Some suggestions on Soviet AT infantry

OK, I know that the Soviet AT infantries are meant to be weak and historically they only had AT rifle and has no RPGs. That is not what I am suggesting, so please just bear with me for a sec and hear me out.  ;)

Here are the main features of Soviet AT infantry in game:
1: AT-rifle is weak even the with the upgrade that allow 2 rifles in a team, especially when Panzer IV or above come out.
2: Once you achieved level 2 veterency you can have an extra man in the team.
3: If you lost your AT-rifle, you are going to be in a world of hurt (this is just too much).

So I suggest that once the "Man against tank" have been upgraded and you achieved level 2 veterency and get your extra man, you can upgrade your AT infantry on team bases with a Simonov PTRS 5 rounds semi-automatic anti-tank rifle. This way, the AT-infantry would be still weak against medium to heavy tanks, but it will be so devastating against light armor. And this upgrade will make the Soviet AT infantry so different with other AT-infantry from other factions, especially the Ostheer AT-rifle man only has the bolt action one. And will make things so interesting.

What do you guys think?

TH were never supposed to be a hard counter against any kind of tanks. So you probably deserved it when you still had TH while the first Panzer IV came out.a

At managment will change in the next soviet patch for good.

You should build a ATgun against tanks. In vcoh its the same.

I know it that TH were never supposed to be a hard counter against any kind of tanks and I should have AT gun. I am only suggesting this because I think this will make things more interesting by differenciate Soviet TH more from the rest of AT infantry, especially compare to the Ostheers.  :)  Also give them slightly better ability for slightly better mix infantry tactics while make them still weak against tanks.
Thanks for any considerations, guys.

well, basically what youre saying is that the tank hunters need a buff. i believe the tank hunters balance has been one last issues in this mod, as the balancers and devs have pretty much made it balanced. however, i also believe that tank hunters are workable as they are. they are not meant to be a counter to tanks, but instead a ambush unit, like cloaking them in cover and planting an AT mine, and then when enemy armor hits the mine, they come out and finish the job. the only reason you shouldn't build an AT gun in the game is if you are playing against pe before the p4 hits the field. TH will do great against halftrack and light vehicles.
TL:DR, TH will get a change in the next patch, but that will be the end of changes, probably for the soviets.

Quote i also believe that tank hunters are workable as they are. they are not meant to be a counter to tanks, but instead a ambush unit, like cloaking them in cover

There is still a problem with THs stepping out of cover.

OT sort of :When you change the parameters for getting a squad into cover by a large enough value to make a difference the system starts to oscillate too much. If this means anything to you and you have an idea about correcting it contact JoJo or me about it.

Quote the only reason you shouldn't build an AT gun in the game

is if you have tanks to begin with. The best defence is a good offence in this regard.

Well the whole "to get AT gun or not" thing is debate-able and every side has their different opinion but that's for another topic :P

Actually i would like to have the PTRS on the Navals. Navals should deal more damage to vehicles but they have only the PTRD. We buffed the damage the PTRD does in the current patch, but changing it with the PTRS might be a possibility too.

Well Killar its not a bad idea, but personally I don't think a non-specialized unit should get this type of AT rifle. The Tank Hunters should get an upgrade to PTRS-41 when they get Men Against Tanks, because it would fit with them much better than with the NI, who should keep the PTRD.

Hi, guys. I think some of you may have misunderstood me (sorry for my poor English, it is possible that I misunderstood you guys).

I am not suggestion big change to boost TH to make them have the ability to destroy tanks. I suggest that they can only get this PTRS upgrade once the "Man against Tank" is purchased and only after they achieved level 2 veterency, and you can only upgrade them individually just like you upgrade the recoilless on the para-troopers. And even if they do get the PTRS, they would be still weak against Tanks, so that will not change the gaming taste at all, while in the same time, differentiate themselves more from other AT infantry.

Last edited June 1, 2012 at 2:28 AM by Flanker1949

neosdark wrote:
Well Killar its not a bad idea, but personally I don't think a non-specialized unit should get this type of AT rifle. The Tank Hunters should get an upgrade to PTRS-41 when they get Men Against Tanks, because it would fit with them much better than with the NI, who should keep the PTRD.

+1

neosdark wrote:
Well Killar its not a bad idea, but personally I don't think a non-specialized unit should get this type of AT rifle. The Tank Hunters should get an upgrade to PTRS-41 when they get Men Against Tanks, because it would fit with them much better than with the NI, who should keep the PTRD.

I think this idea can be applied(or something similar related to PTRS), Walki & Rizz might know why I say this :P.

Thanks for the support!! ;D Can't wait to see it in the next patch.  :)

neosdark wrote:
Well Killar its not a bad idea, but personally I don't think a non-specialized unit should get this type of AT rifle. The Tank Hunters should get an upgrade to PTRS-41 when they get Men Against Tanks, because it would fit with them much better than with the NI, who should keep the PTRD.

Do you mean only the model change or an increase in firepower? Navals ARE specialized AT infantry just like Rangers. Why should i call navals in when i get the better TH´s (increased firepower) as basic units?

Last edited June 1, 2012 at 11:15 AM by Killar

Killar wrote:

Do you mean only the model change or an increase in firepower? Navals ARE specialized AT infantry just like Rangers. Why should i call navals in when i get the better TH´s (increased firepower) as basic units?

People will still call Marine because Marine is an all purpose infantry, they have semi-automatic rifle, light machine gun and AT rifle.

I won´t call them in anymore because i get better AT infantry with TH´s :)

Killar wrote:

neosdark wrote:
Well Killar its not a bad idea, but personally I don't think a non-specialized unit should get this type of AT rifle. The Tank Hunters should get an upgrade to PTRS-41 when they get Men Against Tanks, because it would fit with them much better than with the NI, who should keep the PTRD.

Do you mean only the model change or an increase in firepower? Navals ARE specialized AT infantry just like Rangers. Why should i call navals in when i get the better TH´s (increased firepower) as basic units?

Killar wrote:
I won´t call them in anymore because i get better AT infantry with TH´s :)

Tank Hunters should be more effective at AT role than NI. They should get the best available equipment for that role. As Neosdark notes NI are non-specialized infantry.  They are best called-in when a gap exists in your TO&E. If you have a T2 Start (no T1) call them in for infantry. If You are using a Fast Tank start (No T2) call them in as AT counter. If you are using a T1 Ing/Stormovie start they can be used for both AT and AI roles.
There are better uses for your resources than calling-in NI when you have other suitable counters.

I was just thinking, maybe we can even give the Shock Guards the same kind of buff with an AVT-40 assault rifle:  ;)

http://www.royalgunpowdermills.com/armoury.php?mode=2&cat=Fully+Automatic+and+Self+Loading+Rifles+and+Carbines&item=118

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?170286-Questions-about-the-SVT-40-Tokarev-rifle

http://www.tircollection.com/t9718-tokarev-svt-40-avt-40

Killar wrote:

neosdark wrote:
Well Killar its not a bad idea, but personally I don't think a non-specialized unit should get this type of AT rifle. The Tank Hunters should get an upgrade to PTRS-41 when they get Men Against Tanks, because it would fit with them much better than with the NI, who should keep the PTRD.

Do you mean only the model change or an increase in firepower? Navals ARE specialized AT infantry just like Rangers. Why should i call navals in when i get the better TH´s (increased firepower) as basic units?

Not just change model, and not increase in firepower. But increase in firing rate. Dang!! Dang!! Dang!! Dang!! Dang!! 5 rounds!!!  ;)

Flanker1949 wrote:
I was just thinking, maybe we can even give the Shock Guards the same kind of buff with an AVT-40 assault rifle:  ;)

http://www.royalgunpowdermills.com/armoury.php?mode=2&cat=Fully+Automatic+and+Self+Loading+Rifles+and+Carbines&item=118

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?170286-Questions-about-the-SVT-40-Tokarev-rifle

http://www.tircollection.com/t9718-tokarev-svt-40-avt-40

Yeah no, AVT-40 shouldn't be included. It was uncontrollable in full auto so it made more sense to just keep it on semi auto, thus making it an SVT-40 anyway.

And Killar, they (Naval Infantry) cannot be specialized AT infantry since their AT weapons must be bought.

Well that's not strictly true. Airborne and Stormtroopers can both be specialised AT infantry.

Dennis I'm not gonna argue with you because I doubt it will get me anywhere.

neosdark wrote:
Dennis I'm not gonna argue with you because I doubt it will get me anywhere.

LOL that isn't necessarily true but that is generally the outcome :P

Cat wrote:

neosdark wrote:
Dennis I'm not gonna argue with you because I doubt it will get me anywhere.

LOL that isn't necessarily true but that is generally the outcome :P

actually, i think it might be  ;D

Quote
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Well that's not strictly true. Airborne and Stormtroopers can both be specialised AT infantry.

Dennis how would you compare Storms with 2 Shreks to THs with 2 Ptrds in AT role?

No sharks I am not being sarcastic. If you prefer I will be happy to change my request to TH's/2PTRDs to Grenadiers/2 shreks.

If I were being sarcastic I would have suggested  a VG/4shreks or a PG with 2 picked up Wher shreks and +3 off vet.

Otto wrote:
No sharks I am not being sarcastic. If you prefer I will be happy to change my request to TH's/2PTRDs to Grenadiers/2 shreks.

If I were being sarcastic I would have suggested  a VG/4shreks or a PG with 2 picked up Wher shreks and +3 off vet.

Ok sorry for saying that

So if this is the case then what is there to compare b/w dual shrecks and dual PTRD? The shrecks are clearly better. And the Grenadiers are clearly better thenselves. The only advantage to a TH over a Gren/Storm squad would be the AT mine or AT nade which are specifically designed to kill tanks while the Grens/Storms are more orientied to fighting infantry but have a shreck option to help counter armor. Or cost. 150 muni + 300 mp over 280 mp (and w/e Men Against Tanks cost)

Airborne infantry blow at everything else unless they pick up weapons as they travel. You can consider them anti-tank / anti-bunker

Stormtroopers are specialized anti-anythingyouwantthemtobe

Cranialwizard wrote:
Stormtroopers are specialized anti-anythingyouwantthemtobe

loL Im sure Relic will love that title :P

The fact of the matter was I was going to make a similar comparison to Dennis (TH vs. NI).

My problem is that TH are fairly useless at what they should be doing. If they are AT infantry (or AV/AT stopgap) then they should be better at it than a jack of trades unit such as the NI. If NIs are better at it than the TH themselves, then why bother with TH at all. Engies get cheap mines so I can place those. NI have more health, firepower, soldiers per squad, and are useful against infantry even with the PTRD upgrade. Plus they can build sandbags, so I an build my self some nice cover and fight off those ACs or Puma, and if necessary retreat under smoke cover. So what are the pluses of the much loved TH?

Airborne are specialized AT cause like Cranial said, otherwise they are useless. Jack of All Trades troops like NI, Stormies, and perhaps Rangers (notice perhaps) shouldn't be better than units designed to do a certain job, unless said job doesn't exist in the army

I guess it's because they are doctrine specific. They are that certain element of that doctrine; like Flak 88 would be the AT component in some doctrines while Rangers are AT in another. A person (typically but not always) shouldn't commit themselves to a certain doctrine for the sole purpose of getting a unit to spam. TH are kind of lack luster and deal minimal damage to anything above light skinned vehicles (basically tanks).

Other than that idk why :P

Edit: Oh and they cost alot more :P

Last edited June 4, 2012 at 4:25 AM by Sir Sharks Alot

NI do more straight up damage and take more hits but lack the mines and AT nades to harm heavy vehicles properly. NI are much more expensive as well, in initial cost, reinforce, MU cost and upkeep cost. They lack the powerful ambush bonuses that THs have, which actually make THs have better guns than the NI PTRDs.

Neither of them have any real infantry fighting capability when fully AT specialised (NI). Both of them just have very basic rifles. NI have molos which are somewhat effective. They also have smoke. It's a tossup to what you want out of your unit. NI are better in the flat out assault role, where a kiting enemy means you can't take advantage of the TH abilities. However, THs are better on defense, as well as targeting engine damaged vehicles. THs are much more cost effective as well.

That is why I am suggesting this upgrade with PTRS-41  ;)
And if anyone thinks that is still not enough, I would suggest to give them a SN-42  ;)

A semiautomatic rifle with 5 PTRD shots in a row that even benefits from the ambush bonus will be very OP imo.

I know that soviets have currently problems to stop flanking vehicles but this will not be dealt with op TH shots. In the next patch this will be fixed in another better way, where TH have a synergy with that new ability, so stay tuned.

Sounds like a Rapid Fire ability :D

What does this "OP" mean??

Overpowered - too strong

How can that be overpowered?? Even if they use semi-auto it still can't hurt tanks. It is still way weaker than RPGs.

Flanker1949 wrote:
How can that be overpowered?? Even if they use semi-auto it still can't hurt tanks. It is still way weaker than RPGs.

You want to rapidly increase the fire rate of a PTRD by changing it to a PTRS, having 2 per squad.  Imagine you have 2 TH´s which have 4 PTRD that shoot 8 (4 x 2bullets) shots (i pikcked a random fire time). Now you exchange the PTRD with the PTRS and shoot 20 bullets (4 x 5bullets) at the same time as the former PTRD. That this is the most cost effective weapon i don´t have to say :P

Last edited June 4, 2012 at 6:50 PM by Killar

And considering how the PTRD seems to deal considerable dmg to infantry (which I believe should be looked into) they would be spammed once again.

And considering how the PTRD seems to deal considerable dmg to infantry (which I believe should be looked into) they would be spammed once again.

I think you may be confusing the issue Shark. My observations indicate that THs do more damage with their rifles to infantry. After MAT their effectiveness goes done. I don't really know what the AIclass is for THs with one PTRD. When a second Ptrd is added the aiclass against infantry goes up 5. when the 5 man (with a rifle) is added at vet2 another 5 is added to aiclass. against inf. If you think about it aiclass values are given on the battle GUI, bottom center. just select the squad under the three mentioned conditions and check the values.

I have used THs as low grade infantry for a long time. I don't Spam it though. 3-4 squads is the most I ever use. I like your new username

Last edited June 5, 2012 at 12:40 AM by Otto Halfhand

Otto wrote:
I like your new username

TY :)

Otto wrote:
I think you may be confusing the issue Shark. My observations indicate that THs do more damage with their rifles to infantry. After MAT their effectiveness goes done.

Im not sure what MAT means but what I meant was at close range the PTRD shots seem to land more often than they should on infantry (idk if its unintentional when they got a close range buff) and the shots do a good deal of damage (nothing monstrous like a shreck) but still alot of dmg for one shot.

Dont rely on UI anti(x) class values.

Looking at them in corsix, in a word, TH are shit. I wouldn't buy them over an atg. Ever. EVER. I'd rather take NI and use their *very* good SVT40s with a single PTRD. Yes they have a higher reinforcement cost and upkeep, but theyre so much more effective that that argument is null and void.

Volks what are the aiclass values for THs it doesn't make much sense that AI would go up 5 when a 2 Prtd is added. there should be some effect on ALveh and AMveh. at the very least. I use Ths as a soft counter AT  and as low grade infantry. The savings 80mp? I put into my tank budget. 5 NIs vs 5THs is about the mp cost for a T34. Having 2 T34s vs infantry works pretty well and double teaming enemy armor is the right way to go IMO.

Sir wrote:
Im not sure what MAT means

men against tanks.

Killar wrote:

Flanker1949 wrote:
How can that be overpowered?? Even if they use semi-auto it still can't hurt tanks. It is still way weaker than RPGs.

You want to rapidly increase the fire rate of a PTRD by changing it to a PTRS, having 2 per squad.  Imagine you have 2 TH´s which have 4 PTRD that shoot 8 (4 x 2bullets) shots (i pikcked a random fire time). Now you exchange the PTRD with the PTRS and shoot 20 bullets (4 x 5bullets) at the same time as the former PTRD. That this is the most cost effective weapon i don´t have to say :P

I said upgrade 1 member in the TH team only after they have achieved level 2 veterency and only after you purchase the "men against tank" upgrade. And you only upgrade them individually like upgrade recoil-less to the paratroopers.

Making an overpowered weapon extremely costly to get to does not solve the problem.

It would be like saying that at Vet 1 and for 100 more munitions the Sniper can get a SVT-40 and shoot 10 sniper shots at once instead of 1.

TL;DR: This probably won't happen. What you propose is too strong.

I didn't propose that.
And I am not suggesting automatic burst, I am suggesting semi-auto, like US M1 Grand.

Well you want to buff PTRD weapon. Is it too weak? Why is it too weak?

Quote
1: AT-rifle is weak even the with the upgrade that allow 2 rifles in a team, especially when Panzer IV or above come out.
2: Once you achieved level 2 veterency you can have an extra man in the team.
3: If you lost your AT-rifle, you are going to be in a world of hurt (this is just too much).

1. you need atgun
2. yes that normally happens
3. what do you mean? AFAIK you get the PTRD back if you reinforce.

Did you consider the benefits you gain by vet for the PTRS?
Did you consider that a PTRD shoots 1 time before reload and a PTRS shoots 5 times before reload?
AFAIk they have the same bullets

Last edited June 5, 2012 at 11:04 AM by Killar