v1.6 What's your Soviet order of Battle?

What Order of Battle do you use for the Soviet Faction? We all pay lipservice to the concept that you shouldn't need Doctrinal Support to win. Is this really true or do you rely on a particular Doctrine?
Basically I challange you to sumbit the OB you typically use to play the game.

Rules:
Your OB should Include units and quantities from T0,T1,T2, T3, T4 but exclude doctrinal call-ins. I make one exception to this rule: If you have a preference for SPA rather than Firebases you may so state. Your OB should reflect what you actually build, not your wish list. There is one exception here as well. If you think the Sovs should have ACs available you may so state, pro or con. Your initial post should only include your OB, not commentary.

Otto's OB
CS /1 ing /2 Stormovie /5 conscripts /1 strelky /2 Gds /3 TH /2 hvy mortars /2 sharpshooters /1 AT/ Zis ambulance /1 T90 /2 T34/85 or 1 Heavy tank.
I prefer fire bases
I would like 2 ACs

um, im a little confused, how can you build a command squad without an injenery first? iirc you need a red army mustering tent to get CS, and since soviets dont have a starting unit, you cant strait off build a CS. please explain.

I think the 1st Inginery is implied since you literally can't play w/o building your first inginery

then why does it say

Quote/1 ing /

if there were 2? ???

IDK, ask him :P. Honestly his post is kind of confusing :P

Every game is different because you have to react to what your opponent does. There are a few template BOs I run off though.

Standard:
Ing (barracks) - CS - cons X3 - molos - T2a or b

Vehicles:
Ing (barracks) - CS - cons X4 - molos and/or NI as needed - T3 - T90/70s

Fast T2:
Ing X2 (barracks & caps) - CS - con X1-2 - T2 - Strelkyspam

From these 3 general build orders I can adapt them to mortar support, sniper spam, T4 teching - whatever I want really.

It's hard to pinpoint such a complex order like Otto identified. You'd be better off setting up Templates like Dennis. You can't get too wrapped around a certain BO because if you do chances are it won't work. If the enemy pops a fast Puma and you're so wrapped up into getting fast vehicles that you don't have T2 you'll be destroyed unless you go for Propaganda real fast with several munitions on hand, and if you have a build order chances are you already have your doctrine chosen.

Yeah chances are if you have a concrete BO and you screw up somewhere then you will be both confused and behind. Better to have standard things and adapt from there :P.

I generally get (although Im a noob >_<)

Ing-Barracks-CS-Consx3 (x4 if I feel confident in my ability to push enemy off map w/o better inf)-T2a or b (usually a)- T3 fast T70.

You probably dont need the T2 in this but I feel better with it :D

Guys I am not talking about build order.
@ Cranial please tell me about (or shoot me a link), Dennis's Template tool. oops!

Last edited April 3, 2012 at 12:48 AM by Otto 213

Otto wrote:
Guys I am not talking about build order.

Then would you care to clarify?

Otto wrote:
What Order of Battle do you use for the Soviet Faction? We all pay lipservice to the concept that you shouldn't need Doctrinal Support to win. Is this really true or do you rely on a particular Doctrine?
Basically I challange you to sumbit the OB you typically use to play the game.

Is that for comp stomping or PvP?

Killar wrote:
Is that for comp stomping or PvP?

a good question.

Cat wrote:

Otto wrote:
Guys I am not talking about build order.

Then would you care to clarify?

I am interested in:

• Reading the chatter it seems to me that players are concentrating (relying if you will) on Propaganda Doctrine. Not a problem as far as the game goes. If it works, great. Use it. Thinking in terms of the Mod though; Focusing on Propaganda may help "perfect" that Doctrine but wlll slow down detection/correction of Problems in the other two  Doctrines. The v1.6 Changes to Breakthrough are a case in point. Asa player I hate the change and and less likely to use it. THe changes that were made may have been necessary for balance but if no one uses the  Doctrine how will we know. Mod development will slow down, and when Ostheer arrives the problem may fall through the cracks. Causing a Balancing headache later on. Capisch?


• I am interested in the types of unit mixes players would use if Doctrines were unavailable to "pull the fat out of the fire". Dennis' templates provide the type of information I'm looking for. He is a clear thinker and very astute. GodLike he may be but his is one voice in over 7,000. I am interested in theother 6,999+ viewpoints as well.

I hope this clears up the situation.

I think its more for pvp then AI play. I rant about 2CP NI but that is never a problem in compstomps.

Last edited April 3, 2012 at 1:22 AM by Otto 213

i know some players are getting a feel for the recently (re)added penal troops. this might be part of the reason why youre seeing propaganda more. as for my build order, it all depends.

People rely on Propaganda doctrine because of the Naval Infantry. When you as rushing vehicles you don't want to spend fuel right? So you don't build T2. But w/o T2 you have no hard hitting infantry. So thats where NI come in. They act as a effective stop gap until you get Tanks and can then maybe back tech. They have light AT and good AI with their elite armor and DPs

Breakthrough and Propaganda are the two most used doctrines. I don't see what the problem is with Breakthrough. Urban has issues because it is a reliant Anti-Infantry doctrine primarily with not too many late game benefits against tanks.

I see less utility in breakthrough w/o 85 TRs and have not had the opportunity to truly evaluate the change.

Urban is more than an infantry doctrine. The LHS is well organized and the "For the Motherland" a good value At 3CP. I would like to see the Partizan cost set at the same price as NI.

On several maps 2 Partizans can interdict almost all Axis resource production for Three minutes or more at a time! It takes a good bit of micro but even if both squads are eliminated In three minutes you get more than enough MP to infiltrate 2 more squads. And the disruption ;D ;D 90-95% map control for 3 mins repeatable every 9 minutes or so. If and when players see it, I predict headaches for the balancers.

I believe this might be what your referring to as issues?

LHS urban is decent but doesn't give you any AT tools. It's best when you're facing 2 MG42s or more and bunkers. The KV-2 is also great against entrenched positions and blobs.

RHS is a little worse. Partisans come quite late at 3cps considering their health. Flare is decent but not overtly powerful or direct. It's best used with mortars and partisans (because they can cloak up to an enemy, activate a damage boost and then destroy at close range). Sniper Ace is a very useful addition to your forces but doesn't have the same battlefield impact as other end-tree options.

In both cases, lots of non-doc AT is needed.

Otto wrote:
On several maps 2 Partizans can interdict almost all Axis resource production for Three minutes or more at a time! It takes a good bit of micro but even if both squads are eliminated In three minutes you get more than enough MP to infiltrate 2 more squads. And the disruption ;D ;D 90-95% map control for 3 mins repeatable every 9 minutes or so. If and when players see it, I predict headaches for the balancers.

Ehhhhh what are you talking about? Cause I don't think I've ever seen this, nor do I think it works the way it should on paper :P. I don't really think you can disrupt that much with 2 partisan squads. Expecting both to simply die is not a good mentality IMO. And if you are burning 600mp every 2 minutes, you will be very behind in comparison to your enemy. You will lack both main line units and effective AT. And lets say your partisians do survive every time you do this. Then you will be stuck with like, what, 6 partisans squads all half wounded and no AT to stop a vehicle inbound?

Otto wrote:
I think its more for pvp then AI play. I rant about 2CP NI but that is never a problem in compstomps.

I wonder if your balance concerns in this and other threads are viewed from the comp stompers point of view too.

Killar. I mostly play vs AI, I have only two fully functional fingers on my dominant hand, and competitive micro is pretty much beyond my means. I have played wargames for over 45 years and have a pretty good grasp  :P on pvp plays styles. I try in these posts to take the pvp POV, for the mods sake. I know that sometimes this leads to erroneous or silly commentary. I am willing to bear the odium of the PvP crowd. PvP is the way this mod must go. "If life gives you lemons , make Daiquiris"

The Legend: During the 100 years War the English and Welsh Longbowmen chewed up the French. You need the index and middle fingers to handle the 160# draw of the longbow; which was made from Yew. The French retaliated by cutting the index finger of captured bowmen. Longbowmen would taunt the French by raising middle and index finger and shouting Pluck Yew. Of course maimed bowmen could only flip them the bird.... Surprisingly the tradition is still popular today in a slightly modified form.

EF Must work  for PvP. but don't forget the Compstompers. If you have a problem with this check out my new Avatar.

Last edited April 3, 2012 at 1:35 PM by Otto Halfhand

Cat wrote:

Otto wrote:
On several maps 2 Partizans can interdict almost all Axis resource production for ....

Ehhhhh what are you talking about? Cause I don't think I've ever seen this, nor do I think it works the way it should on paper :P . I don't really think you can disrupt that much with 2 partisan squads. Expecting both to simply die is not a good mentality IMO. And if you are burning 600mp every 2 minutes, you will be very behind in comparison to your enemy. You will lack both main line units and effective AT. And lets say your partisians do survive every time you do this. Then you will be stuck with like, what, 6 partisans squads all half wounded and no AT to stop a vehicle inbound?

Take some time and look at the tactical maps for ALL of the EF maps, On many of them you will see 2 Strategic points, (not necessarily SPs) that if decapped will severely impact your opponents resource production for the time it takes to move to the location and recap. It is easier to do it with PE Scorched Earth Doctrine but that is hit and run. It can also be done with PE LW Doctrine Falls.
The Partizans and to a lesser extent the Sniper Ace can do it one better. For best effect decap/cap both points at the same time and Hit the axis blobs with all available artillery.

If you can interdict ~90% of the map from enemy control  for 2-3 minutes the only effective counter is for Wehr to use their manpower blitz.  If you can coordinate it with the Soviet (or Scorched Earth) artillery strike on the blob. the ambush is much more effective. High level players know this shit! GLD clued me into using the "Flare Drop", something I hadn't thought about.
As far as wasting one or two Partizans: I don't like that either. But if you interdict the enemies MP gain rate for 2-3 minutes it doesn't matter. Your differential MP gain rate will pay for 2 more Partizans you can immediately infiltrate into the area.

Regrettably  Killar I am overdependent on AI play. It definitely  colors my thinking. I am thinking PvP when I make these posts and it is your job to set me straight when I go astray. A job the Balancing team does well and repeatedly. In this particular case I believe I am right on.

he is right about disrupting resources. this is a viable tactic with partisans if there are buildings close by.

@ Otto, whether you have only 2 fully functional fingers on your dominant had or not, i don't think that has to limit you. of course it gives you a disadvantage, but keep trying. for example, i pretty much typed  this whole message with four fingers. why? i don't know how to type. but i still typed it. so keep trying, and don't give up.

I ain't giving up. Compstomps are not  PVP; but they are better than being poked in the eye with a stick. If I manage get my digits back I'd love to start climbing the ladders. THere is no place to go but up. :P Having to deal with high level players is a real sap on the ego. I am not slamming anyone. They are correct .... much of the time. And a good crew on the whole. I considered IDda'Yid  ;D when I decided to change my Username. I am a little bit Jewish,  (sorta like being a little pregnant, I guess); but I don't want to offend those of a more thin skinned nature. Thank you for your encouragement.

BTW: you are right on about the buildings and infiltration. Infiltration doesn't work with the pre-placed Ruins, which you see a lot of on EF maps.

Last edited April 3, 2012 at 4:32 PM by Otto Halfhand

Killar wrote:

Otto wrote:
I think its more for pvp then AI play. I rant about 2CP NI but that is never a problem in compstomps.

I wonder if your balance concerns in this and other threads are viewed from the comp stompers point of view too.

What I read in this post, is that if you are a "comp stomper" you lose credibility when posting regardless if what you post is right or wrong.

I have noticed this behavior being running free all this time, but this elitism should stop.

If it can be demonstrated to be a valid issue, you should care less were it comes from. Everyone should stop treating Skirmish players(aka "Compstompers") as second class citizens. While it is true that we balance EF through PvP, players that like to play vs AI still can post their concerns as well.

Does this means we should listen Compstompers for applying balance changes? Don't tell me you think we should ignore them :-\. You should listen both players' feedback, PvP & Compstompers and then assimilate what is going to be good for the mod and just discard what not. If it is assigned priority to PvP feedback, so be it but that doesn't mean the rest of the players are just ignored because aren't PvP.

+1 Bishop

blackbishop wrote:

Killar wrote:

Otto wrote:
I think its more for pvp then AI play. I rant about 2CP NI but that is never a problem in compstomps.

I wonder if your balance concerns in this and other threads are viewed from the comp stompers point of view too.

What I read in this post, is that if you are a "comp stomper" you lose credibility when posting regardless if what you post is right or wrong.

I have noticed this behavior being running free all this time, but this elitism should stop.

If it can be demonstrated to be a valid issue, you should care less were it comes from. Everyone should stop treating Skirmish players(aka "Compstompers") as second class citizens. While it is true that we balance EF through PvP, players that like to play vs AI still can post their concerns as well.

Does this means we should listen Compstompers for applying balance changes? Don't tell me you think we should ignore them :-\. You should listen both players' feedback, PvP & Compstompers and then assimilate what is going to be good for the mod and just discard what not. If it is assigned priority to PvP feedback, so be it but that doesn't mean the rest of the players are just ignored because aren't PvP.

You are doing me wrong here. I never told anybody in this particular post and others that they are second class citizens. In fact the only 2 times i said something about compstompers are in this thread and as a response to Otto.
Blaming me about things other balancers may have said is not fair.

Just to be clear here: There aren´t 2 kind of balance. This game is made for competetive gameplay which means that no army is stronger than the other (at least thats how it should be). You can win regardless which faction you choose.
Playing against AI just switches a human player with a computer one. As the computer isn´t as smart as a human player the game would be shortly over.
To be more challenging the computer player gets more ressources and is harder to kill compared to a human counterpart.

So if you have not much experience in playing competetive games then you will look at things only from a comp stompers point of view. If my enemy axis AI has suddenly 3 stugs because of the high ressources (instead should have at this time in the game only 1) and i call in a t34/76 then i clearly get the impression that i need a better cannon to beat the spam.

But these changes if granted will affect the normal games too, which will get unbalanced.

Thats why i asked because i wasn´t sure if he had issues while playing against AI or human.

The best thing to post a balance issue is to post a replay and tell at what time in the game it happened.

I play against computer too but only to test particular units against each other to see how they perform.

Ofc players that like to play against computer can post their concerns. However insisting to be right if they are not is another thing.

Last edited April 3, 2012 at 6:06 PM by Killar

Oh, maybe you misunderstood my post, my answer for your quote was only this:

QuoteWhat I read in this post, is that if you are a "comp stomper" you lose credibility when posting regardless if what you post is right or wrong.

The next part is just a general comment, not pointed towards any specific user. Yes, there is only one balance and it is achieved by PvP, but you can never know when the skirmish feedback can help you to detect an issue.

Supposing 99.9% of the "comp stompers" opinions are not useful to balance, there is still a "0.01" chance that the input is valid, meaning that we cannot ditch every opinion that comes from these discussions. As long as the chance is not zero, we cannot just discard them.

I apologize if I make you felt I directed that wall of post to you(which wasn't intended).

+1 Bishop

Just out of curiosity, what is the recharge time of a Partisan squad ???. 30seconds? 45? And chances are your Partisan will get stopped before it can do effective dmg to you strat points. You might get 1 or 2 off out of all of this but IMO not that much more. I still stand firm on the belief that Partisans won't FULLY work the way Otto intends, although he is right about the fact they can harass well.

Cat wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what is the recharge time of a Partisan squad ???. 30seconds? 45? And chances are your Partisan will get stopped before it can do effective dmg to you strat points. You might get 1 or 2 off out of all of this but IMO not that much more. I still stand firm on the belief that Partisans won't FULLY work the way Otto intends, although he is right about the fact they can harass well.

They are designed for what Otto has mentioned, however I think he might be blowing it a tad out of proportion. 2 partisan squads is 640 manpower...quite a bit to call in behind enemy lines simultaneously if you don't have a happy army to work with the enemy. They are meant for sabotage and disruption, but you can't gain 90-95% of a map within 2 minutes like stated above...it's just not going to happen. If strategic points are targetted a player's instinct will be to deploy some of his forces there to find the partisans and force a retreat. If he can force a retreat then the whole partisan operation is fried as they lose their position.

We're off topic a tad.

Last edited April 3, 2012 at 10:32 PM by Cranialwizard

QuoteJust out of curiosity, what is the recharge time of a Partisan squad . 30seconds? 45?

It is 40 seconds :).

Cranialwizard wrote:
We're off topic a tad.

Well Otto thinks (I may be wrong) that Urban doesn't get enough attention or credit when it comes to over all strategies and tactics, and has given a strategy on how to halt the enemy using one of the Urban doctrine's call-ins: the Partisan :P. However they aren't AS effective IMO as Otto states. I have never lost a game due to Partisans. In fact I have yet to see  more than 1 or 2 of them. I will probably lose b/c of a Sniper Ace, but not Partisans :P

jojorabbit wrote:

QuoteJust out of curiosity, what is the recharge time of a Partisan squad . 30seconds? 45?

It is 40 seconds :).

Thx ;)

If you have a fortifies defence of axis troops and cant get through Partisans pop out behind the lines and can attack. This is very devestating and one squad will change the game. Also flares will give the firebase the accuracy that it needs to focus a target. Urban doc is very powerful against a campy axis strat (wehr def).

I have not clearly explained again. ::)

1. We all know there is a recharge time between availability of a second call-in.


2. The 1st partizan to arrive camos/holds fire observing the pathing of advancing and retreating troops.


3. some IEDs should be set around the SPs and on the retreat path. Quess what guys? Retreat pathing is controlled by the AI.


4. After the 2nd Partizan deploys and maybe setups an IED.


5. The partizans don't deliberately engage during this period.


6. Both partizans decap and recap if possible. Then move to ambush location. I suggest the ambush take place midway between retreat path and SP.


7. Artillery barrage blob if possible.

The disruption should last at least 2-3 minutes until the enemy gets one SP operational again. This is a guess. If you are getting 200MP/min and the axis is getting zilch it doesn't really matter if you get 640MP or not. You are still ahead of the game and are pretty much able to replace both partizans if they both get into trouble, (Especially when you consider the recharge time between call-ins). My guess is you can repeat the process in 9 minutes or less. There is no real way to time these things in game.

You realize when you say the enemy gets "zilch" they still receive MP. Sure, it might be like 10-12 less but they will still get it and that is ultimately the most important resource. Also Partisian mines aren't that powerful. They are after all, PE incendiary mines. They deal burn damage, not impact damage (like standard mines). And retreating units take less dmg (I think)

And to micro all of this would take a lot of time + resources away from the front lines, leaving you kind of vulnerable. And laying all of those mines would cost a lot of muni :P. Remember, your goal is to dislodge the enemy and take the VPs (assuming that you are losing in this situation, which someone probably would be)

Your point concerning MPs is certainly valid. IIRC (3MP/SP, the total munis and FP of interdicted zones ) x the number of enemy factions in game. Plus the reduction in PoP Cap for each Faction. plus artillery barrage effects on the blob. IED's are long acting incendiaries and just passing through them reduces health quickly. Oh you wouldn't happen to have a squad sitting quietly in wait to attack each passing unit would you? (Excuse the sarcasm. I am not trying to be insulting).

The micro is real but its only two units, 12pop? the rest of your forces can be concentrated doing their thing . If you get into a fire-fight camo/hold fire with partizans until you have breathing room. You don't have to do this every nine minutes or what ever. This tactic is not going to win the game for you. It is a diversion done in a defensive manner. Your blob has to beat the enemy, unless of course you run down the clock. I don't think VPs are interdicted.

And you don't have to do this when your in the hole. It is not I repeat not a strat, is a part of a bigger strategy, I call the technique Soft strategy. It was invented by the Russians and used in Napoleon and Stalin's times. (At least that's what the Russians say).  ;)

Cat Fishy, I'm glad to see you are getting into the spirit of the thing. It is not intended to be a who killed John, You win I lose  proposition. It is called synergy, the sum is greater than its parts. It is one of the ways the weaker can overcome the stronger. It is a tactic called Defencing.

Last edited April 4, 2012 at 2:50 AM by Otto Halfhand

A little back to old post :)

Quote
Standard:
Ing (barracks) - CS - cons X3 - molos - T2a or b

Vehicles:
Ing (barracks) - CS - cons X4 - molos and/or NI as needed - T3 - T90/70s

Fast T2:
Ing X2 (barracks & caps) - CS - con X1-2 - T2 - Strelkyspam

For some test and observations i would like to hear more of these.

Thanks.

2v2 Sniper start:
Ing x2 (build SSB) - T2b - Sniper x2 - either backtech to T1 and get CS/Strelky or get T2a for THs

You will need to spam mines in this build or you won't be able to defend against bikes properly, even with a good teammate.

Thanks.
If i understood you these are:

TH -> Tank Hunters
SSB -> Soviet Support Barracks
CS -> Command Squad
T2b -> Medium Range Support (Enables Zis and sniper)
T2a -> Close Range Support (Enables Mortar and TankHunters)

Last edited April 4, 2012 at 4:19 PM by jojorabbit

jojorabbit wrote:
Thanks.
If i understood you these are:

TH -> Tank Hunters
SSB -> Soviet Support Barracks
CS -> Command Squad
T2b -> Medium Range Support (Enables Zis and sniper)
T2a -> Close Range Support (Enables Mortar and TankHunters)

Precisely!

Quote2v2 Sniper start:
Ing x2 (build SSB) - T2b - Sniper x2 - either backtech to T1 and get CS/Strelky or get T2a for THs

You will need to spam mines in this build or you won't be able to defend against bikes properly, even with a good teammate.

I have a lot of questions :D

Lets say initial BO is:
make 2 x ing
build SSB
T2b
1 x Sniper

So you need some time for that for example 1-2min.

Q1: From that what will you do next?
1x sniper -> why? why not? please specify good reasons.

Q2: Lets say you play vs PE and you know he is going t2 and infantry halftracks.
Will you build 2nd sniper or not? Why? Why not?

Q3: What will make you to decide to go backtech to t1 and get Command Squad + Strelky?
Please Specify reasons vs PE and vs Wehr.

Q4: What will make you to decide to T2a and Tank Hunters.
Please Specify reasons vs PE and vs Wehr.

NOTE: Anyone can answer these questions. I need as much info as possible.

Thanks.

@JoJo: A couple of suggestions upfront for use in your work:

• You need to get a handle on production times. I don't have the resources to do this ATM.


• When considering an elapsed game time analysis  the FP gain rate is critical. 25 FP/min avg. for Wher to start (then 35FP/m,50FP/m for lower order effects). PE is trickier, maybe (25FP/m, 40FP/m, 50FP/m). Sov faction 25FP/m start, (this seems to be a default number).  Sovs 35fp/m 40fp/m 45FP/min seem to be optimum after 5 mins at 25FP/m avg gain. I think the elapsed time increments are 5 minutes;8 minutes; 10min.-SWAG. Again these values are for tech development not production.


• Sov AI build order (observed): ing/ing/T1/4conscripts and one ing.


• Wher AI build order (observed): for T1: VG/MG/MG/sniper two more VG fit in somewhere, probably a conditional probabilty matrix,(CPM).


• Wher AI build order (observed): for T2: ATG/AC/StuG


• PE AI build order 3PG - sometimes a ket shows up -CPM.


• Use normal difficulty for testing. Check your tests on hard. We have to deal with players here not stompers.

I'll get back to you to address your actual questions  :P when life allows.

EDIT: use whole numbers or rational fractions when possible IE 1/4, 1/3, 1/2. you'll recognize them when you see them. decimals to the nth power are only useful for justification to Bosses, Managers, Kibbitzers and other anal retentive types.

Last edited April 6, 2012 at 1:40 PM by Otto Halfhand

Apologies to all who may be baffled by my last post. It was supposed to be a PM to JoJo But postedhere @ maintenance time. I wondered where it went. :-[