and even feature in vCoH. So it is perfectly acceptable to include them in the mod.

All the modders would be doing is create them in a slightly more visually explicit way.

QuoteOr hey it might just be me thinking of the british commandos throwing their uniform at the ground as the first name of them had the shortening of SS

And they wanted to have the totenkopf (the skull) on their insignia, but they were not allowed to for PR reasons.

QuoteThere is something wrong with the youth today, why are they seeking the bad and terrible to be shown all the while it just feels like its to be in solely for the reason ''well because''

We are playing a game that deals with one of the MOST DEVASTATING WARS IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.

If I were a moralist prude like you, I would start with that.

Saavedra wrote:

QuoteThere is something wrong with the youth today, why are they seeking the bad and terrible to be shown all the while it just feels like its to be in solely for the reason ''well because''

We are playing a game that deals with one of the MOST DEVASTATING WARS IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.

If I were a moralist prude like you, I would start with that.

What, the Napoleonic wars were different? Or The Roman campaign against almost the whole world? Or in the Middle ages, when childrens sent to war to free Jerusalem and so on. This war ain't different, just happened over within a 100 years before. War, war never changes sounds familiar? :)
What do you think, what happens in Iraq, or america not operating death camps? Don't be naive. Read some books. For me the ww2 is interesting becouse it developes a new warfare, just the first ww with the machine gun, or Napoleon, who used mass Artillery in his battles. And just the military ss interest me, I'm vomiting from the Gestapo and other the death-brigades, it includes the NKVD.
Cheers.

I believe this thread has outlived its usefulness. We've mad it clear that although SS units will be included we'll never name them as SS.

Cheers