OFFICIAL POLL: Removing the original factions plus adding in retreat and vet

This is a serious Poll, so think about it.

As you know, Eastern Front is not without its problems, we have been bombarded by complaints since the release and we have done our very best to straighten out balance and bugs the best we can.
However, some of us do not think that this is enough. We achieved a first by adding in the Soviets to the rest of the original factions, it was a massive achievement, but during this time we were also dismayed when we discovered some serious gameplay breaking issues that could not be resolved without Relics help. Relic did help us, and we thank them for that, but its not enough, and our repeated attempts to contact them again for help have been met with an unfortunate silence.
So, there has been some discussion amongst Developers to whether or not we should take Eastern Front in a new direction. This would include:

• Removing two Relic factions (likely Brits and PE).


• Replacing an Allied faction with Soviets and an Axis faction with the Ostheer, allowing the re-crewing of weapons and other things we cannot do (Automatch, victory/defeat screens, etc).


• Adding the retreat ability and veterancy to the Soviets.

There are many issues that have cropped up and need to be addressed, as you can imagine the EF Development team is deeply divided over the subject. Your Vote and input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
EF Dev Team




FAQ

- if you remove one (or all) Allies faction then you could install ONLY Russian faction and it will be able to re-crew weapons?
The above is the only way to make sure that Soviets and Ostheer factions will be able to re-crew weapons normally like WH/US. It is also the only way that we can acomodate 'Ranking online' as well as being able to automatch as you normally do. Without replacing the 2 factions all of this cannot and will not be fixed


- vet-system is now not possible to implement? (same as previous question - if you replace it then it will be possible?)
It is possible, hence the answer "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions"

- retreat - same question, is it not possible to programm retreat without replacing old Relic faction?
It is possible, hence the answer "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions".

Quote**Update**
The Wehrmacht Terror Propaganda doctrine ability is now working properly against the Russians - forcing a retreat as with the other sides.

Relics community manager has stated that they will try to 'investigate (our problems) in the future', we have set up a prioritized list for them, so any faction removal may only be temporary if Relic kindly fix our Recrew/Automatch/Ranking issues.

PLEASE NOTE YOU MUST LOG IN TO SEE THE POLL AND VOTE

Last edited November 28, 2010 at 5:13 PM by BurroDiablo

I've read the text 3 times but still doesn't understand some details, could you please explain a little?:

- if you remove one (or all) Allies faction then you could install ONLY Russian faction and it will be able to re-crew weapons?

- vet-system is now not possible to implement? (same as previous question - if you replace it then it will be possible?)

- retreat - same question, is it not possible to programm retreat without replacing old Relic faction?

- do you need to replace all factions or just one of them?

1. This is correct.

2. It is possible, hence the answer "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions"

3. Same as above

4. Just one, the OF faction it would be in the case (PE/Brit)

What exactly you cannot do and you need vital help from relic?

As i understand recrewing heavy weapons (hmg´s and atguns) is the main problem

But whats the problem with retreat and vet system?

As i read in prevous posts, you can implant these abilitys without changing relic factions

- no retreat for soviet union:

No retreat is a new characteristic for a faction and important part of the soviet faction (historical)

As i remember in older posts the problem was with axis ability "force retreat" doesn´t work. is it still so?
Perhaps you can chance it and the infantry is instead pinned down. yeah i now it beats with soviet ability "for the motherland" but that would be a balance discussion.

- vet system as i remember (i mostly play against soviet) isn´t implentet yet. But you say you can do it

Another main problem is, that you can´t level your account when you play with soviet.
Does relic keeps silent on this too?


I think the community has adjusted to the possibility of 3 opponents each (3 allies vs. 3 axis factions), so it would be a deficit, if you can´t play with PE or brit along the other factions anymore..

There is no problem with retreat or vet, only wether to include them or not. These are elements we chose to omit from the Soviet factions but we have been criticised by many players for making this 'game breaking' decision. Lack of recrew is something that Relic could fix by modifying the DLL (we asked them about this in February), but they are yet to get back to us. The Ostheer is going to suffer from the no-recrew bug as well, only way to cure this currently is to replace 2 of the Relic factions.

The best thing about EF was that it dosnt modify the existing fractions. If EF would modify the existing game, even less people would want to have it.

No recrew is not a big problem for Soviets with no mobile MGs. Ostheer should have a buildable LMG squad (without a tripod) that would work like BAR infantry.

I like the no retreat for Soviets, and no vet works well with no retreat becouse you dont have to worry about vet 3 units. You just spam, spam, spam like the Soviets did.  :)

Thanx for explanation. I think Killar have a good point that this poll is not as much about retreat and vet system but about recrewing and replacing PE/Brit. He also mention ranking system which is improtant for some players too - not for me personally but there are sure some players who need this to have fun.

This is a tough one boys, the final decision should be on dev's shoulders but as you asked about opinions here is mine:

Recrewing - is important element of the game and should be implemented at ANY costs. And I'm saying it as hardcore PE player who will miss PE very much. But if Ostheer will level the absention of PE then it will be ok. However recrewing bug could be avoided at least by creating a faction which doesn't have any weapons to recrew - like PE (they have only doctrinal Flak38&88mm which could be recrewed). This means no AT guns, mortars or MGs, no emplacements which could be recrewed like Brit's. Of course there is still possibility to recrew Wehr/US weapons which then would be missed in this case.

Retreat - is no problem as it is a part of Soviet strategy, in some cases it even improved my game because I treat units differently and I'm not under stress that I forgot to retreat - I just don't have that option so if suppressed I click to go and if they die it was maximum I could have done.

Vet system - I would like some better that it is now, but if it remains as it is I could go with this too.

Last edited April 13, 2010 at 7:30 PM by wordsmith

The factions that will be removed are the least popular aka the OF factions.
This effectively means that EF serves as a similar expansion to OF but instead of being able to play with WH/US and OF, you'll be playing with WH/US and EF


The above is the only way to make sure that Soviets and Ostheer factions will be able to re-crew weapons normally like WH/US. It is also the only way that we can acomodate 'Ranking online' as well as being able to automatch as you normally do. Without replacing the 2 factions all of this cannot and will not be fixed

Adding the retreat back to the soviets , is THE ONLY WAY to allow Prop War(and the officer equivalent) to work with the soviets. Without adding back the retreat these features will NOT work.

Please note that only the 3-4 hard capped upgraded conscript NKVD squads will retain the 'no retreat'

So these are the only available options to choose from

Last edited April 13, 2010 at 3:54 PM by Zerstörer

Zerstörer wrote:

It is also the only way that we can acomodate 'Ranking online' as well as being able to automatch as you normally do.

If you replace brits and Pe, you can´t differentiate between your normal relic factions and the new factions, when you look at your account, right?
Means ether if you play ostheer or PE, you will level up the same faction

Zerstörer wrote:
[b]
Please note that only the 3-4 hard capped upgraded conscript NKVD squads will retain the 'no retreat'

So if you add the retreat ability for the whole army, some units can retreat some not?

Would be the solution for that.
Anyway who retreats in russian faction will be shot  ;D


If relic has to chance a DLL file it is a chance for the game. it would be an update and they don´t intend to make one.
They get no money for it

About replacing factions:

The main achievment of your mod is, in my opinion, that you [b]did´nt replace a faction you made a new one along with the unchanged relic factions
Other mods modified all factions but you added something completly new

Last edited April 13, 2010 at 4:48 PM by Killar

Killar wrote:
About replacing factions:

The main achievment of your mod is, in my opinion, that you did´nt replace a faction you made a new one along with the unchanged relic factions
Other mods modified all factions but you added something completly new

+1
old ladies applause

Paciat wrote:

Killar wrote:
About replacing factions:

The main achievment of your mod is, in my opinion, that you did´nt replace a faction you made a new one along with the unchanged relic factions
Other mods modified all factions but you added something completly new

+1
old ladies applause

+1

Could it be done this way that you copy PE/Brit and then replace them with RedArmy/Ostheer and then add PE/Brit as actually new factions - this way RedArmy and Ostheer should be able to recrew weapons and PE/Brit wouldn't? PE doesn't have any weapons to recrew anyway, and Brit only emplacements.

wordsmith wrote:
Could it be done this way that you copy PE/Brit and then replace them with RedArmy/Ostheer and then add PE/Brit as actually new factions - this way RedArmy and Ostheer should be able to recrew weapons and PE/Brit wouldn't? PE doesn't have any weapons to recrew anyway, and Brit only emplacements.

I sort of like this idea, and it's actually what I was thinking about once. If this isn't a possibility I would like to see all Relic factions removed, not just two of them. I think that no retreat for only conscripts is good, and that some vet system would be nice as well.

So basically, keep all the Relic factions or don't keep any (just keep EF factions).

For now I'm going with: "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions"

Keep in mind that the soviets will never be able to recrew weapons without replacing the OF factions.  And just to make clear what we mean by replacing:

Essentially this fixes all the issues BUT turns EF into an expansion similar to OF where you have 4 fully playable factions in game at any one time.
When you fire up OF, you have the matchup WH/PE/US/British
When you fire up EF, you'll have the matchup WH/Ostheer/US/Soviets

wordsmith wrote:
Could it be done this way that you copy PE/Brit and then replace them with RedArmy/Ostheer and then add PE/Brit as actually new factions - this way RedArmy and Ostheer should be able to recrew weapons and PE/Brit wouldn't? PE doesn't have any weapons to recrew anyway, and Brit only emplacements.

i was thinking of the same thing  :)

That's a major change in the other factions ,so no it can't happen

Just one point i want to say about this discussion;
WHEN red army get veterancy AND retreat all of you
should think about the consequences; what will make
red army now so special or so unique?
For me red army is a unique faction BECAUSE it break down
CoH mechanics and that is a really cool thing for me because red army had to be played different from old factions.

So please think about consequences and the price.
I think you guys will find a lot of arguments for
or against one idea or poll option and so i dont want to
interrupt the "voice of the community" any more ;)

Lord Rommel

I would like just to remove all the Relic Factions, including Wher and US. Does it really make sense to have them fighting side by side... or can they not be removed like that, perhaps locked? It's just my feeling that if you're going to remove two Relic factions, then why keep any? (Again, maybe a technical problem, IDK)

wordsmith wrote:
Could it be done this way that you copy PE/Brit and then replace them with RedArmy/Ostheer and then add PE/Brit as actually new factions - this way RedArmy and Ostheer should be able to recrew weapons and PE/Brit wouldn't? PE doesn't have any weapons to recrew anyway, and Brit only emplacements.

Btits have mortar, MG, Bofors, 17lbs, 25lbs emplacements, commando MG and mortar. All of these can be recrewed. Thats more than any other fraction.  :P

Ah nbeerbower your one of those historical freaks ay? XD

I'd only go with that if we had more races to replace the Americas and Wehr with (so 4 EF sides), and that would take a lot of more time.
Plus, original point of the mod was to add to the game, not remove from it.

wordsmith's idea is interesting. Like Zerstorer said it's a major change to the vanilla factions, something we've always been against.
But, a very good point. Would just need to edit every pickup-able heavy weapon, and swap out the British pickup squad, for a Soviet one.
Paciat has a good point also, but you could say Brit heavy weapons are more easily available (built straight where their needed also), plus majority of the time you can't recrew them, they get destroyed instead.
But, removing the recrew ability will stop them from getting other Allied/Axis heavy weapons too.

Guys feel this should be added to the poll? Allow Soviets to recrew heavy weapons, at the expensive of the Brits being able to do so.

All factions have recrewable weapons/emplacements. Brits also have commando MG/Mortar.

Re-crewing is as much about your own weapons as it is about stealing the enemy's weapons.

PE will happily steal 57s/mgs/mortars(even friendly WH ones!) etc and stolen weapons can give you that necessary advantage (surely you know how useful captured MG42s are!).

Beaking core mechanics is not what makes a faction different, not in my opinion. There are four factions as a testiment to that...ane the Brits who somewhat deviated from those core mechanics, are the least popular of the four (see a pattern?).

Last edited April 13, 2010 at 7:50 PM by Zerstörer

Some simple facts that will dictate weather or not these changed need to happen.  Please not that the possible solutions to the problem are ONLY, either removing the OF factions.  OR Relic adding the functionality required.

#1:  Veterancy:  This shouldn't be hard to understand.  Veterancy is a very basic and critical component to COH.  The soviets dont have veterancy, the "solution" that is built into the soviets by having different infantry doesn't even close to address this problem.  The ostheer will also need a veterancy system that works.

#2: Retreat:  At some piont you have to ask yourself, is the "realism" in the faction hurting the actual playability of the game.  what if you could have inf climb on a tank and throw a grenade into the hatch to kill the tank? would it be realistic? yes it would...would it break the game and not work at all in COH? YES.  The fact that the soviets cant retreat is a problem.  Ive heard some uninformed players talk about adapting to the faction and play it differently than traditional factions.  You DO need to play the soviets differently but retreat (like veterancy) is critical to making any faction work.  The ebb and flow of COH is a back and forth combat system that allows for comprehensive attacking and retreating based on battlefield conditions.  If a faction cant retreat the faction WILL fail.

Retreat To me, the best part with the soviets is the "no retreat". It opends up a whole new gameplay in CoH.

Ranking Thank god for no ranking, that's almost the best part, no drop-hackers.

Recrew No recrew works well ingame, one of the weak spots of the brutal soviet manspam. (just think about if they spamed that howitzer mortar and recrewed them with conscripts)  :S

Veterancy not sure, However it have to not be a US or PE copy.

Automatch Hates VP...

the problem is that ostheer won't be able to recrew :/
but you should keep the German factions, both are fun to use against USSR

Hi,

Quote4 fully playable factions in game at any one time

,
1).Why only 4 Playable units with full functionality and why not 6 or 8?
2).And, Why does it effect only the expansion factions ?

Anyway, Recrew /Vet would be nice to have elements ...My favourite faction are the brits , But would love to play the WH/OH-USA/USSR..

Regards
funnyme

Engine limitations mean that there can only be 4 fully functioning factions. This is beyond our control and can only be fixed by Relic via a patch.

It affects British and Panzer Elite factions because they were deemed as the least played and least enjoyed. Apparantly.

Yeh, only 4 can fully work 100% (re-crew, automatch, ranking).
Unless Relic changes something on their end.

I would like to see the British and the PE removed, even though they are fun to play as. They just cause a headache when deciding who to play as. I don't want to have to pick between three allied factions and three Germans faction, then decide who to play against. But i don't want Russia to have the option to retreat or gain veteran, it is what makes them so unique. But the ostheer should be able to vet and possibly retreat. So get rid of the PE/British and allow the Russians to re-crew their weapons.

Dragon93 wrote:
Yeh, only 4 can fully work 100% (re-crew, automatch, ranking).
Unless Relic changes something on their end.

I don't know if I posted my idea clearly before, so again, in regards to Dragon93's post: is it possible to make 4 100% fully working factions?: Wehr, US, Ostheer, Soviet AND 2 "new" factions PE&Brit? While PE&Brit would be copied 1:1...

I know that it maybe not so easy as I imagine it ;) when I was younger I made some code working too and often simple ideas required tons of programming so please correct me if it is not possible or extremelly difficult to make this way. And yes this suggestion will render PE&Brit little less valuable since they will be not able to recrew but at least we can keep 6 factions, and 2 of new should work 100%.

Really I wouldn't fret so much about this until the Ostheer come out. It's reasonable that the Soviets (minus the NKVD conscripts) get retreat, in fact it's more historically accurate. And a vet system would be nice too. Recrewable weapons with the Soviets aren't necessary right now. But, when the Ostheer roll around - it appears removing the PE and Brits is our best option.

It does seem possible that you could keep the Soviets unrecrewable, and swap the PE for the Ostheer. Then just play the PE as a "mobile faction."

All in all. Let's slow things down and get a new patch out giving the Soviets retreat and vet before doing anything too major, and let's not stop hounding Relic. Perhaps a community-wide petition or mass-email of some sort would bring more light on the issue?

To tell the truth, I thought that the factions were right on the money.

I like how the Russians were historically correct, and the Russians don't need veterancy, because upgrades are available for them, and I think that suffices.

Also, about the recrewing heavy weapons, if it is too much trouble, why don't you guys give the two new factions the ability to salvage those items instead?

Plus, I kind of like the no retreat rule, it makes more sense, since that actually happened in Russia.

Lastly, PLEASE don't remove any of the factions, because I liked the idea of Eastern Front of being a free expansion. This way, people would just go to Eastern Front just for the variety.

Just thinking if the community can do something like a petition to move relic update the dll file.

As we are consumers, relic should have an interest to keep their purchaser loyal.

For me the best thing about this mod is that it adds to the game, and doesn't remove anything from it.

I really wouldn't want to see EF remove the OF factions just for the sake of recrew and ranking.

I like no recrew, like has been said earlier it is a counterpoint to the larger amount of troops the soviets can field, if they could recrew then it would mean quite a large faction redesign (i imagine)

I cannot for the life of me understand why people need a fake little army badge telling them how well theyve done to enjoy a game, who cares about ranks if your having a good time playing the game.

I would like to see the Ostheer with a different vet system to the soviets, but if the Ost had no recrew I genuinely wouldn't care so long as it was counterbalanced by something giving them an equal advantage.

At the end of the day I'd say you should stay true to the original idea behind EF, to expand CoH, and not to take things away from the player.

Besides, as "unpopular" as PE and Commonwealth are I'm sure theres a lot of people who play them and will be equally if not more pissed off about having their favorite faction removed from the mod.

To be fair, I think that if you did make this change, you'd have even more people mouthing off on the internetz about how they think it sucks.

The main reason that people moved away from this mod was the rather messy state it got released in, which has put those with no patience off. Release some updates to lure people back in, and keep going  :)

Ramble over, i'm sure you'll come to the right descision anyhow.

Cheers

The small things such as no retreat, vet and re-crew are what makes the CCCP so interesting and unique.
I believe this voting thing probably came because of the Ostheer, to make them suffer the same restrictions as the Soviets would`nt bring much good, so, my suggestion would be (if there`s no other choice) - replace the OF factions - but keep the play-style of the Soviets as is. They`r not perfect - but it`s hell of a fun to have such different faction with radical approach - it`s what makes them so dinamic ... ;)

  I will say this, the more i think about it, the more it seems that people ant to still have the British and PE armies. I like the two factions, but I don't want to have a mod get ruined because of server limitations.
  Get the Ostheer in by any means, and then try to find a way to put the British and PE back into the mod. Go true to your word and deliver your promise. You said there be an Ostheer, put it in. then go back and fix the server limitation problems.

On a semi-related note. If retreating is added to the Soviets - I would keep no-retreat not only for NKVDs but also regular conscripts. This shows that they were disposable, and It would seem like a downgrade to get NKVDs if you couldn't retreat them any longer.

me and the chaps who play this have a plan for Allies:
One Russian and One English army, (commonwealth my bad) the Russians run out and cap and the English dig in its very good and rather solid (just don't let the Russian fox run to far)

Registered just to make a comment here...

So, here we go:

• Add recrewing as there were cases of using trophy weaponry by Red Army.



• Add vet system, because experience of those soldiers, who lived through war, was drastically higher than experience of allied folks, who won some battles in France and Holland (even though they had special training before action and most of the Red Army were conscripts). Is there a possibility of making a mix of US and WH vet system? Like an upgrade in Armory, which gives vet1 to all built units? (via script, if possible) and the possibility of earning additional vet ranks on the battlefield? Would be nice imo.



• Retreat... Well, just because I was born in USSR I dislike all this "Enemy at the Gates" thing... So I second someone who proposed "no retreat only for NKVD squads". For example you can add retreat to Command Squad, but if it uses retreat, all nearby squads would've become supressed/pinned (morale down due to commander's retreat).

I like soviets vet, retreat factor(if it will change maybe conscripts will be the exception), and besides they can't recrew by now it can't be helped... but that not should be a death blow to EF like luz777 said:

Quote
The main reason that people moved away from this mod was the rather messy state it got released in, which has put those with no patience off. Release some updates to lure people back in, and keep going  :)

Don't listen to those losers, your mod is excellent, and i think minor changes could be implemented to make it better, so i vote for keep the faction the same. It's a shame no matter that the recrew bug still present... but hey, US have rifleman to do the job, and brits have tommies, they can do the "recrew" job, after all, those were their weapons, so why soviets would care ;D; in other hand, you could make ostheer and soviets, if the former will use weapons that could be recrewed, able to destroy them when all their crew die, like in ToV Tiger Ace mission, when you kill the two members, the third dies and the weapons just blows.

Why is recrewing important?

It's simple, because it put unpredictable thus unbalanced element into game. Imagine Soviet player making ZiS2 AT gun, playing vs Axis, Axis player manages to decrew it. Now there is one AT gun on a scene but Soviet could not use it anymore. But Axis could!

If Wehr player f.e. I wouldn't have to build Tier2 because I will stole this gun and skip right to Tier3 or 4. If PE even better because PE doesn't have a chance to build something like this. So here we have a situation that Soviet could NOT use his own weapons BUT they could be used against him. Not to mention that Soviet engineers can't place mines (even with Sturmovie Eng. upgrade) to at least mine that damn gun.

In such situation Soviet player must be very cautious with such equipment or doesn't use it at all. And this is why recrewing is important IMO. And same would apply to Ostheer too.....

FWIW I also prefer that the russians stay without the ability to recrew.  While it seemed like a pain at first, it is one of the uniques that you need to learn how to play around.  And it makes them a truly new side, not just more of the same.

I know others have said it before, but it's worth considering - if the russians could recrew, and they have 8 man squads running around then they'd be OP all over again.  I think the balance currently is pretty close.

Getting the Ostheer to have recrewing is another matter.  Being a german faction you'd hope they could.  I'd put my signature on a note to Relic if one's getting started.  I don't mind if there's no online ladder for these mods, but not being able to recrew is a bug pure and simple.

In fact the saddest thing is that if Relic aren't keen to fix the recrewing bug, it points to them not considering any further official expansions.  And that's a shame (even from a purely commercial perspective - there's lots of coin out there to be liberated from we punters yet !).

BurroDiablo wrote:- if you remove one (or all) Allies faction then you could install ONLY Russian faction and it will be able to re-crew weapons?[/b]
The above is the only way to make sure that Soviets and Ostheer factions will be able to re-crew weapons normally like WH/US. It is also the only way that we can acomodate 'Ranking online' as well as being able to automatch as you normally do. Without replacing the 2 factions all of this cannot and will not be fixed





Why should the soviets NOW be able to recrew the weapons? Aren´t they strong enough? And why the fuck is it neccessary to get a ranking system? Playing computer games is for fun - not to raise the self-confidence.



Quote
- vet-system is now not possible to implement? (same as previous question - if you replace it then it will be possible?)
It is possible, hence the answer "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions"




Why should the soviets gain veterancy? Most of the units are strong enough to resist and are cheap enough to replace. You just have to spam tons of ingenerys to your opponent to win the game.



Quote
- retreat - same question, is it not possible to programm retreat without replacing old Relic faction?
It is possible, hence the answer "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions".
Adding the retreat back to the soviets , is THE ONLY WAY to allow Prop War(and the officer equivalent) to work with the soviets.

Ok, this is a major problem but you should have known this during the conceptional phase. Why don´t you implement a retreat function to the soviets which gets only effected when prop war is used? Not possible?

-

Sorry guys but you should have think about these points during the conceptional phase of this mod.
In my opinion all of the thoughts above are moving into the wrong direction and I do not think that this is the result of claims and doubts you get. I guess this is a result of massive problems with implementation of the Ostheer even if nobody knows what they can expect except of the developers.

Maybe you should have better released this amazing mod (which I didn´t play anymore due to some balance crap) until both new factions were ready and playable.

You have always praised to implement to completely new and different factions in a full working relic system. If you are now going to do such major changings your mod is not better than all the other mods (don´t get me wrong, some of them are also amazing) and your philosophy has died.

It is like in real life and absolutely normal.
Major faults in the concepts mostly result in problems after going live but a redesign is the worst way even if a mod for a computer game isn´t really critical to the majority of you/us.

Improving insead of changing should be the device.

Last edited April 14, 2010 at 8:37 AM by Westoffensive

Westoffensive wrote:
Sorry guys but you should have think about these points during the conceptional phase of this mod.

If you knew anything about the team, you'd know we couldn't because our Lead Developer was a stubborn dick. Now he's gone, we have the fluidity we need to make the necessary changes, even if they are extreme.

QuoteIn my opinion all of the thoughts above are moving into the wrong direction and I do not think that this is the result of claims and doubts you get. I guess this is a result of massive problems with implementation of the Ostheer even if nobody knows what they can expect except of the developers.

Moving into the wrong direction? Explain. Plus, there will be no massive problems with implementing the Ostheer, they will suffer the same problems as the Soviets and that is all.

QuoteMaybe you should have better released this amazing mod (which I didn´t play anymore due to some balance crap) until both new factions were ready and playable.

Again, our old Lead Developer pushed this for a premature release, there was nothing the current team could have done about it.

QuoteYou have always praised to implement to completely new and different factions in a full working relic system. If you are now going to do such major changings your mod is not better than all the other mods (don´t get me wrong, some of them are also amazing) and your philosophy has died.

What Philosophy? Being tied down to some unwritten rule that holds back progress? We implemented a new faction, bravo, but we also encountered the problems that come with that. You think recrewing would be out if there wasn't a bug? Of course it wouldn't.

QuoteIt is like in real life and absolutely normal.
Major faults in the concepts mostly result in problems after going live but a redesign is the worst way even if a mod for a computer game isn´t really critical to the majority of you/us.

Improving insead of changing should be the device.

Improving results in changing and changing can result in improving. I'm afraid no matter what, you are stuck with change.

Since yersterday if have read every comment.

This topic was started because many people are unsatisfied with the lack of

- no retreat
- veterancy
- recrewing

I know that the hard core fans of this mod don´t bother that.
But there are many people outside this forum who wants to play that mod, but these limitations holds them back.

If we are discussing about dying of this mod, because of the lack of gamer, we should think of that.

More people could be attracted, if we give them what they want:

Retreat and Veterancy

- No Retreat only for the conscripts would be an interesting game part (cheap spammable infantry but cannon fudder) and despite from that historical. In addition the axis ability would work.

My question to deverlopers:

Is it possible to add retreat to a unit like strelky, but to avoid that the player can use the ability for this unit?

- veterancy, why not? The armoury supports the troops only with weapons not with veterancy.

These changes are already possible without changing vrelic factions

- the recrewing lack is still a very dramatically problem. I think this is the pivot of this discussion because of the upcoming Ostheer.

Despite of that it only effects heavy weapons HMG and ATguns. Light Weapons like Shreks and Bars are already useable by Soviet.

But is the recrewing problem really worthy of changing vcoh?

Last edited April 14, 2010 at 10:46 AM by Killar

1. RETREAT
I really don't know why so many people think that Red Army not retreating is so "historically correct". Yes, sure, there were times when Red Army units weren't allowed to retreat (especially in the early phases of the war), but later, and especially in 1944 (when this game is set!) it was not the case. And what about the famous Hitler order to not retreat? It makes more historical sense for a game set in 1944 to have the Germans not retreating than Soviets. Also, there's a difference between strategic and tactical retreat (in game it's always tactical!).
In short: ALLOW RETREAT FOR RED ARMY (except maybe for conscripts and NKVD team), IT MAKES MORE SENSE IN EVERY WAY AND MAKES FOR A BETTER GAMEPLAY!

2. VETERANCY
I'm for it, it makes sense and makes the game more fun.

3. RANKINGS AND AUTOMATCH
It would be nice, but not at expense of other things. In short, it's the least important thing (for me).

4. RE-CREWING
This is A MUST HAVE in my opinion, even at expense of PE & Brits. After all, if somebody starts COH:EF it's most likely because he wants to play Soviets or Ostheer, not Brits or PE. For Brits and PE there's always the regular COH. Also, having 6 factions makes tougher balancing.

Soviet_Justice wrote:
1. RETREAT
(especially in the early phases of the war), but later, and especially in 1944 (when this game is set!)

the game isn´t set in 1944

Killar wrote:

Soviet_Justice wrote:
1. RETREAT
(especially in the early phases of the war), but later, and especially in 1944 (when this game is set!)

the game isn´t set in 1944

The game is obviously set in 1944 and/or '45, since many of the weapons Red Army (and the Germans) use didn't exist in '41 and '42. The campaign (once and if EF team makes it) might be set in some other time.

If this mod is to have even the slightest hope of becoming a big hit that appeals to everyone who plays COH, removing any of the original factions will be the death of it.

The fact that all of the original maps and factions are available while playing this mod is what sets it apart from all the other mods for COH. Take that away and this mod is dead.

And honestly the no recrewing function doesn't strike me as big of a deal, and I'm sure you can work around the propaganda war problem. Maybe make it so that it has a different effect on soviets, like increasing their vulnerability to suppression.

CAN WE STOP USING BOLD

oh my goodness guys it looks like a couple of seven year olds yelling at one another. I know I know your gonna say "that's the title idiot" but listen when you put SOMETHING IN BOLD it looks more violent to readers.

ford_prefect wrote:
SOMETHING IN BOLD it looks more violent to readers

KILL RELIC!!!

But, seriously we need to have some community-organized letter/petition to Relic.

wordsmith i like the ostheer you made but the fuel loss is kind of harsh espesialy in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 maches but other than that great job

Last edited April 14, 2010 at 1:39 PM by sovietwarmachine