Ability suggestion thread:

What about Ostheer doctrine Paratrooper spotters that call in Combat Paratroopers?? Some kind of German faction NEEDS paratroopers.

@Mobile 'Nut Cracker' Flak 88: was discussed before

Zerstörer wrote:
Nah, you just don't get that a Tiger 1 was armed with the flak 88 and the reason the coh 88 has that range is because its a structure that doesn't move and can be killed easily....not even relic would make these mobile and these guys are full of bad ideas lol

@snipers: do they cloak when in cover or as an ability?

allthatisman wrote:
Abilities:
Stats:
His experience lets him cloak at max rate (normal snipers in green cover), even when he has no cover.
Has the sight range of a recon unit (jeep or motorbike), with the same detection, however, when he moves camouflaged, it is 25% movement speed. (25% slower than regular snipers)

@Bigger is Better: tigers already have an 88mm gun, panthers simply never had it  ::) only the schmalturm design for the panther2 which was never built

allthatisman wrote:
Bigger is Better:
(Passive)
All heavy tanks (Panthers and Tigers) have 88 mm cannon.
But Armor costs 10% more fuel to create.

@tiger gruppen: would it really be possible to have 3 tiger1 and one tiger2 at the same time??? balance  :o

allthatisman wrote:
4 CPT
Cost: 1,000 mp (220 fuel over 1 min time) Must be able to afford fuel
Only 1 Tiger-gruppe on the field at one time.
Tiger-Gruppe:
Call in 2 Tiger I tanks to the field.

5 CPT
Cost: 1,200 mp (260 fuel over 1 min time) Must be able to afford fuel
Call in once per battle.
Große Tiger-Gruppe:
Call in 1 Tiger I and 1 Tiger II (King tiger) to the field.

Last edited March 14, 2010 at 9:33 PM by kingtiger

since when did panthers have 88m cannons?

Versedhorison wrote:
since when did panthers have 88m cannons?

Since people started thinking it'd be cool having them ingame even if they were never properly made and are OP

I have a "new" idea:

First aid kid upgrade - all infantry (not weapon crews) can use a first aid kid for 20 ammo if their lost at least 1 man.

It works the same as in Causeway and Tiger Ace campains but the healer will help the closest man that is still alive but on the ground (not neseserly from the same squad) and then the wounded man joines the squad.

Also all infantry and weapon crews slowly heal themselves 10MP/min. (As fast as vet 1 wehrmacht and def. vet 3 PE)
200MP/40Fuel

Last edited April 1, 2010 at 2:13 PM by Paciat

Paciat wrote:

First aid kid upgrade - all infantry (not weapon crews) can use a first aid kid for 20 ammo if their lost at least 1 man.

It works the same as in Causeway and Tiger Ace campains but the healer will help the closest man that is still alive but on the ground (not neseserly from the same squad) and then the wounded man joines the squad.

Well Paciat i like the idea. However I believe that it would be better to make slightly less powerful by doing two things: 1) Instead of a First-Aid Kit make it some kind of Pain-killing drug (perhaps Morphine) which causes the soldier to join your squad for a short period of time before he becomes wounded again or unless he reaches the Main Base Area or a Medic Bunker .

If u can pick up survivers from the ground with minimal wait and have join the squad for as long as he isn't killed, that can cause spam (just have a Wehr spam Pios and when the Medics are done u pick up the scraps).

Panzerwerfmine AT grenade

Cost: 30 munitions

A german squad throws an extremly powerful anti tank grenade at enemy armor that  causes massive damage to an enemy tank, but does little or no damage to any other targets. It can take half the health off of a t34 instantly, but hasd a short throw range.

guynumber7 wrote:
Panzerwerfmine AT grenade

Cost: 30 munitions

A german squad throws an extremly powerful anti tank grenade at enemy armor that  causes massive damage to an enemy tank, but does little or no damage to any other targets. It can take half the health off of a t34 instantly, but hasd a short throw range.

My friend i believe that this handy tool is all ready represented in game. The PE AT grenade is the Panzerwurfmine. So maybe we can find something that isn't represented. Perhaps using the Kar98k's- AT-grenade cup launcher-Gewehr Panzergranate but it wasn't to useful from what i heard.

Brits have similiar rifle launched grenade.

Yes but its AI this one happens to be AT :P. It makes it easier to animate. All u have to do is change the damage multipliers and target preference

Its a vietlord idea.
A very simple and great idea.

Pionneers prepare a camo square zone.

All units in that squere will be camouflaged.
It can be called a camo net or whatever.
Or pioneers can have an ability like an over-repair that works on all units.
When the unit moves or shoots the ability will end.

Last edited April 9, 2010 at 5:11 PM by Paciat

I like the camo-square idea, but than they could infiltrate pios and just hide out units like a sniper and play hide-and seek all day.

Akalonor wrote:
I like the camo-square idea, but than they could infiltrate pios and just hide out units like a sniper and play hide-and seek all day.

If an enemy unit gets close to the the camo-square or if youre units start to shoot from it, it disapeares.
It can cost ammo so an Ostheer player wont make it everywhere.
Sitting under a camo net all game wont help you win but in some situations it will be usefull.
There will be no damage bonus but it will be usefull at atacking moving supprt teams (mortars MGs), flanking tanks and guns, etc.

Would it be large enough to fit an AT gun under it...

I have an idea!
OFFESNIVE and DEFENSIVE stance buttons in Hq:
It would work easily - in Hq there would be two buttons. At the beggining of the game it would be pressed DEFENSIVE button. Player can't have both or none of them pressed. It would be a global ability, with 1-2 minutes of cooldown and unlimited working time.
OFFENSIVE - all player's units gain, for instance, 5%* suppression resistance, movement speed and for example firing speed.
DEFENSIVE - all player's units on alied teritory gain, again for instance*, 5% fire resistance, increased damage when firing from buildings and cover, they suppress 5% easier.

* - I don't know what value would fit, because more advanced players are more experienced in this per cents.

Now why: German ary during years 41-45 had a few offensive and deffensive operations. Barbarossa (Offensive), then winter 41-42 (deffensive), next Fall Blau (Offensive), than Stalingrad  (firstly ofensive, but then deffensive), Kursk battle ( Offensive), and after it it was rather defensive war. So that's why I think that giving this button(s) in Hq will greatly increase reality - because war on the East was sometimes defensive and sometimes offensive, Ostheer should reflect that.

off and def seems good, but activate it should cost something

Yes, you are right, but if this abilites would have limited time and give significant changes in unit's power. I suggest that the ability should incerase unit's firepower, speed, etc. slightly.

I think Offensive should allow them to be suppressed easier, and defensive not apply to only your territory, DEF should be something like  +10%Health (etc)
OFF should be something like +10% Damage (etc).

Rommel has a similar idea in his concept.

cephalos wrote:
...OFFESNIVE and DEFENSIVE stance buttons in Hq...

It is a nice idea mate :) very similar to Lord Rommel's concept btw but! with small exception: such ability would be OP if it would not have also some disadvantage! In terms of balance, other factions has to pay in some way for ability to boost troops. Also in Lord Romeel's concept he suggest it as payable function, not for free.

I like simple ideas and this is one of them, but we need to consider balance always otherwise no one would want to play such game.

Akalonor wrote:
I think Offensive should allow them to be suppressed easier, and defensive not apply to only your territory, DEF should be something like  +10%Health (etc)
OFF should be something like +10% Damage (etc).

DEFfensive should suppress easier - MGs are typical defensive weapon, don't you think? Health boost is also good idea, but I would rather insist on significant damage boost when firing from buildins/trenches.

OFFensive should focus on blitz-like attacks -speed, firing speed, incerased damge and suppression ressistance.

wordsmith, thanks that you reminded me about balance. I Just love creating things like that, but I often overpower them. So that's my idea:
What OFFensive gives you, DEFFensive takes back. For instance: When you turn on OFFensive, your army moves faster, shoots faster, inflicts greater damage, but they suppression fire is less effective, they do'n have this health boost and their garnisson fire is less effective.
And it works in the second side -What DEFF  gives you, OFF takes back. Simple nad, what's more, very real.

cephalos this sort of idea would go well as doctrine abilities not as some HQ ability to avoid people declaring OP.

Yes, it would also work as doctrine ability, but then there would apperar comments like: "oh, it's like Blitzkrieg Assault in Wehr, useless".
I was thinking about this something special for Ostheer, making them a little bit different from other German armies. And yes, it would be OP if we won't balance it. And I repeat, that it wouldn't be something like "shooting twice times faster" or "two times more health", but slightly increasing unit's possibilites while decreasing rest which is not so needed. That's why it should be free, with maybe 2 minutes cooldown.

neosdark wrote:

guynumber7 wrote:
Panzerwerfmine AT grenade

Cost: 30 munitions

A german squad throws an extremly powerful anti tank grenade at enemy armor that  causes massive damage to an enemy tank, but does little or no damage to any other targets. It can take half the health off of a t34 instantly, but hasd a short throw range.

My friend i believe that this handy tool is all ready represented in game. The PE AT grenade is the Panzerwurfmine. So maybe we can find something that isn't represented. Perhaps using the Kar98k's- AT-grenade cup launcher-Gewehr Panzergranate but it wasn't to useful from what i heard.

oh the PWM is the PE AT nade? darn.

My ideas for Ostheer abilities:

repair destroyed enemy tanks

call in tanks captured from other armies like: 
French tanks:
Ft-17, S-35, Renault-35, H-39, and Char b1-bis.
Italien:
M11/39, and M13/40
Czech:
panzer 38t

call in a Wespe. (make it cheaper than Hummel)

call in a Sturmtiger. (cost munitions to shoot it)

call in a Famo. Famos can carry in special engineers to repair tanks quickly, or can simply tow a damaged/destroyed tank away to repair it safely.

A little OP with the call-ins too many of them and besides all those tanks will have to be created,animated,then coded one at a time, which will kill the developers and cost time . I like the FAMO idea, label it Sd. Kfz 9 or else people will get confused.

Oh, I didnt mean for it to sound like you could have the ability to call in all of those tanks. I was just throwing out some suggestions. Yea, if you could call in all of those it would be way OP.

when you play as Ostheer the more enemy contact (means kills) you have the bigger possibility is that there are many russians in front of you trying a breach. So you can request a a backup like a tank battle group to assist. this feature would not be linked with doctrine but avaiable at your command post.

Perhaps you can get a call in as a vet ability

Just thougts  ;D

neosdark wrote:

Paciat wrote:

First aid kid upgrade - all infantry (not weapon crews) can use a first aid kid for 20 ammo if their lost at least 1 man.

It works the same as in Causeway and Tiger Ace campains but the healer will help the closest man that is still alive but on the ground (not neseserly from the same squad) and then the wounded man joines the squad.

Well Paciat i like the idea. However I believe that it would be better to make slightly less powerful by doing two things: 1) Instead of a First-Aid Kit make it some kind of Pain-killing drug (perhaps Morphine) which causes the soldier to join your squad for a short period of time before he becomes wounded again or unless he reaches the Main Base Area or a Medic Bunker .

If u can pick up survivers from the ground with minimal wait and have join the squad for as long as he isn't killed, that can cause spam (just have a Wehr spam Pios and when the Medics are done u pick up the scraps).

1. Every man picked of the ground will cost ammo.

2. Olny squads that lost some men can use this ability. It will not create new squads so it will not cause spam.
The defensive doctrine medic bunker (new squads and reinforce) or UKs CCS near a HQ can cause spam.

3. 5 seconds under fire is a lot of time.

4. It can be a global upgrade that will slow teching-up. I like the idea that you can use men from different fractions, (not only Ostheer wounded) but wasting youre fuel and ammo in early game can be the reason that you loose the game. (just like a piospam that was countered)

hgghg4 wrote:
No Sarin gas, wasn't used in ww2 because it wasn't developed in a stable form until late 44 early 45 AND gas weapons where not used in WW2 on the battlefield (Hitler was injured by Mustard Gas in WW1 and didn't want to put his troops through that, kinda funny for a man who slaughtered innocents....)

You know something else funny for Hitler? He passed legislation to cook a live lobster humanily, you had to kill it first before cooking it.

He was a vegetarian too I believe.About the Lobster, I'm on his side for that, Go Lobsters!

Yep he was on strange mofo. Just look at as his mustastash, i mean whats up with that???

I have an idea:
88mm long range support.
An offmap 88 shoots one shell on designated enemy's unit.
Cost 25 mun, cooldown 45 seconds.
Pick up an enemy unit. In 3 seconds time one shell will hit it. This is 88mm shell from typical 88. There is one shell, however sometimes this one shell can save important unit or point.
Note: I don't expect this ability to be doctrinal. Doctrines deserve for something more powerful, nevertheless this ability can be used after purchsing ability in HQ ( like PAnther battlegroup) or one of units can call it in.

cephalos wrote:
I have an idea:
88mm long range support.
An offmap 88 shoots one shell on designated enemy's unit.
Cost 25 mun, cooldown 45 seconds.
Pick up an enemy unit. In 3 seconds time one shell will hit it. This is 88mm shell from typical 88. There is one shell, however sometimes this one shell can save important unit or point.
Note: I don't expect this ability to be doctrinal. Doctrines deserve for something more powerful, nevertheless this ability can be used after purchsing ability in HQ ( like PAnther battlegroup) or one of units can call it in.

I like the idea, but it would be strange if the 88 shot through a hill or a building from outside of the map.

Maybe instead a plane that comes down and attack just one unit with a rocket or something. Similar effect as your idea, though.

what if there was an ability to sacrifice manpower for fuel???

Theres a similiar ability in the BK mod , except the trade in is usually munitions for Mp/F , there are some that call for F-Mp and vice versa but I can't remember them all.

You know what....what if there was an ability like this:
For 3500 mp the Ostheer player can call in something called "Last ditch effort", where they call in 2 Tigers,4 Grenadier squads and a HT..........Just throwing something out there

1.A 'Last ditch effort' that costs 3500mp is NOT something you can afford in a tight spot ,hehe.Maybe if you bait them by letting them win and wait a few minutes.
2.- 2 tigers -2k mp
  -4 gren squads-1400 (350? each)
  -1 HT - 250? mp 15 F
total 3650mp + 15 F 3800 mp (nearly a minute to get 15 Fuel in a last ditch spot.)
3. Two Tigers, a wee bit OPOP

AH HAHAHAAHA, yeah man, I figured that xD But I just wanted to throw some retarded idea out there to buzzkill everyone else loool

'last ditch effort ' sounds good but what it gives isn't ha. Maybe have it cost 600 mp to give 2 gren. 1 Pz IV and 2 bikes, in a one time usage setting that requires the user to have less than one quarter of the map's Points(if thats possible)

For Akalonor;

Akalonor wrote:
I just started thinking( not too good of an idea right ;) ) But what if the Ostheer have a foreign unit to match each of there Doctrines, something like

Fast attack

L
3cp-Call-in a quick squad of Finnish Jager Troops*
2cp- Gives all units the ability to sprint*
1cp- Allows Finns to construct sandbags*
R
2cp-Allows Pios(their equal) to construct a shelter that provides camo to garrisoned units(but they can not shoot out of it)*
2cp-Gives Shelter the ability to heal garrisoned units.*
1cp-Gives the shelter increased sight range.*

Creeping Defenses

L
3cp- Call in a Hungarian Support MG ( better defense statistics)*
2cp- Gives the HHMG the suppress ability for no cost*
2cp- Increases the HHMG's Smoke cover.*
R
2cp- Gives you units the ability to disable a sector*
3cp- Temporarily Removes friendly sector FOW.*
2cp- Allows garrisoned units to detect stealthed enemies/objects.

Bloodied Earth

L
3cp- Calls in a Romanian Cavalry man with the ability to ride his steed to the front lines(Dismounts when near enemies, Can't re-mount)*
2cp- Allows the Romanian soldiers to throw grenades*
3cp- The Romanian Forces now fight with Zeal*
R
1cp- Gives Units the ability to throw incindenary grenades*
2cp- Calls down an Off-map Artillery strike*
5cp- The Ostheer Komandant calls for a bombing run(Cost 300Mu, Classic free fall run, 20minutes for Rechrge)*



*-These are only examples of what I think would be good, Don't take my recommendations too seriously its just a concept.

Thank you and Sorry, Didn't find anyplace it really 'Fit'

a "last Ditch effort" would be cool.

What I would do, is make it to where it came after your Hq was destroyed. that way it was a last last ditch effort.

noooo, destroying hq often ends game. Better, IMO would be if player had tier let's say 4 and he lost all his units. Then he calls-in only once "last ditch support", assuming that he has at least 1500mp

What if the "last ditch effort" would give you some random units? Just like the last american inf-doctrine call-in (can't remember the name).

There could also (or instead) be a power so you could call in a battlegroup of random non-German units. like you get some Czech units, some Hungarians, some Romanians, etc. etc.

Or maybe you can get a full battlegroup from a non-German country, but you get the battlegroup from a random country every time you use it.

or maybe no call-in units? just increased production speed?

I was thinking about something crazy to be implemented :P... if ostheer will have medic bunker and after X number of wounded soldiers they give you Y squad... how about medics who get enemy wounded soldiers, to reintegrate as workers, POWs, I don't know what unit would be acting as engineer/pioneer but on some concepts use POWs as it; although i don't know if it's possible...

Was reading something about the colapse of the East Front 1944, which gave me following Idea for Doctrine.

"Feste Plätze" was a Hitler-Order that all citys had to be held, even if they were enclosed, such as to bind enemy troops. Examples were Königsberg, Kurland, Breslau ect.

Would be a good idea for defensive Doctrine of Ostheer.

Possibility:
* Even if you are cut off from base, you can build Bunkers and HQ on cut off territory.
* Bunkers can hold more infantry and are doubble in strength (harder to destroy).
* All Units (Infantry and Tanks) can be entrenched. If trenches take damage, pioneers can repair them under fire.
* Forward bases can look further into enemy territory and produce units.
* Such Units would be badly armed "Volkssturm"

* If feasable  in CoH, destroyed  or damaged Buildings can be repaired by engineers (just like HQ)
* Buildings can be upgraded to strongpoints = harder to destroy and the offer better cover and protection for inf. inside them. Maybe this is possible like making a forward HQ (or combining it with it). Graphics would be with sandbags around basement windows and doors and one MG on each side in the building.
Only with such a Building you can make a territory to "Festen Platz" if it is cut off. You would need  2/3 Amo and 1/3 Fuel.
* If cut off, Units there would fight with extra fanatism and zeal. They would lose this, as soon as territory is conected with base again. They can not leave this cut off territorry except in direction of home base to reunite it again. Otherwise people would let themselves get cut off or capture territory cut off from base, so they can get advantages of doctrine.  You can only build such buildings for "Feste Plätze2 if you are conected with territory. and it only is effective if cut off. 
* If conection with homeland (Base) is restored, Volkssturm Units can be upgraded to normal Infantry Units.
* Pioneer Units would be able to repair destroyed tanks and HQ on territory
* Resources of cut off territory would still be culminated and collected.
* For Territory where there are no buildings available, You can build a big bunker, something like Flak-Tower Type or the Mortar Bunker.), which would make such a terrain to a stronghold. It would then be the forward HQ. Just like Mortar Bunker, it can not be completely destroyed but only rendered useless. If captured and repaired by the enemy, it would lose all function and just be a normal building to take cover.
* engineers can build those Panther-Bunkers.
* All units should be able to camo themselves.
* If possible create a little Flakbunker with the tower of Wirbelwind-Tank of Luftwaffe doctrine. (crew can't be killed by snipers) or Flak/Vierling in a mortar entrenchment?

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comrade2012 wrote:
a "last Ditch effort" would be cool.

What I would do, is make it to where it came after your Hq was destroyed. that way it was a last last ditch effort.

That would be absolutely useless and a waste of time. If your HQ and everything on your base is destroyed, you can imagine what kind of powerfull units are in your territory. Sending in some "last ditch" units is just some cattle for the enemy to slaughter for their game statistics. What could they do, except die? Once Base is destroyed, game over.

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cephalos wrote:
or maybe no call-in units? just increased production speed?

You can already do that with German Officer.
Production Speed should be the same for both sides, maybe Sviets a bit faster with T34.

Last edited May 28, 2010 at 2:57 PM by Reinefarth

Reinefarth wrote:
Was reading something about the colapse of the East Front 1944, which gave me following Idea for Doctrine.

"Feste Plätze" was a Hitler-Order that all citys had to be held, even if they were enclosed, such as to bind enemy troops. Examples were Königsberg, Kurland, Breslau ect.

Would be a good idea for defensive Doctrine of Ostheer.

Possibility:
* Even if you are cut off from base, you can build Bunkers and HQ on cut off territory.
* Bunkers can hold more infantry and are doubble in strength (harder to destroy).
* All Units (Infantry and Tanks) can be entrenched. If trenches take damage, pioneers can repair them under fire.
* Forward bases can look further into enemy territory and produce units.
* Such Units would be badly armed "Volkssturm"

* If feasable  in CoH, destroyed  or damaged Buildings can be repaired by engineers (just like HQ)
* Buildings can be upgraded to strongpoints = harder to destroy and the offer better cover and protection for inf. inside them. Maybe this is possible like making a forward HQ (or combining it with it). Graphics would be with sandbags around basement windows and doors and one MG on each side in the building.
Only with such a Building you can make a territory to "Festen Platz" if it is cut off. You would need  2/3 Amo and 1/3 Fuel.
* If cut off, Units there would fight with extra fanatism and zeal. They would lose this, as soon as territory is conected with base again. They can not leave this cut off territorry except in direction of home base to reunite it again. Otherwise people would let themselves get cut off or capture territory cut off from base, so they can get advantages of doctrine.  You can only build such buildings for "Feste Plätze2 if you are conected with territory. and it only is effective if cut off. 
* If conection with homeland (Base) is restored, Volkssturm Units can be upgraded to normal Infantry Units.
* Pioneer Units would be able to repair destroyed tanks and HQ on territory
* Resources of cut off territory would still be culminated and collected.
* For Territory where there are no buildings available, You can build a big bunker, something like Flak-Tower Type or the Mortar Bunker.), which would make such a terrain to a stronghold. It would then be the forward HQ. Just like Mortar Bunker, it can not be completely destroyed but only rendered useless. If captured and repaired by the enemy, it would lose all function and just be a normal building to take cover.
* engineers can build those Panther-Bunkers.
* All units should be able to camo themselves.
* If possible create a little Flakbunker with the tower of Wirbelwind-Tank of Luftwaffe doctrine. (crew can't be killed by snipers) or Flak/Vierling in a mortar entrenchment?

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comrade2012 wrote:
a "last Ditch effort" would be cool.

What I would do, is make it to where it came after your Hq was destroyed. that way it was a last last ditch effort.

That would be absolutely useless and a waste of time. If your HQ and everything on your base is destroyed, you can imagine what kind of powerfull units are in your territory. Sending in some "last ditch" units is just some cattle for the enemy to slaughter for their game statistics. What could they do, except die? Once Base is destroyed, game over.

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cephalos wrote:
or maybe no call-in units? just increased production speed?

You can already do that with German Officer.
Production Speed should be the same for both sides, maybe Sviets a bit faster with T34.

My idea was to have a last ditch effort as a call in, however the pop cap cost would be reasonably high, so you wouldnt be able to use it if you already had like 2 panthers or so on the field (For exception of a large or massive map).

                              Defensive Group:


 
Artillery support (Left side)

Call in-Unit: Kanone Pioneers- Needed to build all stationary artillery (2 man squad armed with G43s one has radio to call in light artillery- 25 munitions- 5-7 motar shells land marked by smoke- 1 CP 300 MP)

Building Permit(s)-FlaK support! : FlaK 30- One Barreled 20mm cannon- Should fire slower than the FlaK 38 but should cost lower (280 MP 10 FL- Built by Kanone Pioneers) PaK 43 or FlaK 36- Heavy AT guns that should be similar to the Flak 18/36 family (Should have a sandbag emplacement (British style) 380 MP 70 FL) Built by Kanone Pioneers- 4 CP

Call-in unit- 10.5 cm leFH 18/40: Mobile artillery support, move slow if carried by foot but also be towed( 480 MP 12 unit cap 2 CP).

Defensive measures (right side)

Passive–Unit: Veteran support teams- Support teams (HMGs, Motars, FlaK, and AT guns crews) can now see the enemy when they are farther away and use their weapons more accurately at distances (1 CP).

Passive–Player: Smooth Supply lines- Allows for 5 per cent more MP, MU, and FL to be brought in (2 CP).

Active-Player: V2- Call down a V2 rocket on a part of the battlefield, the V2 will burn a large portion of the area that it struck as well  (250 MU 4 CPs).







This Doctrine is similar to the Wehr's Defencive doctrine only this "Group" (Otheer doctrine) has 2 call-in units (defencive has 0) and has more Passive Abilities. 


Credit to Nubrannos for writing his gudie on how to make a good doctrine thread :) 

Please talk about/criticize,
                                  Thank you 







been a week and no responses  ??? ??? ??? ???  :-\

Last edited June 27, 2010 at 5:34 AM by Mr Defence