Compstompers Corner

The purpose of this thread is to solicit the views of the Compstomper crowd, that may be beneficial to EF mod development and to stompers in general. Please no trashing of anyone.

blackbishop has this to say:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7845.msg114783#msg114783

I am in agreement with him. I hope he was engaging in hyperbole when he suggested only 1 in a thousand compstomper posts could be expected to be useful.  ;D

For Starters:

• It is evident to any Stomper that the AI doesn't know how to Lock down a Zis Ambulance. IIRC the Dev Team doesn't have a handle on  correcting this issue at present. Any ideas? (other than removing the ZIs from the AI BO if no solution can be found).


• The Sov AI BO spawns sharpshooter squads that upgrade to 1 man FO's and no snipers. jojorabbit has a v1.0 solution to this. The DevTeam should solicit his input.


• In AI teamplay the initial BO are the same. IE AI 3x3 at T1 Wher you can expect to see 3MGs/ 3MGs/ 3 snipers to appear at the same time. Since the Comp sees all/ knows all the human player gets targeted with these miniblobs. It is not a problem per se. But it does influence how a novice player/stomper is impacted by their early EF experience. An experienced Player will just say "learn how to  play". An experienced Stomper will learn how to play with the miniblob condition. The player/stomper tactical responses are radically different tactically and in this case mutually exclusive. Unfortunately the novice player gets frustrated, snubbed,(unintentionally of course), and moves onto another mod. I  think a little more compassion on the part of oldtimers might be in order when dealing with the noobs. Wether a newcomer to EF goes the player route or the stomper route, rest assured they won't play if they don't stay.

Moderators move this thread to wherever you deem it most appropriate.

Last edited April 5, 2012 at 3:45 PM by Otto Halfhand

even though i doubt i will spend much time on this thread, i still think its a good idea. good job!

@Stealthattack1: You just made my day. One post, one good idea.... Why the odds are 1000:1.  ;D

Nice idea for a thread.

Otto wrote:
The purpose of this thread is to solicit the views of the Compstomper crowd, that may be beneficial to EF mod development and to stompers in general. Please no trashing of anyone.

blackbishop has this to say:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7845.msg114783#msg114783

I am in agreement with him. I hope he was engaging in hyperbole when he suggested only 1 in a thousand compstomper posts could be expected to be useful.  ;D

For Starters:

• It is evident to any Stomper that the AI doesn't know how to Lock down a Zis Ambulance. IIRC the Dev Team doesn't have a handle on  correcting this issue at present. Any ideas? (other than removing the ZIs from the AI BO if no solution can be found).


• The Sov AI BO spawns sharpshooter squads that upgrade to 1 man FO's and no snipers. jojorabbit has a v1.0 solution to this. The DevTeam should solicit his input.


• In AI teamplay the initial BO are the same. IE AI 3x3 at T1 Wher you can expect to see 3MGs/ 3MGs/ 3 snipers to appear at the same time. Since the Comp sees all/ knows all the human player gets targeted with these miniblobs. It is not a problem per se. But it does influence how a novice player/stomper is impacted by their early EF experience. An experienced Player will just say "learn how to  play". An experienced Stomper will learn how to play with the miniblob condition. The player/stomper tactical responses are radically different tactically and in this case mutually exclusive. Unfortunately the novice player gets frustrated, snubbed,(unintentionally of course), and moves onto another mod. I  think a little more compassion on the part of oldtimers might be in order when dealing with the noobs. Wether a newcomer to EF goes the player route or the stomper route, rest assured they won't play if they don't stay.

Moderators move this thread to wherever you deem it most appropriate.

1. For start use Zis ambulance similar to triage center lock it down near hq. Maybe to improve later.

2. Don't worry i have informed some of EF team members about my solution, probably they are busy so i have to be patient. Well since you discovered my work ;D i will tell more about what i did.

I noticed when playing against 2x Soviet AI both made same stuff.
Here is what i have done.
- made new BO similar to one here :
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7845.msg114922#msg114922
- Turn off Arty spotter for AI

After 10 mins of game AI controlled about 60-70% of map with army on image:


Basic BO was: Ing x2 (build SSB) - T2b - Sniper x2
From image it kinda looks like GodlikeDennis mentioned here: :P
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7845.msg114941#msg114941
Backtech to T1 and get CS/Strelky AI had some conscripts too :).

Q: What do you think about AI army after 10mins? Please specify pros and cons of army? Suppose that you started as wehr BO HMG and volks cuz you did not expect snipers, what would you do next.

Q2: Any comments suggestions?

Note: It was VP game on Angoville Farms.

3. I don't think they are same, they are very similar.
Almost in each Wehr BO there is sniper or HMG or both so it looks same, that is why you got 3MGs/ 3MGs/ 3 snipers.
I think AI made that cuz you had mostly rifleman and maybe HMG.

A little about how Wehr AI "thinks" it is just poor example AI is ways better then this.
- I have build t1 lets see what unit is best to use against enemy units.
-> Does enemy have sniper
          -> yes -> build motorbike
          -> no  -> lets see other stuff
-> Does enemy have HMG or rifleman
          -> yes -> build sniper or build HMG
          -> no  -> lets see other stuff

What am trying to say is that AI counters HMG with snipers or mortars since mortars are not available  in t1 AI uses snipers, AI counters snipers with motorbikes or counter sniping, etc.

Am still noob and i play like noob. I like to play slowly most of time defensively and still did not leave mod i only play it more :D.

Last edited April 5, 2012 at 8:33 PM by jojorabbit

A very impressive OB in ten minutes. X4 AI factions - definitely unbalanced. A probability matrix needs to be added for Sharpshooter BO. 30%sniper/70% FO? or T2b BO 35%AT/25% Sniper/20%FO/20% Zis Ambulance? Do you have any ideas on how to get the FO sharpshooter to reinforce?

BTW what difficulty level was AI set at? It might be a good idea to use normal settings for test runs. IIRC normal=Human resource collection rate.

With a fast vehicle start a Player can produce ~ 3 t70/t90 s in 10 minutes.

Otto wrote:
A very impressive OB in ten minutes. X4 AI factions - definitely unbalanced. A probability matrix needs to be added for Sharpshooter BO. 30%sniper/70% FO? or T2b BO 35%AT/25% Sniper/20%FO/20% Zis Ambulance? Do you have any ideas on how to get the FO sharpshooter to reinforce?

BTW what difficulty level was AI set at? It might be a good idea to use normal settings for test runs. IIRC normal=Human resource collection rate.

With a fast vehicle start a Player can produce ~ 3 t70/t90 s in 10 minutes.

AI was set to hard.

AI does not know how to use arty spotter so he does not reinforce it, and uses it like normal sniper attacks with it etc, currently i have turned arty spotter off for ai until i accomplish what i want :).

Will test other Denis BOs as soon as i will have more time :).

I would like to discuss is the notion that the Sovs are an infantry faction. They are of course, and a particularly fine one at that. I do not use the Sovs as an infantry oriented faction. I view it in terms of a Combined Arms faction. One of the crew indicated the Sov faction was designed to have a weak end-game. I fear he is right. I think the idea is bad  from a game design POV. But it is what it is. 

If you use the Sovs as a CA oriented faction it doesn't have a weak endgame at all. The Soviet TO&E is wonderful. With lots of AFV types and superior action at a distance weaponry; why would you want to invest energy in developing infantry tactics. There is a fly in the ointment as well. 8 pop cost for Guards. I'm sure it is a balance issue, so I shouldn't comment. But really, a Gds Squad is equal to a T34/KV?

If you are a stomper and don't care if Players know it, post a profile here.  It will help us optimize our style of gaming experience.

Stomper Profile
I am a Stomper. PE Kampfgruppe tactics are my meat. Wehr is a wonderful faction but the vet system is no fun and I have an aesthetic  aversion to StugIV, (and Bergetigers too. I don't mind the T90 prototype though). My basic OB is low level infantry, tank hunters, upgraded (artillery and armor). My present knowledge of EF 1.6 sees me using hard settings and 2v2 , 3v3 and 2v3AI most of the time. 1v1 needs must be a different beast but I prefer expert settings for that. When the good humor truck lockdown issue is resolved play vs Sov AI will be improved,(harder). I win about 80% of the time, and when I lose it is always a soft kill. Surprisingly 1000VP games are my nemesis. I am looking forward to 250 VP games in the not to distant future. I normally play with the Sovs and Heer. This would be unthinkable for MP team play. Sovs vs PE AI is a cakewalk. Playing against CW AI is a waste of time. RMC is pretty good. I hope it comes back online quickly. Sov AI and Amis AI opponents are pretty good. I give the Sovs and edge here. When it comes to micro I am "physically challenged", (you can read that as retarded, I've been a gimp all my life - I don't mind. And retarded is a better description).

Otto wrote:
I would like to discuss is the notion that the Sovs are an infantry faction. They are of course, and a particularly fine one at that. I do not use the Sovs as an infantry oriented faction. I view it in terms of a Combined Arms faction. One of the crew indicated the Sov faction was designed to have a weak end-game. I fear he is right. I think the idea is bad  from a game design POV. But it is what it is. 

If you use the Sovs as a CA oriented faction it doesn't have a weak endgame at all. The Soviet TO&E is wonderful. With lots of AFV types and superior action at a distance weaponry; why would you want to invest energy in developing infantry tactics. There is a fly in the ointment as well. 8 pop cost for Guards. I'm sure it is a balance issue, so I shouldn't comment. But really, a Gds Squad is equal to a T34/KV?

The Soviets are more of a Combined Arms faction than anything, not an infantry nor a vehicular. Relatively diverse teching, powerful infantry and strong/speedy tanks all equate to such a faction that really can not rely well on just vehicles or just on infantry yet when used in combination the two work beautifully.

I wouldn't call the Soviet Endgame weak. (IS-2=Parallel to PBG/T34-85/KV-85/Shock Guards)
It is designed to be a very powerful endgame, comparable to the Wehrmacht but still unable to steamroll the axis. (An IS-3 will still lose to a KT in a one-on-one if the Wehrmacht player keeps the IS-3 from hitting him in the rear too often. In previous patches with horrid balance, a single IS-2 was able to beat a King Tiger if played properly.)

Guards are placed at 8 Pop because of their incredible diversity in countering, their immeasurable resilience to enemy fire and extremely powerful upgrades. Compare them to the Knights Cross Holders, whom come with 6 CP. Guards can throw powerful grenades against both infantry and tanks, can deploy smoke to help advance against infantry, and come with elite armor right off the bat. The SVT-40 is an improved rifle that is powerful at nearly all ranges (though most happy at medium-long range), and gives the squad an extra punch. If you invest in Shock Guards, you unlock the only squad in the game that can run-and-gun with a LMG on the move. They can also use PPS-43s with that upgrade, which are fairly on-par (or more powerful) than MP40s, making them a beefier assault squad compared to the KCH.

Otto wrote:
If you are a stomper and don't care if Players know it, post a profile here.  It will help us optimize our style of gaming experience.

I like the idea of this thread. Hopefully it will cater to the AI loving crowd and help build the community a bit more. Maybe you guys will team up more often and venture into PvP play.  8)

Quote
Stomper Profile
I am a Stomper. PE Kampfgruppe tactics are my meat. Wehr is a wonderful faction but the vet system is no fun and I have an aesthetic  aversion to StugIV, (and Bergetigers too. I don't mind the T90 prototype though). My basic OB is low level infantry, tank hunters, upgraded (artillery and armor). My present knowledge of EF 1.6 sees me using hard settings and 2v2 , 3v3 and 2v3AI most of the time. 1v1 needs must be a different beast but I prefer expert settings for that. When the good humor truck lockdown issue is resolved play vs Sov AI will be improved,(harder). I win about 80% of the time, and when I lose it is always a soft kill. Surprisingly 1000VP games are my nemesis. I am looking forward to 250 VP games in the not to distant future. I normally play with the Sovs and Heer. This would be unthinkable for MP team play. Sovs vs PE AI is a cakewalk. Playing against CW AI is a waste of time. RMC is pretty good. I hope it comes back online quickly. Sov AI and Amis AI opponents are pretty good. I give the Sovs and edge here. When it comes to micro I am "physically challenged", (you can read that as retarded, I've been a gimp all my life - I don't mind. And retarded is a better description).

Soviet VS PE balance is a bit messed up (noticeable in some team games) primarily because of teching but it's definitely being looked into. RMC won't return for a while as it's a bit of a mess to clean up, and it's hard (impossible even??) for the AI to use the RMC. (I don't remember if that was fixed yet.)

Generally the more time the Wehrmacht has to recollect and counterattack, the worse off you'll be, primarily because their strength comes with veterancy and elite late game units (Panthers, Tigers, King Tigers, KCH, Vetted Grens) as opposed to Numbers which is somewhat how the Soviets are measured out.

As for underlined, I wouldn't say that :) Just a bit of a hindering, it shouldn't stop you from enjoying the game.  ;)

Hey! Let the last become first: I do enjoy the game, especially since EFcame on line.

Re Guards. I don't question the potency of Guards one iota. Nice to know they still have that Shoot on the Scoot LMG. What's the accuracy penalty while moving? One of you'all stated the Gds SVT40 is the Same as NI SVT40. Seems to me that 90 HP Gds with PPS would make more sense if you had 5 SVT40s in an NI squad for mid=range work. What are the HP for NI right now?

In either case at 8 pop /squad I usually end up opting for a T34/85. ALthough I am coming to like the KV/85 more and more.

As for CW/RMC AI featuring the suicide highlander command trucks I think someone who understands SCAR programming could implement a change that prohibited U/L command trucks when a given minimum "victory condition" isn't met. It could also initiate L/D for same if you fell below the minimum condition. Not perfect of course but better than a convoy of command trucks running past your AT/shreks.

Can I compstomp with you  :-\ What's your id in CoH?

Dann88 wrote:
Can I compstomp with you  :-\ What's your id in CoH?

TheIronDream @ 10 ish 4.7.12 i will be happy to engage.  :)
Dann  just so you know, this thread is oriented more to a discussion thread rather than a play dating service.  ;) I glad you posted.  :)

About Brits trucks, just let them stay at base only like Zis medic truck and give the Brits more res income than other factions with same difficult. IE: normal Brits get more res than US normal no matter the trucks go out the base or not. Because the AI's job is getting as hard as they can to make it a challenge to human player. :P

Guards fill many of the roles of Stormtroopers. Likewise, they cost 8 pop so they aren't spammed as main infantry. In previous iterations, guards were only 4-6 pop compared to the Strelky 7. This was a contributing factor to why people would just blob them up late game. Now it's 8 vs 6.

NI SVTs are similar (the same?) as M1 Garands for US riflemen. NI need to be upgraded to be good. Guards have the Strelky mosin by default. Their SVT upgrade is very powerful.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Guards fill many of the roles of Stormtroopers. Likewise, they cost 8 pop so they aren't spammed as main infantry. In previous iterations, guards were only 4-6 pop compared to the Strelky 7. This was a contributing factor to why people would just blob them up late game. Now it's 8 vs 6.

NI SVTs are similar (the same?) as M1 Garands for US riflemen. NI need to be upgraded to be good. Guards have the Strelky mosin by default. Their SVT upgrade is very powerful.

EF documentation say NI getSVT40. SVT40s=M1 =GD/SVT40? or not?

NI SVTs = M1 Garands
Guard SVTs are roughly based on PE G43s, much stronger.

Excellent initiative! If anybody is interested in playing compstomp matches/discuss different tactics, add me: Ils23

Hi, all.

I know that am not part of EF team. No offence to anyone.
AI is great but there are a lot of bugs specially in soviet AI.
No offence to EF AI coders they did a great job.

Am writing this mainly cuz I know that i can fix some of bugs to make AI more challenge to human players :) .
Maybe some of you will think am too ambitious but am not.

So we have these bugs in AI:

BRIT TRUCKS BUG

QuoteAbout Brits trucks, just let them stay at base only like Zis medic truck and give the Brits more res income than other factions with same difficult. IE: normal Brits get more res than US normal no matter the trucks go out the base or not. Because the AI's job is getting as hard as they can to make it a challenge to human player

ARTY SPOTTER REINFORCE BUG:
AI does not reinforce Arty spotter.

ZIS MEDIC TRUCK BUG:

QuoteFor start use Zis ambulance similar to triage center lock it down near hq. Maybe to improve later.

ZIS3 BUG:
I also noticed some bugs with ZIS3-AT. But will leave that for other post when i will know more about it.

---

Here are some changes that i made:
- fixed: bug AI upgrades molotovs even if it does not have any conscripts (rule: at least have 2 conscripts for molotovs), AI forces conscript rifle upgrade (if using propaganda doctrine)

- fixed: vCOH AI properly counters Soviet snipers and AT-guns
- fixed: Soviet AI properly counters vCoH light vehicles
- fixed: Soviet AI builds normal mines :)
- fixed: some balancing of Russian AI upgrade system (like AI does not upgrade tank hunters or shock guards if he can't build them -> they require some other stuff like close support for tank hunters)
- fixed: Soviet AI likes Sturmovie more then before
- fixed: Soviet AI gets vehicles faster then before
- fixed: Soviet Sharp Shooter and Arty Spotter bug -> now AI upgrades to sniper more often then to Arty Spotter (only 1 arty spotter allowed :) )
- fixed: some build limitations of Soviet AI

Making ai more challenging
- all AI factions build more mines then usual :P


Any critics, comments, suggestions are welcome.
Please report all bugs you may find :).

Thank you.

@jojorabbit  +3  8) Caesar was ambitious and he conquered Gaul, Hispanicus and Aegyptus. I do believe you can conquer Mother Russia.

Nils18 wrote:
Excellent initiative! If anybody is interested in playing compstomp matches/discuss different tactics, add me: Ils23

This is the place for comp v P play Strategy & Tactics. (Note: 2v2 and 3v3 games are the usual basis for AI unit quantities. If your thinking in terms of 1v1 please say so. That is a whole different game for stompers).

For starters: stompers have to face combinations that are very uncommon for players. 6-8 MG42s 3 snipers and three ATG's are not uncommon and frequently appear in combination. Since SAKA applies (Sees All, Knows All), these heavy hitters magically appear in your area of operations. Sound familiar?

Tactic Screening: Employ a low reinforce-cost squad  as a shield between your High value squads, (CS, snipers, PGs), and the enemy. Conscripts , Strelky, THs are good choices for Sovs. Falls and LWGF and kets screen PG's well. Rifle squads and VGs work well with Amis and Wehr. The CW recce section is a particularly good screening unit.

Doctrine of Pairs (Concentration of Force): Always use groups of twos or threes on the front line. Two infantry squads is always a good bet. Two ACs for PE is potent. the pairs need not be identical  Sov Strelky/Tank hunter Platoons give a nice soft counter. Sov infantry companies are better. (INF, INF, TH). My favorite however is two 107mm mortars. Other factions of course will other combinations.

Maneuver and Fire is an American development from the WWII era. works well with infantry platoons (2 squads). The tactic is to move from cover to cover. As one squad achieves cover (green for preference) it stops, and the hindmost squad advances leapfrogging to the next good cover or perhaps a capping point. .Yes I just advocated using two squads to cap one point. Should enemy come into contact with you stop the advancing/capping squad  and seek cover, preferably off to the flank were the squad may use enfilade fire or flanking.
If you have a superiority of 3:1 in rifles (squads if you prefer), consider engaging the enemy.

M & F works well with infantry companies (3 squads). Three infantry squads is good but I think a support squad is better. The obvious choices for support are HMGs, Mortars and snipers. Less obvious support squads include AT-infantry engineers. In addition to the soft vehicle counter you have the ability to bypass strong points while the support squads can reduce outposts, pill boxes and emplacements and/or engage in  defencing operations.

I suggest using the infantry company as a group. When it encounters overwhelming force the group can retreat to base; where you will have a viable combat force ready to resume operations in short order.

Far and away the best Squad type for M&F operations is the Amis rifle squad with BARsuppression.

Last edited April 11, 2012 at 6:05 AM by Otto Halfhand

Do you prefer to use the T34 series or the KV series when you go Stomping. I like the KV series myself. They can take a couple more shots of damage before they retire from the fight. Not so fast as the T34s but I for one don't enjoy the point blank death spiral duels that individual tank battles devolve into.

I normally only deploy tanks in 2 vehicle platoons because of PoP considerations. I think a 3 tank company using a maneuver element (one tank) and a 2 tank (platoon) fire element would work very well together. What has been your experience in this regard? I always include 2ing or one Stormovie with my tank formations for repairs.

Well generally T-34s are faster but KVs are stronger. IIRC KVs cost more. I prefer T-34s but since we are stomping here I think KVs are better.

The question shouldn't be who your opponent is, rather, what your best tactics are and what the map/setting will be like.

T34s can use their speed to their advantage to deliver fast firepower and flank enemy emplacements to allow the advancement of other armor. Their gun is fairly powerful for a medium tank but inaccurate on the move. I would use these guys on the move in a shoot and stop tactic, getting around heavy AT guns or circling things like Marders and Stugs and hit them hard.

KVs, on the other hand, offer thicker armor and thus less penetration from weapons like Paks, Shrecks, and other AT items you commonly see at the stage of the game you can pop a KV1. Though ghastly slow, their armor serves well to protect it from such AT measures and thus you can use them to advance forward instead of flanking.

Map basis and play style is key. On a map like Langres, your best bet is to use the T34 because of flanking manuvers and fairly open ground except for the Hedge in the middle.

On a map like Semois, however, vision and mobility is severly blocked by Buildings and tall walls and hedges. T34 flank attacks won't do you much good here. To protect against sneaky PaKs you should invest in KVs because of the increased armor.

On a map like Angoville...it's sort of 50/50 because of the map dynamic. T34s are a good choice but KVs could come in handy because of the western part of the map.

Just examples.

Good advice and tips on the Flanking.

Stop, Shoot and move is the only way to get effective fire from the T34/76, IMO. Its also historically relevant.  :)

Your mapping comments are correct but of less utility on many of THe EF maps, (Sylver's excluded). There is an awful amount of bad ground for armor on EF maps. Maybe the infantry orientation has something to do with that? BTW do you tend to play more on the Classic CoH maps or on EF maps? - just curious.

Hi guys,
I've been working on AI coding for the Dev_Team. Much of this work is routine drudgery; making sure all Ts are crossed and Is dotted, and that everything is copacetic. It is about 10% write and 90%  rewrite. Pretty typical for most technical writing. I do not create new stuff per se but make sure the Devs Mod_concept is implemented and see that no EF_mod baby is left behind.

I am at a point where I believe the bookeeping parts of this task are under control and am starting to think about and implement how to improve the AI rather than just make it work correctly. Here is where you CompStompers come in. What kind of improvements do you want to see in the EF/CoH AI?

I am not talking about making new units or creating rules that target Triage Centers or anything that modifies the Balance in PVP that the Developers wish to maintain. At this point in time I am not well enough versed in Relic's SCAR coding to create new AI tactics. When I am confident I can do so I intend to develop and implement new AI tactics that emulate WWII era tactical doctrine.

I am working diligently to control SPAMs. Q. When is a SPAM not a SPAM? ... A. When it is a controlled SPAM. Six or more SU76s is a SPAM. If you see three SU76's, three T70's and Two T90's is this a SPAM? Well yes it is, but it is a controlled SPAM and much more interesting and challenging to counter.

OK stompers here is an opportunity to improve things for your style of play. All Suggestions and Ideas are welcomed.

Last edited July 22, 2012 at 11:56 AM by Otto Halfhand

Well I don't know whether this is what you mean but... based on my experiences I think that there is a big difference between hard EF AI and expert EF AI. Expert is really about spamming whilst hard is making more different units. Did you take a look at that?

Spam is obviously the biggest issue amongest comp games. If units were hard capped at 3-4 then it would be a lot better.

Also the AI tends to retreat units too late and they die alot. Maybe if the squad health is like at 20% or 30%

And sometimes the AI make poor decisions (for ex: it tired to pio spam once). Maybe a certain BO should be implemented.

Americans make too many support weapons.

Tankbuster: do the support weapons you speak of have abilities that use munis? A list of what squads you are talking about would be helpful.

Fish: You are right about SPAM. I think uncontrolled SPAMS can be eliminated, (I may eat those words)  :P , without resorting to hard caps. The trick as I see it is to reduce the demand for the unit to demand < =15, at which point the Comp ignores it. I need to find a way to reduce the demands better. the existing code has a "reduced Demand on unit count FCN but it demonstratively doesn't work. I find that the AI squads retreat to soon for my liking but the condition you are referring to can be lessened by increasing the global (s.) defensiveness variable.

I tried an ingeneri spam BuildOrder and was less then satisfied with it. You might suggest a BO to be tried. BTW the AI coding for Wehr is not set up for piospam. It could be, but it isn't now. In general I have wehr ai on the backburner until Ostheer is working. Wehr's AI is better than most.

Nlis18: There are at least two ways in which AI_Hard and AI_Harder (expert), are different at present. Each level of difficulty has its own set of global (s.) variables. (Defensiveness was mentioned earlier). Other variables consider other conditions. The comp likes attack at 1.6:1 odds. Personally I would use 2:1 odds but these can be changed. The big kicker for AI is its resource bonus.
Easy has no bonuses. Standard, (normal) has a 1.2 x manpower bonus. hard has a 1.75 x MP bonus and a 1.5 x Fl. and Mt. bonus. Harder has a 2.0 x MP and 1.75 Fl. and Mt bonus. (the manpower bonuses maybe a little different. How the coder takes advantage of these bonuses is another matter all together. I think many modders say Ooh I like that and increase demands to high levels. it don't have to be so.

If any of you'all want to see what I am talking about get a copy of Notepad++ and load up the AI files from the mod. When you open a file set the language to Lua. Also I suggest that you set the read only flags on your files until you get an understanding of Lua and the Coh rules. Saves a lot of reloading the mod time.

Last edited July 23, 2012 at 2:14 AM by Otto Halfhand

On some specific maps the Wehr AI will make nothing but pios and are easily dominated.

US AI has a tendency to spam mortars. It seems to have no concept of going straight to t3, no matter the fuel it has.

What maps in particular? BOs can be tailored for specific maps but the effectiveness of a BO is over- ridden after 8 minutes max. No hurry on this one Fish.

The biggest issue with Amis T3 as I understand it is the Amis Rifle Squad is a high value munitions squad. The munitions squads can override most coding efforts I am aware of at this time.

Mortar demand is a function of targets: Structures and emplacements and Sync weapons. This would include the at start bunkers and Quad flak emplacements in the base area. The Base MGs for CW and Sovs are not included. but if you play on a map with three bunkers per team member your initial mortardemand will be .09 Lightvehicle demand is based on count of snipers and spawning buildings. In a 3v3 game after the enemy builds one sniper apiece the the Lt_Veh_demand is only .06 . THis may account for the lack of Amis T3 builds as well as HT and AC are lightvehicles. Atta boy Fish. "MP44 now that's what I'm talking about".

@ Sir Sharks alot:
I have looked into the mortar Spam you said the Amis AI produces. AMis Mortars are not a muni unit. They are hard capped at 2. Actually this means you should see only 3 mortars max per comp player. If you see more than 3 it means one of two things. 1. you are beating the comp severely. 2. There is a problem with the code. I will keep an eye out in working with the code to find the error. Amis are regretably the last on my priority list for the EF_mod but if its coded for one faction it may be coded for several. BTW I don't need a replay. I believe you.

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Working with the developers I see different squads come and go. Some times I'm all for this. sometimes not. There are many interesting squads/models which the community never sees. As Compstompers would you like to see some of the squads that are not included in the mod for PvP play show up as comp squads? The mod devs want vCoH pvp play but if one side is all comp. "unofficial" or special SP units can be included for compstomps. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE THEM, ONLY KILL THEM! I can code this. If there is any interest at all I can figure out how to make a poll. but I want to "test the waters" here first. This is in no way official at this point. Just asking.

You never play against or with someone? Ever? I added your id but never see that id online.
I wanted to suggest that idea too but EF need more pvp matches. There are too many compstomp matches already.

Well...last time my AI allies called a V1 on my position because there was one AT gun. It definately destroyed the AT gun. As well as my 4 squads of vet3 Panzergrenadiers...

So yeah if you can try to make AI stop spamming superweapons, that'd be great...

The whole new units for comp is questionable. The only reason or justification for this is because the AI is not doing too well. Not to say the coders are doing a bad job but an AI of COH lvl will always be inherently worse than a player. Thats just how it is. You could argue it is for a "cool" new unit to fight but really its just to give the comp another advantage.

So the question really really comes down to do you want to tack on more strange advantages for the comp to fight you with or just leave it as it is. The add ons seem a bit tacky or unfun IMO. For example if you give an AI a free Calliope it's an advantage. The game becomes relatively harder. But its just not fun to go against. I mean you wanna feel like you won by your skills/tactics, not just cause you spammed or knew the AI was getting that Calliope so you got a preemptive Panther.

I mean if you think that the AI getting a different unit(s) is okay then thats fine, you have a right to ur opinion but I just personally dont like the idea too much.

An example of the com getting a special unit is the special CPU HT that always has its guns manned and doesn't require a garrison. This is because the com doesn't understand how to man the HT properly to control the guns.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
An example of the com getting a special unit is the special CPU HT that always has its guns manned and doesn't require a garrison. This is because the com doesn't understand how to man the HT properly to control the guns.

Wow I never knew that :P. I always thought a pio squad was sitting inside it.

Right as usual Dennis.

• Wehr gets a PIONIER w/repair that is or may be upgraded to Flamer for anti infantry work.


• CW gets a Brencarrier with TOMMY -no repair ability


• CW gets a KANGAROO with SAPPER -repair and Antitank abilities.


• PE gets a HALFTRACK with TANKBUSTER -repair and Antitank abilities.


• Amis don't have this yet IIRC, but will get a HALFTRACK with ENGINEER.

I would like to know what the balancers think would be the best squad to use for this purpose for OH.
@ Sir Sharks ALot: I appreciate your no vote. Not to invalidate it in anyway you are thinking too competitvely for Compstomping. Personally I like the variety of different units that may appear. They could even be randomized by associating then with AI CT selection.
In any case I have two motives here. First some units have been deleted or may be deleted that are already coded. I hate wasted effort on my part. :P Secondly a lot of effort has been put into creating these models. My programming philosophy is two-fold: THe AI should be coded in a non-biased fashion that reflects the game components The DevTeam and VCoH have made available to me. AND No EF_mod baby should be left behind.

HT with Jaegers or Panzerjaegers would probably be my bet.

It makes good sense to use jaegers or PzJaegers for the special_HT from a players point of view.I have little doubt that is how people will employ their Mechanized Infantry. The jaegers however would require upgrading to Tier three status to obtain HI status.Again this is not a problem from the human perspective and jaegers in their Tier 2 status would be good against snipers. On the otherhand Pzjaegers would give A nasty at edge to the AI or human player. I like the idea of using Strmpios or Pzjaegers myself. If We use Sturmpios the AI gets a tier2 rather than Tier three HI in the HalfTrack. It also gets a repair ability when the HT is blown up. This appeals to me in a CS role which is how I view Halftracks anyway. How many hitpoints do Jaegers, Pzjaegers and Sturmpios have. Remember to keep in mind that only a 3 man squad will emerge from a wrecked HT.

What do you'all think guys? Tier2 at_infantry, Tier2 HI_with repair or Tier3_HI. You have to fight them.

T3 is the building with Jaegers, Panzerjaegers and HTs. Giving them anything else wouldn't make sense to me because the com may not have teched in that direction. Sturmpios for example wouldn't be available if the player went for a T2 build. Giving the HT a garrison of Jaegers of Pjaegers would guarantee you always make sense at least. Unless of course the AI was predictable and always went T1-2-3-4.

Actually Dennis it doesn't matter what tech the AI pursues. Wher and Amis get pios in T2 and T3. In RMC Sappers in Roos from T4 etc. The AI playsby CoH rules.

Well Sturmpios won't be available for all techs at this stage, so the AI may not always have them. So it makes more sense for the HT to be built with a unit you know is always normally available with HT.

I'm not quite sure what your saying. I haven't teted it but You problably can call-in the SP HT even without a Tech spawner. I'll let you know when I find  out. I don't think this is a case of logic here.
My thinking here is to build a HT_with engineer when I build or call-in a high value Tank unit. the two will have similar aggression defenciveness and arrival time. They approach the enemy together Ht is targeted and the big gun gets off first shot and has a repaireer handy. One f these days I'll learn how to use mobs and write tactics but...