[[IP address redacted]] 88 and Flak 40

I just posted over at relic forums something which came onto my mind today when I played the allied campaign map Omaha Beach:

Quote
FLAK 88
The Crew should get heroic armour!

Why?

Reason is simple: heroic armour units require 2 shots from a sniper to die instead of one.

Since the Flak 88 got nerfed against infantry and AT-guns it should also receive a buff to compensate, making it fulfil its role better. Only few people build the 88, since it's so lackluster and so easily decrewed.

Currently a single sniper kills the crew within 6-8 seconds, 2 snipers insta-gib the whole crew, even if you immediately react and try to kill the snipers (like sending in a bike/volks with mp40) the enemy can just decrew the gun and retreat his snipers and then rush in with his tanks. Even if you reman it his tanks will beat a 88 up close range.

I surely don't want to make it OP, it's just that the 88 already has lots of counters like mortars, AT-guns and of course every sort of artillery, even tanks if you don't spot for it properly. So there's no real need for allied snipers to take out the crew so easily.

Also, the Luftwaffe Vierlingsflak (the small one which is also base defense) should get heroic armour crews. The same reason applies to it: it's got plenty of counters, and I haven't seen one used in a competitive game ever. It can be decrewed easily, and in hands of an allied player the Flak deals way more damage against panzergrenadiers than against allied infantry.

No, No, No, and NO again.
Axis are already OP as is, and were that from the very start, so now, when they finally got some very fair nerfs, it shouldn't be just rolled back, because people are so used to them being OP.
That's my very own personal view on the situation.

IJoe wrote:
No, No, No, and NO again.
Axis are already OP as is, and were that from the very start, so now, when they finally got some very fair nerfs, it shouldn't be just rolled back, because people are so used to them being OP.
That's my very own personal view on the situation.

Nobody said something about rolling the nerfs back. It's just about tier 2 snipers who cost 340 mp to not be able to insta-gib a doctrinal end game unit which can't move and costs 400mp/75 fuel + 10 or 12 pop. AT-guns destroy the flak in 2 hits, snipers currently unman it instantly, artillery deals high damage against it, mortars also and so on...

He's got a point...

I'm neutral on this idea. It sounds good, but then again, it could be making the axis more OP... Hmmm, I'm torn on this one :/

dArCReAvEr wrote:

IJoe wrote:
No, No, No, and NO again.
Axis are already OP as is, and were that from the very start, so now, when they finally got some very fair nerfs, it shouldn't be just rolled back, because people are so used to them being OP.
That's my very own personal view on the situation.

Nobody said something about rolling the nerfs back. It's just about tier 2 snipers who cost 340 mp to not be able to insta-gib a doctrinal end game unit which can't move and costs 400mp/75 fuel + 10 or 12 pop. AT-guns destroy the flak in 2 hits, snipers currently unman it instantly, artillery deals high damage against it, mortars also and so on...

Personally, I would make difference in reinforcement cost for them (80 for the spotter, 320 for the sniper), and move arty to some after additional armory upgrade, or after tank depo is built. And the cost could be 380.
But that's without some sniper's rate of fire and spotter critical chance nerfs, that are already done, and no health reduction as well.

Last edited April 21, 2011 at 11:26 AM by IJoe

IJoe wrote:
Personally, I would make difference in reinforcement cost for them (80 for the spotter, 320 for the sniper), and move arty to some after additional armory upgrade, or after tank depo is built. And the cost could be 380.

I didn't talk about the soviet snipers specially. Just that allied snipers (US & soviet) are basically tier 2 (second building you build) units, not that they are two units.

Last edited April 21, 2011 at 11:53 AM by dArCReAvEr

Well, 88, being extremely, almost overwhelmingly powerful AT should have this weakness, IMO. And it's counterable anyway.

IJoe wrote:
Well, 88, being extremely, almost overwhelmingly powerful AT should have this weakness, IMO. And it's counterable anyway.

When patch is going life there's no incentive to go defensive doctrine anymore.

Artillery? - Terror's comes earlier and is better. (Firestorm 3 CP, can be used anywhere, deals damage over time for 160 ammo. Def only got registered arty which can only be used on allied flags [dont get me wrong, its useful, but not for attacking) Firestorm can be used everywhere for attack AND defense.

Fortify a VP with 88? Well, King Tiger is an 88 on wheels that can move out of arty barrages and can't be decrewed. It comes some cp later though. Still, he's effective against tanks and infantry, so he's more useful than the 88.

And Terror with Tiger Ace (which is essentially a Geschützwagen on crack. I've played during vCoH times and used the Ace quite frequently so I should know) totally overshadows the whole defensive doctrine.
EDIT: Oh and I forgot: The 88 looses frequently to fireflies, pershings, and even shermans if you don't abuse its maximum range, and even then the combo

2 shermans -> drive to 88 -> pop arty (offmap or calliope) on it -> drive damaged sherman back -> mop up the axis mgs and rush in with infantry worked everytime to destroy/capture an 88 which was not vet 3.


For the Fatherland is nice, but it's not an ability I would sacrifice my doctrine for, especially not if I have the choice to get the same than 88 + arty in better from another doctrine.

EDIT: and well - fortified bunkers are bleh. Imo most US players simply were too stupid to fight them properly, but that's just my opinion. To fight against US as Wehr I didn't need the improved ones. Tbh, I rarely even built bunkers. And when I did the normal bunkers with terror worked fine for me.

Now the "noob factor" for the stronger defensive bunkers also has gone.

And well... PE Flak 88 - I've actually only seen PE building a 88 in 2 competitive games, and that was during 2.301 when PE was so OP it didn't make a difference.

So for now: HEROIC CREWS FOR 88 (Wehr & PE) and Flakvierling (PE).
There could be considered giving the 105mm Howitzer heroic crews also.

Last edited April 21, 2011 at 12:19 PM by dArCReAvEr

I actually support this. Flaks are vastly underused in a competitive game because they are so incredibly easy to counter and are only useful against tanks, which don't see too much action against Wehr superior AT anyway and especially not in competitive VP matches. Also, sniping base flaks is incredibly lame for the PE player.

Making them more useful?
Then what's the corresponding buff (because it will be an axis buff, undoubtedly) for the counterparts.
Yeah, people don't usually send tanks to fight 88, they'd rather switch to infantry. This means, they are more than successful in performing their duties (which is "creating the no-tank zone"), right?

IJoe wrote:
Making them more useful?
Then what's the corresponding buff (because it will be an axis buff, undoubtedly) for the counterparts.
Yeah, people don't usually send tanks to fight 88, they'd rather switch to infantry. This means, they are more than successful in performing their duties (which is "creating the no-tank zone"), right?

Actually, not.

Quote2 shermans (if he does not scouts even 1 Sherman can be enough)
-> drive to 88
-> pop arty (offmap or calliope) on it
-> drive damaged sherman back
-> mop up the axis mgs and rush in with infantry
-> move shermans in and attack the gun (press a+ leftclick on unmanned gun. Even if he remans the 88 it will still die. And the def player probably loose the game)

(alternative: use mortar + smoke and demolish the supporting stuff
with rangers)

worked everytime for me to destroy/capture an 88 which was not vet 3. I think in all my game time (since ~ 2005) I've seen like 10 people building a eighty-eight in a ranked match. I myself have built like 25. I rarely play defensive, just for the plain reason: it sucks. I don't need bunkers, and I don't need an AT gun which crew can be farted at and dies so I have a constant mp drain just to keep it working.

Like I said: When retail 2.700 arrives, nobody will play defensive anymore, since terror got everything defensive got in a better version.

Last edited April 21, 2011 at 1:40 PM by dArCReAvEr

It doesn't make an entire faction OP because one UP end doctrine unit is buffed to make it actually usable in a competitive game. There is no need for a "counter buff" for the enemy factions. My point was that there are rarely allied tanks on the field in a 1v1 anyway most of the time and the occasions there are, axis AT is good enough already rather than building this massive waste of resources. 2v2ATs it becomes more useful but is still countered incredibly easily, especially by snipers which are the mainstay of most American combos.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
It doesn't make an entire faction OP because one UP end doctrine unit is buffed to make it actually usable in a competitive game[...] especially by snipers which are the mainstay of most American combos.

Exactly my point. Thanks.

Surely 88 are not the reason, why I, personally, consider axis to be OP,- it's the sum of superb armor, AT (paks and shreks), and rather sustainable infantry, which literally forces people to play "noobish" (stupid blobbing etc.), because some proper style of play becomes increasingly ineffective.
I, personally, find some particular axis units to be too spammable, while being too good. This especially, in 2v2 and larger games, truly becomes an issue (when PE starts spamming hetzers, f.e.)
If you want to make 88 more resilient to infantry, then make it less effective against armor. That story about "OK, now: build a huge army, and beat the crap out of that 88" is plenty entertaining, really.

Hetzer spamming? Really? You must be an even worse player than I thought if you're losing to Hetzer spam.

You don't need to build a massive army to counter 88s. By the time they arrive you already have one. 2 snipers, an almost essential component against defensive players anyway because of zombie grenspam, instantly neuter the 88 and leave it vulnerable to an infantry or tank rush. Arty from infantry doc, which you will probably go against defensive players, means almost certain death for the crew and vulnerability again.

Your argument of blobbing for Wehr is false. They don't receive any statistical benefit from blobbing like Brits or PE. Sometimes blobbing is a legitimate tactic against those who are ill prepared - maximising firepower at a single location. Most of the time however, dynamic play is more effective unless you lack the micro to control all your units.

Last edited April 21, 2011 at 2:12 PM by GodlikeDennis

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Hetzer spamming? Really? You must be an even worse player than I thought if you're losing to Hetzer spam.

You don't need to build a massive army to counter 88s. By the time they arrive you already have one. 2 snipers, an almost essential component against defensive players anyway because of zombie grenspam, instantly neuter the 88 and leave it vulnerable to an infantry or tank rush. Arty from infantry doc, which you will probably go against defensive players, means almost certain death for the crew and vulnerability again.

Thanks.
I didn't say I've ever lost to that, I just said it's an issue, and is annoying, because it's stupid, yet takes some time to deal with.
Surely, I'm not any kind of superb basement-dweller, but you can check it out yourself (though, seriously, you might be bored by that, since I play about 5 games a week, or even less) in about 3-4 hours from now.
As for blobbing, that was about allies, who are forced to do it against axis.

Last edited April 21, 2011 at 2:18 PM by IJoe

IJoe wrote:
Surely 88 are not the reason, why I, personally, consider axis to be OP,- it's the sum of superb armor, AT (paks and shreks), and rather sustainable infantry, which literally forces people to play "noobish" (stupid blobbing etc.), because some proper style of play becomes increasingly ineffective.
I, personally, find some particular axis units to be too spammable, while being too good. This especially, in 2v2 and larger games, truly becomes an issue (when PE starts spamming hetzers, f.e.)
If you want to make 88 more resilient to infantry, then make it less effective against armor. That story about "OK, now: build a huge army, and beat the crap out of that 88" is plenty entertaining, really.

But if you insist we can play some matches, me as allies vs. your defensive turtle wehr :)

@Darkreaver
It would be lovely, but I don't play wehr a lot, since I've discovered this mod, so, most likely, I would turn out to be an easy pray for a player, like yourself.
But I can practice a bit for a couple of weeks, if you're not in a hurry, that is. I'll even spend the entire coming weekend (that means, I'll play about 20-30 games) doing that.

staying cool guys :)

IJoe is not a only-pro-UdSSR fanboy, he is quite neutral. Even with this flag in his signature ;)

imo balane is quite ok as it is, but if you dont pwn the wehrmacht in the early or mid game - a well skilled player will always steamroll you. But guess thats not an balance issue, its the way you shouldnt fight the axis.
(that does usually not count for the UdSSR)

IJoe wrote:
@Darkreaver
It would be lovely, but I don't play wehr a lot, since I've discovered this mod, so, most likely, I would turn out to be an easy pray for a player, like yourself.
But I can practice a bit for a couple of weeks, if you're not in a hurry, that is. I'll even spend the entire coming weekend (that means, I'll play about 20-30 games) doing that.

Sure, I'm fine with that and it's completely legit thing to do. Player skills actually play a huge role, so getting some equal skilled players to show something is always the most effective.

all I have to say: GL HF :)

Someone else here who can turtle with Wehrmacht?

Venoxxis wrote:
staying cool guys :)

IJoe is not a only-pro-UdSSR fanboy, he is quite neutral. Even with this flag in his signature ;)

Yeye, no offense taken. I just want to show that there's nothing hard to deal with a camping wehr. Unless he's really, really good at it - which means he's playing better than me and thus I loose he wins.

It's just that one question you have to answer if you're playing allies:

What do you fear more?

King Tiger + Firestorm on your AT- guns

or

Eighty-Eight + 2 bunkers somewhere on a VP and an occassional registered arty strike?

I for myself fear King Tiger + firestorm. What's your fear?

Last edited April 21, 2011 at 2:41 PM by dArCReAvEr

Did you guys know what Flaks are for? Flak = Flugabwehrkanone = AA. That means that they weren't made to destroy tanks & infantry. They were made to stand behind the lines and hold of planes which are incoming. Only the PE base flaks should get elite armour. The others not.

post removed, I'm writing this as a pm.

Last edited April 21, 2011 at 2:51 PM by dArCReAvEr

Okay, aliright i see you take it in the right way :)

dArCReAvEr wrote:
It's just that one question you have to answer if you're playing allies:

What do you fear more?

King Tiger + Firestorm on your AT- guns

or

Eighty-Eight + 2 bunkers somewhere on a VP and an occassional registered arty strike?

I for myself fear King Tiger + firestorm. What's your fear?

KT usually, because of the terror doctrine ;)
Tigers can be madass in the right hands, but the 88 does not compete with them.
Im also neutral to the topic, the 88 is very powerfull, but there is an issue he is right. If its enough of an issue to make an fix, i dunno.


Best regards

@dArCReAvEr
This idea sounds interesting.

walki1 wrote:
Did you guys know what Flaks are for? Flak = Flugabwehrkanone = AA. That means that they weren't made to destroy tanks & infantry. They were made to stand behind the lines and hold of planes which are incoming. Only the PE base flaks should get elite armour. The others not.

Oh thanks, but they also had an impecable record as being used as artillery and in the anti-tank role in every theater the Germans fought in.

Griptonix wrote:oh thanks, but they also had an impecable record as being used as artillery and in the anti-tank role in every theater the Germans fought in.

Sure they had, I already wrote him a PM, no need to further to go into history offtopic.

As this is strictly balance discussion, please refrain from any reference to 'history as per the rules.

On that note, Flak88 is a pain to use properly but on the upside it can be extremely good at what it does. More often than not two are needed to divide attention.

Now there is nothing said by the experts about it and indeed I've seen some awesome replays recently in GR with great use of them (WH).That in tern means we're not really considering any change.

PE as a faction isn't really suitable defensive play at, which is what makes the 88 and Whirl(something) poor design choices(or rushed to use available models). Although there might be a 'choice' provided in the future, I won't discuss what it may be.

Whirl on the other hand is never seen in games as its too easy to get rid of, but then again, so is an MG bunker as it can get be flanked unlike the whirl. Whirl is more or less an MG bunker which like the 88 doesn't really fit well within PE design(in my opinion). Buffing this unit/structure may be an option in the future

walki1 wrote:
Did you guys know what Flaks are for? Flak = Flugabwehrkanone = AA. That means that they weren't made to destroy tanks & infantry. They were made to stand behind the lines and hold of planes which are incoming. Only the PE base flaks should get elite armour. The others not.

Not to get off-into-history discussions, but I want to make a quick point:

Yes the Flak88 was originally designed as a AA weapon. General Rommel of the Afrika Korps was actually one of the first to command his troops to use the Flak88 as a AT weapon, due to his lack of supplies and limited US Airborne in Africa he had quite a stockpile of Flak88s and their ammunition.

@Zerst

I would truly like you to link those replays so I can see for myself. I don't believe 88s are a valid investment except in team games, where even then they're easily countered and stolen.

Flakvierlings do awesome damage but again are countered too easily because of the low crew survivability. Emplacements tend to have less use in competitive games because it's all about mobility and maneuvering to the VPs. A flakvierling guarding a VP can just as easily be turned against you.

Id have to agree, the only time ive been 88'ed in a auto game is when I got rolled in which case I was outplayed badly anyway. So the game wasnt competitive.

i have to agree that the 88/flakvierling need some kind of buff to their crew.  even in team games (about all i play, with some of my friends, for fun) the 88's are completely pointless.  at least, if the crew could take a hit or two, they may see some use in VP games.

at the very least, this kind of buff could give a little credibility back to the defense doctrine (which has always been a joke to me, even before relic announced the latest patch.)

I would recommend to place the 88 in the back lines not at the front because of it's great range. So if you want to cover a VP place a MG bunker near it. The 88 should be behind the bunker so that it's "unreachable" for enemy infantry and make sure to place a MG team inside the bunker. So that it can cover the 88 crew in case of a airborne attack.

walki1 wrote:
I would recommend to place the 88 in the back lines not at the front because of it's great range. So if you want to cover a VP place a MG bunker near it. The 88 should be behind the bunker so that it's "unreachable" for enemy infantry and make sure to place a MG team inside the bunker. So that it can cover the 88 crew in case of a airborne attack.

True, you should not place it somewhere right next to the enemy FHQ. But still, 2 snipers instantly kill the crew, and sometimes these seconds until you've remanned it are enough for a good US player to steamroll your defenses and steal it, even if you put it in a defensive situation...

I think the first propaganda effect should be a little bit more expensive but while it's active all crews (only pak38 & 88) get elite armour.

walki1 wrote:
I think the first propaganda effect should be a little bit more expensive but while it's active all crews (only pak38 & 88) get elite armour.

That doesn't make them any better. They still die to artillery and are still oneshot by snipers. That wouldn't fix anything besides making ftfl more useless...

FTFL is an EXTREMELY good power. I believe you mean inspired assault, which is rather unimpressive.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
@Zerst

I would truly like you to link those replays so I can see for myself. I don't believe 88s are a valid investment except in team games, where even then they're easily countered and stolen.

Flakvierlings do awesome damage but again are countered too easily because of the low crew survivability. Emplacements tend to have less use in competitive games because it's all about mobility and maneuvering to the VPs. A flakvierling guarding a VP can just as easily be turned against you.

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=766516

[COH] #8 - 1vs1 - Angoville - sztefenfu (def) vs loveleiarde (air) Part 3

There where a couple of others but couldn't find them atm- sztefenfu playing really defensively

Last edited April 24, 2011 at 11:59 AM by Zerstörer

Cranialwizard wrote:
Not to get off-into-history discussions, but I want to make a quick point:

Yes the Flak88 was originally designed as a AA weapon. General Rommel of the Afrika Korps was actually one of the first to command his troops to use the Flak88 as a AT weapon, due to his lack of supplies and limited US Airborne in Africa he had quite a stockpile of Flak88s and their ammunition.

Noooo, General Rommel of the Ghost Division. He was fighting in France and he couldn't fought back the British Army with his light tanks, so he got the idea to use the Flak gun against the British Matilda tanks, and it worked out. Later in the war Rommel was sent to North Afrika. Sorry about that. :)

Anyway good wideo there Zerstörer, i like to see this type of videos, stealing a few tips and tricks, maybe it worth to make a forum topic of it.

For the 88 mm gun, I stopped using it when I built to defend the base, and an american AT gun destroyed it out from it's line of sight. \o/.

If the FlaK 88 is easy to counter with snipers or artillery that's because it's such a powerful counter to tanks, right?

But it's quite expensive, and with the crew so vulnerable it defeats it's positives.

Zerstörer wrote:
There where a couple of others but couldn't find them atm- sztefenfu playing really defensively

Interesting, but actually this looked like the US player NEVER encountered a 88 battery before. Those tanks rushing the 88 which was supported by another one was totally dumb and suicidal. It's just as clever as running Riflemen towards a pv4 without stickies and letting them die there.

But well, in that game the 88s played a major role, but only since the ally really didn't know what to do against them.

Yeah I can't believe that US player actually lasted that long against Sztefenfu who's a freak at CoH. He seemed awful. The flaks played a decent role, but not one that couldn't have been done by 2-3 paks. It seemed like the Ami player didn't even realise his tanks were in LoS of the flak a lot of the time. Also, mortars to counter flak with nebels around? lol

The flaks in that game were never directly threatened by infantry, so it renders the whole point of the posting pointless to our discussion.

There was another great replay I couldn't find, where the 88 did attract alot of attention and got de-crewed a few times but was so well defended that it always remained in axis hands.

Point is, I do see and understand that the damn thing gets de-crewed easier than perhaps it should ,but my fear is that if its not as vulnerable it can dominate the battlefield a bit too easily coupled with FTFL and defensive bunkers. The fact that COH experts have not addressed this indicates to me more that its not really an imbalance as things stand

Just played a Scheldt game. I was pos 6 with defensive doc. I build 2 88s vet 3. They weren't decrewed until the end of the game. The "ruled" the whole island and parts of the enemys' ammo point. That was epic. So don't be stupid cover your 88s with Grenadiers. I changed my opinion the flaks are good how they are now.

walki1 wrote:
Just played a Scheldt game.

I'm not being rude, but Scheldt is not a map to check balance.Who can make the most at/artillery and bomb the middle island the most. It simply doesn't count in the same sense as comp stomps don't count in balance talk

Scheldt is a map where going straight for vet 3 panthers and/or stukas is a legitimate tactic. I've also had 88s be a pain on scheldt but only because it's impossible to get to them on that watery death hole.

Ok back to to the topic: I just played played Red Ball Express (yes not Scheldt :P). I was going on def to "test" it out. It's a really strong doc. If you fortified the perimiter you are able to reinforce from your bunkers and also they get very strong I think (Like the bunkers from Liberation of Caen) and then I build a Flak 88 behind them (vet 3) and made sure that a MG team was sitting into the bunker in the front of the gun. When I saw green smoke I activated the ability "Defense Propaganda". Only one time they managed to "unman" the Flak but then I remaned it and see it still got vet 3 :P and the american wasted a lot of ressources.

He went airborne against a defensive player? Still not exactly a masterful balance argument.

I think he picked the easist doc :P.

walki1 wrote:
...Red Ball Express...def to "test"...you are able to reinforce ... very strong I think...Flak 88 behind them (vet 3)  ...

Well. The bunkers will be nerfed hard in 2.700 (25% more health instead of 50%).

And what else does def provide you with? 2 Artillery abilities:

Def Arty(3cp,125ammo, ony useable on buildings and flags),
Rocket Barrage(7cp,200ammo). Then a defensive bonus ability which is good, but expensive and with quite high cooldown. Oh, and the Flak of course.

Let's compare to Terror:

Terror got 2 Artillery abilities:

Firestorm (3cp, 160ammo) can be used anywhere with huge AoE and very high damage.
V1 Rocket (7cp,150ammo) quite potent, but high cooldown.

Then you also get zeal, which makes your vetted Grens into killershredders with lmg42, a forced retreat skill (which is imo same as def arty as most players just retreat when def ary comes down) for 25 ammo less than def.

And a mobile 88 (King Tiger) which is not damaged by arty and cant be decrewed.

It's just: Terror does everything Def does, just better.