Thank you USSR (A little about history)

I was playing Men of War: Red Tide, and I saw the registers of Alexander Zorich...

Looks like we in west know only a little or nothing about WW2... I mean... majority of people are too retarded by Hollywood and American/British propaganda.

Most people dont know much about the participation of USSR in WW2... specially in USA (Americans really think they were the winners of WW2 and defeated Hitler,  ;D)

There is some facts that cannot be denied..

85% of the nazi army was defeated in USSR.

The imense majority of the german army was used to exterminate USSR. (Read Mein Kampf, by Hitler). Hitler was obcecated in destroying USSR and kill every people in.

Im not underestimating the participation of British and Americans (That last fought in 2 front at the same time!) in WW2, you also were Heroes but, lets be honest, WW2 was 70% about HItler x Stalin.

America was waching two of his enemies destroying each other.

All that shit about D day... the war was already over in D day, Stalingrad was before D day, Kursk was before D day...

D day has only one objective, prevent the soviets from advancing in europe until Portugal, D day was the first day of cold war.

Ok, thats too much to be discussed and I bet there is a lot of opinios around.

One thing is true, the Soviets Defeated Hitler, I say Soviets and not only Russians because there is a lot of other folks who did a big sacrifice in WW2 (25 million people dead in all USSR)

Lets also not forget the Chinese exterminaiton by the Japaneses (16 million death).

Its a pity that there is all that propaganda trying to dirty the image of the Russian leaders and people.

Today we are about to play a Game mod created by Germans, Americans, British and other people... thats freedom, and today there is freedom because million of Soviets died in the past fighting for this freedom ,they deserve respect.

Last edited January 17, 2010 at 9:13 PM by WartyX

A lot of what you say is true, however I'm not sure what propaganda you are talking about that dirtys the image of Russian people?

The leaders yes, but then again the Communist regime in the USSR wasn't exactly a shining beacon of humanity. Not the majority of peoples fault, just the bastards who ruled it.

Yes, there is a lot of bad things about communist regimes and all... but there is even more lies about it... Just watch ENEMY AT THE GATES.

Or Rambo 3, or 1 million movies made in USA about the "TERRIBLE Leaders of USSR"... all bullshit.

Stalin is the third more admirated man in Russia (the first one is Putin and the second I dont remember) so... the russians are idiots for admiring he?

Im not trying to start any discussion.

Just thanks, Thank you USSR.

Last edited January 17, 2010 at 3:41 AM by leo.civil.uefs

the USSR won those battles because Hitler pulled something like 400,000 of his men. which were mainly in Russia to the western front to watch the Atlantic for the UK and the US.

the USSR could not have won the war by themselves.

the United States could not have won the war by themselves

the United Kingdoms could not have won the war by themselves.

i will not thank the USSR, but i will thank the Russian soldiers and conscripts who fought against the third reich.

And honostly, the idea that the west believes they won the war because of movies is sort of an absurd idea.  If people dont care enough to read up and find the truth about history, let them stay in their ignorance or educate them, but dont rope all those idiots with the people who actually care to know the truth.

There was a lack of quality officers in the USSR bc of the officer purge that stalin so that is less hollywood than you suggest not really propaganda more of stalins fault though its true that (im poor with names so i cannot quote off the top of my head who) there were some very talented officers in command they were spread rather thin and subject to stalins paranoia.

The soviets did do alot of the fighting and deserve plenty of credit in history for their role in ww2 but this post sounds more like you wish to rant about stupid americans than really educate anyone. I can tell you personally that in the stupid US schools they do teach that russia fought and we learn about the numbers killed as well. A better statement about a majority of americans is that they dont give a shit about who did what or why. Most people take more of an interest in information that can be applied. Obviously i take a bit of an interest in it so your generalization of americans is rather offensive as well as ignorant.

Im sure the lack of focus on the USSRs role is most likely an after affect of the cold war in some cases. I'll respect any vet but im not going to pay homage to the dead of a whole country not my own bc they im sure wouldnt

A. care about some guy from another country saying thanks.
B. Have fought for me in any way.
C. For all i really care america could have let the war go on without it. Your country could have lost and we would still have freedom.

While I in no way support the statement "The Americans won the war" - I've got to say, the Russians were only essential in the war in Europe, without American help the war in the Pacific would have gone much differently.

Thank you USSR for bringing the light of freedom to the easter Europe! Thanks for getting rid of nazis from our countries! Thank you uncle Stalin...

Also...

Thanks for helping Hitler invading Poland in 1939.

Thanks for killing 25 000 polish officers in Katyn, Miednoje, Charkov

KATYN film italiano 12 di 12 - unfortunately italian version

Thanks for murdering our musicians, actors, writers and many other in Gulags.

Thanks for the 7 milions deaths of hunger in Ukraine in 1932 - 1933.

Thanks for arresting and killing soldiers of polish Home Army, who helped you to defeat Nazis in Lwow, Vilnius, Warsaw.

Thanks for not aiding polish army during the Warsaw Uprising

Thanks for the years of repressions during the communism in Poland.

Thanks for killing hundreds of polish officers and heroes of the II WW, after you brought us freedom from nazis - 1945 - 1960
----------------------------------------------------------

It's kinda sad when, all we can see in video games are the battles of American, British or Soviet armies.

It it sad that nobody remembers that Poles fought on almost all fronts of the II WW. But who cares about:

Polish, Bialorussian,  Poland in 1939 against Germany and the Soviet Union

Polish soldiers who fought in defence of France

Polish soldiers who fought Germans in Norway

Polish soldiers who fought in Tobruk

Polish soldiers who fought in Italy, who remember successful heroic charge of polish soldiers in Monte Cassino

Who remember the no. 303 ("Kościuszko") Polish Fighter Squadron or other 15 squadrons, who fought in defence of Great Britain

Who remember gen. Maczek's tank division in France, he fought from Falaise to Wilhelmshaven.

Who remember polish soldiers who fought alongside with Soviet Union in Lenino, Studzianki, Berlin? Who remember polsih flag at Siegessaule?

I'm not an enemy of russian people. I'm thankfull for their sacrafice during the II World War. Unfortunately for Poland...Soviet Union during II WW was as bad as Nazis.
Also - I don't feel any bad feeling for Russians for that. All nations during their history had some shamefull moments - Poland too...you can ask ukrainians how they felt about us before the II WW.

Last edited January 17, 2010 at 11:11 AM by spanishfly

good point im sure few people remember the fighting in greece and a dozen other obscure fronts or minor countries im not saying they had less of a role just that they tend to be forgotten because they had less to work with.

Wasnt most of those polish soldiers that fought with the soviets pretty much drafted? Just a question bc I remember something to that effect but I dont really know that much about it.

After Nazis invaded Russia, some of the officers who were not killed and many Poles from Gulags created the polish army in USSR.

A group of polish soldiers with gen. Anders went through Iran to the Western Armies. The rest fought on the Eastern front.

There are many fronts of II WW which are forgotten - but interesting. As you said - defence of Greece against Italians and Germans.
Defence of Finland against Soviet Union and many, many more...

You are right about American lack of knowledge about what happened during WW2. American people feed off of Hollywood.

If you go to this page you can see statistics for casualties of WW2. As you can see only 400,000 total American and British dead where 25,000,000 total Soviet Union dead.

So yeah, not many Americans know that or give a crap. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ww2_casualties

leo.civil.uefs wrote:
Yes, there is a lot of bad things about communist regimes and all... but there is even more lies about it... Just watch ENEMY AT THE GATES.

Or Rambo 3, or 1 million movies made in USA about the "TERRIBLE Leaders of USSR"... all bullshit.

Stalin is the third more admirated man in Russia (the first one is Putin and the second I dont remember) so... the russians are idiots for admiring he?

Im not trying to start any discussion.

Just thanks, Thank you USSR.

Just look at what Spanishfly said. If Hitler was voted the 3rd most admired person in German history there would be outrage, especially in Russia. But Stalin, who arguable caused the deaths of more people than Hitler is seen as a Hero of some kind, and he wasn't, just a murderous tyrant. His generals won him the war, but he took the credit.

This isn't meant to offend anyone but I really dont understand the Hitler = Bad, Stalin = Good argument.

But then again I'm not Russian, so clearly don't have the cultural attachment or understand the national significance of certain things that others might.

Cheers

spanishfly wrote:
Thank you USSR for bringing the light of freedom to the easter Europe! Thanks for getting rid of nazis from our countries! Thank you uncle Stalin...

Also...

Thanks for helping Hitler invading Poland in 1939.

Thanks for killing 25 000 polish officers in Katyn, Miednoje, Charkov

KATYN film italiano 12 di 12 - unfortunately italian version

Thanks for murdering our musicians, actors, writers and many other in Gulags.

Thanks for the 7 milions deaths of hunger in Ukraine in 1932 - 1933.

Thanks for arresting and killing soldiers of polish Home Army, who helped you to defeat Nazis in Lwow, Vilnius, Warsaw.

Thanks for not aiding polish army during the Warsaw Uprising

Thanks for the years of repressions during the communism in Poland.

Thanks for killing hundreds of polish officers and heroes of the II WW, after you brought us freedom from nazis - 1945 - 1960
----------------------------------------------------------

It's kinda sad when, all we can see in video games are the battles of American, British or Soviet armies.

It it sad that nobody remembers that Poles fought on almost all fronts of the II WW. But who cares about:

Polish, Bialorussian,  Poland in 1939 against Germany and the Soviet Union

Polish soldiers who fought in defence of France

Polish soldiers who fought Germans in Norway

Polish soldiers who fought in Tobruk

Polish soldiers who fought in Italy, who remember successful heroic charge of polish soldiers in Monte Cassino

Who remember the no. 303 ("Kościuszko") Polish Fighter Squadron or other 15 squadrons, who fought in defence of Great Britain

Who remember gen. Maczek's tank division in France, he fought from Falaise to Wilhelmshaven.

Who remember polish soldiers who fought alongside with Soviet Union in Lenino, Studzianki, Berlin? Who remember polsih flag at Siegessaule?

I'm not an enemy of russian people. I'm thankfull for their sacrafice during the II World War. Unfortunately for Poland...Soviet Union during II WW was as bad as Nazis.
Also - I don't feel any bad feeling for Russians for that. All nations during their history had some shamefull moments - Poland too...you can ask ukrainians how they felt about us before the II WW.

Thats true.
Seems like every country have a % of participation in WW2 and the great ones hide the small ones in his shadows.

Poland suffered a lot because was in the middle of the two potencies.

Last edited January 17, 2010 at 2:21 PM by leo.civil.uefs

luz777 wrote:
This isn't meant to offend anyone but I really dont understand the Hitler = Bad, Stalin = Good argument.

That's simply because history is written by the winners.

Looks like the americans are always trying to defend theyselves against offenses. Im not here to offend anyone. I like america and i like his participation in WW2. Except the atomic bomb, pherhaps...

I dont inted to say, Stalin was good. Just as a great leader, not as a great human.

Anyway, its like i said, there is a lot of lies about he.

Hitler killed 25 million people and Stalin more than this? Who the hell stayed in USSR after this two mass murdering?

25 + 25 (or more) = 50

50 million people?

Some russian here can aswer that for us?

leo.civil.uefs wrote:
Hitler killed 25 million people and Stalin more than this? Who the hell stayed in USSR after this two mass murdering?

Sorry, but I doubt that Hitler killed 25 million people in the Soviet Union. The total loss was 23,954,000.
About 10 million soldiers, thus the rest were civilians.
That includes of course maybe over 10 million who died because of Stalin.

Also, the total population of the USSR in these times was 168,500,000

I myself from the Ukraine. And read the raving, about the hunger of an alien to me a shame! And if someone does not like Stalin, it is his personal opinion (even if he keeps with him)!
And about the repressions it was the power in our countries and do not you discuss it! And to compare the USSR with the Nazis is to be schizophrenia, I ask the moderators to close these threads that would not translate the forum su framework of the political game!

Im from Ireland , so neutrality during the war means I have a non biased outlook , except for the fact that I dont like the british.
In my opinion , Stalin was a mass murderer and no better than hitler.
In this day and age you might think the purges, or death marches etc , "IT COULD NEVER HAPPEN NOW". Well the fact that russian people voted stalin the 3rd most admired man... it just shows how far russia has come from those days.
The misery that was spread by stalin and the communist regime for half a century cannot be brushed under the carpet , yes this is ww2 but what about the millions of people opressed , afraid to speak out , murdered by secret police for the next 40 years after?
Someone said earlier, are the russian people stupid to admire stalin?
I cant judge someone for their beliefs but , to admire the man who orchestrated the murder of your grandfathers , its dispicable.

@Gouldan: Why should the thread be closed? Nobody is flaming each other, just a discussion, if anything is to happen to this thread, maybe move it to the offtopic section.

Why is it so-called Schizophrenia to compare the USSR to the Nazis, look at something called the politcal compass and you'll see how the Extreme Right (Nazis) and Extreme Left (Stalinism) practically converge with each other. The only difference (more or less) is economic policy.

I've not bought into any kind of McCarthyist cold-war propaganda about the USSR and Communism in general. But when your having to bump off people left right and centre, whether thats because of their race, class or just the fact they disagree or pose a threat to you I'd say you've pretty much failed as a politician and leader of a country.

Just my opinion though, I'm sure people will disagree, thats what forums are for though, sharing views  :)

@Batteries: Aww, I'm British, y u no liek mee?  :P

Cheers

Last edited January 17, 2010 at 3:47 PM by luz777

luz777 wrote:

@Batteries: Aww, I'm British, y u no liek mee?  :P

Cheers

Because ye were a bunch of wankers to us for about 800 years , but I think we have put that behind ourselves.  ::)

Aye to be honest I agree with ya.

Bloody Henry VIII...grumble grumble

I really dislike this idea that because your country lost more people in a war your country was somehow more involved in it, or deserve more credit for it.  Its like giving somebody the first place trophy for being last place in a race.  Its not really an acheivment of any sort, and its sort of disrespectul to those who did sacrifice themselves for their cause.

QuoteIn my opinion , Stalin was a mass murderer and no better than hitler.

Not better than Gitle! What kind of expression. luz777 you do not understand for the peoples of the Soviet Union during World War II was, it was part of survival! Because of Hitler's plans for all Slavs must be destroyed! And mass murder is compared with your crusade to the glory of the Lord baby talk!

QuoteIm from Ireland , so neutrality during the war means I have a non biased outlook , except for the fact that I dont like the british.
In my opinion , Stalin was a mass murderer and no better than hitler.

BATTERIES You write that you are not biased - but not impartial (even dead because they were still alive when they were biased). A statement better than Stalin, Hitler, Nazism is, delivered from it! I'm not communists, and not to the hen they will not. But Nazism is evil in its purest form.
In Kiev, the Museum of World are stored the results of Nazism - a glove made of human skin, soap from human bone.

"And mass murder is compared with your crusade to the glory of the Lord baby talk!" I've no idea what your getting at here but I'm not American...or even religious, so...  ::)

Yes, I would argue that I do understand, I know full well the horrors that went on in the USSR during world war two. Just because I'm not from the former soviet union doesn't mean I'm wrong. It was about survival your right, Hitler wanted to wipe out Western Russia and settle Germans there, Lebensraum and all that. But Stalin would probably have moved against Germany if Barbarossa had not happened.

There were atrocities commited by both sides because they were two authoritarian states striving to become superpowers, each one preached the destruction of the other. It was bound to happen. And tragic for the millions of people who happened to be caught between the two.

By saying this were not belittling what happened in Russia and Eastern Europe, you just can't justify the whole of the wrongs of the Soviet Union because of what happened in WWII.

The Revolution and establishment of the USSR could have been a chance to genuinely create a better society, instead it replaced one old order with another just as bad. It was the Bolsheviks who were the first to legitimize the sort of political violence used by many axis nations in the 30's and 40's.

Rant rant rant  :)

Last edited January 17, 2010 at 6:10 PM by luz777

Once again - where is the difference?

Hitler was killing jews - just because they were jewish

Stalin was killing polish officers  -just because they were polish officers
..............................................................................

Both were brutal murderers - and that's the fact

leo.civil.uefs wrote:
Looks like the americans are always trying to defend theyselves against offenses. Im not here to offend anyone. I like america and i like his participation in WW2. Except the atomic bomb, pherhaps...

I dont inted to say, Stalin was good. Just as a great leader, not as a great human.

Anyway, its like i said, there is a lot of lies about he.

Hitler killed 25 million people and Stalin more than this? Who the hell stayed in USSR after this two mass murdering?

25 + 25 (or more) = 50

50 million people?

Some russian here can aswer that for us?

... I don't usually use the quote thing, and I'm busy
talking on the phone, and I haven't finished reading
this whole thread. But I... arrg...

*Spanish Fly* Awesome man :) Couldn't have said it
better :) xcept I'll even add more to it. Stalin BANKERED
Hitler, gave him money, ressources, and places to TRAIN
his tank tactics. Guderian became a god, THERE!.

  Stalin made lots of deals/co joined attacks, etc
Attack on Poland was simultaneous two side affair.
Finland, and (Lituania? forgot name of 3 countries)

- Stalin helped CREATE Hitler, banking on idea Hitler
would soften up Europe, and when he would be busy,
rush in and retake Europe in one fell swoop, saving
Europe from 'his' Hitler, as a hero... xcept not giving any
of it back ;)

Hitler beat him at his own game. Very infuriating to Stalin:)
Churchill couldn't have said it better. 'When we were in
trouble, you sat and did nothing. Now that Hitler is at
YOUR throat, your sit and squeal like piglets wanting to
ward off slaughter'

* Leo :
Looks like the americans are always trying to defend theyselves against offenses ...?
How do you think you started this whole thread?

Hitler killed 25 million people and Stalin more than this? Who the hell stayed in USSR after this two mass murdering?

Actually, Stalin killed more of his own people than Hitler
ever did :)

Stalin a hero? A great leader of men? He was ruthless, yes.
But not a great leader of men. Actually, right as victory
for Soviet Union became clear, he squashed his own
General's powers, before they become too much 'heroes'
(that might threaten his own power). One well known
hero (Zhukov?) quietly went into obscurity about then.

Anyhow, just ranting right now, I'm on the phone and not
making much sense, but @#!(*@$ !!!

I *DO* agree, though, that
1) Soviet Union did help much bringing down Hitler
(Which they helped create in the first place)
(Xcept it blew up in their faces and they screamed for help)
But they could NOT have done it on their own.

American/British D-Day intervention urgency YES was
spurred by Soviet Union starting to win and the resulting
rapid collapse of Nazi Germany - Before Soviet Union got
all of Europe (Remember, Soviet Union did not 'give back'
Territory after 'liberating' it).

I'm fine with Russian people, even German people.
It's their leaders that were power-addicted homicidal 
maniacs.

Stalin : A single death is a tragedy, a million death is
a statistic :)

But, yea, I will give Stalin ONE thing.
He truly is the man of Steel. He kept his cool under
pressure more than any OTHER man would have in the
circumstances, and he was able to turn things around.

I don't know of any other man who could take such
a powerful kick in the balls, and could still stand firm
and then turn things around. Woah.

Someone has been reading too much positive history I think...http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article6937923.ece

QuoteAmerica was waching two of his enemies destroying each other

Perhaps you're forgetting the lend lease aid program that saved the UK and Russia pretty much from the start. The material provided by the US that kept both these countries in the war.
Something the soviets never fully paid back either...You might wanna look this up.

And it wasn't really their war to begin with. this was the the usual European conflict that erupts from time to time be it Napoleon, Hitler or whoever

The Soviets didn't win the war and neither did the Americans. It was 'The Allies', meaning everyone (ok maybe not the french...just kidding!) who fought against the Axis won the war.

As for Stalin/Hitler...2 faces of the same coin. It's just hard for the Russians to accept that in those hard years of bitter war, they were being led by someone who was no better than Hitler in reality and was infact just as responsible for what they went through.
What is that line again?
'He may be a dirty son of a bitch....but he is OUR son of a bitch!'

Last edited January 17, 2010 at 9:59 PM by Zerstörer

I'm just sick of the stupid american comment that is constantly thrown around anymore. I have no problem with someone pointing out how much the eastern front is warped by movies for entertainment or how much the soviets contributed bc the eastern front has always been very interesting to me.

im sure if i came on and posted something about how the west won the war and stupid ruskies just know crap from commie propaganda youd "defend yourself against offences"

And bc i think you might run with it im going to clarify the fact that my example does not mean i think the allies won the war by themselves.

Besides stalin was pretty much gonna attack anyway hitler just started the fight early.

Last edited January 18, 2010 at 1:29 AM by Crowsabove

we all should say that both allys and soviets defeated the nazis but it's a fact that the russians had payed an higer price the war, we also dont have to forget the british forces who incredibly managed to defend not only the UK but also the colonies in africa, asia and also helping countries like greece by the italian invasion.

The germans had absolutely the most incredible army of the period, great generals a huge firepower, an incredible organization and also a modern concept of war. Probably if operation Barbarossa/ Unternehmen Barbarossa didn't took place Europe will surely be diffrent..

like eating Bratwurst, speaking german, not worring about European elections, and live in one country (EU? no..Germania!)  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
but luckly for us Europeans this is Sci-Fi (with all respect for nowadays germany, my favourite country :) )

EasyWinHunt3r wrote:


like eating Bratwurst, speaking german, not worring about European elections, and live in one country (EU? no..Germania!)  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
but luckly for us Europeans this is Sci-Fi

Just give it a couple of years  ;)

I'm kidding of course, but what Zerstoerer said is 100% true. There was no one nation that defeated the Axis (which wasn't one nation, either, even though Germany was dominant).
If it hadn't been for Lend/Lease, neither Britain nor Russia would have been able to defeat Germany.

The United States had never been neutral, though, they had just been observing, trying to make the highest profit without having to actually fight, be it WWI or WWII.

However, if it looked like their favorite (Britain in WWII, France & Britain in WWI) was about to lose they joined.

In WWI they joined when Germany defeated Russia and was about to move hundreds of thousands of troops from the East to the West. This would have been the manpower needed to defeat France and Britain. However, it was at this point that the US chose to join - they had invested Millions (if not Billions) of Dollars into the Triple Entente.
Had they lost, there would have been no way the Entente would have ever been able to pay back those debts, so they joined the war on their side to make sure Germany lost.

In WWII, the same thing happened again: Because British men were off fighting the Axis, it was the Americans (and Canadians) who made a fortune lending money and selling supplies to them for just that money.

Then, in December 1941 Pearl Harbour happened and the US joined the war - interestingly enough exactly during the Battle of Moscow, when it looked as if Germany was about to defeat the Soviet Behemoth.
Had they achieved this, there would have been no way Britain could have continued its war effort, even with US supplies, and it would have had to sue for peace.

In conclusion: While it is very true that it was the Soviets, Poles and British who did most of the fighting, killing and dying in WWII (On the Allied side, that is), it was most definitely the United States who chose which side was going to win or lose.

They just took their time because they wanted to make as much of a profit out of the war as possible...

Gotta love the USA  ;D

Last edited January 18, 2010 at 3:53 AM by Schuultz

I disagree slightly with this.  While i agree that the United States was making an enormous profit selling arms to the European nations during both world wars, i was under the impression the US took an isolationist additude, meaning they would not join the war on eithor side simply because it wasnt a war that had anything to do with Americans.

Then, If i may quote wikipedia seeing as i cant word this very well without sounding mentally ill:

"In January 1917, after the Navy pressured the Kaiser, Germany resumed unrestricted submarine warfare. Britain's secret Royal Navy cryptanalytic group, Room 40, had broken the German diplomatic code. They intercepted a proposal from Berlin (the Zimmermann Telegram) to Mexico to join the war as Germany's ally against the United States, should the U.S. join. The proposal suggested that if the U.S. were to enter the war then Mexico should declare war against the United States and enlist Japan as an ally. This would prevent the United States from joining the Allies and deploying troops to Europe, and would give Germany more time for their unrestricted submarine warfare program to strangle Britain's vital war supplies. In return, the Germans would promise Mexico support in reclaiming Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona.

U.S. declaration of war on Germany

President Wilson before Congress, announcing the break in official relations with Germany on 3 February 1917After the British revealed the telegram to the United States, President Wilson, who had won reelection on his keeping the country out of the war, released the captured telegram as a way of building support for U.S. entry into the war. He had previously claimed neutrality, while calling for the arming of U.S. merchant ships delivering munitions to combatant Britain and quietly supporting the British blockading of German ports and mining of international waters, preventing the shipment of food from America and elsewhere to combatant Germany. After submarines sank seven U.S. merchant ships and the publication of the Zimmerman telegram, Wilson called for war on Germany, which the U.S. Congress declared on 6 April 1917"

And in WW2 we were bombed by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor (Which i can see from almost any hill near my house) which was reason enough to declare war on them, and in turn Germany declared war on the US.  While profiteering and debts 'may' have been incentive for joining the war on the side of the people they were selling the arms to, i believe there were alternative and more prominat reasons closer to home, which threatened the land that they lived for the joining of the war.

This thread is blah IMO. Just epic trash lol


England, US, Russia, Poland, France, the Dutch, etc etc all helped to topple the Axis powers.

Did Hitler need to be stopped? Absolutely no question.

Did Stalin need to be stopped? Absolutely no question.

They were both maniacs. There was a small book written by an Englishmen called "Animal Farm" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm) I suggest people read it. He was an Englishmen who supported communism and participated in the Spanish Civil War when Russia and Germany were testing out all their new toys and killing people in the '30s. Russians tried to assassinate him because even though he was a communist follower, he supported Mikhail Tukhachevsky, Stalin's arch rival. Tukhachevsky was also widely considered the best Russian military mind. Of course Stalin killed him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tukhachevsky). Anyhow, go read the book. It says alot about Totalitarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarism) and shows the evil not only of the system but the actual men like Stalin who ran the government.

Stalin was a scumbag, and since I haven't seen anyone else take a hard line stance on this, I will. Stalin was (only marginally) worse than Hitler. He was evil, a nut job and a murderer, MORE so than Hitler.

People talked about the "propaganda" that the US has against Russia...are you serious? The US (as far as WWII) always kissed Russia's ass. They completely ignored the mass murders of Stalin just to get help against Hitler! We supported Stalin, worked with him, gave him money, supplies, material, information and never once said..."Hey wtf are you doing to your people?!" How is THAT propaganda against Russia?

During the invasion of '41 Russia got so desperate they strapped mines to the back of DOGS and trained them to run under German tanks and explode the tank. I mean...are you serious?!

Russians pillaged and sacked Poland and Finland raping along the way. All the while Stalin was the leader. Don't hand me this BS about he was a great man or times were hard so bad things were done. I'm pretty anti religion, but in the case of men like Stalin and Hitler I almost hope I am wrong and there really is a GOD. Because those two deserve to live an eternal life of pain for the horrors and atrocities they committed.

I salute every single soldier of WWII who made the supreme sacrifice, no matter how big or small, from every country. Not all Germans were Nazis. Not all Russians were Communists. Not all Japanese were Imperialists. But it will be a cold day in hell that I ever condone what the leaders of certain countries did and Russia is right at the heart of the terrible deeds.

I just can't believe people have the nerve to say Stalin was a great man. Also I love how someone mentioned greatest Russians ever and didn't even mention Trotsky or Vladimir Lenin!!! I mean holy cow, Lenin was the epitome of what Russians were supposed to be and now people don't even remember him? Wow....just wow.

Last edited January 18, 2010 at 7:10 AM by Bigpop

Thank you USSR...
when i read this i had to stop for a while, because as a german i have to ask myself: for what?
ok they have "liberated" us from Hitler.
i write "liberated" because in eastern Germany they build up just a new totalitarian regime.
And if somebody tells me now something like "the allies wouldn´t have the war without russia " I tell him: " Look waht happened in WWI". The point is that the USA could build their ships, planes, and tanks faster than the germans could destroy them- russia just throw waves and waves against the german front till it collapsed.

And again i ask my question: for what should I thank USSR?
Shuold I say "thank you" to the russian soldiers for:

-raping 2 Million german woman and girls ( some of them were younger than 6 years)- 240.000 died after the rape
-banishing 12-14 Million Germans from their homes
-bringing german POW´s to Siberian Gulags which were mostly like the German KZ´s (just without the Gas-chambers)

These are the reasons why i´ll never say "Thank you USSR"

orudie wrote:
If you go to this page you can see statistics for casualties of WW2. As you can see only 400,000 total American and British dead where 25,000,000 total Soviet Union dead.

So yeah, not many Americans know that or give a crap. 

You dont know real things man... USSR lost >45.000.000....

2 Der Deutsche: with full respect to germnas (I have many good friends in Germany), I can say:

After all that GERMANS did on Ostfront, GERMAN NATION MUST BE ELEMINATED! Hitler and all his nation and army wanted TOTAL WAR on Ostfront? War to the last man? WAS GOING TO ELEMINATE ALL POLES, BELORUSIANS, UKRAINIANS, RUSSIANS? Okey, HE GOT IT! IN 1945 GERMANY and AUSTRIA MUST BE INFLAMED AND BURNED, MAUREDERING (WITH FULL RIGHTS FOR THIS SACRED REVENGE!!!) ALL POPULATION, INCLUDING YOUNG CHILDREN AND WOMEN AND OLDMEN!!!

BUT WHAT WAS THAT???

THAT DID NOT HAPPENED!!! "Bad SOVIETS" WERE MERCYFULL ENOUGH TO THE MOST UNHUMAN ENEMY, AND LEAVED GERMANS THEIR LIVESTO LIVE.

YES, WE, WHO LOST MORE THAT 45 MILLIONS OF POPULATION, WHOS WONDERFULL AND BEAUTIFULL MOTHERLAND WAS BURNED, RAPED AND WIPED - WE WERE MERCYFULL AND LEFT THEM THEIR LIVES!!!

AND HOW DARE YOU NOW TALKING ABOUT ...RAPING, BANISHING,BRINMGING...??? wHO DIDNT SAW WHAT THAT MEAN!!! ASK PEOPLE FROM BELARUS',WONDERFULL COUNTRY WITH VERY HEARTFULL AND KIND PEOPLE - ABOURT WWII TIME! BELARUS' LOST 1/3 of its population - 3.000.000, burning till last house over 9 000 Belarusian villages killing all it population, deporting some 380,000 people for slave labour, and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians more.
LAST WORD: GERMANY STARTED THAT WAR, MADE APALEPTIC DAMAGE TO HUMANITY, AND NOW SOME BUSTARDS DARE TO SAY SOME THING ABOUT "POOR GERMANS IN 1945"????

Last edited January 18, 2010 at 5:53 PM by Zerstorerflieger

luz777 wrote:
Just look at what Spanishfly said. If Hitler was voted the 3rd most admired person in German history there would be outrage, especially in Russia. But Stalin, who arguable caused the deaths of more people than Hitler is seen as a Hero of some kind, and he wasn't, just a murderous tyrant. His generals won him the war, but he took the credit.

The main difference between them is that Stalin was smart and knew how to make friends. While Hitler went for the "badass massmurderer" image with skulls, death and black uniforms, Stalin was sweetmouthing about solidarity and socialism.

Both were fascists, both were killers, both were bad. But one of them realized that it ain't smart to walk around and talk about how "bad" he is and played it nice instead. That's why Stalin not only killed more people than Hitler, but also got the support from most of the world while doing it!

At the same time, I understand why the Russians admire him. If I was Russian I would place him at the top spot. He killed alot of his own people, sure, but to be honest; would the USSR have been able to stop the Nazi onslaught without a leader like him? He had that "strong fist" that was necessary to unite the Russians against this the greatest threat they had ever faced (saying alot, considering that they suffered under both the Mongols and Napoleon)... He was a necessary evil.

Onto the topic... Yes, when you start to really read about WW2 you realize pretty fast that the most important part of the war was "Hitler vs. Stalin". More people fought and died on the Eastern Front than on all other fronts combined. IIRC, the top 5 bloodiest battles in human history were all fought on the Russian front of WW2. Stalingrad, Leningrad, Kursk and Berlin are just some of the more famous battles, but there are numerous others that we barely know anything about in the west, but make the most ferocious fighting in Western Europe look like afternoon tea.

It was the culmination of a conflict that had defined post-WW1 Europe; that between fascism and communism. The nazis dubbed it a "War of Extermination" - which is a nice way of summing it up.

In the end, it meant the end of traditional European militarism.

This is, imo, a very good documentary about the war in the East; "The War of the Century"
"War of The Century": 1 of 20

Subutai wrote:

luz777 wrote:
Just look at what Spanishfly said. If Hitler was voted the 3rd most admired person in German history there would be outrage, especially in Russia. But Stalin, who arguable caused the deaths of more people than Hitler is seen as a Hero of some kind, and he wasn't, just a murderous tyrant. His generals won him the war, but he took the credit.

The main difference between them is that Stalin was smart and knew how to make friends. While Hitler went for the "badass massmurderer" image with skulls, death and black uniforms, Stalin was sweetmouthing about solidarity and socialism.

Both were fascists, both were killers, both were bad. But one of them realized that it ain't smart to walk around and talk about how "bad" he is and played it nice instead. That's why Stalin not only killed more people than Hitler, but also got the support from most of the world while doing it!

At the same time, I understand why the Russians admire him. If I was Russian I would place him at the top spot. He killed alot of his own people, sure, but to be honest; would the USSR have been able to stop the Nazi onslaught without a leader like him? He had that "strong fist" that was necessary to unite the Russians against this the greatest threat they had ever faced (saying alot, considering that they suffered under both the Mongols and Napoleon)... He was a necessary evil.

Onto the topic... Yes, when you start to really read about WW2 you realize pretty fast that the most important part of the war was "Hitler vs. Stalin". More people fought and died on the Eastern Front than on all other fronts combined. IIRC, the top 5 bloodiest battles in human history were all fought on the Russian front of WW2. Stalingrad, Leningrad, Kursk and Berlin are just some of the more famous battles, but there are numerous others that we barely know anything about in the west, but make the most ferocious fighting in Western Europe look like afternoon tea.

It was the culmination of a conflict that had defined post-WW1 Europe; that between fascism and communism. The nazis dubbed it a "War of Extermination" - which is a nice way of summing it up.

In the end, it meant the end of traditional European militarism.

This is, imo, a very good documentary about the war in the East; "The War of the Century"
"War of The Century": 1 of 20

Looks like a great video, i'm gonna check them out. Thanks for sharing!

For the supporters of Stalin and his actions, you can try to justify what he did and how he did it all you want. You can accuses Germany of all the evils you want (and most of them, rightfully so) but you can NEVER exempt Stalin from the SAME exact evils that Hitler committed.

And as far as Russia "needing" Stalin, to lead the army, no. The man the world (and Germany) respected most and considered Russia's greatest general was Tukhachevsky. He was so feared that Germany went out of it's way to plant fake evidence about him being a spy for them, just because they KNEW Stalin was a crackhead and would instantly react by killing him. And sure enough. He did just that.

Tukhachevsky was a great military mind that was a Field Marshal by age 42! Stalin hated him because during the Russian war with Poland, Stalin directly disobeyed orders from Tukhachevsky and the Russian army was beaten up outside of Warsaw because of it.

Also another note about Stalin. For the first 2 weeks after Germany invaded. He was no where to be found. No one knew where Stalin was. Not even the top ministers could find him to see what he wanted to do about the German invasion. Ya.....he was a GREAT leader of men  :-\

Zerstorerflieger wrote:
Hitler and all his nation and army wanted TOTAL WAR on Ostfront? War to the last man? WAS GOING TO ELEMINATE ALL POLES, BELORUSIANS, UKRAINIANS, RUSSIANS?

Actually, he didn't. He intended to create a de-industrialized agricultural zone all around Germany, which would supply Germany with food and the resources needed for its industry - kinda like the Soviet Union did it with the Ukrainians.
In the meantime, ethnic Germans would focus on industry, soldiering and making babies.
As crass as it might sound, he basically wanted to create a new Sparta, including eugenics and all.

He only called out "Total War" when the Wehrmacht was getting into trouble in the East, and he needed to mobilize the people. Until then, he tried to keep the war as noninvasive on German everyday life as possible.

QuoteTHAT DID NOT HAPPENED!!! "Bad SOVIETS" WERE MERCYFULL ENOUGH TO THE MOST UNHUMAN ENEMY, AND LEAVED GERMANS THEIR LIVESTO LIVE.

You might want to also mention the part where Russians de-industrialized Germany and put the Germans to work in its factories and on its fields to feed the Russia, nevermind the complete expulsion of any Germans living East of the Oder/Neisse (after all ca. 30% of Germans) either into the GDR or Siberia, Kazakhstan, etc, where they would work as slaves to allow for the Soviet Economy to continue working despite Communist mismanagement.

QuoteYES, WE, WHO LOST MORE THAT 45 MILLIONS OF POPULATION, WHOS WONDERFULL AND BEAUTIFULL MOTHERLAND WAS BURNED, RAPED AND WIPED - WE WERE MERCYFULL AND LEFT THEM THEIR LIVES!!!

Not so much at your own discretion. Stalin very much wanted to go Old Testament on Germany's ass, but the Western Allies wouldn't allow it (Moral Superiority and all). And Russia was too weakened to risk a confrontation with them.

PS: Casualty estimates for the Soviet Union gravitate more around 24 Million. (Human lives make for wonderful statistics, don't they?)

QuoteAND HOW DARE YOU NOW TALKING ABOUT ...RAPING, BANISHING,BRINMGING...???

Because when both sides are equally bad, neither has the right to complain about the other.

QuoteLAST WORD: GERMANY STARTED THAT WAR, MADE APALEPTIC DAMAGE TO HUMANITY, AND NOW SOME BUSTARDS DARE TO SAY SOME THING ABOUT "POOR GERMANS IN 1945"????

Look at my previous comment. He was basically arguing that, because the Soviet Union was in no way morally superior, he has no real reason to be grateful towards it as a German.
They didn't bring liberty, they didn't bring safety and they didn't bring justice.
The Eastern Germans basically jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire - nothing to be grateful about, really.

Last edited January 18, 2010 at 6:35 PM by Schuultz

http://gplanost.x-berg.de/gplanost.html

Generalplan Ost
Rechtliche, wirtschaftliche und räumliche Grundlagen des Ostaufbaus
Vorgelegt von SS-Oberführer Professor Dr. XX, Berlin-Dahlem, 28.Mai 1942

When You talk about "Bad Stalin", "equal evil" and other crap - You must "forget" about this:


Soviet soldiers didnt made shoes from human skin. And didnt murder whole sities to the last one survivor. German "heroes" did that. German wonderfull soldiers found good way to discound ammunition - they tied two little child one to another, laughuing and calling it butter-n-broad, and shoot two little heads with one bullet. Yep, very brave and VERY HUMAN.

Last edited January 18, 2010 at 6:54 PM by Zerstorerflieger

Zerstorerflieger your acting like a child. No one is saying that Germany didn't commit war crimes. Everyone knows that. What you and others don't seem to admit or know though is that Russians ALSO did these things.

Subutai posted a video earlier on this page about the Eastern Front and imagine this: Ukranian partisans admitted that Germans killed people by shooting them, but that Russian partisans cut off ears, noses, genitals, and mutilated the bodies of not only German soldiers but also Ukranian CIVILIANS! OMG...people who LIVED through the war seem to disagree with your sentiment that Germans were the worst offenders.

The reality is Russians were doing the same things Germans were doing, just going about it differently. Germans thought they had a sick sense of "European Honor" and simply shot people, Russians used, as quoted in the documentary "Asian tactics" of torture and mutilation. You can prance around all you want and act like a child but if you seriously think Russia had the "Morale High Ground" against Germany, then I want some of the drugs you are on because you are dead wrong.

USA is rich thanks to european wars :/ this is indeed the reality.
But nowadys are the USA who are asking Europeans to help em angainst terrorism, but as long as we are allys we cannot ask you money for our help xD bloody yankees! And i wish Europe could make a little more efforts to help USA

None denied the atrocities commited by the nazis(in particular the ss death squads not the WH)

However you're in denial with regards to the atrocities by Stalin's regime against millions of people even before WW2.

What the nazis did doesn't somehow 'cleanse' the crimes of Stalin's regime even against his own people (not to mention his purges of other minorities including Jews etc). And the murder of thousands of Poles?? They weren't even fighting against the soviets! You can't try to justify Stalin's crimes by simply pointing to the nazi crimes, that's not how it works.

It's a bit of a double standard to call one mass murderer a hero and the other mass murderer an evil crazy maniac don't ya think?

War is a dirty business and it was at it's worse form in the Eastern front. What you need to remember and to realize is that the regimes don't always reflect the actual majority people who where simply fighting for their life.

Accepting what Stalin was isn't throwing dirt on the memory of those russians who gave their life in defense of their country.
Denying Stalin's evil however IS throwing dirt on the millions of his dead victims

Precisely, nobodys saying the Nazis didn't commit atrocities, of course they did. But people also did on Stalins command. If Stalin was so opposed to the Nazis, what do you think the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was all about?

And as for defending oneself, I suppose that was why Poland and Finland were invaded?

Like Zerstorer said, this isn't ignoring and glossing over the immense sacrifices made by the Russian people, just accepting that what the leaders of their country was doing was wrong.

Whats so bad about that?

Zerstörer wrote:
Denying Stalin's evil however IS throwing dirt on the millions of his dead victims

I dont deny Stalins madness. I know about REVENGE actions os soviet soldiers with germans and other axis. And I dont like Stalin personally, as more than 10 of my ansectors died from hunger in 30th...

My two grangrandfathers fought that war.
A.Konstantinov was anti-tank artillery man, fought 41-44 and MiA in Belorussia. Had 12 tanks on score, 2 Tigers include.
F.Bubnov, fought only from summer42 to oct.42, on Don encorclements, and finally in the flame of Stalingrad... Heavy shellshocked during closecombat, luckyly survived and dismissed.

They fought against nazis, and I get crazy when somebody is talking about my grandfathers, liberating my motherland from that f*cking nazis were doing bad thing!

And about cruelty of war - eaurope never suffered so much from "bad soviets" as soviets suffered from "blonde heroes"... Maguar, Croats, Yougoslavian partizans, British - all of them were extremly cruel to both soldiers and sivillians. Not only "bad soviets".

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Bigpop wrote:What you and others don't seem to admit or know though is that Russians ALSO did these things.

Ok, tell me please about Soviet Konzlags. I want to hear. And how many millions (not thouthands, but millions - as nazis did) people were burned alive or died because of gas camera... Telll me... Russian "Arbeit macht frei"...

Our "big brother" from the other side of planet just want to place Russia on the same level with nazis. And You now, pumpheads, are just zombied :) Good buy...

Last edited January 18, 2010 at 9:36 PM by Zerstorerflieger

Zerstorerflieger wrote:


And about cruelty of war - eaurope never suffered so much from "bad soviets" as soviets suffered from "blonde heroes"... Maguar, Croats, Yougoslavian partizans, British - all of them were extremly cruel to both soldiers and sivillians. Not only "bad soviets".

I think everyone is saying that ALL countries had some war crimes in WWII. The US, Germany, Russia, England etc etc. Now you can certainly say some more then others but in the end, war is war and soldiers do things sometimes that they aren't proud of later.

Quote
Ok, tell me please about Soviet Konzlags. I want to hear. And how many millions (not thouthands, but millions - as nazis did) people were burned alive or died because of gas camera... Telll me... Russian "Arbeit macht frei"...

Our "big brother" from the other side of planet just want to place Russia on the same level with nazis. And You now, pumpheads, are just zombied :) Good buy...

I'm not being an ass here at all, but I literally don't understand anything you meant by this. I don't know what you mean about burning people alive, what a gas cameras is. I don't know what you mean by big brother placing you with Nazis and I have NO clue what  pumpheads that are zombied means.  Feel free to clarify, in a NON insulting way, if you wish.

Haha, "Zombied Pumphead"...I like it  ;D

First - we must understand that both - Germany and the Soviet Union are both responsible for the II World War.

Why cannot we place Soviets and Nazis on the same line? What is the difference? A different way of killing people - different ideology? Does killing people with gas (and not by the shot in the back of the head like NKWD) makes Germans a worse murderers?

Should we show you the "Arbeit macht frei" in Soviet Union. Ask all the people who were in russian gulag. Ask them, what is it like to die out of hunger on Siberia and is it better than dying by gas in Auschiwtz.

Or maybe ask civilian prisoners who were tortured to death by NKWD in Wilno or Lwow - is it worse to die being tortured by the SS?

And ask polish officers, lawyers, policeman, artists - if it's better to be imprisoned by Germans, or be killed by Russians?

If it were not for Russian intervention, maybe the II WW would end in Poland. Of course polish army was much weaker in numbers of tanks and planes, but untill 17th september, polish defence was strong enough to hold Germans a lot longer.

What I am trying to say, is that USSR brought Germans to their land by themselves by helping them in 1939. And every Russian, who cannot forgive Germans for what they did in Russia, should think about what the Red Army did later in Poland, Eastern Prussia and Germany. Thousands of german and polish woman were raped, whole towns were set on fire - people were more afraid of Russians than Germans when the front was getting close to their homes.

Also Great Britain and France were partly responsible for the II WW, as they were the main powers in Europe after the I WW. Passive reaction of France and Brits after Hitler invaded Poland was the main reason why Hitler was successful.

Military tragedy of polish army in september 1939, were mainly caused by british and french decision. First they forced polish goverment to stop mobilisation of polish troops in august 1939 - because they believed that such move would piss off Hitler (lol?). Thanks to that the war started when 30-40% of polish troops were in trains heading to the  border.

Then they stated that if the polish defence will be strong enough - they will help us in 2 weeks. Well - they didn't react at all.

And after 5 years of polish tragedy on all fronts of II WW, allied didn't have enough guts to stop spreading communism to Poland. They betrayed friendly to them polish goverment in London.

In conclusion - the main reason of the II WW in Europe was brutal invasion of Germans and Soviets in Poland. Also the passive reaction of France and GB helped Hitler to gain such military power. And Soviets should be placed on the same line as Nazis - because it is not the numbers of deaths what is important, the REASON of murdering is what is really vital - and I cannot see the difference if it goes to that - I really can't.

Last edited January 20, 2010 at 11:55 PM by spanishfly

spanishfly wrote:
First - we must understand that both - Germany and the Soviet Union are both responsible for the II World War.

there u wrong ww2 is started by the french and the brittish they putted all the costs they had from ww1 and they trew em on the krauts (poor krauts) and the brits claimed the rurh area (bigges industreal area of germany) for them selves (CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG) so the germans had no way to pay them back so the ppl where broke and lisened to ppl like hitler an beleved him thats how i got to power and that how ww2 started

Last edited January 21, 2010 at 12:13 PM by bastex

I'm talking about direct reasons - not the historical ones - of course we can say, that there are a lot of factors that influenced politics in 1918 - 1939, mainly stupid, brainless mistakes in the core of the Versailles treaty after the I WW. For example status of Gdansk (Danzig) as a free city and the new borders of Germany after the II WW.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Rzeczpospolita_1939.svg

Who was such an idiot to think, that eventually Poland and Germany wo'nt have a conflict about access to the Eastern Prussia? And imagine, that this treaty was meant to keep peace after the horrible I WW.

We are talking about 2 different wars. USSR won the Great Patriotic War II. Allies won the WW2.
Allies... Even Churchill says: "If German will begin to win, we will start to help USSR. If USSR will begin to win - we will help to German" We have fought two different wars
Childrens of USA, or Uk haven't died at their homes. British haven't saw how fascist burn whole villages to the ashes. USA haven't saw how peoples just dies because there is nothing to eat. Only USSR have saw this. Only the USSR fought on their motherland. And that why they are heroes.

Stalin = Hitler. That was most powerful propaganda ever. Clear your minds from cold war information.
My grandmother have lived in USSR. And when she talks with me - she never complaint about their life. "Life in USSR was great" - she says. And my mother thinks so too. So where is the problem? My relatives and relatives of my friends have never complaint about communism.
That means, that problem in your feeling of socialism. Communism is not just killing and red flag. Think differently. 

Sorry, if I made some mistakes. I'm just learning english.
Thank you for you attention. Have a nice day.

P.S I can give you a link, but it's on russian.
http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000074/st032.shtml
There is lot of intersting things. With links on sources.

Last edited January 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM by roxxell

roxxell, some people had a great time living in Nazi Germany. And I would like to see a source for this Churchill quote you mention.