[1.4] T70 vs PE halftracks and AC nerf

My Curriculum Vitae (to have some credit in my words 8)).

http://www.xfire.com/profile/supersoca/screenshots/cohero/?view#100040724

Actualli, im LVl14 1v1 US, 12 PE before reset.

Well I play EF with another players of higher lvl's than mine (like 16 on 1v1, itaperuna top 15 US 1v1, etc). We all agree that T70 need a nerf, specially against PE. Seems that T70 use an damage profile so much identical to the Stuart before last vCoH patch. Stuart got nerfed

The problem is not the life of T70 or received penetration, they are OK. The main problem is the damage against PE Halftracks (all), AC and SC. As old Stuart, he kills PE units mentioned, in 2 or 3 shots, and worst: it fires faster than Stuart.

You can Tread Break an T70 with atht and he still win.

I can make some replays if you wish, with my high lvl friends.

My sugestion is to nerf T70 damage against PE vehicles, and maybe a minor adjust in  the reload time (it fires too faster). Then will be balanced.

Against Wher its damage is normal.

Last edited June 13, 2011 at 12:52 AM by SuperSoca

SuperSoca wrote:
You can Tread Break an T70 with atht and he still win.

being such a high level player why dont you know atht has longer range. you cant possibly lose if you know to keep out range of its gun after a treadbreak

PE has more than enough counters that come sooner than a t70 does, If anything the t70 is underused IMO

LOL, you dont need to talk like that pal... I showed my status just to see that I know something about the game, or my words would not give credit.

The range is OK, but you can't always TB a T70 before he reache firing range. And he finish your ahth with 2 to 3 shots, before you put it away from T70 firing range because T70 cadency is too fast.

Its easy to compare with another tanks like M8/T17 or the current Stuart.

To make a ATHT:

MP: 255+ 220 + 220 + 260 = 955
Fuel: 20 + 30 + 15 = 65
Ammo: 50 for TB

T70:
MP: 150 +100 + 200 + 120 + 270 =  840
Fuel: 55 + 55 + 35 = 145
Ammo: no ammo.

The T70 uses much more fuel to make than an ATHT, but less MP and no ammo for habilities. The problem is that a soviets can stall the game and cut the PE fuel at about 5 minutes just with conscripts and Command Squad on green cover, and maybe a firebase on soviet fuel, as MP is not a problem to them. This will force PE to make Defensive Operations and 1 or 2 Armored Cars, then in a real situation, he uses more fuel than described above.

In a even match, when the ATHT go out, a standard PE will have about 80-100 ammo, at maximum.

Lets say you TB T70 before firing range. And now? You can do the second T70 and the second ATHT, and at some point your ammo/mp will not be suficient to stop T70 spam. Its like T17 spam on vCoH 2.501. T70 also kiils infantry like hell, as T17 in past vCoH patch.

T70 takes about 40s to be ready.

Relic nerfed T17 because shoting reload times and Stuart damage against "PE Class" ligth vehicles (i repeat, against wher its ok the damage). I tking T70 should be the same way.

T17 armored Car:

Manpower: 180 + 100 + 240 + 280 =  800
Fuel: 15 + 50 + 45 + 40 = 150
Ammo: no ammo used

Do you see? The economy stats are so identical. The vehicle stats should be more alike.

PS: I don't tested T70 firing range on 1.4, but in past patch their range is almost identical to atht.

Last edited June 13, 2011 at 2:53 AM by SuperSoca

Americans start with 15FU as Wehr do, so the T17 actually comes at 135 FU. The M8 comes much earlier at 125 I believe.

However, the modifiers vs 22x vehicles and halftracks could be toned down slightly to make it a 3 hit kill.

I wouldnt say Relic nerfed Stuart, it just made it more M-8tish. (better acc vs infatry, better acc on the move, shreck nerfs vs Stuart)
But youre right, the gun should and probably will be redone (based on Stuart 2.602 gun) since right now T-70 has 2.602 Stuart anti Shreck armor (same as M-8 vs Shrecks) and can kill every early PE vechicle very quickly.

Last edited June 13, 2011 at 9:04 AM by Paciat

My opinion about the T70 is that it's completely rubbish, especially against the PE. Panzerschrecks are easy to obtain, and actually building a T70 means the PE player can get to Panther spam much earlier than the Soviet player can get to IS-2.

Dot.Shadow wrote:
My opinion about the T70 is that it's completely rubbish, especially against the PE. Panzerschrecks are easy to obtain, and actually building a T70 means the PE player can get to Panther spam much earlier than the Soviet player can get to IS-2.

Its like saying that Stuarts are (or were) crap vs PE becouse it delays Fireflies. ::)
T-70 has similar HP (350) to SU-85 but it has 0,7recived dmg and 0,85recived acc vs Shrecks. Its better at fighting infantry than SU and deals same dmg (55x2=110) to most PE vechicles as SU.
If you fear a PzIV or a Hetzer (Jagdpanzer) than go ahead and build a SU, but that will delay your IS-2. :P

The reason this topic was created is becouse WH can make a comeback if its fuel is cut off. PE on the other hand need 5 accurate shreck shots (or 4 shrecks and 1 treadbreaker shot) to destroy it. Shreck blobs wont win vs Soviet infantry, any buildable PE vechicle will also be quickly destroyed.

Finally, as Ive said before Stuarts/Staghounds gun wasnt nerfed in 2.602. It fires faster, has better acc vs infantry, better acc on the move and still does x2 dmg to Marders/Hummels (and Nashorns ;) ). T-70 should also get a similar buff.

Ola SuperSoca! Good to hear from the Brazilian EF community. The T70 does not need changed vs PE. If you dominate the Fuel resources against PE you should win! Early T4 for PE is not sound strategy from the point of view of Tank vs Tank combat. PE panzers have little hope against Soviet Armor until the late game arrival of the Panther.  :( The ATHT is not a bad unit but its limited cross country maneuverability and poor firing arc make it unsuitable as a primary counter to any Tankovy threat. T3 gives much more flexibility against the Sovs. Consider. You have detected any early Tankovy Spam threat. (2)MIIIs > (3)T70s? Cost effectiveness analysis: PE (1495 MP, 170 FP), Sov (1380 MP, 215 FP). PE pays 7% more in MP, 25% less in FP. I suspect 2 Marders take less time to build than 3 T70s. Plus the operational muni cost savings.

Otto wrote:[....]
PE (1495 MP, 170 FP), Sov (1380 MP, 215 FP). PE pays 7% more in MP, 25% less in FP. I suspect 2 Marders take less time to build than 3 T70s. Plus the operational muni cost savings.

? With a little micro/flanking I can beat 1 out of 2 sighted marders with 1 t70. The T70 will die though. 2 t70 should already be enough to destroy 2 marders. With 3 t70 all you have to do is: drive them up front, and focus fire 1 Marder iwth all 3 t70 - marder dead. Then circle the 2nd marder, and with the next salvo (t+6 seconds) it will be dead also. And you have some nice vetted t70.

Yep, t70 3shot marders. Its hilarous, I did it in a 3on3 2 or 3 days ago :D

Yep! with micro flanking your talking about a balanced situation. With a ket spotting a Marder should be abled to take out the T70 at range. It sounds pretty balanced to me. No?

probably of no balance concern but the T70 unlike Stuart and M8 can't really damage infantry for shit....it's slower than the aforementioned both of which easily kill PE vehicles.
Of course, if you can't kill a T70 with an AT halftrack, there is no chance in hell that you've ever managed to kill and M8 or Stuart with it either

Otto wrote:
Yep! with micro flanking your talking about a balanced situation. With a ket spotting a Marder should be abled to take out the T70 at range. It sounds pretty balanced to me. No?

No.
Its only balanced when youre defending.
When PE is attacking Marders get destroyed by the fast T-70 or stay behind and T-70 shoots at infantry with similar acc to 2.601 Stuart, when Soviets attack with infantry Marders retreat and get flanked by T-70.

[quote=Paciat]
T-70 has similar HP (350) to SU-85 but it has 0,7recived dmg and 0,85recived acc vs Shrecks. Its better at fighting infantry than SU and deals same dmg (55x2=110) to most PE vechicles as SU.
If you fear a PzIV or a Hetzer (Jagdpanzer) than go ahead and build a SU, but that will delay your IS-2.

The reason this topic was created is becouse WH can make a comeback if its fuel is cut off. PE on the other hand need 5 accurate shreck shots (or 4 shrecks and 1 treadbreaker shot) to destroy it. Shreck blobs wont win vs Soviet infantry, any buildable PE vechicle will also be quickly destroyed.

Finally, as Ive said before Stuarts/Staghounds gun wasnt nerfed in 2.602. It fires faster, has better acc vs infantry, better acc on the move and still does x2 dmg to Marders/Hummels (and Nashorns ). T-70 should also get a similar buff.[/quote]

Nice analysis Paciat.

But I disagree about you saying that Stuart gun was not nerfed in 2.602. It was, against PE half-tracks and AC's.

People... there is some changes that doesn't are writen on changelog: The Stuart damage against AC's is one of them. You can install 2.601 and make the test, you will see (download from Relic FTP and install in a separated folder). You can ask any expert PE/brit player about that. In 2.601, Stuart will bring down an AC's, HT's (including: vampire, mortar, SC... maybe possible exception about munitionsHT)  with 2 shots and a minor damage of firearmes, often he bring down with 2 clear shots, or make engine damage after first or second shot. Stuart damage was nerfed against these vehicles. I even consider this a bug.

On 2.601 Stuart was too much vulnerable to shrecks too, that was balanced (that information shows in changelog).

[quote=Otto 213]Ola SuperSoca! Good to hear from the Brazilian EF community. The T70 does not need changed vs PE. If you dominate the Fuel resources against PE you should win! Early T4 for PE is not sound strategy from the point of view of Tank vs Tank combat. PE panzers have little hope against Soviet Armor until the late game arrival of the Panther.  The ATHT is not a bad unit but its limited cross country maneuverability and poor firing arc make it unsuitable as a primary counter to any Tankovy threat. T3 gives much more flexibility against the Sovs. Consider. You have detected any early Tankovy Spam threat. (2)MIIIs > (3)T70s? Cost effectiveness analysis: PE (1495 MP, 170 FP), Sov (1380 MP, 215 FP). PE pays 7% more in MP, 25% less in FP. I suspect 2 Marders take less time to build than 3 T70s. Plus the operational muni cost savings.[/quote]

Hi pal!!! Nice to have a such friendly welcome! Thanks! :D

I still think he need change in damage vs vehicles mentioned before.
In truth, T4 is one of the best non-doctrinal counter against Ligth Armor of any army. Others possible counter including munitions ht and shrecks are easily countered with infantry or detector units. Marder take too much fuel and you will need 2 of then or combined with at infantry, then ATHT is the main counter for these vehicle class.

3 T70 kill easilly, very easilly 2 marders, losing 1 or no one T70 if flanked correctly. But that is not the problem, as marder usually is used to counter heavy armor.

You forgot to mention fuel that PE must spend in research/vehicles to counter soviet infantry.

[quote=Zerstörer]probably of no balance concern but the T70 unlike Stuart and M8 can't really damage infantry for shit....it's slower than the aforementioned both of which easily kill PE vehicles.
Of course, if you can't kill a T70 with an AT halftrack, there is no chance in hell that you've ever managed to kill and M8 or Stuart with it either[/quote]

You can't simply put the situation like this. You must evaluate all the situation. As i said before, if you doing the rigth micro and TB T70 after he reached firing range, you can still lose ATHT because T70 damage against these vehicles. He simply can 2-3 shot kill (he fires fast!) you before you can go out.

Ok then, to anyone that believes the T70 is balanced, I challenge any PE player to try to beat me.

Early light vehicles will always be the bane of the PE player. It's one of the faults in their design.

The Stuart changes in 2.602 were a buff. They had their insane modifiers against halftracks reduced but now fire much faster, so are better against ALL target types and still equally effective against HTs.

that is wrong. Sorry.

It is not, sorry.

Right now Stuarts are much better at much Circlestrafing, (better acc while moving) fighting infantry and still do x2 dmg vs Marders (right now its as good at fighting Marders as M10s are). I think it was a buff.

Anyway T-70 should be buff-nerfed in the same way as Stuart was and most people will be satisfied.

t-70 need to be nerfed, 2 shots kill PE vehicles to faster.

Paciat wrote:
Right now Stuarts are much better at much Circlestrafing, (better acc while moving) fighting infantry and still do x2 dmg vs Marders (right now its as good at fighting Marders as M10s are). I think it was a buff.

Anyway T-70 should be buff-nerfed in the same way as Stuart was and most people will be satisfied.

Yes, there is no problem with T70 against infantry or Marder. And Stuart is great in 2.602. The problem is just the damage against PE ligth armor. Only that.

But people can't understand the balance in this. :P

PS2: Afterday I come to attention to T90. He is doing damage against Wibblerwind, that suposedly have heavy armor (no damage from smal firearms). Maybe penetration values need to be reviewed.

2 T90 can kill a Wibblerwind alone. You can do the test and verify.
Today I will test if this is a T90 + Wiblerwind particularity. But this is subject for another topic.

Last edited June 14, 2011 at 3:24 PM by SuperSoca

I'm not talkin about gameplay in this last posting, as 3Pastel1Choops play a way better than me (he is lvl 16 automatch, I'm 14/15 before patch).

Analize yourselves purelly the numbers:

Look at Kattenkrad and AC on about 11:00.

T70 one shot Katten, then take 60% life from a AC on the first shot.

Don't tell me that this damage is correct  >:(. I consider this a bug... Its identical to Stuart 2.501.

You all can play with PE vs Ardorius (posted here on the another page), you cant win T70 spam, unless possibly you go TD doc.

PS: I'm don't trying to be mandatory or arrogant, instead I'm trying to show you that this issue with T70 vs PE AC and Halftracks need a adjustment, and T90 penetration vs Heavy armor as well.

Last edited June 23, 2011 at 12:46 AM by SuperSoca

Don't worry T-70 was "buffed/nerfed" against PE light vehicles for the next patch :).

As Bishop said, we've already adjusted this in the same manner the Stuart was adjusted. Increased moving accuracy at the expense of the insane damage modifiers against halftracks.

Watched your replay.

I think it was a micro error from you that your atht died. It drove torwards the T70 that had a destroyed engine. Also you let him cap the map in the begginning though he had a weak unit start (3x engi)

Last edited June 23, 2011 at 3:20 PM by Killar

Killar wrote:
Watched your replay.

I think it was a micro error from you that your atht died. It drove torwards the T70 that had a destroyed engine. Also you let him cap the map in the begginning though he had a weak unit start (3x engi)

thats usually the case around here, and then when the replay emerges its like uhhh... theres nothing wrong with the unit its your play!

blackbishop wrote:
Don't worry T-70 was "buffed/nerfed" against PE light vehicles for the next patch :).

QuoteGodlikeDennis

Great to hear that people! I knowed that you would understand the point that I was saying.  ;D

That's because I decided to using Eastern Fronts to make the Europe War Tournament, as you give attention to this important details and make necessary changes.

I was afraid to look as a "crying loser", then I tryied to supply maximun information and theoretical basis for explaining my point of view and the pro's (not me) opinnions.

I think EF is GREAT and already has a good balance, and that will be so much more balanced in the future.

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RedGuard wrote:thats usually the case around here, and then when the replay emerges its like uhhh... theres nothing wrong with the unit its your play!

Yeah I know that its the majority of cases, but you must agree with this posting as i'm no fanboy of no faction and showed solid facts.

Last edited June 25, 2011 at 6:35 PM by SuperSoca