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[1.4] GoW 2.0

Balance Discussion

#71765

[1.4] GoW 2.0

This thread is not for me to complain about GoW, or even to give my opinion. I want to gather community opinion on the new God of War since it's a huge part of this new patch. If you haven't used GoW in 1.4 don't comment.

The exact mechanics are that it is placed like the off map arty of the infantry doctrine (unusable in base sectors) and, after a couple second delay, fires around 15 shells that deal extremely heavy damage (1 shell deals about 2/3 the health of an Ostwind) that cover about a screenlength. For the next minute, small "aftershock" barrages of rockets and artillery fire on enemies moving through the affected area with rather bad accuracy. 150MU. 4min cooldown.

This is a very important issue since the balance team can't deal with all situations where it will be used. While we feel it's balanced for 1v1 we need everyone's opinion on how useful it is in as many situations as possible.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#71781

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

It does fairly well in 2v2 in my opinion. I used it to ultimately destroy the enemy's forces building up near the left VP on Red Ball Express, wish I had a replay.

"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#71802

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

GoW is pretty cool now.

But I think that the cost is too low. 150 muni are easily gathered by the end of the match, and while you cant use GoW in base sector, in most of the map you can use it near the very limit of the base sector, which is annoying because it destroy nearly everything near the HQ...

I havent noticed the "small aftershock barrages of rocket and artillery" though; for me after the main firing there was nothing else.
"Du sublime au ridicule, il n'y a qu'un pas"
-Napoléon Bonaparte
#71803

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

The aftershocks only fire if an enemy moves through the affected zone, like sector arty.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#71804

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

All those "OMG it shoots the base-sector" posts are annoying and wrong - all axis "kill area" abilities (except sector artillery) do the same. Those damn V-1 rockets, or the mortar barrages. So why shouldn't GoW scratch a bit of a base sector? Just stop building all your stuff close to the border of that sector.
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#71811

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

IJoe wrote:
All those "OMG it shoots the base-sector" posts are annoying and wrong - all axis "kill area" abilities (except sector artillery) do the same. Those damn V-1 rockets, or the mortar barrages. So why shouldn't GoW scratch a bit of a base sector? Just stop building all your stuff close to the border of that sector.


GoW is very (I mean VERY) powerful, its not comparable to any axis doctrinal arty. And it come kinda fast after the smoke; btw I think that the V1 cant destroy a base building, just damage it badly (not sure though).
But you're right that one shouldnt build on borders.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
The aftershocks only fire if an enemy moves through the affected zone, like sector arty.


Kinda cool! Thanks for the info; when I used it, I obliterated everyone in the sector so...  ;D
"Du sublime au ridicule, il n'y a qu'un pas"
-Napoléon Bonaparte
#71849

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

My question is how does this compare to the american bombing run for price and effectiveness?  Granted the American equivolent is considered underpowered,

but it's what, 250 munitions?(or 200, can't remember)  drops smoke(apparently according to a post upthread so does gow, so maybe I just missed it)  with the appropriate delay, has a very tight pattern(but these bombs do much more damage?) and doesn't have any after-shocks. 

That in a doctrine that sees no other forms of artillery than that and the infantry specific staffing run. 

I'm can't say after one game whether GOW is overpowered, or undercosted...I wasn't familiar enough with how it works to avoid it the last game I saw it...and as a consequence my tiger kept limping around the map at 2/5th's health(I saw the offmap alot)...it was a wasteland so neither of us hadmore than about 5 units a piece, and were just vp fighting, otherwise my tank would have been an easy kill.

My early impression though, is that 150 is too cheap, and that so is the air attack ability in the other doctrine...this damn ability kills so many squads, and also softens tanks...it's just brutal in the middle of an engagement, and should at least be mitigated in it use by cost.
-------------------------

*Actually, I just rewatched a replay with that, and it looks like it no longer does much if any damage to tanks, even though I was still scrambling as if it worked like it used to, so maybe that cost isn't too much of a problem

Last edited May 29, 2011 at 5:12 PM by Joshua9

#71875

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

the 2 factions have seriously different designs.

so costs will be very different

Soviet is OP

Last edited May 29, 2011 at 7:33 PM by RedGuard

#71879

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Its cool, and its good and effective.  I really like it, because even if the enemy hits retreat fast, they'll still have a chance to get hit.  Perhaps change the cost to 200 munis, like PE sector artillery.
#71882

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

I dont think the price needs to be increased, wheres the balance issue?
Soviet is OP
#71891

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

RedGuard wrote:
I dont think the price needs to be increased, wheres the balance issue?


I find GoW EXTREMELY effective at all. It has low cooldown ( comparing to V1 for instance), 150 mun is just a joke, and it levels everything on designated area. What I have to say, that if it wouldn't be 8 CPs ability it could be called OP.

However it still is either too cheap or too fast reuseable. I'd add about 60 seconds delay more.
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#71893

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

RedGuard wrote:
I dont think the price needs to be increased, wheres the balance issue?


Recently given the fact that, from what I see, is that you are consistently opposed to any soviet nerfing or limiting, including the SU-122, which GodLikeDennis should have posted a replay in the Beta Forum whereas we went up against one urban soviet whom dropped and the CPU used SU-122s often, and they took out 3 pumas at the same time, did incredible damage to the Tigers, killed Panthers and Panzer IVs at Vet 1 and a few other ridiculous armor killing features. That's my issue.

Back on Topic: When you compare this to a V1, which is of the same price, the God of War 2.0 seems to do incredible damage, that like a V1, but GOW seems to do much more. The initial barrage may be equal to or greater than a V1, and not to mention it's aftershock ability, GOW can last for a couple of minutes. A V1 is easily avoidable as well, because you have about 10+ seconds to react from the beginning of the sound. When GOW falls you really do not get much of a warning and even if you DO retreat it limits your troops from entering the sector due to the risk of falling victim to the aftershock.

My suggestion would be to make the price 200 and possibly make the recharge a bit longer: Compare it to a V1's recharge.
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#71895

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

I'm inclined to entertain intelligent points and discussion, like the one you've raised about cooldown.

GoW should not be spammable, even if you have the muni - but if you are spamming it where are you getting 300+ munitions from?

maybe you have dominant map control and have held it for a while, which brings me to my next thought; is it GoW's fault or did you already lose the game?

theres many factors and variables that go into this game and allow certain situations to transpire. it runs much deeper than your average player can ponder

in either case keep the feedback coming friends
Soviet is OP
#71897

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Cranialwizard wrote:
RedGuard wrote:
I dont think the price needs to be increased, wheres the balance issue?


Recently given the fact that, from what I see, is that you are consistently opposed to any soviet nerfing or limiting, including the SU-122


+1.
#71899

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

@cranial sorry you feel that way, if you had access to the dev balance board you would see I raise very legitimate points about SU things that are unbalanced

in either case, somebody has to be the bad guy. The problem is the flood of inexperieced or poor players flooding the board with problems of their own that arent legitimate balance concerns but actually manifestations of their own poor play

in turn this skewes the popular opinion and perception of many things wrongfully
Soviet is OP
#71929

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Overall, GOW II is much better and its fair enough, I reckon its actually really balanced and soviets do have muni upkeep so ....
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#71931

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Hi redguard,

I'm glad you're getting some good games with some solid opponents... 

I've asked this before of others and I'll bring it up again.  There aren't enough replays of good players presenting the "right" way to play against soviets...Since you're getting some good games under your belt, it would be nice for you to post some.  Without those as a reference, and as a guide, we may be jumping to conclusions, but it doesn't do much good for you to just say its because we aren't good players and that's our problem, "end of story." 


I do find the factions much more balanced at this point than I did pre patch, which between me and my friend, were guaranteed russian victories every game, no matter which of us played wehr.  Now I either lose mid game as wehr to base overruns with tank hunters coupled with any number of their complimenting comrades,  or I play out a long effing game to finally take the life out of russias many aggressions 50 to 60 minutes in.  (actually this can translate into a loss easy enough too)


In these long games, even when I control the better part of the map, I don't find the russians ever having to throw their weapons at me for lack of munitions, inspite of the tanks they field.  every time we get to the point of off-maps coming down...they continue to come down from the russians, in every engagement, without let-up.  is this because of the early munitions income?  I guess 2 per minute doesn't really translate into much, even over the course of an hour long game, but from my lamens perspective GOW could definitely cost more.

That's an opinion that I might withdraw with more play, or with some convincing replays that show how a wehr player keeps a russian economy down.


...................

I mentioned in a previous post that maybe I was wrong about the straffing run...I don't think I am...the last game I played, I got 5 consecutive, and they did do LOts of damage to tanks...

its too much of a game changer in one shot to be perpetual...more munitions and a longer cooldown would be a blessing

Last edited May 30, 2011 at 4:50 AM by Joshua9

#71945

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

GoW sholud be compared to Wehrmacht 280mm Defensive rocket barrage. It rapes everything and has a very short cooldown and wide AoE.
Soviets have their tank muni upkeep so 150muni is fine. Aftershock hits both sides.
My Ostheer concept.
#71973

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

The V1 is a much, much more powerful base buster than the God of War ability could be.

Even so, I like the new God of War ability. I still need to use it a bit more before I can definitively say "yes! It's perfect now", but it's looking very good so far.
#77300

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Cranialwizard wrote:
Recently given the fact that, from what I see, is that you are consistently opposed to any soviet nerfing or limiting, including the SU-122, which GodLikeDennis should have posted a replay in the Beta Forum whereas we went up against one urban soviet whom dropped and the CPU used SU-122s often, and they took out 3 pumas at the same time, did incredible damage to the Tigers, killed Panthers and Panzer IVs at Vet 1 and a few other ridiculous armor killing features. That's my issue.

Back on Topic: When you compare this to a V1, which is of the same price, the God of War 2.0 seems to do incredible damage, that like a V1, but GOW seems to do much more. The initial barrage may be equal to or greater than a V1, and not to mention it's aftershock ability, GOW can last for a couple of minutes. A V1 is easily avoidable as well, because you have about 10+ seconds to react from the beginning of the sound. When GOW falls you really do not get much of a warning and even if you DO retreat it limits your troops from entering the sector due to the risk of falling victim to the aftershock.

My suggestion would be to make the price 200 and possibly make the recharge a bit longer: Compare it to a V1's recharge.


Totally agree with CranialWizard. And plus: I think the main problem is the abovementioned cooldown, and not the cost. But the 50 (or even 100, but i think that just 50 is better) ammo cost increase that he sugested is totally OK.  ;)
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#77312

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

I think the new GOW is wow and its better than sector arty but its cooldown doesn't reflect it. Its muni cost is fine since Soviets have muni upkeep right.
OIY! Get your filthy hands off the Maus!
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=5672.0

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#77362

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Paladin88 wrote:
I think the new GOW is wow and its better than sector arty but its cooldown doesn't reflect it. Its muni cost is fine since Soviets have muni upkeep right.


Yes, I think you're right. I talked without caferul analyzing. But the cooldown time must be well tunned.
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#77503

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Seriously the GOW V2 (ha ha V2?) has a really good feel now! It probably needs its cooldown modified.
OIY! Get your filthy hands off the Maus!
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=5672.0

Hee hee, I added colour to the avatar. Isn't it nice?
#77623

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

remember with soviet munition upkeep it is in theory more expensive than comparable arty strikes, and it cannot be used to abuse like v1's and 280mm mortar barrage can be, amongst other axis arty, to nuke bases

its more destructive, in theory, but a heck of a lot more random and less accurate.
I think its fine munitions are everything to soviet if you want to throw away 300 munitions spamming GoW be my guest, i'll retreat and you'll be out a gamechanging amount of munitions
Soviet is OP
#77639

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

RedGuard wrote:
remember with soviet munition upkeep it is in theory more expensive than comparable arty strikes, and it cannot be used to abuse like v1's and 280mm mortar barrage can be, amongst other axis arty, to nuke bases


If your basic inf is guards (in the most cases in 1.40) than you dont have to tech sturmovies and strelkys. So in the end you will have about 600 mun. Meaning you can abuse that arty strike alot. Watch the replay between me and yauz. He called in IL2 like 5 times, 150 mun each.
#77640

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

I believe you, but any faction is capable of spamming off map abilitys. the soviet faction just didnt invent that all of a sudden
Soviet is OP
#77720

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

yes, but IL2 inparticular is a problem when spammed...you can't just scoot off to the fringes..you have to retreat every infantry unit you have in the general vicinity, and it's also going to soften your tanks.  One time will greatly affect the outcome of the current battle.

over and over and over and over with no let up, is just stealing the victory
#77747

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

IL@ isn't spamable?
The Russians think there sooo tough, wait till the Ostheer comes...

Coh Name: Seeme
#77765

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Joshua9 wrote:
yes, but IL2 inparticular is a problem when spammed...you can't just scoot off to the fringes..you have to retreat every infantry unit you have in the general vicinity, and it's also going to soften your tanks.  One time will greatly affect the outcome of the current battle.

over and over and over and over with no let up, is just stealing the victory

True Il-2 is OP especially in team games. GoW is just a late game arti strike - quite easy to avoid (unlike defensive rockets or sector arti).
My Ostheer concept.
#77768

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

registered arty has a huge radius and strikes immediately
il2 rockets are like soft pellets to axis armor its the strafe that needs to be toned down
Soviet is OP
#77827

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

RedGuard wrote:
registered arty has a huge radius and strikes immediately
il2 rockets are like soft pellets to axis armor its the strafe that needs to be toned down

It will be the same as the strafing run in 2.602 in the next patch
#77840

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

yeah i know im agreeing with a few of u
<---balance team and all that
Soviet is OP
#78146

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

I believe the balance aspects of GoW 2.0 cost/effectiveness/cooldown rates should be compared to similar characteristics for the firebase. Regardless of how you crunch the numbers a firebase can rape axis bases and usually gets to vet3 at three or four barrages.

I is true that IL2s can do a number on the Axis but two Flakwagens do a number on the IL2s.
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#79669

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

In my humble opinion I think that the cost of Gow is way too low. I also dont agree that it can take out a  german def doctrine bunker.
" When will those stupid russians learn to run FROM the machine gun! hahahahaha,, oh crap!! How the hell did they get a tank so fast!!! "
#79845

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

vonhaggon wrote:
In my humble opinion I think that the cost of Gow is way too low. I also dont agree that it can take out a  german def doctrine bunker.


haha youre retarded I take it ???
Soviet is OP

Last edited July 16, 2011 at 9:22 AM by RedGuard

#79881

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

vonhaggon wrote:
I also dont agree that it can take out a  german def doctrine bunker.


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"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#79916

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

I have found that in most all p vs p games that i play, GOW is used to level wehr bunkers.I didnt have a problem with that at first, given the cost of gow.I figured the late game costs would limit its usage and would be used as a coffin tack for an already dead in the water player. I was i bit wrong in my asumptions though. I began testing it in normal fasion with my brother and going back and forth for a night on EF, and what we found is that the wehr's defence doctrine bunker HP increase still cannot take the gow, and in so many cases whether me or my bro were on german side or not, gow was used in many cases, even in big games, gow is used to turn the tide of the battle with a focused breakthrough attack that we became used to taking advantage of. Over and over again.
" When will those stupid russians learn to run FROM the machine gun! hahahahaha,, oh crap!! How the hell did they get a tank so fast!!! "
#79918

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

^^youre not a very skilled player are you? just askin
Soviet is OP
#79923

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

I think both Gow and the strafing is increased in price to 250 Munition. I have several times killed + 5 of the enemy tanks using gow. I thought otherwise that both things are cool to have, but they are too cheap.

do we not get any more sneak peeks before osther are released? videos, text, images, anything.


Quite honestly who in their right mind would replace a Calliope for a Jumbo?

Last edited July 16, 2011 at 9:13 PM by mads

#79935

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

mads wrote:
do we not get any more sneak peeks before osther are released? videos, text, images, anything.


It's done when it's done so just be patient.

mads wrote:
I think both Gow and the strafing is increased in price to 250 Munition. I have several times killed + 5 of the enemy tanks using gow. I thought otherwise that both things are cool to have, but they are too cheap.


God of War has an aftershock effect that targets enemy units within the direct area you unleashed the initial barrage in. It's a tight and concentrated strike, if you're killing 5 or more tanks in one launch your opponent must be lacking micro.
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#79958

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

+1 Cranial. In the next patch, the aftershock area will be designated on the minimap for all to see so you'll know to stay out of the area.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#80377

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

So can the enemy see too?
The Russians think there sooo tough, wait till the Ostheer comes...

Coh Name: Seeme
#80392

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Seeme wrote:
So can the enemy see too?


Correct.
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#80393

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Cranialwizard wrote:
Seeme wrote:
So can the enemy see too?


Correct.


That's neat and sounds finally perfectly balanced.  :)
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#80473

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Ahhhh you are connecting the current GoW with the PE sector arty! Do the strikes after the initial GoW same damage as PE sector? Same duration?
#80502

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

excuse me for going off topic, but what does micro mean? (im not up on the COH slang)
#80503

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

I'm not up to CoH slang either, but I think it means micromanagement or how you handle every single unit ingame.

Then macro would mean macromanagement or how do you handle your economy.
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...
#80504

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Killar wrote:
Ahhhh you are connecting the current GoW with the PE sector arty! Do the strikes after the initial GoW same damage as PE sector? Same duration?


Not the same duration, I don't know about damage. It will be similar to the Sector arty in that anything within the circle marked on the map is saturated with shells.

I don't think I can say much more but there are other surprises :)

Crinkle wrote:
excuse me for going off topic, but what does micro mean? (im not up on the COH slang)



Micro-Short for Micromanaging. It's a term we use to describe the quick and accurate control of single units. For example quickly adapting them to cover or changes in weaponry.

If you turn your MGs in the correct position to cover flanks and adapt to flanking troops then you are executing good micro :)

If you are forgetting about retreated units or leaving your tanks stationary in big close groups you are executing bad micro  :P
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#80507

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

ahhh, thank you wizard.  ;D
i've had no idea what anyone was on about for ages.
#80508

Re: [1.4] GoW 2.0

Cranialwizard wrote:
Not the same duration, I don't know about damage. It will be similar to the Sector arty in that anything within the circle marked on the map is saturated with shells.

Nice! Me like it!  :D