v1.6 Tank Riders

I finally got around to checking out the tank riders call-in in v1.6. I am not impressed. In fact I am horribly disappointed that the T34/85 option was dropped. I have never been happy with the Tk vs Tk accuracy of the T34/76 and found I needed two T34/76s to engage in satisfying Tank combat, ie ranged combat. The T34/85 is fine in this regard and I do not mind paying a premium in time and resources to get it. In fact delaying T3 and going straight to the armory upgrade was one of the more enticing aspects of Breakthrough.

I beg you'all please restore the T34/85 tank rider option.

It's too strong a tank to arrive with a complement of guards from off-map. Removing the 85mm option from the Breakthrough callin was a great idea from Paciat to limit the overpoweredness of this ability. It's still very strong but is more vulnerable to Stugs, P4s and other lighter tank options.

What about a more expensive version? Say unlocking the T-34/85 in the tank depot unlocks the respective tank riders call-in? This would give players the option of spending more for better tanks.

That's how it was and was OP.

i think he means that it unlocks a more expensive tank rider call-in...

bopokippo wrote:
i think he means that it unlocks a more expensive tank rider call-in...

and dennis means we had this already

Already had it? I only remember unlocking the 85. Please allow me to clarify, I suggest having the 76 tank riders unlocked normally (by command points). To get 85 tank riders one must unlock tank riders through command points AND unlock the 85 tank in the tank hall. Only when this is done will 85 tank riders be available, and even then they will be quite expensive.

Otto wrote:
I beg you'all please restore the T34/85 tank rider option.

No fucking way. The 85mm upgrade callin was clearly OP not to mention the guards rideing on it. It shouldent return, its stupid being able to upgrade a callin unit like that.

It's cost was rised for testing, don't remember if was part of the public version or only for our internal build, but it was still seen as OP so it was removed.

Maybe when the new models for soviets come, it can be implemented an individual upgrade but atm it is not going to be returned.

Trooper425 wrote:
Please allow me to clarify, I suggest having the 76 tank riders unlocked normally (by command points). To get 85 tank riders one must unlock tank riders through command points AND unlock the 85 tank in the tank hall.

This is what they are trying to say. This idea was already in use. Maybe you played this mod after this concept was removed but having them now is pretty much OP. Especially with their Guards.

topic = answered.

This belongs in Balance Discussion anyway.

I can not believe this crap that the T34/85 tank riders is OP. Are you suggesting the T34/85 itself is OP.

1. Look at all of the other call-in tanks for the EF Theater: Tiger, Tiger II, Panther BG. The T34/85 is OP compared to these tanks?


2. An armory upgrade is necessary to make the T34/85 option available. IIRC this is a unique requirement for a doctrinal call-in. An additional armory upgrade is necessary to give the Shock Gd squad full capabilities.


3. The call-in allows capping like a PE scout car and gives one squad motorized transport at a 30 MP, 90FP discount. Are these the characteristics that make this option OP?


4. Using Breakthrough with a conscript/TH start and mechanics you can be producing T34/85s before you get 6CPs. Using Propaganda and a conscript start you can be producing T34/85s before you get 5 CPs.

If indeed the T34/85 tank riders option is OP, ....then NI at 2CP: 5SVTs, 1.5 capping speed molotovs, no need to produce Strelky, no need to produce THs , no sense in upgrading Shock GDs to 3SVTs, no need for RBS or MAT upgrades, etc. etc. etc ... Is Certainly OP and needs to be seriously addressed.
Topic not answered.  >:(

I have to agree with Otto on this. Having an upgrade-required t-34/85 call-in doesn't seem OP at all.

-Currently the benefit of tank riders is that the tank can cap points. Even an entry lever commander (i.e. me) can move infantry up behind the tank to cap, just like every other faction.
-To get the tank riders on 85s you would have to be able to build 85s already. This is a bigger limit than the current tank riders call-in.
-Calling in 85s is less OP than calling in a Tiger or Panthers (Panthers were DESIGNED to counter t-34s).
-The 85 costs 20mp 10fp more than the 76 from the tank hall.

The presence of the 85 isn't challenged, calling in tank riders on a 76 isn't debated, and the small jump in price from the 76 to the 85 is accepted without complaint. Please explain how a t-34/85 tank riders call-in (requiring the 85mm gun upgrade) is overpowered.

Im under the impression that the 85mm on TRs (Tanks riders abbreviated) is considered OP due its spammablility (not really a real word but you know what I mean). In the long run you could spam alot of these and with their 85mm gun, they could shred through armor and gun down infantry with their new AI Guards, something that a regular 85mm T-34 lacks, AI power. The cappng is not the reason they are so desired or OP, really its the spam. B4 the guards were invulnerable to gunfire as well, making them super tanks. Its like PBG. Expensive as hell to get to but once you start using it more and more, the savings add up :P.

Considering you get a strong actual tank (without the disadvantages of tank destroyers like Hetzers etc.) AND a PPS guard squad at 5cps at a discounted cost and requiring NONE of the normal teching; it is an extremely strong callin. The ability is not intended to replace all production. If you want tanks that can fight everything, tech for it. You should still have to build normal units alongside your callins rather than just spam TRs once you unlock them.

Comparing them to Elefants, Tigers etc. is stupid. 5cps is a world away from 9cps. Compared to the Hetzer, JP4, StuH etc. it is much better because of the addition of a Guard squad. Thus the small cost and CP difference.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Considering you get a strong actual tank (without the disadvantages of tank destroyers like Hetzers etc.) AND a PPS guard squad at 5cps at a discounted cost and requiring NONE of the normal teching; it is an extremely strong callin. The ability is not intended to replace all production. If you want tanks that can fight everything, tech for it. You should still have to build normal units alongside your callins rather than just spam TRs once you unlock them.

Comparing them to Elefants, Tigers etc. is stupid. 5cps is a world away from 9cps. Compared to the Hetzer, JP4, StuH etc. it is much better because of the addition of a Guard squad. Thus the small cost and CP difference.

And this is the reasoning we used to remove the 85mm option. (Isn't it 4cps Dennis?) Even if you do have to tech to it, it's still Over powered/

To add, with the 85mm option you could effectively spam the Tank Riders and have a viable counter to Panthers and other tanks (I'd go as far to say Tigers in numbers) and Infantry with the PPS-Guards. All of this for 4cps (5?). Aint no way in hell that's coming back under the current circumstances.

Last edited April 2, 2012 at 10:41 AM by Cranialwizard

You don´t need a tankhall, Heavy tankovy and schockguards to get all these weapons. In addition the call in which are late game units comes far earlier in about mid game (5 CP is about stuh or hetzer).

Obviously this is too strong.

Last edited April 2, 2012 at 3:25 PM by Killar

@Cranial
I think they mean Inspired Speech(1) + Tank Riders(4). Because as the tree tech is progressive, you can count the father node as part of the cost to get the child.

Cranial, the reasons you have given for removing the 85 TR option SEEMS to be logical. The notion that you can SPAM this call-in is faulty. The reason is the high 8 Pop/Gd squad requirement. Spamming a 16 POP call-in is a ludicrous proposition. 3 call-ins of TRs cost 48 pop, (2250 MP); 48 pop can be compared to ~ half of the Pop Cap in a game...
(Remember, the Sov Pop Cap Limit displays as being 7 pop higher/conscript squad deployed, than it actually is. IE the Sov Pop Cap display would indicate up to 35 pop higher than it actually is. Confusing in the heat of battle, but a very clever solution to displaying Conscript squad sizes)...
[email redacted]: To call this spam is pushing the use of the word. Consider 48 pop as an NI spam. 8 NI squads, 48 pop, (2880 MP). Now that is not only Spam but SPAMELOT! Talk about shredding axis tanks and infantry with that blob...

I am not convinced the 85 TR option is OP. I think the problem associated with Tank Riders (generic), lies in the cost discounts. As Dennis indicated you get a good tank with the T34/76; but it is only ~=to StuGs and inferior to Wher T4. You'all know this. It is a Balancing Issue. You'all discounted the call-in cost by making it cheaper than "producing" T34's of all flavors to compensate for it; in effect begging players to SPAM it.
I view this discounting costs for a call-in as a structural flaw in the Sov Doctrinal design process. The 85 TR option serves to only highlight this flaw. All other call-ins introduce unique units into the game. The call-in costs are higher than the costs associated with buildable equivalent units. The tank Rider call-in introduces a unique concept/ability into the game utilizing buildable units to do so. And does so at a discounted price, (counter to the vCOH system). A similar type flaw existed the Nashorn call-in prior to v1.6. A FP premium was added to the call-in price. The problem with the Premium/Discount business is that it fucks with game mechanics in an unpredictable manner. The sandbox lot see it as balancing problem; which from their perspective it is. I suggest you play with the call-in costs a liitle more before you consign 85 TR to the trashbin. The Propaganda NI 2CP call-in is another manifestation of this type of flaw. It is too low for EF. but Balanced vs vCOH 2CP storms. In this case the root of the problem is not EF's but Relics. The 2CP Storms is what is OP, and fucks with the game mechanics. Relic has chosen not to correct it, (although it could be easily done). :(

The whole mess is a thorny business.

Trooper425 wrote:
I have to agree with Otto on this. Having an upgrade-required t-34/85 call-in doesn't seem OP at all.

-Currently the benefit of tank riders is that the tank can cap points. Even an entry lever commander (i.e. me) can move infantry up behind the tank to cap, just like every other faction.
-To get the tank riders on 85s you would have to be able to build 85s already. This is a bigger limit than the current tank riders call-in.
-Calling in 85s is less OP than calling in a Tiger or Panthers (Panthers were DESIGNED to counter t-34s).
-The 85 costs 20mp 10fp more than the 76 from the tank hall.

The presence of the 85 isn't challenged, calling in tank riders on a 76 isn't debated, and the small jump in price from the 76 to the 85 is accepted without complaint. Please explain how a t-34/85 tank riders call-in (requiring the 85mm gun upgrade) is overpowered.

+1

BTW In game what does T34/76 counter

Snugz wrote:

Otto wrote:
I beg you'all please restore the T34/85 tank rider option.

No fucking way. The 85mm upgrade callin was clearly OP not to mention the guards rideing on it. It shouldent return, its stupid being able to upgrade a callin unit like that.

The tone of your reply is is inflammatory. It obscures the relevance of your message. Review:

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3161.msg107366#msg107366

And consider using Spell Check.

@Blackbishop you understand my use of total CP cost to obtain a particular Callin. That is why 6CP was cited for T34/85 production times in previous post, 1CP mechanics had to be added to the equation.

Last edited April 2, 2012 at 4:22 PM by Otto 213

@Dennis & Killar: I think you missed the entire point of my argument. I suggested only allowing 85 TRs at a time when you could build 85s normally. That takes a good amount of teching. If you are super concerned about spamming and don't think the fact that they are expensive would solve that, just put a limit on TRs, say 3. Force TRs to fight alongside normal tanks. I can understand your issues with PPSH infantry riding on the tanks, but that should be an issue with the current TR call-in (and it's not). IMO the whole point of TRs should be that they are a support option for armor players. Grab a few tanks, put a TR beside it, everything works out. There are easy ways to avoid TR spam, and I want TRs to be an alternative to the tanks themselves, not a cheaper, better, earlier version. Yes, I agree, that would be stupid. I know that call-ins can be limited by your tech, so I honestly think TRs should not be available until the tank they're riding on is. I would rest easy, though, knowing that you can't get 85 TRs until you can get 85s though.

you guy should keep in mind that even if you need a research this would mean you can get your main battle tank always without fuel cost + there is always an late game elite unit included

im mean im talking about an unit which requires tank hall (but you dont need the tank hall at all for this strategy

instead of this oyu can also save the fuel you saved on tanks for inf upgrades
just think about it if you could always call in upgund upgraded shermans with americans without fuel
so even if your fuel income is nearly 0 its not a problem for you

think about it and im sure you will agree that its not a good idea to add the 85mm TR again

Otto wrote:

Snugz wrote:

Otto wrote:
I beg you'all please restore the T34/85 tank rider option.

No fucking way. The 85mm upgrade callin was clearly OP not to mention the guards rideing on it. It shouldent return, its stupid being able to upgrade a callin unit like that.

The tone of your reply is is inflammatory. It obscures the relevance of your message. Review:

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3161.msg107366#msg107366

And consider using Spell Check.

First off all, English isn't his first language.  Everyone else can understand him except for you, and no one else has been QQing about his language.  Don't be a Grammar Nazi.

Second of all, L2P before you request a balance change.  This wasn't a border-line issue; the 85 TR was clearly too OP for its price.

Well, in either case, T-34/85 is not going to come back any time soon, so I'll lock this topic.