Thank you USSR (A little about history)

spanishfly:

all now crying about "poor Poland" in 1939, when coward soviets "hit with knife in back", together with germans they finished already discouraged and totally retreating polish army.

But now nobody will remember, WHAT Poland did when Hitler occupied Czech in 1938 - it cut off a territory pieses like a vulture, and did 100% EQUALLY as USSR did in 1939. And Polish have no moral rights to complain.

Of course, now no one polish historyan will remember that, because history is a politic now.

The Irony of Russians claiming US 'Propoganda' against the USSR is so thick i could smear it on toast and sell it.

Poor Poland was a losers. They lose attack on Czechs. They lose diplomatic war and became a target for a German and USSR, they lose real war.
If you really think that Poland was so cute - read some WWI and WWII history books already. USSR attacks them not for fun.

Lol - when did I say that Poland did not make mistakes?

The difference is that Poles did not murdered 6 mil people while Germans and Russian did in Poland. Of course - Poland is to blame if it goes to the case of "Zaolzie", but don't compare the polish ocupation of Zaolzie and Soviet ocupation of Poland.

Roxxell - if you really think that the Soviet Union was so "cute" than I'm not even going to argue with you. You're living in the world full of M&Ms and I'm not going to drag you out of there.

"Only USSR have saw this. Only the USSR fought on their motherland. And that why they are heroes."

And Poles, Ukrainians, Bielarussians, French, Germans etc. fought where? In space? In other dimensions? I know that for some Russians the "motherland" is from Wladivostok to Berlin, but it's not true ;)

"
But now nobody will remember, WHAT Poland did when Hitler occupied Czech in 1938 - it cut off a territory pieses like a vulture, and did 100% EQUALLY as USSR did in 1939. And Polish have no moral rights to complain."

You cannot compare this form the political point of view though. Zaolzie in the International Law was part of Poland (treaty from 1919 or 1921 i think), but it was occupied by Chech Army during the polish war with russians in 1920.

On the other hand - eastern territory of Poland (Kresy) in International Law belonged to Poland (treaty with Russia in 1921) so it makes a difference.

In International Law:

Anexion of Zaolzie was LEGAL (but wrong from the moral point of view)

Attack of Soviets in 1939 was ILLEGAL.

Easy...

"We are talking about 2 different wars. USSR won the Great Patriotic War II. Allies won the WW2."

That was the dumbest argument that I ever seen. So maybe the II World War did not ever exist? Maybe that was just few wars? Aggression of Soviet Russia in 1939 was a participation in the II WW. Agression on japan in 1945 WAS a part of the II WW.

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 12:27 PM by spanishfly

Wtf is happening here? You are discussing about you ever dont understand.
Topic starter tried to say that "soviet people had the most severest situation and played one of main part in this war, but nowadays many people dont know that"
And what are you doing now? You are finding who is good and who is the most bad?
Nobody from the ex-Ussr will tell you that Stalin was good or a hero. A leader, a man of strong will, but not a hero.  The second enemy after the Nazis was the government

Even in ussr was not ever said that Stalin won the war. It is said that soviet people won Great Patriotic War.

творится какаято ересь.

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 2:04 PM by brsk

brsk wrote:
Even in ussr was not ever said that Stalin won the war. It is said that soviet people won Great Patriotic War.

творится какаято ересь.

Yes directly, all veterans say - "We fought for our motherland, for our families - not for Stalin and goverment".

Точно :)

spanishfly
I haven't told you that USSR was so cute.
Yes, Poland actions was LEGAL, and USSR actions was ILLEGAL. Very funny opinion.
This is the real diplomacy. There is no legal or illegal. War is just another way of dipliomacy. Have you heard it?
And you are tell me that I live in the world full of M&M? ^_^

I'm don't tell you that USSR was a World Cutest Country. No, of course it's not. There are a lot of bad things have been made. But they have made a great contribution for a victory.

You are think that WWII and Great Patriotic War is the same?
In Russia we think other way. We have books about WWII. There is about USA, UK etc. And books about GPW - it's about USSR vs. German.

We can find thousands bad things about any country. But is this really needed? We just should respect their contribution to this wars. No matter how big this was.

bsk is absolutely right, though.
И не говорите. Просто некоторые вещи неприятно слышать.

As I wrote on the forum of the Relic about Poland:

QuoteSince the rebirth of Poland after the WWI and until the WWII, Poles dreamed about the Great Poland, what would include Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. If in 1939 the USSR didn't unite western lands of Ukraine and Belarus with eastern lands, it still would be a part of Poland. Lands of "Eastern Poland", as it is known in the West, don't return to Poland, because it is not Polish lands.
I do not want to hear about "poor Poles".

QuoteDo the Polish–Ukrainian War (1918-1919) and the Polish–Soviet War (1919-1921) say you nothing? So called "Eastern Poland" was concurred lands of the (Western) UNR and should become a part of UkrSSR after falling of the all UNR.
Do you know have many wars was between Poles and Ruthenian nations?
The intervention in the Kiev of 1015—1019
The Battle of Zawichost (1205)
The Galicia–Volhynia Wars (1340–1392)
The Lithuanian Civil War of 1389–1392
The Lithuanian Civil War of 1432–1438
Cossack rebellions and wars of 1591—1593, 1594—1596, 1625, 1630, 1637, 1638, 1648 — 1657, 1655 — 1658, 1654 — 1667, 1666 — 1671, 1672 — 1676, 1702 — 1704, 1734, 1750, 1768, 1768;
The Polish–Ukrainian War (1918-1919) was the last. And also was many Russo-Polish Wars.

Poland grew and absorbed the neighbours: the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, lands of Ruthenian principalities. These Ruthenian lands all time rebelled and tried to be free, until they became free and founded a state what called as "the Hetmanate". Do not forget that Poland tried to capture even the Duchy of Moscow.
Ruthenians demanded autonomy in Rzeczpospolita, but did not receive it. So do not tell me now about the Commonwealth of nations. Belarusians were lucky to be part of the liberal Lithuanian autonomy in the Commonwealth and they were not harassed, but the Ukrainian lands, which became part of Poland, were Catholicized and polonized. How was created the Greek-Catholic Church? It was a compromise between the Orthodox faith and the pressure of the Catholics.
Ukraine had disappeared from the map, when the Ruthenian principalities, especially Galicia, which the Poles consider as their own, were conquered. Ukraine had disappeared from the map when Hetmanate was broken on the right-bank part and left-bank part, and then absorbed by the Empire Russia, Ukraine had disappeared from the map, when Poland invaded in our lands in the last war between our nations. And only in the USSR, Ukraine saved some sovereignty and was and still is a founder-member of the UN.

You say these lands were not conquered? Who did ask Ukrainians, when Lithuanians created an union with Poles? Why the UPA fought against the friends-Poles before WWII? If a country is big, must it forget its historical ethnic lands and give this lands to neighbours? Ukraine is big, but it has never been an empire, like Russia or Poland. And Poland still have not polish East Prussia. Empires are always breaking down and their inhabitants are always complaining that they lost "their" territories.

Since ancient times, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine already have their own "Commonwealth", as they were born from one Rus (Ruthenia).

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a "very" liberal country, especially in the Polish part... As a result, most of Ruthenian Orthodox nobility went to the Zaporozhian Host and became commanders of cossacks. Many hetmans were Ruthenian nobles. And there "wasn't" a sectarian strife. Yes, there was colonization/Polonization. In the end, the Poles lived in cities, while native nations lived in villages.

And so on.

P.S. After WWI on the map of the world were many new and not so new states, which have militaristic leader who dreamed about glory for his country and about the Great [write his country]: Piłsudski, Mannerheim, Mussolini, Hitler, Atatürk... and other militarists. Some of them were fanatics and had the bad end Some not. The liberation of Western Belarus and Ukraine finally killed the imperialist dreams of this country and unite the nations. Nothing to complain about it.

QuoteLet's forget about the commiphobia now.
My view is this: in 1939 was a natural rematch of the USSR and the Red Army liberated the Ruthenian lands from Polish rule. Do not forget that the OUN/UPA fought against Poland in Ukrainian lands before the war. So Poles can be regarded as occupiers in the "Eastern Poland".

I hope you can read in Russian:
11 ноября 1918 независимость Польши восстановлена в результате распада Российской и Австро-Венгерской империй.

В 1919 разгорается Советско-польская война, которая идёт с переменным успехом. В начале поляки захватывают Минск и Киев и продвигаются вглубь Украины и Белоруссии, Красная армия переходит в контрнаступление и доходит до Вислы, но ей не удается взять хорошо укреплённые Львов и Варшаву. Происходит «чудо на Висле» — Красная армия терпит поражение, множество солдат попадает в плен к полякам, где в плену намеренно уничтожается по различным оценкам до 40 тысяч красноармейцев. Война фактически проигрывается Советской Россией, и по Рижскому мирному договору 1921 года западная часть украинских и белорусских земель отходит к Польше. В октябре 1920 г. польские войска захватывают часть Литвы с городом Вильно. В 1926 в Польше установлен националистический санационный режим во главе с Юзефом Пилсудским.

4 ноября 1935 Польша и Германия подписывают Соглашение об экономическом сотрудничестве. Для подавления «диссидентов» во второй Речи Посполитой по инициативе министра внутренних дел при непосредственном консультировании немецких «специалистов» была создана сеть концлагерей. Эта сеть является примером типичного польско-нацистского сотрудничества. Один из первых таких лагерей был построен 12 июля в пяти километрах от городка Берёза-Картузская (нынешняя Брестская область ) как точная копия нацистского концлагеря Ориенбург: пять защитных рядов изгороди из колючей проволоки, широкий ров с водой, затем проволочная изгородь под высоковольтным напряжением, по углам ограды (высотой около 7 м ) сторожевые вышки с пулемётами, охраны с немецкими овчарками. Непосредственно за организацию лагеря отвечал польский воевода Костик Бернацкий.

В 1938 Польша отобрала у Чехословакии Тешинскую область.

21 марта 1939 Германия требует от Польши передать ей вольный город Данциг, вступить в Антикоминтерновский пакт и открыть для неё «польский коридор» (создан после Первой мировой войны для обеспечения выхода Польши к Балтийскому морю ). Польша отвергает все требования Германии.

So in some ways, the war formally was caused by Poland itself. In fact, of course, the war would be, even if Poland fulfilled the requirements of Germany.
But now I have focused on conquests of Poland


I think in Poland under a rule of Nazis was worse than under a rule of Socialists. Besides, Stalin died in 1953 ... Soviet regime was "softer" after that.
What would happen to Poland, if it is not "liberated" by the Red Army?

roxxell wrote:Even Churchill says: "If German will begin to win, we will start to help USSR. If USSR will begin to win - we will help to German"

Yes, I´m sure Churchill really looked forward to getting friendly with the Germans while they bombed London.

QuoteChildrens of USA, or Uk haven't died at their homes. British haven't saw how fascist burn whole villages to the ashes.

I wonder what country you are from to be so ignorant of the Blitz. 

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 7:28 PM by Saavedra

Saavedra wrote:

roxxell wrote:Even Churchill says: "If German will begin to win, we will start to help USSR. If USSR will begin to win - we will help to German"

Yes, I´m sure Churchill really looked forward to getting friendly with the Germans while they bombed London.

QuoteChildrens of USA, or Uk haven't died at their homes. British haven't saw how fascist burn whole villages to the ashes.

I wonder what country you are from to be so ignorant of the Blitz.

Churchill was a greatest diplomat. And he is follows his own targets - for example kill two rabbits by one shot. He was succesfull. We still suffer from this war.
If Churchill wants to stop the war, he can just attack Germans earlier.

You call me ignorant? You really think that I don't know anything about blitzkrieg? So, it's better for you to know, that I am from Russia. And I'm know better, what was going on there. 'Cause I have information not only from books, but from facts that my grandfathers told me. Nobody knows the war better then soldiers, yeah?

UEArtemis - you're quite right. Good post.

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 8:30 PM by roxxell

No not Blitzkrieg  :P so yeah you do seem quite ignorant of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz

Before the Americans came over to take part in Overlord I doubt Britain Launching an attack on Fortress Europe would have been very succesful at all.

Besides Britain was fighting in Africa and Asia right from the beggining of the War. Whilst Stalin and Hitler were busy buying time and making friends.

Cheers

"I hope you can read in Russian"

Nie - nie czytam po rosyjsku i nie widzę powodu, dla którego miałbym znać ten język.

First to roxxell:

Of course war is just another way of diplomacy. I don't see a problem with the fact that USSR attacked Poland. But murdering thousands of war prisoners, civilians just because the system say so - it's not diplomacy.

"You are think that WWII and Great Patriotic War is the same? In Russia we think other way. We have books about WWII. "

Such thing is only stated in russian sources...so I will stick with all the other countries in the world with the opinion that USSR fought in II WW.

And once again - I'm not talking about soldiers of the Soviet Union - I know that they paid for freedom with blood. I have respect for Soviet soldiers - Ukrainians, Russians, Bielarussians, Poles, people of Georgia, Mongolia etc..
I'm only refering to the system of the USSR.

"We can find thousands bad things about any country."

Are British, French, Italian or American famous of their bloody masacres all over the front lines? And if it goes to prisoners of war - even in German POV camps there was more humanity than in the Soviet Union ones.

To UeArtemis:

Am I saying that Poland should recieve it's eastern territory back? No - I'm not. I am aware that on these territories there were mostly Ukrainians, Bielarussians etc.
I am glad that novadays we have free Lithuania, Bielarussia and Ukraine. And once again I'm not talking about the military aspects of our history - I cannot blame Ukraine for it's battle for independence - I realise that those nations may see in Poland the same threat as we saw in Russia.

Maybe Poland deserved to be conquered by Hitler and Stalin. But we didn't deserved all those mass masacres which came after Soviet Union and Germany invaded our country.

AND THE LAST THING - I hope that everyone will agree with this opinion:

Glory for all the heroes of the II World War who sacraficed their lives for the sake of their motherlands. No matter of the nationality or army they fought in.

Rest in peace - for all who died and was murdered during the II World War.

Last edited January 24, 2010 at 9:25 PM by spanishfly

I simply copied my quote. Words about the Russian language skills were not to the people of this forum.

Yes, I can understand Polish, if I read slowly. Slavic languages are very similar. I can understand even Bulgarian.

Spanishfly
Thanks for your opinion. I will read about russian-poland conflict more. Your point of view quite interesting.

Luz -
We cannot figure out now - if british attacks german in europe earlier. So, arguing in that is just a waste of time.
Buying time? Yes, it's wise choice. USSR have no even ammunition. So, there is no other way, in my opinion

CommissarGears wrote:
The Irony of Russians claiming US 'Propoganda' against the USSR is so thick i could smear it on toast and sell it.

Exactly! It's funny as hell. Funny how Russians forget, after the war was dying down and Hitler committed suicide, Stalin accused the Western Allies of harboring Hitler and hiding him away so that he didn't have to face Russia's wrath.

I mean, if that isn't laughable, what is?!

Then later they claimed they had found his body in his bunker and burned it. But Hitler's own guards claim THEY burned it.

lol Clearly this whole thing is US propaganda..... 8) :o ;D

[quote author=leo.civil.uefs Today we are about to play a Game mod created by Germans, Americans, British and other people... thats freedom, and today there is freedom because million of Soviets died in the past fighting for this freedom ,they deserve respect.
[/quote]
Im from Poland - a country occupied by the soviets untill 1989.
Thanks to soviets there was no freedom for Central Europe.

Well, this might be completely off-topic, but a question to that Polish user:

It's interesting that Poland seems to consider itself Central Europe - everywhere else it is considered Eastern Europe, with Germany/Austria/Switzerland being considered the Center - everything West of it is Western Europe, South is Southern, North is Northern and East is Eastern Europe.

I wonder why Poland calls itself Central Europe - is it because of the Stigma attached to being "Eastern European"?

Technically, the centre of Europe is in Ukraine :)

Last edited January 26, 2010 at 11:51 PM by UeArtemis

Wiki says that its pretty much open to debate.

"The understanding of the concept of Central Europe is an ongoing source of controversy[12], though the Visegrád Group constituents are generally included as de facto C.E. countries.[1] The region is usually considered to include:

    *  Austria
    *  Czech Republic
    *  Germany
    *  Hungary
    *  Liechtenstein
    *  Poland
    *  Slovakia
    *  Slovenia
    *  Switzerland"

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe

I guess this depends on a number of factors.

Purely geographically speaking (that is, including the European Russian territories), the Center would be among the axis of Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary.
Politically speaking (that is only including EU countries), Germany would be the dead center of Europe.

Another factor could be ethnicity/ancient tribes: Latin Europe being the West and South, Germanic Europe the Center and North, and Slavic Europe the East.

The Iron Curtain obviously also did its part in classifying Center, East and West quite profoundly.
Germany became the Center, split in two between the Capitalist West and Communist East, and therefore, everything East of it was Eastern (aka Communist) Europe.

This, of course, explains the preference of many former USSR countries to consider themselves Central instead of Eastern - 'Eastern European' has become associated with Soviet Communism, Backwardness and Economic weakness, while 'Central European' is relatively neutral.

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 12:52 AM by Schuultz

so from what i get from this its japan's fault that germany lost the war. If germany didnt have that pact with japan and pearl harbor didnt happen, germany would have beat USSR.

you could also call it Hitlers fault for starting a war and trying to commit genocide?

You could also call it the Ally's fault for defending themselves.

As Von Clausewitz said so nicely 200 years ago:

"A war doesn't start until the defender resists."

No offence, but thats the most pathetic thing i'v ever read.  Its an interesting quote, and an interesting point of view, but the quote applied to World War 2 is just pathetic.

If resisting mass genocide is wrong, i dont want to be right.

The Soviets didn't fight against 3 Super powers supported by 50 other countries...

USSR could win because they were supported by USA and the other nations, 3. Reich couldnt use their full power against USSR. Stalin hadnt even enough boots for his soldiers.

At the beginning of the war the USA supplied the Russians with THOUSANDS of tanks, trucks, jeeps, planes, trains, boots, weapons and food!... It were the american half-trucks that mobilized soviet forces. without them russian soldiers would have walked by foot. Russians used horses to drag artilleries because they had no own trucks... Who designed the T34's suspension system? The American Walter Christie.

The forces of The UK took out the Cream of the Luftwaffe during 1940, defeated the Afrika Corps while the US was "getting ready" and in the Western European Theatre made sure of Victory so the US could take the Glory! the R.A.F. was pivotal in the defeat of Nazi Germany...
And again, America was England's life line against Nazi Germany and sent tons and tons and tons of, "guns and butter', to England, with thousands of American Merchant Marine sailors....

When you command unlimited suplies of men and material , and outnumber ur enemy 4,5,10 :1 ..its extremelly hard to lose , specially in that stage of the war. the Germans fought with what they had , they faced HUGE logistical and suply problems .... the Soviets had plenty of suplies , plenty of tanks , plenty of everything . German reinforcements were depleted and exhausted , outnumbered and without suplies . They were short on EVERYTHING all throughout the war

The Allies defeating Germany was only a matter of time . If you look at the force/suplly situation you can clearlly see that it was a miracle that the germans got that far as they did .

btw Russia was very well prepeared for WW2. Their armies were larger and their tanks were better (only at the beginning).

Germans wre totally outnumbered + they hadnt enough support, the enemies ALWAYS had supplies by their allies etc etc. USSR couldn't fight the nazis alone thats why the germans are fighting a two fronts the russians in the east usa in the west, if only the germans fighting a east front the nazis would have won.

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 8:26 AM by BlackDahliaMurder

CommissarGears wrote:
you could also call it Hitlers fault for starting a war and trying to commit genocide?

I don't seem to have put fine enough of a point on it, but I was being sarcastic.

While it is technically correct, you obviously can never blame a defender for resisting.

"I wonder why Poland calls itself Central Europe - is it because of the Stigma attached to being "Eastern European"?"

To be honest - I have no idea...I think that we're quite in centre with Czech, Germany and Slovakia, but who cares. Actually I don't feel any bad feelings about Poland being called an eastern country. The most important thing that Poland lost after the II World War was that "eastern" element of it's culture - which was spread on territories taken by the Soviet Union. Of course I realise that huge part of those territories should belong to Ukrainians and Bialorussians - without Lwow, Grodno and Vilnus (actually Vilnus and territories around it are still rather polish than Lithuanian - if it goes to ethnics of course).

"Im from Poland - a country occupied by the soviets untill 1989.
Thanks to soviets there was no freedom for Central Europe."

Well - not everything was bad during the Soviet occupation.
For the first few years after the end of the II WW we created many good, patriotic movies about the war:

Westerplatte (1967)

Westerplatte (1967) part03 [English Subtitles] Polish war movie

It's part 3 of the movie, presenting the defence of Westerplatte in 1939. If someone wants to see the start o the II WW from the polish point of view -  you can watch that :).The whole movie is on youtube with english subs.

Of course those movies were full of anti German and western allies propaganda...but who cares - at least it was patriotic :) Today we are a free country. But who knows why - there are few as patriotic movies as this one.

If it goes to the II World War - it's natural that every country has an individual point of view about that conflict. For Poles it is mainly tragedy and later soviet ocupation, for Ukraine it's the time of it's fight for independecne, for Soviets it's the Great Patriotic War etc.

The truth is that none of those countries could win the war without the help of others. As well as Germans couldn't fight the war without tons of equipment gained in Czechoslovakia ,Poland and France.

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 1:55 PM by spanishfly

QuoteIm from Poland - a country occupied by the soviets untill 1989.
Thanks to soviets there was no freedom for Central Europe.

Technically, this was not an occupation.

"Technically, this was not an occupation."

He meant Poland under Soviet domination. And technically Soviet Union occupied polish teritorries east of the Curzon Line :) After that free Lithuania, and semi democratic Ukraine and Bialorussia were created.

As I said returning those territories to Ukraine and Bielarussia was the right thing to do (not counting Lwów and Grodno in 1945), but the biggest mistake, was that polish government did not fight for territories around Vilnus after 1989 - where still there are mostly Poles

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 3:29 PM by spanishfly

Technically, Republic of Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania existed before 1991. Moreover, they are ones of the founders of the UN. And calling someone's country semi-democratic is an insult.

Areas that are located east of the line were "incorporated" in these republics, and not occupied. Examples of occupation: Northern France, Poland during World War II. And do not confuse puppet governments and territories under the direct control of the conquerors.

Vilnius is the capital of Lithuania. It is foolish to claim territory near the capital of the neighboring state. Such lands are an integral part of the country.

Lviv... You can read all on the Internet. It's a long story.

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 3:32 PM by UeArtemis

If it goes to Lviv (Lwów) the case is rather clear - it has beautiful history connected with Poland, it was one of the polish culture centers in the eastern territories - but in 100% it belongs to Ukraine now.

But the status of territories near Vilnus were not as clear in 1990. I'm not saying that NOW Poland should rip off that part out of Lithuania just because in that region, almost 65% of population are Poles. But in 1990 Poland had such a chance - and i think that for our country it would be a smart move.

Well, at least Lithuanians are happy ;p As i said it's always about the point of view ;p

Read about Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia. The fall of this kingdom may be called the first partition of Ukraine.
Lviv was part of many empires, but always was one of the centres of Ukrainian culture and the struggle for independence.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Ukrainians_en.svg - Ukrainian ethnic lands.

I think we seriously deviated from the topic :(

Last edited January 27, 2010 at 4:05 PM by UeArtemis

So we're clear on one thing - Lviv was always polish - ukrainian center of culture.

"I think we seriously deviated from the topic :("

Yea - we did ;p Let us end it there, ok? :) And maybe continue via priv :) Cheers :)

Schuultz wrote:

CommissarGears wrote:
you could also call it Hitlers fault for starting a war and trying to commit genocide?

I don't seem to have put fine enough of a point on it, but I was being sarcastic.

While it is technically correct, you obviously can never blame a defender for resisting.

Ah, i should not have taken you so seriously, i apologize.

Artillerist wrote:Soviet soldiers didnt made shoes from human skin. And didnt murder whole sities to the last one survivor. German "heroes" did that. German wonderfull soldiers found good way to discound ammunition - they tied two little child one to another, laughuing and calling it butter-n-broad, and shoot two little heads with one bullet. Yep, very brave and VERY HUMAN.[/b]

Never seen any German wear shoes from human skin.
What "sities" were murdered to the last survivor?
How many willages were hungered to death when the red revolution came?
Youre too much into russian propaganda.
Nobody knows how many mass graves are there in the Soviet Union. We would know if Stalin lost the war.

Paciat wrote:

Artillerist wrote:Soviet soldiers didnt made shoes from human skin. And didnt murder whole sities to the last one survivor. German "heroes" did that. German wonderfull soldiers found good way to discound ammunition - they tied two little child one to another, laughuing and calling it butter-n-broad, and shoot two little heads with one bullet. Yep, very brave and VERY HUMAN.[/b]

Never seen any German wear shoes from human skin.
What "sities" were murdered to the last survivor?
How many willages were hungered to death when the red revolution came?
Youre too much into russian propaganda.
Nobody knows how many mass graves are there in the Soviet Union. We would know if Stalin lost the war.

"Hunchback only isprivit tomb ..." And now for a couple of other sites and photos:


http://www.warmuseum.kiev.ua/eng/z6.shtml

guldan wrote:

Paciat wrote:

Artillerist wrote:Soviet soldiers didnt made shoes from human skin. And didnt murder whole sities to the last one survivor. German "heroes" did that. German wonderfull soldiers found good way to discound ammunition - they tied two little child one to another, laughuing and calling it butter-n-broad, and shoot two little heads with one bullet. Yep, very brave and VERY HUMAN.[/b]

Never seen any German wear shoes from human skin.
What "sities" were murdered to the last survivor?
How many willages were hungered to death when the red revolution came?
Youre too much into russian propaganda.
Nobody knows how many mass graves are there in the Soviet Union. We would know if Stalin lost the war.

"Hunchback only isprivit tomb ..." And now for a couple of other sites and photos:


http://www.warmuseum.kiev.ua/eng/z6.shtml

Still cant see any Germans wear shoes from human skin or
whole "sities" murdered to the last survivor.
But I know an army that raped everything on their way. The red army. Many of them didnt know what a toilet is.

Red Army in Przyszowice, 27.I.1945, Poland.

Memories of Jan Rzymelka:

"My mother and grandmother escaped deep into tje villiage. Grandfather was too sick to leave their house so he stayed. After the Russians stole everything what could be sold, they decided to burn the house down with my Granfather inside.

Later my friend Franciszek with a white flag went to talk with Russians - they shot him right away."

Memories of Eufemia Swoboda:

"Russians forced me to watch how they execute my grandson and my neighbours. Each of them was on the ground and two Soviet soldiers were standing on their hands. The third one was shooting the victims in the neck."

Russians burned down 70 houses in the village. And killed many survivors who escaped from Auschwitz and decided to hide in Przyszowice.

Later Soviets claimed that they thought that this was a German villiage. But somewhat they didn't heard how the victims were begging for life in polish.

spanishfly wrote:
Russians burned down 70 houses in the village. And killed many survivors who escaped from Auschwitz and decided to hide in Przyszowice.

Later Soviets claimed that they thought that this was a German villiage. But somewhat they didn't heard how the victims were begging for life in polish.

When the Communists and Soviet Russia did this to Polish People, you could imagine what unbelievable crimes Red Army commited in Germany.

@guldan: Is there also at least one room in this museum which honors the resistance against Soviet Regime?

Those, who made things like shoes out of jewish skin were never real Nazis.  :o In fact they were mad scientiest who "took the chance", worked for the Nazis and made the most cruel experiments mankind ever saw.
But don't think that this didn't happen in USSR, too. Germany lost the war and Allies found out what they did and now everybody knows it, so this could (hopefully) never happen again. USSR never "lost" the cold war, so noone dug out what they did.

It's true, the Soviet state was an awful regime. Not only did the psychos in power target the residents of Eastern Europe but they even treated their own people in a horrible way. Kind of sick really, that the heroes of that part of the war, the Soviet soldiers fighting the Germans, fell victim to their own government and were treated so poorly. It's interesting how a group of people can take an idea like communism and warp it into some crazy, genocidal government under the command of a select few.

Schuultz wrote:
And now, let's contrast that to what non-Russian sources say...

There is no a disinterested and objective side. There were the Cold War and the World War II. Everyone benefits lie: the USSR, the West. Read all the sources and compare. The West has reason to distort the subject and lie. Not only the Soviet Union has.

"There is no a disinterested and objective side. There were the Cold War and the World War II. Everyone benefits lie: the USSR, the West. Read all the sources and compare. The West has reason to distort the subject and lie. Not only the Soviet Union has."

Yep - all those women in Poland and Germany just raped themselves. Also those Ukrainian soldiers who are buried in the forest near my house also commited massive suicide. Damn "western" propaganda

For example, in Nazi Germany abortions were banned. After an arrival of our own and allied forces, many German women made abortions. As a reason for doctors was indicated that they were raped. Abortions for raped were free. Contraceptives were not sold in Nazi Germany, were distributed only among Ostarbeiters. Rapists were described as Chinese or Mongols. It seems that many raped girls did not even see Russian soldiers and do not know how they look. Or the Red Army consisted of only Asians. ^_^

It is an info from an western professor and woman - ATINA GROSSMANN

Girls, use condoms then the RedArmyMan does not come to you. :)

My formula is simple: if someone says bad things about self - believe. If someone says bad things about someone else - doubt and check.
So I do not trust western tales about hordes of rapists. If Stalin said no rape, will be no rape. Everyone feared Stalin enough.

Last edited January 31, 2010 at 12:12 PM by UeArtemis

Some time ago you wrote about the "poor Poland" and how Poles are trying to blame everyone for their own problems. Maybe it's true.

But it seems that you're the same if it goes to the Soviet Union. No matter how many examples of crimes we will show you, you always see that as a western propaganda war.

For Russians, and countries close to them the Red Army is a organisation of pure peace, happiness and love. But unfortunately for the most centre-eastern countries - the Red Army is just another aggressor - same as Nazi Germany - and often far more brutal.

The proof lies in the memories of people who remeber those times. If you want to believe that German girls just wanted to get free abortions - so they decided to lie about being raped - ok I don't care.

So I do not trust western tales about hordes rapist. If Stalin said no rape, will be no rape. Everyone feared Stalin enough.

:) And so we're back to the good old times :)

----------------------------------------------------------

Last edited January 31, 2010 at 12:37 PM by spanishfly

Why have you singled out Stalin? Stalin, of course, is a tyrant. And people prefer long life than short sex.

Do not think that I am a fanatic. Yes, we shot the Polish officers, shot own people, but Communists were not idiots. Read carefully the article. Being brutal to German population were not profitable for us and we suppress any cruelty of our soldiers.

If you think that Stalin ordered to silent cruelty, you're mistaken. We are not afraid of notoriety. We did not want to give to Germans cause to fight to the end. We did not want the resistance of the civilian population and a fear of surrender to us. Do not forget, we had to distribute the idea of communism, and angry people would not accept them.

If you want, you can believe feminists, who say that raped in Berlin were not 20 000 or 100 000, but 2 millions. Russians did not fight, and made love. ^_^ Similar stories exist about Russian Cossacks and Hussars in France after Napoleon.

Last edited January 31, 2010 at 2:40 PM by UeArtemis

We're not talking about communists being idiots or not. We're talking about if Europe should be thankful to the USSR. And in my opinion - it should not. Because Soviets did not bring freedom to the eastern Europe - but as you said, they brought a new regime.

Russians did not fight, and made love. ^_^

I'm not talking about Russians - I'm talking about Soviets. If it doesn't make a difference for you - that's bad.

You were laughing about asians in Soviet Army. But the truth is that there were HELL A LOT asians in this army. There were so many eastern nations in the Red Army that probably those "less civilised" people from Mongolia etc. were mainly the ones who were raping women in Poland and Germany.

Last edited January 31, 2010 at 1:29 PM by spanishfly

I personally do not ask for thanks to my great-grandfather, who served in the occupation forces in Germany. Just compare what is better: a life ruled by the Nazis when Nazis make gloves from human skin, or life ruled by the Soviet regime, when the shot is not for national identity, but for real ideals and views of man what he chooses.

I laughed about QUANTITY of Asians in one place and their predominance. This character in minds of German girls was circulated by German propaganda - Eastern Hordes of Russians. It sounds as rapists were only Tajiks, Kazakhs and other Central Asian peoples. And where are Russian, Ukrainians and Belarusians?

And let's really talk about the Soviets, distinguish between Russian and other nations. What is the fault of the Soviet regime? They ordered to rape? No. Do you believe that rapists were Asians, as has been said? Well, then blame to the Asian republics and their people, and Slavs are not guilty. But this is silly.

Last edited January 31, 2010 at 1:54 PM by UeArtemis

Replacing one regime with another is not a freedom. Freedom was brought to the western countries - they could choose their own way.

and where are Russian, Ukrainians and Belarusians?

They were too busy fighting in the Red Army, SS Galizien, UPA, RONA etc. ;) Normal stuff - killing some soldiers, some civilians ;) Burn a villiage or two ;)

Last edited January 31, 2010 at 1:56 PM by spanishfly