Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?

Okey. First of all. Skip the flamewar boys. This is just a question and if we are going to debate I want common sense and nice friendly tones to each other.

Thank you ! <3

We are not suppost to talk about if Wehrmacht was better than the SS or anything like that. We are not going to even mention the word fascist, nazi, commi or fag. I Just want to get it clear which one they are based one. XD

Now to the point. Where ever I go on the internet. I always see somebody saying that PE is the waffen SS but with a familyfriendly name :3 Now I want to get this clear. Is PE the Waffen SS?

I got some notes here.

* They call themself kampgruppe Lehr. There was a Panzer Lehr in the wehrmacht. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_Lehr_Division

*Hans Voss the commander of kampgruppe lehr is having SS insignias on his tabs. (Kind of farfetched.)

*They have the Hotschkiss panzer. I read somewhere about something like Rommels circus? A wehr unit in normandy mostly equipped with captured vechicles and stuff.

*The PE foot soldiers are all wearing camo. camo was much more common in the waffen ss than the wehr.

*They are called Panzer elit XD Everybody always seems to see the waffen SS as the elite of the third reich? ( We are not going to discuss that here.)

So. Entertain me fellow forum members! <3

Ghost Division. ;)

Anyone can answer this question at the moment.

Out of my view Kampfgruppe Lehr could be a mix out of the different Kampfgruppen that were positioned in the Netherlands. This Kampfgruppen were training units for new soldiers. This Kampfgruppen were bad equipped.
All in all they are - like Panzer elite - a mixed formation where u could everything and anything ;)

BUT one point is clear: it isnt germanys elite division Panzer-Lehr ;)

More interesting question is how got relic get the idea of implementing the bergetiger? Its still not clear if it was designed to recover damaged tanks at all

But this is another topic

Just to clarify, "lehr" means to teach, right?

pariah wrote:
Just to clarify, "lehr" means to teach, right?

Yes :P, and lehrer means teacher, i wonder how many teachers were there, remember Rommel was(iirc).

Last edited June 29, 2011 at 3:07 PM by blackbishop

Thought so. I always wondered if the Panzer Lehr was some kind of training regiment, or just a name...

Yeah, i know "lehrer" means "teacher". That's how i worked that out. ;)

teachers of the nazi ideology!  :P

Yeah, i guess, but i think learning to fight is more important that learning what you're fighting for. ;)

RedGuard wrote:
teachers of the nazi ideology!  :P

dont mix the wehrmacht with the political army which was the waffen SS

The word "Lehr" of the Kampfgruppe Lehr can mean "to teach" or it is the name of the commander.
Lot of this improvised "Kampfgruppen" were named by their commanding officer. Perhaps Relic had some names and perhaps they had changed or modified one of those names ;)

Thanks for the info, mate. So is the Panzer Elite somehow related to the Afrika Korps?

QuoteThe Panzer Elite faction, called the Kampfgruppe Lehr, draws its inspiration from the mish-mash of German units that opposed Operation Market Garden, including the 2nd SS Panzer Corps and Luftwaffe paratroopers.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_of_Heroes:_Opposing_Fronts

Cool, thanks for that, walki.

There is no way they are SS. They have almost all obsolete equipment compared to Wehr. They are just meant to be the German forces defending Holland.

Their dark purple in-game flag looks awfully similar to the actual SS one, and they actually do have better infantry equipment than Wehr, such as being able to equip each man with Mp44s.  I think they ARE SS, its just Relic was trying to be politically correct.

The weapons they r using arent especially for SS. Read what rommel wrote

Politically correct? No, i think they have something to do with the Afrika Korps... I don't think they are very related to the SS, except of course for the fact they are all National Socialists.

I always thought Strumtruppen were suppose to be SS infantry.

I don't think so. The Blitzkrieg Doctrine doesn't have much grounds in history, anyway. ;)

vonklaus wrote:
There is no way they are SS. They have almost all obsolete equipment compared to Wehr. They are just meant to be the German forces defending Holland.

Well. The two SS-Division (9. und 10. SS-PzDivision) were badly equipped. Both divisions had fought in Normandy. Both division had high casualties- Both divisions had lost a lot of material and weapons. C. Ryan said that just most of the SPW (Schützenpanzerwagen - armoured halftracks) had survived the last battles. Most of the tanks and wheeled trucks were lost during the last battles. That e.g. the reason why both division got some Panzer III Ausf. J and N as reinforcement. So u cant talk about "well equipped SS-troops" when u talk about the 9. and 10. SS.-PzDiv. during Operation Market Garden.

Pariah, not every member of the WM, and it's subdivisions are members of the Nazi part

vonklaus wrote:
There is no way they are SS. They have almost all obsolete equipment compared to Wehr. They are just meant to be the German forces defending Holland.

Like LordRommel said, by the time the SS were defending the Netherlands, they lost a good portion of their equipment.
Also, Market Garden did not fight in Holland, they fought in the Netherlands. Holland is a part of the Netherlands, and not the entire country. Just like England is not the same as Britain, Great Britain, or the United Kingdom, Holland is not the same as the Netherlands.

Tico_1990 wrote:
Pariah, not every member of the WM, and it's subdivisions are members of the Nazi part

Hmm, i'm no expert on that time period, but didn't everybody in the German military have to swear allegiance to Hitler? :-\

pariah wrote:

Tico_1990 wrote:
Pariah, not every member of the WM, and it's subdivisions are members of the Nazi part

Hmm, i'm no expert on that time period, but didn't everybody in the German military have to swear allegiance to Hitler? :-\

Probably, but that doesn't mean that they were real nazi!

Hmm, so if i was to pledge allegiance to Hitler right now, you wouldn't think of me as a Nazi? How does that work? ???

pariah wrote:
Hmm, so if i was to pledge allegiance to Hitler right now, you wouldn't think of me as a Nazi? How does that work? ???

Finland for instance. They were IIIR allies, but they weren't nazis at all. Enemy of my enemy is my ally.

What part of the Lowlands constitutes Holland? I am Pennsylvania Dutch, German, Alsatian and Holland Dutch. This is a necessary distinction in PA because all Colonists who spoke German languages were considered Dutch. Swedes and Swiss are included but Jews speaking Yiddish are not. Should I refer to myself a lowland Dutch or what?

Holland are two provinces (north and south holland), they are two out of twelve provinces, Holland are the provinces in the west of the Netherlands.

yes every soldier in the wehrmacht had to swear allegiance to hitler, not just the SS

RedGuard wrote:
yes every soldier in the wehrmacht had to swear allegiance to hitler, not just the SS

Again, pledging allegiance to Hitler did not make you a nazi party member.

You're still a National Socialist, man. You still support that ideology by going to war and fighting for it.

pariah wrote:
You're still a National Socialist, man. You still support that ideology by going to war and fighting for it.

Or you just dont have the choice, because you and your family are threatened. You aren't obliged to commit war crime though.

cephalos wrote:
Finland for instance. They were IIIR allies, but they weren't nazis at all. Enemy of my enemy is my ally.

Finland's non-belligerance is a myth. Finns executed a lot of people, and let much of their remaining prisonner (civil or soldier) starve to death. Moreover, their was a high number of finnish volunteers in the SS (more than its commonly accepted today, even in a liberal country like Finland). And even Finnish "ultimate" goals weren't too far from nazi ideology: razing St-Petersburg, and starve/deport all slavian population from the Greater Finland area.

Still, it doesn't mean that every finn is a convinced nazi, but people who present Finland like an angel fighting against the evil commie (not you Cephalos! you are at least rather objective) make me laugh  :P


About topic ;D , I think we should listen to LordRommel ^^
My opinion is that PE could represent SS, but also element of the Heer. But as Relic never really answered this question, we are going to debate this for a long time I suppose !

The idea that you are forced to go to war is, quite honestly, idiotic.

Back on topic, though, i think you are right; The Panzer Elite isn't likely based on anything specific in history. I still wonder what it has to do with the Afrika Korps, though...

-Children Children..! (volksgrenadiers squad leader voice!)

What did I say in the first post. No argumenting over nazis or SS or wehrmacht and all that. Hell, Some of you even seem to be discussing geografic? XD

Its about the PE. And thanks everybody for the info! :D
I dont know though what to believe myself. I think I will go with COHwikis ;P

So, Now I got my ansver. You cute boys continue your debats, its fun as hell to read XD

"Stop touching me!" ;D

Well, if somebody could please clear up this whole Panzer Elite/Afrika Korps thing, it would be much appreciated...

Now when you say it Pariah its actually quite intreesting to found out where this Afrika korps rumours is coming from XD

-looks like we are up for a mystery Scoob!

Where did it start? Did somebody say - Well, PE are former Afrika korps units.
I dont know. Discuss! <3

As you could probably tell by the second post in this topic, i figured this had something to do with it:
Sabaton - Ghost Division Video
I don't know shit about history, but i think this is about Rommels Afrika Korps. Please correct me if i'm wrong. :-\

Now I see. I think you are mixing up that part Blackbishop mention about Rommel.
He was refering to that Rommel was a teacher.

Or did my detective work got fuckd up big time here? XD
( fuck you LA NOIRE! FUCK YOU.)

and no. That video is about Operation Barbarrosa. The invasion of Soviet ^^ I think, I didnt listen to the music sorry XD I just got my new Perfume cd and was rocking that out ;>
( Yes. the japanese girl pop band.)

Last edited July 1, 2011 at 12:03 AM by Sommarkatze

Barbarossa, ey? How did you find that out?

Well the little bit of the song I actually heard was the invasion has begun XD And In the video there are mostly tanks from that era.

The video doesn't matter - It's fan-made, so it doesn't necessarily fit the song perfectly.

Here's the lyrics:

QuoteGhost Division Lyrics

Fast as the wind
The Invasion has begun
Shaking the ground
With a force of 1000 guns

First in the line of fire
First into hostile land
Tanks leading the way
Leading the way

Charging the lines with a force of a furious storm
Fast as the lightning phantom's swarm
200 miles at nightfall taken within a day
Thus earning their name, earning their fame

They are the Panzer Elite
Born to compete
Never retreat
(Ghost Division)
Living or dead
Always ahead
Fed by your dread

Always ahead as the Blitzkrieg rages on
Breaking morale with the sound of blazing guns

First in the line of fire
First into hostile land
Tanks leading the way
Leading the way

Leaving a trail of destruction through a foreign land (Waging war with conviction)
Massive assault to serve the Nazi plan (Wehrmacht's pride ghost division)
Communication's broken
Panzers are far away
Thus earning their name, earning their fame

They are the Panzer Elite
Bound to compete
Never retreat
(Ghost Division)
Living or dead
Always ahead
Fed by your dread

Pushing the frontline forth with a tremendous force (far ahead, breaks resistance)
Crushing the way for Panzer Corps (shows no fear, self-subsistence)
First in the line of fire
First into hostile land
Tanks leading the way
Claiming the fame

They are the Panzer Elite
Bound to compete
Never retreat
(Ghost Division)
Living or dead
Always ahead
Fed by your dread

Panzer Elite
Bound to compete
Never retreat
(Ghost Division)
Living or dead
Always ahead
Fed by your dread

Hmm. I really dont know. But I would say yes. Its for Operation Barberossa.

Well, maybe the famous historian Lord Rommel can clear this up...

The Ghost division was the name given to Erwin Rommel's panzer division during the invasion of France. They moved so fast that even German high command didn't always know where Rommel was, hence the name "Ghost division".
As for what the panzer elite represents, given the missions that you fight with it, I'd go with what has been said earlier in the thread, they represent the forces who are defending the Netherlands (specifically, the area of Market Garden, so that would be the Eastern part, centred around Arnhem).

...But i thought general Rommel operated in Africa? ???

He operated in both France and Africa :3
Hm. This means I was wrong about the song. DAMN :C

He first fought during the invasion of the Netherlands, Belgium and France. He was redeployed to Africa, but when the Africa Korps was beaten, he was again redeployed, this time to France to defend the Atlantic wall (which is the line of defences at the French coast), which as you might know was defeated in this little thing called D-Day.

Rommel has a real interesting story from rise to fall I recommend spending a few minutes reading it. Shame his alternate universe self migrated to the USA in T-191 or the South might have won the 4th Civil War.

pariah wrote:
...But i thought general Rommel operated in Africa? ???

He operated in Africa. But before that he commanded a tank division in france, the(if i remember it right) 7. Panzerdivision. This was the Gespensterdivision or Ghost Division.

From my point of view the PE Faction represents generic KampfGruppen,  regardless of their TO&E,  OKW affiliation or political associations. PE does not deal exclusively with Market Garden but also with The Normandy Campaign (around St Lo and Caen in CoH and OF) and Remagen (CoH).

The poem cited below almost certainly refers to THe Ghost Division of 1940.  Rommel was particularly known for relentless advances and for being out of communications. He frequently broke his LOC deliberately when he received an order he wished to circumvent. 200 miles in a day? Poetic licence. Maybe the MC battalion could do 200 miles in a day but no other equipment had near that range of operation. Eight hours in the saddle would most certainly hurt the Heinies Hineys big time as well.

1. Panzer Lehr: A teaching and demonstration unit. I agree with Lord Rommel's assertion about Lehr being a commander but how found no documentation to support this. Panzer Lehr is frequently referred to as an Elite Unit. Given its hodge podge of equipment and success in combat this designation is dubious. Lehr WAS one of the hardest fighting units on the western front. It was  broken up into KampfGruppe organizations time and again: In Normandy, Market Garden and Wacht am Rhein: where three different "Lehr" KGs faced off against the 2nd Armor, (Dinant), 28th Inf,(Goose Egg), 101st Airborne, (Bastogne) and 4th Armor, (Werden). THe commander of Lehr until 6/7/1944  and during the Bulge was Fritz Bayerlein. Commander of the DAK at Alam al Halfa, 8/31/42.


2. "Rommel's Circus": I have never come across this term Sommarkatze but I believe it must refer to Rommel's tenure as Commander of Army Group B in France 1944. Many of the units in Normandy in early 1944 were 2nd rate Garrison troops and Battered Line units. Garrison units were frequently comprised of foreign nationals equipped with obsolete weaponry. Units reassigned from the Eastern Front most often left their Heavy Equipment behind. LordRommel mentioned the decimated SS divisions in Normandy and Market Garden. Of course nobody would consider the 12 SS and Michael Wittman 2nd Rate. (No Tigers in PE though). Much of the TO&E for the units in Normandy during June and July of 1944 was captured equipment. Some like the French R35s were overdue to be "gotten rid of". Some however:

1. The 21st Panzer division should be included in Rommel's Circus. Originally sent to North Africa as a collection of Ad Hoc units, (aka KampfGruppen).  It was brought up to strength and renamed the 21st Panzer Division. Perhaps the most famous German Division of the war. The leader of the Recce battalion Von Luck  was a master of Kampfgruppe tactics. He  employed his AC's in conjunction with the 88s of the Flak Battalion to devastating effect time and again. As the rear guard of the DAK after El Alamein he can be credited with saving the Africa Korps in the long march to Tunisia. The Africa Korps (Panzer Armee Afrika), surrendered  May 15(?) 1943.


2. The 21st Panzer was reorganized in France July 15, 1943. It was in the Normandy sector in MAy 1944.  At that time its TO&E was mostly captured French equipment: H35's, H39s and Lorraines. There were 2-3 companies of Pz IIIs and Pz IVs,(31 total). The only organic unit of the Division was the Flak Battalion(sic): It contained 3 Kos of 88s mounted on HTs, (There is a reward unit for you); 2 Kos of Sdkh 10/20mm and two battalions of Hummels. On D-Day the 21st Panzer was the only Panzer Division to engage the Allies on D-Day. KampfGruppe VonLuck nearly drove the Commonwealth Forces into the sea. It is said that Rommel himself supervised the action. I believe he was out of country at his wife's birthday party.
   

Well Sommarkatze; thats my take on what the PE faction is supposed to represent. I hope it was entertaining.