EF_V2.1.* The 38T?

It has been stated that the EFMod will only have 4 reward units, 1 for each of the vCoH factions. It has been stated that Wehrmacht will get an additional reward unit making  5. Thus far the Soviet faction has 3/(4) reward units And PE was given 2 rewards units. II wish to propose a third PE reward unit, in place of the ATHT, the Skoda 38TF.

The PE Faction was designed for use in vCoH_OF not EF. There is no light tank available to PE.  The neutral  unit in T4 is ATHT. It works in OF, but has demonstrated limitations against Sov Light Tankovy. What chance does it have against the T34/76 or reward KV1?
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=6120.0;topicseen

The 38T, PzIII_D-H  and PzIV_D were the principle tanks used by the Wehrmacht until the Germans encountered the T34/76 and KVs. The only counter the Wehrmacht had was the Flak 36/88mm, (vCoH doctrinal call-in ). One tactic the PzIIIs and 38Ts used to halt the Sovs was to knock out the running gear . Another tactic was to disable the gun. Mantle shots proved ineffective but shooting holes in the barrel of enemy tanks worked! (See picture of KV1, Panzer Aces, Stackpole Books, p.91. Herman Bix's  account tells of his gunner holing the barrel of a T/34 three times in three consecutive shots!

Modeling notes:

1. The chassis of the 38T was used for the Hetzer.


2. The 38T_F  and PzIII_J are similar to animate. The principal differences being the 37mm/L47 main armament and 38T is slightly faster than PzIII.


3. The effective range of the 37mm/L47 is 1500m, 35mm penetration at 500m, 24mm @ 1500m. The effective range cited for SdKfz 250/10 37mm is cited at 5484m but penetration is 28mm @500m.


4. The 38Ts MGs were swivel ball mounts rather than fixed coaxial and were more effective against infantry/light vehicles than their German made counterparts.

Ability: Focus fire
Ability: Tread breaker.  Destroy main weapon critical at offensive vet1 or vet 2.
Disadvantages compared to ATHT: Slower speed. Lacks the insane range cited for ATHT.

These sites should prove helpful for modeling purposes:
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-38t.htm

I'm all for including Panzer 38 (t) with Eastern Front, though I don't see its place in the Panzer Elite. As stated many times before, it could either be a tank call-in for the Ostheers first doctrines foreign battlegroup or a reward unit for the Ostheer.

Your suggestion is good but I think you are confused about the reward unit topic. When we said they will have only 4 reward units, we tried to say that we are going to add up to four in total (EF+vCoH), currently they already have Schwim, Hotchkiss, Jagdpanzer IV and Nashorn.

Not because we cannot add more but to avoid adding more stuff just for the sake of adding it. Perhaps that rule could be modified later, though. Only the time will tell.

Currently Panzer 38(t) is going to come with the foreign battlegroup call-in.

blackbishop wrote:
Currently Panzer 38(t) is going to come with the foreign battlegroup call-in.

:o I love you.

Otto wrote:
There is no light tank available to PE.

You have the Hotchkiss. ::)

^^that thing is garbage!

RedGuard wrote:
^^that thing is garbage!

50mm version is far better than a Stuart.

I agree the Hotchkiss is indeed garbage, but what can you do, unless you're willing to change an original swap out unit. I know you guys have to limit your swap outs but I love variety.

Paciat wrote:

RedGuard wrote:
^^that thing is garbage!

50mm version is far better than a Stuart.

and comes far later, and requires an upgrade - and cant kill entire legions of infantry with a canister shot!

Hotchkiss is good for support with its Stuka upgrade, but the Stubby is better for direct fighting.

stubby kills stuart!

Well, maybe after a very long time. ;)

In the Hotchkiss' defense, with its long barrel upgrade it can take on any tank as long as you have two or more attacking the same tank or you are using alot of hit and run

pariah wrote:
Well, maybe after a very long time. ;)

3-4 shots try it yourself - if shot misses the HE explosion still does tremendous damage
its actually better to miss than to bounce a shell

:o No man, not even to the rear armor. Unless it's received some major buffs...

try it yourself you'll be amazed  ;)

In my version, both tanks going toe-to-toe will barely do any damage to each others front armor.

I killed 2 stuarts yesterday with a stubby, so I dunno what version you're using if that even matters because there hasnt been any changes that effect this

does TD APCR apply to stubby?

Apparently there has... Maybe it was just pure fluke, and the rounds simply didn't penetrate/do significant damage, i dunno...

Hotchkiss will always lose against a Pz. IV F1 because while the former is a light tank, the latter is a medium tank (or real tank whatever you prefer ;)).

Hotchkiss will never be as Strong armour-wise than the stubby.

Nope, APCR doesn't apply to stubbies.

Hotchkiss is cheaper, faster and has 45 gun range while stubby has only 30 gun range - less than a bazooka! PzIVF1 shells do only 5% dmg when they bounce off too. With a little micro Hotchkiss would own a Stubby.

Paciat wrote:
Hotchkiss is cheaper, faster and has 45 gun range while stubby has only 30 gun range - less than a bazooka! PzIVF1 shells do only 5% dmg when they bounce off too. With a little micro Hotchkiss would own a Stubby.

I didn't mentioned micro because Pariah said this:

pariah wrote:
In my version, both tanks going toe-to-toe will barely do any damage to each others front armor.

;D

No doubt the Stubby would win, because it's medium armor versus light armor, but both guns just do very little damage to front armor, so it will take ages. They're not designed to combat medium-heavy armor, after all.

pariah wrote:
No doubt the Stubby would win, because it's medium armor versus light armor, but both guns just do very little damage to front armor, so it will take ages. They're not designed to combat medium-heavy armor, after all.

Hothkiss 50mm gun is designed to combat medium tanks. It does 75dmg, has 0.7296 pen. multiplier to PzIV armor and reloades faster (PzIV has 0.3971pen. to Stuart armor).
The fight would look like a Firefly with a vet 2 CCT support fighting a Tiger and would last ~60secs.

I was comparing the Stubby to the Stuart.

Paciat wrote:

pariah wrote:
No doubt the Stubby would win, because it's medium armor versus light armor, but both guns just do very little damage to front armor, so it will take ages. They're not designed to combat medium-heavy armor, after all.

Hothkiss 50mm gun is designed to combat medium tanks. It does 75dmg, has 0.7296 pen. multiplier to PzIV armor and reloades faster (PzIV has 0.3971pen. to Stuart armor).
The fight would look like a Firefly with a vet 2 CCT support fighting a Tiger and would last ~60secs.

I think i should not understimate the Hotchkiss... However I prefer my Pz. IV ;D!!

Depends on the situation really. They both have their advantages over each other...

I'm pretty sure the Hotchkiss upgunned has disproportionately good penetration against Pershings. I could be wrong though.

I actually really like this suggestion but for the fact that the 38t would have to be quite expensive, weak against infantry and/or quite vulnerable to small arms because you would have access to it after only 50FU. If it costed 45-50FU each then I guess that would be alright since total tech + purchase cost would be 95-100 compared to an M8 which can be on the field by 125FU. If the 38t was extremely bad against infantry and slow, but was much hardier and better against vehicles than the ATHT, I could actually see this working.

Last edited June 28, 2011 at 4:00 AM by GodlikeDennis

@ Dev Team, I am gratified the 38T will make it into Ostheer. I would still like to see it as a reward for ATHT. If its good enough for Ostheer it should be good enough for PE.

@ GlD, I agree with you on the FP cost for the 38T. Its effectiveness against infantry should be better than most tanks w/o an MG mounted on the top of the turret, The swivel ball mounting allowed both radio man and gunner to aim their MGs independently of the direction the vehicles direction, (hence Focus Fire). How effective the MGs would be on the move of course be a matter of balance. Your comments regarding speed are incorrect. The 38T was marginally faster than the PzIII, Pz IV, and marginally slower than the T70. Head to Head the 38T would be eaten by any of the cited tanks firing AP. With micro and a side shot the Any of the above mentioned tanks can take any other....T34s and KV1s on the other hand... (hence the Tread Breaker/Barrel Burster). In the case of the abilities the 38T needs to be stationary to fire...balance.

@ y'all: The H39, (long barrel 37mm/SA18; 40-45mm f.a) will take a PzIVD, (35mm f.a); head to head (after a long time) and might take a PzIVF(50mm f.a.). However the H39 was capable of little more then half the speed  of the Stubby and should be micro'd to death.

@ Paciat, When you suggested PE had a light tank in the H35/39 I assume you were joking. 2-T70s can be produced in 83% of the time it takes to produce 2- H35s Including time to build Sov Infantry tent. (2-T34s can be produced in a slightly longer time). H39 also needs 50 muni upgrade for the "37mm LB", (consider time) to get Tank versus Tank capability. The 2 man H35/39 require 6 pop. T70-3 pop, T34-60 pop. If we assign a Cost of 300/45 to a 38T It would take the Sovs 96% of the time to produce 2-T70s as compared to 2-38Ts or roughly balanced time wise. (Infantry tent time again included).