Some suggestions on Soviet AT infantry

Yes, that is all I am saying, 5 shoots before reload. And sometimes when enemy kill you, you will loss your AT rifle and even reinforce wouldn't get it back, just like sometimes German soldier loss its RPG. You will only have 1 left.

Flanker1949 wrote:
And sometimes when enemy kill you, you will loss your AT rifle and even reinforce wouldn't get it back, just like sometimes German soldier loss its RPG. You will only have 1 left.

But thats no reason to buff TH´s with PTRS.

Pls explain why Tankhunter need that new weapon?

Flanker1949 wrote:
Yes, that is all I am saying, 5 shoots before reload. And sometimes when enemy kill you, you will loss your AT rifle and even reinforce wouldn't get it back, just like sometimes German soldier loss its RPG. You will only have 1 left.

In this case it's your fault. No issue here, rangers don't get their Bazooka back either.

Indeed, if you loose a PTRD or a DP-28 you don't get them back after reinforcing because that was Relic's way ;).

Killar wrote:

Flanker1949 wrote:
And sometimes when enemy kill you, you will loss your AT rifle and even reinforce wouldn't get it back, just like sometimes German soldier loss its RPG. You will only have 1 left.

But thats no reason to buff TH´s with PTRS.

Pls explain why Tankhunter need that new weapon?

I already did earlier

Flanker1949 wrote:

Killar wrote:

Flanker1949 wrote:
And sometimes when enemy kill you, you will loss your AT rifle and even reinforce wouldn't get it back, just like sometimes German soldier loss its RPG. You will only have 1 left.

But thats no reason to buff TH´s with PTRS.

Pls explain why Tankhunter need that new weapon?

I already did earlier

I second Killar, I don't see any valid reasons..

Increasing your shot rate to 30 shot a minute as opposed to 6 will just kill 5X more vehicles.

still has no effect against Tanks and its ability against vehicles is still inferior than troops with RPGs

This is a L2P issue. I'm 100% sure at this point.

I Don't know that the Tank Hunters need a buff but I think it makes sense that they should use the same weapon as the NI's. It has never made sense to me why CoH uses different models for the same weapons. THe same thing goes for EFs Mosin Rifle.  Change the Squads specs not the weapons specs. Lest you want to deal with a PG squad at +3 Off Vet and 2-4 Wher Shreks. Now thats a bit OP.

Last edited June 6, 2012 at 2:39 AM by Otto Halfhand

Primarily for balance sake, but a weapon isn't equal in all hands either. Volks with poor training will be less accurate and worse than a trained grenadier despite using the same K98.

What's a L2P??

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Primarily for balance sake, but a weapon isn't equal in all hands either. Volks with poor training will be less accurate and worse than a trained grenadier despite using the same K98.

I think this is a good thing Dennis. Shouldn't Tank hunters be better able to effectively use PTRDs than the general purpose NI squads?

THs are specialised at fighting tanks but it doesn't mean they're trained. NI are better able to find weak spots on an enemy vehicle, thus they do more damage.

Above all else, this is a game. The units need to be balanced have have good gameplay flow. Units require different stats on their weapons to account for training level and so on. Advanced troops have better weapons, even if it is realistically the same gun. Not to mention that in this case, THs still actually do more damage than NI when they attack from ambush.

Last edited June 6, 2012 at 3:43 PM by GodlikeDennis

GodlikeDennis wrote:
THs are specialised at fighting tanks but it doesn't mean they're trained. NI are better able to find weak spots on an enemy vehicle, thus they do more damage. .... Above all else, this is a game. The units need to be balanced have have good gameplay flow.  Units require different stats on their weapons to account for training level and so on....
Advanced troops have better weapons, even if it is realistically the same gun. Not to mention that in this case, THs still actually do more damage than NI when they attack from ambush.

I am not sure why elite troops that are trained to operate large caliber cannon at ranges beyond their range of sight and are noted for their fighting prowess in all fields of combat (IE a general purose Squad), should be able to do more damage than soldiers. who use a given weapon every day.

NI are OP. They are not core squads. They are given all kinds of buffs to improve their in game performance. They have superior squad stats to begin with and are given super variants of weapons. They are called in at 2CP this isn't balanced against anything but Relics implementation of 2CP call-ins for selected elite squads. I do not suggest that NIs be nerfed except maybe to change the CP cost required to call-in these squads.

I think the DevTeam should switch the order of appearance for Red Tide and Naval infantry for the next patch. NIs are over relied upon in the game right now. That is not balanced from a mod perspective. And I don't think it is good for gameplay. Players should have the opportunity to explore the core squads to see if they are actually balanced. At that point the NIs could be rolled back to the first slot in the CT in the following patch if necessary.

It is arguable that PE Tank Busters are better trained to pick out weak spots in enemy AFVs than generalized Storms, Grens, or NI. They are equiped with a weaker version of the Shrek than the Wher version.

QuoteAdvanced troops have better weapons, even if it is realistically the same gun.

I think we will agree vetted troops are more advanced and have better training. I think that we also agree that furnishing PE tank buster squads with the superior Wher Shrek is OP as well.

Learn 2 play, or "Learn to play".

If NI are changed, then the traditional tactic of using them to stall for tanks will also change :P

Yes that is correct Sharky but the traditional tactic (aka soft counter) to stall tanks is Tank hunters. The traditional counter to tanks from an infantrymen's POV is ATG. I don't think NI need to be changed. I think there should only be one type of PTRD 41 for all soft at counters.

I don't know if you guys would approve this but i suggest that give the NI ability to throw AT Krak grenade after they archive vet1 and excuse me if i use the wrong topic to suggest this. In general, i would suggest that the NIs should some automatic weapons at start like a couple of PPSh-41 and remove the petro bomb ability because they seem unsuitable for an elite squad.

Mr.ious.Q wrote:
I don't know if you guys would approve this but i suggest that give the NI ability to throw AT Krak grenade after they archive vet1 and excuse me if i use the wrong topic to suggest this. In general, i would suggest that the NIs should some automatic weapons at start like a couple of PPSh-41 and remove the petro bomb ability because they seem unsuitable for an elite squad.

Might as well give them AT mines, a frag grenade too  ::)

Every main infantry squad in the game can obtain SMGs except the Naval Squads. You want them to have SMGs too?

I don't know if it violates to the balance of the game but i think it's reasonable for them to use SMGs because realistically SMGs are portable enough for landing assault. Or you can give the squad leader one just to look more 'badass'.

Mr.ious.Q wrote:
Or you can give the squad leader one just to look more 'badass'.

THis seems reasonable enough. Just like Axis infantry have a STG44 that doesnt actually act like a STG44

NI already have a unique SVT which is badass enough (even though it's only like an M1 Garand).

Wait did Otto suggest that a 200 muni ability be available at 2 cp?

Tankbuster wrote:
Wait did Otto suggest that a 200 muni ability be available at 2 cp?

I did indeed make this suggestion. I don't think it would last for more than one patch before it is rolled back. I think the balancers and average players should get the opportunity to explore other avanues of early game Soviet tech development with out relying on 2CP NIs. The Red Tide should be cabable of dealing with the Blitzkrieg Storms threat. Have you tried to use Red Tide in mid or late game? It really screws with the Pop of the Sov faction at that point. 200 muni is pretty cheap granted but early game do you have enough munis to make multiple call-ins? As it stands even if you sacrifice the NKVD troops You Still get a Guard Squad cheap and ready to vet. Heh Heh!

I highly doubt anyone will have 200 muni to use early game. Especially since mines + molotovs are always being used.

And you will get a Strelky squad NOT a Guard squad

Otto wrote:
...
NI are OP. They are not core squads. They are given all kinds of buffs to improve their in game performance. They have superior squad stats to begin with and are given super variants of weapons. They are called in at 2CP this isn't balanced against anything but Relics implementation of 2CP call-ins for selected elite squads. I do not suggest that NIs be nerfed except maybe to change the CP cost required to call-in these squads.

I think the DevTeam should switch the order of appearance for Red Tide and Naval infantry for the next patch. NIs are over relied upon in the game right now. That is not balanced from a mod perspective. And I don't think it is good for gameplay.
...

IMO NI are fine as they are. How comes that a lot guys and balancers played hundreds of competitve 1v1s and never saw a problem with NI while you think NI are OP by judging and arguing from compstomp-perspective?? Actually I never heard someone complaining about NI.

You should play some 1v1 vs USA-player with air-doc. Lets see what you think about acc/dmg/range and pene of RRs...

And why have you ViP-icon? He? Whats this??

Last edited June 7, 2012 at 1:01 PM by donthateme

Since the Red tide will be available at 2 CP, anyone could give me a suggestion on how to use it properly ? Since i find it quite wasteful to spend 200 muni on 3 squads of infantry.

Mr.ious.Q wrote:
Since the Red tide will be available at 2 CP, anyone could give me a suggestion on how to use it properly ? Since i find it quite wasteful to spend 200 muni on 3 squads of infantry.

No one ever said it was definitive it was just suggested :P

It most certainly won't be coming at 2cps. However, we might have a look at the pop thing.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
It most certainly won't be coming at 2cps. However, we might have a look at the pop thing.

The pop thing is the fact why its balanced. You can´t spam it, otherwise you are popcapped. If you are lucky you will use it 2 times in a 1vs1 so you will have 6 squads on the field which gives a huge capping and flanking power but not more. Thats why we can make it cost only 200mun, which its worth it. We don´t need to higher the costs to prevent spamming.

This ability comes very handy if you loose all your concripts and need reinforcements.

Killar wrote:

GodlikeDennis wrote:
It most certainly won't be coming at 2cps. However, we might have a look at the pop thing.

The pop thing is the fact why its balanced. You can´t spam it, otherwise you are popcapped. If you are lucky you will use it 2 times in a 1vs1 so you will have 6 squads on the field which gives a huge capping and flanking power but not more. Thats why we can make it cost only 200mun, which its worth it. We don´t need to higher the costs to prevent spamming.

This ability comes very handy if you loose all your concripts and need reinforcements.

Keyword Might ;)

The pop cost is a little high though. Perhaps removing the pop cost of the commissars (in the same manner as conscripts so squad count is OK) might lower it by 2 and make it slightly more viable.

Or removing the extra Strelky/ guard squad that arrives. (If it switches place with the NI call in). 

You'all raise many valid points.

I like the notion that Dennis has for eliminating or at least reducing the CS pop. I think this would work for 1v1 play if makes 3 guards squads possible. I think it is seldom resource effective to research a Squad upg for less than three squads. Fuel costs being the issue in this case.

The 200 muni cost is what makes this ability balanced as much as pop. If you can afford the 400 muni and 20 pop and wish to do so to obtain six squads: two of which are guard squads you don't have to tech for; why not. There will be one less tank or firebase in your Order of battle. To suggest that 200 muni is to much to pay for 3 squads called in at one time is personal tactical preference. I have found using just one call-in of Red Tide does nasty things to my battle planning during any given game. This of course is my own damn fault. I think ultimately the Guards will be switched out of this call-in. Probably for Strelky. Two Elite Squad call-ins on one side of a Tech tree is one too many.

I have an concern that the Balance Team concentrates too much on balancing 1v1 play to the detriment of all the other modes of play in the mod. I do not wish to be critical here. To me it is important that the success of the EF_Mod that 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 play be balanced for both SP and MP in context of the Mod as a whole. Many times I think the crys of OP are based on the effects of Spamming in 1v1. If 4v4 play is considered and each of 4 players builds 2 Katyushas = 8 Katyushas = SPAM. I don't think anyone would consider 2 uses of a Katyusha untoward in this case. I work as an AI consultant for the Devs. I am working diligently to reduce or eliminate AI SPAMs. I know the Balance Team is doing likewise for MP.

Regarding the suggested 2CP call-in cost for Red Tide. Is this really any different than a 2 CP cost for NIs? I think that infantry call-ins should not be available before a 3CP expenditure of CP. I also believe that Tank call-ins should not be available before 4CP expenditure. (Ignore the 2CP Sturm issue. Relic should have corrected that in the [IP address redacted] patch). Viewing the concept of CP acquisition with dimensionless analysis 2 CPs requires 120 exp points. 3 CPs require 200 exp points and 4 CPs require 280 exp points. (Do not confuse vet exp with CP exps). 2 CP is pretty easy to obtain.

Otto wrote:
I have an concern that the Balance Team concentrates too much on balancing 1v1 play to the detriment of all the other modes of play in the mod. I do not wish to be critical here. To me it is important that the success of the EF_Mod that 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 play be balanced for both SP and MP in context of the Mod as a whole. Many times I think the crys of OP are based on the effects of Spamming in 1v1. If 4v4 play is considered and each of 4 players builds 2 Katyushas = 8 Katyushas = SPAM. I don't think anyone would consider 2 uses of a Katyusha untoward in this case. I work as an AI consultant for the Devs. I am working diligently to reduce or eliminate AI SPAMs. I know the Balance Team is doing likewise for MP.

You are critical. Thats why you have a concern.

1v1 and 2v2 gameplay is the core of coh and thats what we are balancing. What do you mean with other modes in EF?
3v3 and 4v4 match ups will never be balanced in EF. These are not balanced in coh either and there are only 4 factions avaiable.

Afaik there is no concern about spamming in EF. Do you have a concern?

Pls elaborate your point about the detriment to other modes. Maybe i didnt get your point.

Otto wrote:
I think that infantry call-ins should not be available before a 3CP expenditure of CP. I also believe that Tank call-ins should not be available before 4CP expenditure.

Why is that?

Last edited June 8, 2012 at 8:54 PM by Killar

Otto wrote:
Regarding the suggested 2CP call-in cost for Red Tide. Is this really any different than a 2 CP cost for NIs? I think that infantry call-ins should not be available before a 3CP expenditure of CP. I also believe that Tank call-ins should not be available before 4CP expenditure. (Ignore the 2CP Sturm issue. Relic should have corrected that in the [IP address redacted] patch). Viewing the concept of CP acquisition with dimensionless analysis 2 CPs requires 120 exp points. 3 CPs require 200 exp points and 4 CPs require 280 exp points. (Do not confuse vet exp with CP exps). 2 CP is pretty easy to obtain.

They are not the same thing. Lets say you've been cut off and have little to no fuel or muni. You can still purchase NI with MP which is available to everyone but muni and fuel rely on the engagements you've been successful in. And I dont really see whats wrong with a 2 CP call in. Airborne: 375mp and 2 CP, Stormtroopers: 375m and 2CP, NI: 360 MP IIRC and 2 CP. Commando is 3 CP and 560 MP but everything for brits is more and they are very powerful.

Well, if Balancers cannot find something wrong with Navals and there are no replays to backup the claims, there is nothing we can do about it ;). In other words they should be fine. Maybe the only problem would be than they do not require something to purchase their equipment unlike Stormies... and unlike Airborne, Navals are capable of handling infantry and vehicles alike for a 2CP call-in. But that can be fixed by setting requirements on their upgrades, not by moving them as second upgrade.

I'm not sure if swapping Red Tide position with Naval Infantry position is a good change. Red Tide is not going to help you that early unlike Navals, let alone that if the current order makes sense(as Sir Shark told us, let alone that you won't use Red Tide that early).

No one will have 200 munitions in the early game. Then, it's going into upgrades and mines and other stuff.

Hmmm...I think the TH needs a slight buff to pen or slight buff to damage. Hard to use a TH to keep a puma in control. Ik that at closer range the TH gets more pen than the panzershrecks but so what? The puma will kill you with its 20mm cannon.