Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys

Are the Devs even going to listen to this topic, even though 'Yes' is at 48, its their final call.

judging by the polls you would think that Tigers would be buildable.

AGREE with Paciat! Soviet Union can build IS-2 , i like to see buildable Tigers for Ostheer even one Tiger cost 800 manpower , 150 fuel or 180 and 14 or 16 population per Tiger.

NO, NO, NO! The Tiger is MAGIIIIC!!! :o
:D
But, seriously, it would ruin my day to see a Tiger coming out of a factory.
But i'm fine with it being buildable independent of doctrine, as long as it in the end comes from off-map. I also think they should do the same with IS-2, but then again... devs choice.

Akalonor wrote:
Are the Devs even going to listen to this topic, even though 'Yes' is at 48, its their final call.

We read a lot of all this stuff here.
BUT we wont and couldnt answer to all your stuff here.
When devs would answer everything or would comment
the stuff they would have so much to do that they wont
have time to work on their project ;)

So. U guys could discuss here, devs will read here and at the end devs and community will see what will happen out of all this input!!

it would be great to bring back the Tiger Ace in the Ostheer as a doctrine unit ofc.

Toorstain wrote:
NO, NO, NO! The Tiger is MAGIIIIC!!! :o
:D
But, seriously, it would ruin my day to see a Tiger coming out of a factory.

Dont understand the wheres the difference.
Is Tiger I MAGIIIIC becouse you dont need to use fuel and wait untill it gets build?

I would love to wait 2 minutes for a single vet 0 Tiger (Panther is build in 70 seconds).

I was just joking about the MAGIIIIIC-stuff. ;D

What I meant was that heavy tanks, in my opinion, shouldn't be built out of factories because... they are unique.

I don't care what you have pay or what you have to do to get them, but I think heavy tanks should be off-map units.

The heavy tanks is like the tank you just can't buy, it is so huge and epic that it must be called inn (except with russians).

Or am I just crazy ???

Toorstain wrote:
I was just joking about the MAGIIIIIC-stuff. ;D
...
The heavy tanks is like the tank you just can't buy, it is so huge and epic that it must be called inn (except with russians).

Or am I just crazy ???

Just build a huge factory with a Manufacture of Epic nearby.  ;D

Tiger tanks? I want to see Liger tanks!

Then it will be king tigers. Then, sigh, maus.

Then the game will be ruined when the ratte appears.

I souldnt of said that ::)

Paciat wrote:

Toorstain wrote:
NO, NO, NO! The Tiger is MAGIIIIC!!! :o
:D
But, seriously, it would ruin my day to see a Tiger coming out of a factory.

Dont understand the wheres the difference.
Is Tiger I MAGIIIIC becouse you dont need to use fuel and wait untill it gets build?

I would love to wait 2 minutes for a single vet 0 Tiger (Panther is build in 70 seconds).

lol it wouldn't be THAT long if they were built in factories cause noone would wait 2 mins for a tank cause 2 mins in a rts is a LONG time.

just add some other tank to g oagainst is-2 and leave a tiger for call in. :)

Seeme wrote:
Then it will be king tigers. Then, sigh, maus.

Then the game will be ruined when the ratte appears.

I souldnt of said that ::)

You mean this:

A képet a Képfeltöltés.hu tárolja. http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu

;D

sid wrote:
just add some other tank to go against is-2 and leave a tiger for call in. :)

This is right what we thought as well when this idea came up for the first time.
But there are serveral reasons which point out that the tiger would be a very nice fit for the ostheer's tankhall.
-> but just in a very special way.

Instead of making another call-in tiger ability, there could be a doctrinal ability which gives you the ability to build Tigers!

These tigers wouldnt have vet and only 2 would be buildable.

This concept would make the tiger being really a exellent part of the Ostheer - for the reason of originality.




is there.

Agree again Venoxxis, thats good idea.

Venoxxis wrote:
Instead of making another call-in tiger ability, there could be a doctrinal ability which gives you the ability to build Tigers!

These tigers wouldnt have vet and only 2 would be buildable.

This concept would make the tiger being really a exellent part of the Ostheer - for the reason of originality.

What non doctrinal heavy tank will the Ostheer have then?
As Ive said in another topic:

Paciat wrote:
I dont want tanks that are in the game allready.

1 on the field vet0 Tiger I and JagdpanzerIVs or Nashorns + a doctrinal Elephant and maybe a Tiger Ace. Thats what I want.

Last edited June 26, 2010 at 8:59 PM by Paciat

Paciat wrote:
I dont want tanks that are in the game allready.

1 on the field vet0 Tiger I and JagdpanzerIVs or Nashorns + a doctrinal Elephant and maybe a Tiger Ace. Thats what I want.
[/quote]

In large part you'll be relying on light Panzer IIs and medium Panzer IIIs as T34 and AT fodder, with expensive tank destroyers as the only unit capable of doing any real damage to Russian T34s, KV-1s and the like. Using infantry towed AT guns and things like the Panzerfaust aren't being taken into account here simply because the likelyhood of being victorious against the Russian tank horde, while possible, being only armed with think-skinned tank destroyers, Panzer IIs and IIIs, seems so unlikely that it would be a waste to base the Ostheer around such a strategy.

I understand the desire for wanting new units and not just repainted ones. I believe its how the "old units" are implemented that is going to make the difference and thus make the Ostheer unique. As Venoxxis suggested earlier to leave certain heavy tanks or heavy tank destroyers up to a particular doctrine, to be able to build it but have a reasonable limit as to not make that doctrine, or the Ostheer in general, overpowered.

Anyway my point is that if you were to base the Ostheer's tank strategy/structure or however you want to call it, on simply whether or not the unit was in the game previously is far too narrow an approach to a faction. A balance between keeping the old and putting in the new is the most likely way to make the Ostheer an effective army that is not overpowered or underpowered.

2LTAndeh wrote:

Paciat wrote:
I don't want tanks that are in the game allready.

I understand the desire for wanting new units and not just repainted ones. I believe its how the "old units" are implemented that is going to make the difference and thus make the Ostheer unique.

Great... that rings bells. Can anyone say Rise Of Nations? Star Trek? Its just the same thing... over, and over, and over, and...

2LTAndeh wrote:
[...] to make the difference and thus make the Ostheer unique. As Venoxxis suggested earlier to leave certain heavy tanks or heavy tank destroyers up to a particular doctrine, to be able to build it but have a reasonable limit as to not make that doctrine, or the Ostheer in general, overpowered.

Anyway my point is that if you were to base the Ostheer's tank strategy/structure or however you want to call it, on simply whether or not the unit was in the game previously is far too narrow an approach to a faction. A balance between keeping the old and putting in the new is the most likely way to make the Ostheer an effective army that is not overpowered or underpowered.

Very well said. This is what i think as well. "Super Tanks" like the tiger should stay doctrinal only - with a orignial ability. Which could make them buildable. For a usual unit, the tiger has simply too much power in my eyes.

Its right that there is some stuff which should be kept, but only such things like the panther for example. Units which fit still very well - and what is even more important - units which arent replaceable in a german army. Saying: .. they gotta fight the soviets!

Venoxxis wrote:
For a usual unit, the tiger has simply too much power in my eyes.

Usual unit?
800MP 180Fuel 90secs is not a usual price.
SU-85, SU-100 ISU-152 and IS-2 can get dmg bonus vs Tiger armor. Im not saing they need it becouse Ostheer Tiger will be vet 0.
Hope both SU will also get +50HP.

Everyone should remember that PE Panthers cost only 500MP per 1 tank becouse they are vet0. They also have better frontal armor than Tigers! (unless tigers are vet3)

Last edited June 28, 2010 at 8:53 PM by Paciat

i think buildable tiger tank should be, but when doctrinal then with limit of 2 or 3 tanks on the battlefield...to have one tiger tank is some kind boring... :)

More is not always better. Its great when you're the one who has them, but not so fun when you're the one staring down the barrel! Having multiple juggernauts of death and destruction would ruin the game.

I think that Tiger call-in could work, as PE calls panther battlegroup ostheer would have it's tiger gruppen. It's up to devs if there will be one or two tigers.

Paciat wrote:

Venoxxis wrote:
For a usual unit, the tiger has simply too much power in my eyes.

Usual unit?
800MP 180Fuel 90secs is not a usual price.

well its still usually buildable.
To make the tiger rarity at actually was (also taking balance into account)  should be picked in a doctrine.

Making it super expensive is just lame.


A good price for a tiger could than be 700MP 155Fuel and 80 seconds building time.

Venoxxis wrote:

Paciat wrote:

Venoxxis wrote:
For a usual unit, the tiger has simply too much power in my eyes.

Usual unit?
800MP 180Fuel 90secs is not a usual price.

well its still usually buildable.
To make the tiger rarity at actually was (also taking balance into account)  should be picked in a doctrine.

Making it super expensive is just lame.

A good price for a tiger could than be 700MP 155Fuel and 80 seconds building time.

To me doctrinal Tigers are lame.
It would be a 3rd doctrinal Tiger.

There will probaly be an Elephant call-in in a tank doctrine. This would make this doctrine OP compared to other Ostheer doctrines... unless someone wants a 3rd doctrinal 88.

Paciat wrote:To me doctrinal Tigers are lame.
It would be a 3rd doctrinal Tiger.

but tiger and K tiger is different, so it will be 2nd doctrinal classic tiger...

GamblerSK wrote:

Paciat wrote:To me doctrinal Tigers are lame.
It would be a 3rd doctrinal Tiger.

but tiger and K tiger is different, so it will be 2nd doctrinal classic tiger...

right.

and it would also not be a classic doctrinal tiger, since it would just make the tiger buildable - it wouldnt be a classificial call-in.

Last edited June 30, 2010 at 12:22 PM by Venoxxis

Venoxxis wrote:

GamblerSK wrote:

Paciat wrote:To me doctrinal Tigers are lame.
It would be a 3rd doctrinal Tiger.

but tiger and K tiger is different, so it will be 2nd doctrinal classic tiger...

right.

and it would also not be a classic doctrinal tiger, since it would just make the tiger buildable - it would be a classificial call-in.

Who cares about some made up classification.
The real question is:
Will Tiger I be doctrinal like a wehrmacht or will it be an original becouse its non docrinal.

Paciat wrote:
Who cares about some made up classification.
The real question is:
Will Tiger I be doctrinal like a wehrmacht or will it be an original becouse its non docrinal.

Almost everybody does Paciat :P
And there is nothing which makes the tiger original if you pick it right into the usual faction. The only original feature about this idea is the bad balance.

I'd like to point out that if you made the Tiger non-doctrinal for the Ostheer, the only reason left to pick Blitz is stormies. Everything else is either shit or is in another, better doctrine.

TacticalNuke wrote:
More is not always better. Its great when you're the one who has them, but not so fun when you're the one staring down the barrel! Having multiple juggernauts of death and destruction would ruin the game.

keep in mind that a few *Unlimited* IS-2's can take on a tiger .

Venoxxis wrote:
Almost everybody does Paciat :P
And there is nothing which makes the tiger original if you pick it right into the usual faction. The only original feature about this idea is the bad balance.

Theres nothing original about a doctrinal Tiger.
Having doctrinal Tigers but not having any other heavy tanks (unless you want a 3rd Panther witch isnt original) is what I call bad doctrine balance.

Without vet and without ninja PAKs, Ostwinds and Panthers supporting one on the field Tiger will not unballance the game.
2 T-34/85 (160Fuel) or 2 SU-100 (170Fuel) or 2 M-10s (maybe even 1) or a Cromwell and a Firefly (170Fuel) are enough to destroy it.

There could be an economic MP income nerf (like when calling KT or Jagdpanther but not as strong) everytime a Tiger is build.

I think it's alright to have a non-doctrinal tiger for the Ostheer but then the Blitz tiger absolutely MUST be changed into the ace in that case. Otherwise there is simply no good reason to go Blitz. I think the Ostheer T4 tank roster should be made up of panzer 3, panther and tiger. Panzer 3 being quite good against infantry and marginal against tanks, panther being the AT specialist and tiger being the heavy generalist tank.

What if we don't use the panther. That would justify building several Tigers.

A Panzer III early makes them Ostheer good in early game, but when T34s comes out, the Ostheer lose its momentum and must get late game Tigers. (Maybe an upgrade that replaces the option to build Panzer III with Panzer IV (Like the T34/85 upgrade).

But if you can have both Panthers and Tigers non-doctrinal it would be unbalanced. But if you keep the gap that the Panther leaves behind, I think that would justify Tigers.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I think it's alright to have a non-doctrinal tiger for the Ostheer but then the Blitz tiger absolutely MUST be changed into the ace in that case. Otherwise there is simply no good reason to go Blitz. I think the Ostheer T4 tank roster should be made up of panzer 3, panther and tiger. Panzer 3 being quite good against infantry and marginal against tanks, panther being the AT specialist and tiger being the heavy generalist tank.

no reason for blitz? theres not only tiger but stormtroopers stuh also, or those grenades...

How can they build a big tiger like that in a little bunker like that?

GamblerSK wrote:
no reason for blitz? theres not only tiger but stormtroopers stuh also, or those grenades...

Stuh is crap, nades are gimmicky and stormtroopers I have already stated is all that's left. Truly the only reason to go blitz is to get them and nothing else. That's why the old ace should be brought back and put in blitz if the Ostheer's getting tigers.

theres still a reason to pick up a blitz tactic because its a wehr doctrine not ostheer, so different units tanks abilities i mean when you have wehr then you cant build tiger from factory so your only way is to go ostheer (if will have implemented the buildable tiger) but then you will not have wehr units under comand so theres no reason to not pick a blitz when you play wehr cause its wehr not ostheer... ::) hope you know what i mean

I understand what you mean but if you want to use a tiger you may as well go Ostheer and get the full benefit of one of those doctrines. Blitz is already a pretty terrible doctrine with the only attraction coming from stoms and the tiger. Take away the tiger and only storms remain. You may as well go defensive or terror so as to not limit yourself in a competitive game. You would only gain 1 useful ability as blitz but would gain 6 as the other doctrines.

As I said, I'm not against making the Tiger non-doctrinal for the Ostheer but the Blitz tiger must be replaced with the old ace from the pre-OF terror doctrine. Most players would probably prefer this anyway, especially the GR crowd who loved the ace.

but its just your view i prefer wehr doctrines like this:
1. Blitz
2. Terror
3. Defense
and also when you have veted tanks on lvl 3 then its not the same tiger as you should build in factory as vet lvl 0 (dont know what veterancy system will ostheer use)

i can't really see why the Tiger shouldent be included in the ostheer. The Tiger is the most famous tank from ww2 imo. would be a shame to leave it, and not include it into the Ostheers weaponry

im gonna wait and see how it turns out, when the ostheer is revealed. Theres a pretty good mix of ideas for the devs to work with in here so far, keep up.

GamblerSK wrote:
but its just your view i prefer wehr doctrines like this:
1. Blitz
2. Terror
3. Defense
and also when you have veted tanks on lvl 3 then its not the same tiger as you should build in factory as vet lvl 0 (dont know what veterancy system will ostheer use)

Actually it's general consensus that Blitz is the worst of the 3 wehrmacht doctrines, only worth going because stormies are your only stopgap AT before sturm armoury if you go T1-T3 or to abuse assault grenades early on.

Say the Soviets were able to build the exact ranger unit out of their barracks, sure makes infantry doctrine less appealing now doesn't it? And that's with a large amount of other useful powers. I don't see why you would be reluctant to change the tiger with the tiger ace anyway, the ace is much better and Blitz certainly needs the buff. It also needs a way to spend munitions but this is probably beyond the goals of the EF devs.

you'll need mechanized repair units at least...Schwere-Panzer Abteilungen (Heavy Panzer Battalions) never operated without them, since Tigers kept breaking down  ;D

Werwolf wrote:
you'll need mechanized repair units at least...Schwere-Panzer Abteilungen (Heavy Panzer Battalions) never operated without them, since Tigers kept breaking down  ;D

About the schweren Heeres-Panzerabteilung:
There is one more point you forget; Tiger operated always in groups!
My wish for the Ostheer would be solution with min. of 2 Tigers on the battlefield. Okay...this Tiger had to be weaker then the Wehrmacht Tiger, but Ostheer needs this SYMBOL! ( Tiger - designed as T-34 counter ) on the battlefield.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I don't see why you would be reluctant to change the tiger with the tiger ace anyway, the ace is much better and Blitz certainly needs the buff. It also needs a way to spend munitions but this is probably beyond the goals of the EF devs.

Just throw blitz nades with MP40 volks. Works well vs British.
The tank doctrines of OF fractions have no abilities to spend their ammo on. Wehrmacht is the most ammo consuming fraction of them all. Just make MP44/shreck storms.

Does anyone use Werhmacht officers? (mortar strike, non doctrinal propaganda)

Lord wrote:

Werwolf wrote:
you'll need mechanized repair units at least...Schwere-Panzer Abteilungen (Heavy Panzer Battalions) never operated without them, since Tigers kept breaking down  ;D

About the schweren Heeres-Panzerabteilung:
There is one more point you forget; Tiger operated always in groups!
My wish for the Ostheer would be solution with min. of 2 Tigers on the battlefield. Okay...this Tiger had to be weaker then the Wehrmacht Tiger, but Ostheer needs this SYMBOL! ( Tiger - designed as T-34 counter ) on the battlefield.

+1 I would love to see a Tiger group, with 2 or even 3 tigers. It would be costly, but terribly cool!!

Red_Stinger wrote:
+1 I would love to see a Tiger group, with 2 or even 3 tigers. It would be costly, but terribly cool!!

Or a T-34 battlehorde. 6 or even 8 T-34.
It would be costly, but terribly cool!!

yes, i use the officer
he is great
works well when people try to flank you...(force retreat...)
i also like blitz doc cause of stuh(blobkiller) and blitkrieg assault(rapes enemy tanks)

Paciat, you always ruin peoples fun >:(