Suggestion for Skirmish mode

Hello. It's possible to create an "only infantry mode" match, also an "only light vehicles mode" woul be great, for the skirmish game? I mean something like the option "no population limit" that is already included.

We have had these suggestions before. It wouldn't work in skirmish, but it would be good in another gametype.

Sorry, i just found the other post

Actually it would be possible :P.

The only infantry mode would be fun but to unbalaced. :'(

Which is why i said it needs to be another gametype. ;)

I'm all for it, and see no problem with it. Unfortunately, I wouldn't have a clue where to start, and it is probably Rizz who is best equipped.

It's a long time we saw you on forum, WartyX  :)

It would be easy to balance, I think - just make each faction squads belong to one of groups, like engiennering units, combat units, elites, support, etc. And add a hardcap for MGs, Mortars and Snipers. I'd also add to every faction 2nd retreat point and only 1 Field HQ avilable to build.

Second retreat point to where?

One reason that this can not be done is because it destroys doctrines. When you have a "Infantry Only" mode it suddenly destroys doctrines like Tank Destroyer, Allied Armor, and Royal Engineers.

That's why there are operations. IMO it would be nice to see a counterpart to Operation Panzerkrieg. Some WW1-like stuff. Trenchers, trenches, mortars, MGs, grenades and even more trenches.

pariah wrote:
Second retreat point to where?

To some sort of officer or important unit, where else?

I would implement a Sargent for the Amis, make him like the Command unit, give bonuses to Soldiers, a doctrinal ability, and perhaps some sort of Arty call down like the German Officer's Mortars, but that's it for abilities, he isn't quite as Intimidating nor as Experienced to perform any more powerful actions (I.E. the Force Retreat), but he is Second Retreat Point for Amis.

The Wehr have a more skilled Officer so he gets Force Retreat, as well as his lovely Mortars and some sort of doctrinal ability. Add the Second Retreat Point Capability and perhaps some kind of buff for the Wehr Inf that are close, but not really a necessity.

The Brits have 2 Officers and I would keep them the way they are, but give the Captain some new abilities, depending on the doctrine.

The PE should get a super mobile Commander to fit in with them being the Storming Faction perhaps some kind of Oberstleutnant in a Kubelwagen, but make sure his Second Retreat Point isn't instantly available, otherwise people will just send him into the enemy base and retreat a bunch of Assault Grenadiers into it. I would give him a Speed increase and Suppression Reduction aura, and Firestorm Bombardment (make it expensive though, can't be spammin' that), and some kind of doctrine specific abilities.

Cranial, as for your qualm, this is easily changeable, since technically Blitz becomes quite flawed too, and the easiest thing to is just change up the Doctrines, to something more usable for each faction, and change up some other stuff, such as the Tiger Ace in Terror, to some thing else (Maybe some kind of KCH Ace), the Para's AT gun (maybe dropping a Tommygun equipped Para squad) and changing up some roles (make the American Rangers an Elite AI squad instead of AT squad or the Wirblewind into a Fallschirmjäger Sharpshooter)

Then again if this is an operation then we won't really need Officers, just tons of trenches, would get quite campy and in my eyes boring. Truthfully what you suggested, Maxi, sounds like Operation Assault.

Off-map point, forward barracks, whatever. I dunno. ::)

This wouldn't work very well if you're going to keep the armies split - You need to merge them into simple Allies and Axis, otherwise there are too few units (particularly for the Panzer Elite).

I agree with Pariah. Make infantry only an allies and axis thing to even out the troop choices.

HQ (pios, engies, LT, CPT, CS?, Leutnant)
Building 1 allows T1 infantry (rifles, tommies, conscripts,  volks/landser, MG42, PGs, jeep/bike)
Building 2 allows WSC units and T2 infantry (grens, strelky, SAS, bren carrier, PG assault squads, MGs, mortars, snipers)
Building 3 is T3/4 infantry and top tier upgrades (Guards, KCH)

You could have either an extra armoury building that gives upgrades or put them into these 3 buildings somewhere. You would have to work out a compromise for vet.

Doctrines are British/American/Soviet and Wehrmacht/PE/OH and allow various callins. Some suggestions:

Brits - Commandos, commando arty, FOO, HQ glider, strafe
Amis - Paras, rangers, 105 barrage, OMCG, supply drop,
Sov - Red Tide, NI, FTML, GoW, flare, NOSB, partisans

Wehr - unlocks bunkers, firestorm, rocket barrage, stormies, assault nades, FTFL, inspired assault, blitzkrieg
PE - sector arty, booby traps, LGF, falls, butterfly bombs,
OH - brandenburgers, foreign troops, other stuff...

Last edited August 6, 2011 at 1:49 AM by GodlikeDennis

Yes, the map itself should be littered with green cover, like an urban map and infantry should damage each other more in combat so that it feels a tad bit realistic.

Ermm... You do realize infantry-only means no vehicles, right Dennis? ::)

Jeeps and bikes are necessary, otherwise snipers would be stupidly OP. Bren I threw in there for flavour. Maybe disable the upgun and just use it as a troop carrier. It's not like it's difficult to kill.

I don't think so. If you have the right troops (say, Rangers with Thompsons and their Fire-Up) Snipers shouldn't be too hard to deal with. I really don't like the idea vehicles being in an infantry gametype.

Snipers are the counter to rangers, not the other way around. Well microed snipers are EXTREMELY difficult to kill. Entire games revolve around snipers quite often and that's in normal gametypes.

But we are talking about infantry only mode. You could nerf the snipers by reducing rate of fire and health so that they fall in line with other infantry.

Rangers are a great counter to Snipers, man. The Sniper will only kill 1 guy, give his position away, and the other 5 Rangers can Fire-Up and run in with Thompsons. The Sniper will retreat or die.

I'm not sure what changes we would make to the various unit stats and upgrades. I'm sure we could get it well balanced without adding vehicles.

I see absolutely no problem with adding bikes and jeeps. Brens are debatable, the other 2 barely count as vehicles.

Snipers are the counter to elite troops. Don't try to say otherwise mate.

I would hardly consider Rangers "elite troops". Officers and Knights Cross Holders are well countered by Snipers. 6 Guys in a squad? No, i don't think so...

The only debatable units are the heavier weapons teams, such as A-T Guns and Nebelwerfers. The weapons themselves are classified as heavy vehicles, but they are also weapons teams, so it's debatable whether they should be included or not. Light vehicles, though? I think they're entirely vehicles, mate. ;)

Weapon teams should be included but as NPCs. Units can call in arty support from them.

It takes much longer to snipe and kill a 3 man KCH squad than a Ranger squad. Trust me, snipers are intended to counter rangers.

Bikes and jeeps should definitely be included to counter snipers, or I guarantee you entire games will revolve around sniper spam. As it is, they'll already be extremely popular.

I don't see a reason to include AT guns at all.

Nebels and other arty don't really belong either unless they're available with guards/KCH in the final tier building.

Knights Cross Holder squads takes 6 hits to kill, just like Rangers. So unless there's some accuracy modifier with those units, they should go down at about the same rate, but Rangers can Fire-Up and charge the Sniper, so they should fair better.

I guess including the lightest of the light vehicles couldn't hurt, so long as everybody's fine with it, and there are no other vehicles. You should probably make them doctrinal, though, if there are to be doctrines.

A-T Guns, Nebelwerfers, and any other arty (including Mortars) will come in handy against buildings. I'm not sure what sort of buildings we would use, though. We could make A-T Guns and such doctrinal as well, although they wouldn't get much use, so that's probably not a good idea. I dunno... :-\

Hans shoots faster than the boogyman.

+1 to Dennis. In most cases, you build two Snipers if you want to take that way to take out enemy infantry. If they are well micro'd, you will get 4 kills before the Ranger squad can even fire a bullet at your Snipers. If you don't attack them with a blob, there is no chance to get close to the Snipers and effectively harm them. What's left is the retreat for the Rangers. So just produce a Jeep, it is much faster and can't be destroyed by even a bunch of Sniper shots.
That's why a Jeep/Bike is vital

Why stop at 2? I built about 6 vet 3 wehr snipers in a game just today against Killar and Cranial.

It was just an example for a number to start with. One Sniper won't have a huge impact, whilst 2 or even 6 like you say are far more effective and a pain in the ass for the opponent :P

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Hans shoots faster than the boogyman.

...What? You mean the Wehrmacht Sniper shoots faster than the American 1? I never noticed that. ???

Spamming Snipers is never really a good idea, in my experience. They cost so much, and are so fragile. The more you have, the more you need to split your micro, meaning the more likely you are to lose 1...

pariah wrote:
Spamming Snipers is never really a good idea, in my experience. They cost so much, and are so fragile. The more you have, the more you need to split your micro, meaning the more likely you are to lose 1...

Of course it's a good idea. With some micro, you can take out an enemy infantry squad in about two seconds. That requires a certain amount of attention and skill though to keep them alive. And remember to not just select all Snipers and right click on the enemy squad, they will all attack the same guy. Cycle through them and assign a different squad member to every Sniper.

Yes Hans fires faster to make up for greater American squad sizes. Good players will very rarely lose snipers unless to bad luck. I lost 3 to killar's Soviet mortar barrages today but none to actual combat...

2 snipers are practically required against good grenspamming opponents. They're a staple of high level play.

I'll never forget a game i had a very long time ago on Lyon - I was Wehrmacht, i built a Sniper, and sent him to attack-move towards the enemy base. He got not too far away from the base, and there was absolutely no enemy units around. I feared a Jeep would come out of nowhere, so i retreated my Sniper back to base. Not too far away from my base, there was a fucking Jeep, and it killed my poor Sniper in 1 volley, before he even got a chance to fire his rifle! I always hated Snipers since then... >:(

pariah wrote:
I'll never forget a game i had a very long time ago on Lyon - I was Wehrmacht, i built a Sniper, and sent him to attack-move towards the enemy base. He got not too far away from the base, and there was absolutely no enemy units around. I feared a Jeep would come out of nowhere, so i retreated my Sniper back to base. Not too far away from my base, there was a fucking Jeep, and it killed my poor Sniper in 1 volley, before he even got a chance to fire his rifle! I always hated Snipers since then... >:(

Sorry mate, but that's not the way Snipers are meant to be treated :P

Well obviously i didn't want him to get killed on retreat by the fucking Jeep. ::)

I rather meant the way you sent him directly trough the enemy lines. Was he guarded in any way? Did you know what was there when you sent him? Anyway that's OT.
So I'd say because Brits and Allies are mixed as well as Wehr and PE, each of them should get an anti Sniper vehicle (Jeep for Allies and Bike for Axis).

I didn't intend to sent him behind the lines, like he's some kind of Commando or anything; Just sending him forward to attack and gain ground, just like with any other unit. I always spread out my units, to take us much ground as possible.

Anyways, i think it would be alright to have the lightest of the vehicles (no Bren Carriers!), but that means we can't call it an infantry-only gametype.

You could also just delete the Sniper..

No, Snipers are important for an infantry gametype. Vehicles, however, are not...

They are in this particular gametype as stated many times now. They are a vital counter to Snipers. They are even so small that they won't cause any attention ;)

1 Of the main things i love about Company Of Heroes is the relationship between the units. Infantry with A-T weapons, vehicles with A-I weapons; It's a large part of the game. No vehicles means no (or little) A-T, and the only A-I is in infantry. I think it's best like that. How can you say an infantry-only mode can be without Snipers, and it can have vehicles?!

I think you misunderstand me. I meant either Sniper and Bike and Jeep or leave outboth.

But those vehicles counter other weapons teams as well, such as Heavy Machine Guns and Mortars.

Maybe we could just put a limit on how many of them you can have? Make things much easier... :P

pariah wrote:
But those vehicles counter other weapons teams as well, such as Heavy Machine Guns and Mortars.

Maybe we could just put a limit on how many of them you can have? Make things much easier... :P

Both of those light vehicles have paper armour. Just one Volks squad can easily defeat a Jeep.
A limit of two or three would be good though, also a fuel cost of 5 or something like that.

Sorry, allow me to clarify: I meant put a limit on how many Snipers (and maybe other weapons teams) you can have, to avoid the need to add light vehicles.

pariah wrote:
Sorry, allow me to clarify: I meant put a limit on how many Snipers (and maybe other weapons teams) you can have, to avoid the need to add light vehicles.

+111111!

That's also a nice idea.

Maybe they could be doctrinal as well? You could have a long-range doctrine, which gives you Snipers and Mortars,and a short-range doctrine, which gives you sub-machine gun upgrades and such?

It becomes too much of an investment in countersnipers in an attempt to countersniper such a massive grouping of 4-6 snipers like that so you really do not have much of a choice but using some type of tank or light vehicle (Ost, P4, M8, Stuart w/ Canister, P4AI, AC's or Pumas.) escorted by recon units in an effort to effectively search and destroy.

Any sane player will have any amount of snipers backed with infantry. (Good players will have them backed with AT Infantry too) So sometimes arty has to be the answer.