Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

IJoe wrote:

Sturmovik wrote:
Well ... misunderstanding.
I agree with one thing adding another one PD-28. It's a helpful thing.

I don't, I want some suppressing unit for soviets, no matter will it be a unit, or an ability.

And i want this, but modders compare SU army in the game with GB army & other funny thing  :D :D :D
Looks like they afraid a potencial power of an army of SU complex.
They have dont mind the scale & whow intensive Eastern Battles was.

________________
For Others ... MG is not ONLY defensive weapon ... read please history & tactics ... I am tired for explain that simple war-history thing for you.

I still think to give a Maxim MG (3-4 men) unit for SU.
I can organise a voting for this. But it smell like:
1. Yes will say those, who agree with game ballance & history confirmation.
2. No will say those, who fear with rising power of SU army & review game tactics.

You can say - RKKA have enough power to compensate.
RKKA in game have a few chance with 1-2 examples of tactics in the game, with expirience, it easy to conteraction.
Looks like an anti-USSR war history act.

I am REALY HOPE, that the game is NOT ANOTHER political propaganda instrument in the Western hands.
I hope, you are smart & intelligent enough for review some places in the game.

Best regard, real Russia fan of the EF mod.

@Sturmovik - man, you should give a break this "anti-russia/anti-soviet propaganda" whining and start thinking about gameplay and balance.

Can anyone provide stats to all hand-held Machineguns of all factions? To compare their range/dps/penetration, so we can take a look and think? For now we are comparing DP to other mgs without useful knowledge.

Sturmovik wrote:

IJoe wrote:

Sturmovik wrote:
Well ... misunderstanding.
I agree with one thing adding another one PD-28. It's a helpful thing.

I don't, I want some suppressing unit for soviets, no matter will it be a unit, or an ability.

And i want this, but modders compare SU army in the game with GB army & other funny thing  :D :D :D
Looks like they afraid a potencial power of an army of SU complex.
They have dont mind the scale & whow intensive Eastern Battles was.

________________
For Others ... MG is not ONLY defensive weapon ... read please history & tactics ... I am tired for explain that simple war-history thing for you.

I still think to give a Maxim MG (3-4 men) unit for SU.
I can organise a voting for this. But it smell like:
1. Yes will say those, who agree with game ballance & history confirmation.
2. No will say those, who fear with rising power of SU army & review game tactics.

You can say - RKKA have enough power to compensate.
RKKA in game have a few chance with 1-2 examples of tactics in the game, with expirience, it easy to conteraction.
Looks like an anti-USSR war history act.

I am REALY HOPE, that the game is NOT ANOTHER political propaganda instrument in the Western hands.
I hope, you are smart & intelligent enough for review some places in the game.

Best regard, real Russia fan of the EF mod.

This is for Sturmovik only, so I apologize to all of you who cannot read this, but I'm kinda annoyed by him.

Во-первых, Моддеры очень хорошо понимают, что войну, которую Советские солдаты вели против Фашистов, была не только сложная, но и была нo была других маштаба , чем Американская и Британская. Но это ИГРА, не Историческая Симуляция. Нам нужeн баланс в Игре, а ты несёшь какую-тo чушь про Анти-Советскую пропаганду. У них (РККА) нет Пулемёта, потому что им он НЕ НУЖЕН. Это не копия Американцeв, это новая армия и новые тактики. ВСЁ.

@Cephalos

I do agree, we need stats, http://dow2.info/coh/Weapon_MG42_LMG.html for MG42 LMG
http://dow2.info/coh/Weapon_Browning_Automatic_Rifle.html for the BAR
http://dow2.info/coh/Weapon_Bren_LMG.html for the Bren

Feel free to look up anything else, I don't however know how to get DP stats

Sturmovik wrote:I am REALY HOPE, that the game is NOT ANOTHER political propaganda instrument in the Western hands.
I hope, you are smart & intelligent enough for review some places in the game.

Here the answer:

Read the second line of my signature.

Moonwalker wrote:

Sturmovik wrote:I am REALY HOPE, that the game is NOT ANOTHER political propaganda instrument in the Western hands.
I hope, you are smart & intelligent enough for review some places in the game.

Here the answer:

Read the second line of my signature.

Basically what I wrote in Russian, I just dragged it out to make him fully understand it (hopefully he did)

@Sturmovik
Please drop that "anti-whatever" propaganda crap.

No matter how many people vote for a Maxim MG team, it won't make even a slight difference on the matter; this has been told like a hundred of times:

• Soviets doesn't need a MG Team. You know why and the answer doesn't have to do with patriotic stuff.


• We don't have animations for that unit, don't you think could we at least put an MG Team as doctrinal reinforcement?


• Talking about animations, perhaps you think that weapon could be placed on a tripod, but we won't do it, AFAIK that idea is a No-No.

Ok, those seem to be the most important stats:
[name]:range, damage, accuracy [ long range/ medium range/ short range], supression[ long range/ medium range/ short range] and reload stats:

MG42: 40, 5, 0.1/ 0.3/ 0.7,1.2 /1 / 0.6 6.5-6
BAR:  35, 7, 0.2/ 0.45/ 0.75,0.002 /0.0035 / 0.0075 3.5-2.5
Bren:  35, 5, 0.175/ 0.35/ 0.65,1.5 /1 / 0.6 5
DP-28: 35, 8, 0.175/0.35/0.65, 0.0005/0.001/0.001 5

DP-28 anyone? O0

Last edited May 5, 2011 at 5:27 AM by blackbishop

cephalos wrote:
Ok, those seem to be the most important stats:
[name]:range, damage, accuracy [ long range/ medium range/ short range], supression[ long range/ medium range/ short range] and reload stats:

MG42: 40, 5, 0.1/ 0.3/ 0.7,1.2 /1 / 0.6 6.5-6
BAR:  35, 7, 0.2/ 0.45/ 0.75,0.002 /0.0035 / 0.0075 3.5-2.5
Bren:  35, 5, 0.175/ 0.35/ 0.65,1.5 /1 / 0.6 5
DP-28: 35, 8, 0.175/0.35/0.65, 0.0005/0.001/0.001 5

DP-28 anyone? O0

Uhm..maybe DP-28 should be similar at Bren?

@Cephalos
Nice work...
But the color choice makes it really hard to read, and distracts from the point.

Still, nice work!

thanks blacky  ;)

DP-28 has the biggest damage of all handheld Mgs. And really low supression rate. BAR has this problem solved by adding "supressive fire" ability.
Bren is almost the same as DP-28. I really hate copy-pasting stats...

Looks like the only way to improve effectivness of DP is to:
a) increase supression rate ( 1.0/ 0.8/ 0.4 maybe), so two DP-28 squads will gain possibilty to supress with focused fire
b) add some ability to make DP-28 supress easier ( like BAR).

Addding 3rd DP will not solve the problem. DP is a machine gun, and it's task is to supress and kill enemy infantry. As for now DP has only killing potential.

cephalos wrote:
Looks like the only way to improve effectivness of DP is to:
a) increase supression rate ( 1.0/ 0.8/ 0.4 maybe), so two DP-28 squads will gain possibilty to supress with focused fire
b) add some ability to make DP-28 supress easier ( like BAR).

Addding 3rd DP will not solve the problem. DP is a machine gun, and it's task is to supress and kill enemy infantry. As for now DP has only killing potential.

This is a nice suggestion! Just adding a third MG isn't that sinful. Buff it's supression value or add an supression ability, this will convince people of upgrading their Strelky with DP-28 more often.

As for now the only way to supress Germans with pure infantry is to spam A LOT of russians. DP usefulness will increase if it will provide useful suppressive fire. I don't mean making it as HMGs, where few bullets supress.

Maxi, remember about the fact that DP is portable weapon, and can be dropped. Like lMG42.

Yeah I do. I imagined just something like the effect that lMG42 does (though it can't be fired on the move). It's also portable and deals a lot of supression when fired. Maybe the DP shouldn't be given the supression value of the lMG42, a bit less, but two of them should be at least capable of supress the enemy.

That sounds cool:

DP-28 < lMG42
2xDP-28 > lMG42

... but with this the DPs price had to be at least 80.

Granted.

Hmm now that i look at all the stats I have to agree about increasing the suppression (but if I recall that basically what i was trolling about earlier). I just think that the DP-28 doesn't have as much suppression because in RL it didn't sound scary, at least nothing like the MG-34 or 42.

I'm still for the ability I suggested. Its really not that complex. Lock-down the squad in cover while it provides heavy suppression fire, until the time runs out and then recharge for 1 min 30 secs. Make it unusable in trenches and you have a pretty balanced ability

IJoe wrote:
3) it grants an ability, that brings more hurt than benefit (=useless, and troublesome).

It's not useless in a trench.  :)

blackbishop wrote:
@Sturmovik
Please drop that "anti-whatever" propaganda crap.

No matter how many people vote for a Maxim MG team, it won't make even a slight difference on the matter; this has been told like a hundred of times:

• Soviets doesn't need a MG Team. You know why and the answer doesn't have to do with patriotic stuff.


• We don't have animations for that unit, don't you think could we at least put an MG Team as doctrinal reinforcement?


• Talking about animations, perhaps you think that weapon could be placed on a tripod, but we won't do it, AFAIK that idea is a No-No.

Explain why SU army doesn't need an MG unit ... If that is ballance, what ballance in game procedure break the russian MG?

If the Animation is the main explanation ... there are many units in other soldiers & units of other armies in the game, that animation can be used. There might be a way to extract or merge midels with animations.
Example: Nazi grenadier with not tripoded MG-42 have a good example of animation of weeled Maxim. Mix them with other soldiers of MG unit (US or Germ) ... Moving ... Mortar unit with some corrections ... it can be a way for example.

Sturmovik wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
@Sturmovik
Please drop that "anti-whatever" propaganda crap.

No matter how many people vote for a Maxim MG team, it won't make even a slight difference on the matter; this has been told like a hundred of times:

• Soviets doesn't need a MG Team. You know why and the answer doesn't have to do with patriotic stuff.


• We don't have animations for that unit, don't you think could we at least put an MG Team as doctrinal reinforcement?


• Talking about animations, perhaps you think that weapon could be placed on a tripod, but we won't do it, AFAIK that idea is a No-No.

Explain why SU army doesn't need an MG unit ... If that is ballance, what ballance in game procedure break the russian MG?

If the Animation is the main explanation ... there are many units in other soldiers & units of other armies in the game, that animation can be used. There might be a way to extract or merge midels with animations.
Example: Nazi grenadier with not tripoded MG-42 have a good example of animation of weeled Maxim. Mix them with other soldiers of MG unit (US or Germ) ... Moving ... Mortar unit with some corrections ... it can be a way for example.

Ok, if it's so simple "mix" all this stuff, enter in Devs Team and do it.

@Sturmovik - Sov's don't need an MG team due to the massively powerful mortar.  Capture an MG42 or two, and watch every infantry squad die in a couple of shells, no matter what.  There's no reason to give the Sov's that kind of power, simply because it would COMPLETELY unbalance early/early-mid gameplay.  And if you do give them a buildable MG, then the Sov mortar becomes like Ami and Wehr mortars, and therefore cookie-cutters them.  That makes the Sov's like everyone else.

As for animations, from what i understand, they're not that easy in CoH.  If it was easy, there'd be no shortage of animators for this game.

jealco wrote:
@Sturmovik - Sov's don't need an MG team due to the massively powerful mortar.  Capture an MG42 or two, and watch every infantry squad die in a couple of shells, no matter what.  There's no reason to give the Sov's that kind of power, simply because it would COMPLETELY unbalance early/early-mid gameplay.  And if you do give them a buildable MG, then the Sov mortar becomes like Ami and Wehr mortars, and therefore cookie-cutters them.  That makes the Sov's like everyone else.

As for animations, from what i understand, they're not that easy in CoH.  If it was easy, there'd be no shortage of animators for this game.

You sure are an extremely pro gamer, if you say, that mortars can ever pay off for an HMg...  ::)
I mean, there's no way, it can ever happen, unless you're super pro, or super lame!

@Sturmovik
Soviets have more different types of infantry than other factions and also have more soldiers per squad. Add a suppressing mg to that equation and the thin balance we have now will be broken. Perhaps this is wrong but is like i see it.

Besides it's not that they need an MG team. This was already discussed in the past countless times and the answer is the same: there won't be a mg team for soviets.

About the animations @jealco explained it pretty well.

Last edited May 6, 2011 at 8:11 PM by blackbishop

blackbishop wrote:
@Sturmovik
Soviets have more different types of infantry than other factions and also have more soldiers per squad. Add a suppressing mg to that equation and the thin balance we have now will be broken.

Besides it's not that they need an MG team.

About the animations @jealco explained it pretty well.

I don't think there's a need for suppressive HMg - just some basic one, like american, but without AP rounds, with slower movement, and with slower setup time.
As for suppression, maybe some timed ability with huge cool-down? Just one per faction.

Su dont need hmg team, and there mortar is overrated anyway.

IJoe wrote:

blackbishop wrote:
@Sturmovik
Soviets have more different types of infantry than other factions and also have more soldiers per squad. Add a suppressing mg to that equation and the thin balance we have now will be broken.

Besides it's not that they need an MG team.

About the animations @jealco explained it pretty well.

I don't think there's a need for suppressive HMg - just some basic one, like american, but without AP rounds, with slower movement, and with slower setup time.
As for suppression, maybe some timed ability with huge cool-down? Just one per faction.

I would prefer a doctrinal Maxim that could kick asses XD.

I hate to get into a Soviet MG argument but why does the Maxim have to be wheeled? I mean that is just the classical image in peoples heads, they had Maxims on tripods. Either as a reward unit or a call in I would love to see this unit in game. I would prefer call in replacing the overpriced crappy maxim bunkers.

One thing we are also forgetting in the dp-28 PPSH argument is that the dp-28 soon will be dropable, making the ppsh even more likely an option because there will be no fear of the enemy picking it up.

Nope, the tripod maxim wasn't used that much and would be a last effort to put it ingame, if soviets doesn't need an mg team why we should bother. Also our plan by now is to have a wheeled Maxim not a tripod one. Besides is cooler in wheels.

Indeed, in the internal beta the DP-28 is droppable and the PTRD-41 too. But as we don't have models for those two as dropped weapons(e.g. we need a model of DP-28 lying on the ground) we are using the Bren lmg and the Boys AT rifle as placeholders.

Last edited May 6, 2011 at 9:38 PM by blackbishop

As for DP, the only good thing about it is it doesn't take all the weapon slots of the squad, so you can potentially pick up some shreks and mgs. And we all remember ppsh armed strelky can't do that (though I keep asking myself: why the hell not? Just make it a "replaceable" weapon in the settings!).
For the rest - it's rather unimpressive.

QuoteIndeed, in the internal beta the DP-28 is droppable and the PTRD-41 too. But as we don't have models for those two as dropped weapons(e.g. we need a model of DP-28 lying on the ground) we are using the Bren lmg and the Boys AT rifle as placeholders.

Really? If you can extract the model or just have the original lying around couldn't you just rotate it so it's lying down? Either by some internal CoH mechanism (of which I know nothing) or at least by a modelling program (of which I know some).

Also I'm curious how you have the Boys AT rifle. Was that a stand-in for the PTRD when it wasn't available or a throw back from an older version of the Commonwealth faction?

Thanks.

Hey, guys, back to topic please  :)

Conclusions:
1. Soviets don't need HMG
2. Soviets won't get HMG
3. DP-28 is cool
4. DP-28 is underpowered

cephalos, actually, if you don't mind, Maxim is NOT, i repeat, NOT Heavy Machine Gun.  :D :D :D

To others

Another fact.
I don't understand, earlier, what you are talking about, that the British Army in the game have not a MG!!!
Only today i play with a GB army ...
WHAT??? WHAT DO I SAY NOW? YOU DO NOT MIND?
They have a BRENT!!!
CARRIER with MG!! Soon, you can upgrade this thing with HMG!
2, pair, two MG on one amored platform can be builded from the beginning!!!
You can do anithing with this ... maneuverable defence, infantry like attack, full scale armoring attack ... this thing CAN STOP the Tiger!!!
Actually, with tactically corrected use, brent can rule the "light" battlefield.
And you know that, saying to me, that the Britains DOES NOT have MG!!!!

You can say, "RKKA have 2 light tanks ... shut up!!"
Thay have, but you must grasp a sources, build a "thing", upgrade this for LT production ... and build this ... if you still have a territories & points!!!!!

You are all saying to me that this game is only for fun??
May be you thinking, "that russians is dummy, thay can eat everything!!"
... liers & hypocrites ... on a "soft language."

Last edited May 8, 2011 at 3:24 PM by Sturmovik

Sturmovik wrote:
You are all saying to me that this game is only for fun??
May be you thinking, "that russians is dummy, thay can eat everything!!"
... liers & hypocrites ... on a "soft language."

Calm down, dude. Noone here is against the Soviet Union or Russia (well, at least the most are not) nor thinks Russians are dumb and "eat everything". I don't know if you have a complex or what, but it is not the first time that this is happening. And please stop being insulting - if you read the forum rules, you'd know why.
Noone will take you serious anymore when you argue in this way.
Thank you for accepting this. ;)

@Sturmovik
So, is the Maxim a Light Machine Gun or a Sub Machine Gun? Of course is a Heavy Machine Gun. Could you stop this attitude? Soviets won't have a HMG in their ranks, afaik no matter how you feel.

That aside, we should continue with the discussion of the DP-28 as @cephalos suggested (don't know why the Maxim thing came out btw), otherwise this thread could be closed or your OT posts deleted.

blackbishop wrote:
@Sturmovik
So, is the Maxim a Light Machine Gun or a Sub Machine Gun? Of course is a Heavy Machine Gun. Could you stop this attitude? Soviets won't have a HMG in their ranks, afaik no matter how you feel.

That aside, we should continue with the discussion of the DP-28 as @cephalos suggested (don't know why the Maxim thing came out btw), otherwise this thread could be closed or your OT posts deleted.

May be there are diffirent ways to name an MG a Heavy MG.
But, HMG is DSHK, 12,7 mm.
After all, Russians does not have a difference with light, heavy or anything else.

PD-28 - hand held MG. (Infantry unit)
Maxim - mounted MG (infantry company, battalion)
DSHK - large caliber mounted MG (-II-)
That was tactical & perpose "difference".

Actually, AK-47 in the western weapon reviews named the Machine Gun. First reason - safety lock. First position after lock is auto, then single fire.
That fact take a smile.
Mostly correct name is machine carbine. ... but Machine gun ... MG for us is DSHK, Maxim, Pecheneg ...

Last edited May 9, 2011 at 6:25 PM by Sturmovik

back on topic, I think everyone will be more than satisfied with the new DP-28's. So no need to be frantic about it, I've been there trust me ;) :)

Also I see no reasons for soviets needing a buildable HMG, steal one from wehr! :P

RedGuard wrote:
back on topic, I think everyone will be more than satisfied with the new DP-28's. So no need to be frantic about it, I've been there trust me ;) :)

Also I see no reasons for soviets needing a buildable HMG, steal one from wehr! :P

Did work the new icon for soviet HMG Team? :P

I haven't tried myself yet.

On topic:

DP-28 needs serious buff, or it will be totally unworthy this 60 mun spent on 2 machine guns. Increasing supression rate seems fair to me, how about you?

RedGuard wrote:
back on topic, I think everyone will be more than satisfied with the new DP-28's. So no need to be frantic about it, I've been there trust me ;) :)

Also I see no reasons for soviets needing a buildable HMG, steal one from wehr! :P

This.

RedGuard wrote:
back on topic, I think everyone will be more than satisfied with the new DP-28's. So no need to be frantic about it, I've been there trust me ;) :)

Also I see no reasons for soviets needing a buildable HMG, steal one from wehr! :P

1) +1

2) The shame of it all! (The mighty Russian steamroller... stops to steal MG42s for support) though he's right...

From what I can gather, the only real issue is whether the DP-28 changes fix the "problem) i.e.

cephalos wrote:
Hey, guys, back to topic please  :)

Conclusions:
1. Soviets don't need HMG
2. Soviets won't get HMG
3. DP-28 is cool
4. DP-28 is underpowered

As the hold ground ability is told to be useless, so why bother to keep them. Yes... my idead could be same like some guys above, just abandon it, make a new ability that the Dp-28 squad can suppressed and pin down enemy inf immediately in a very short time to make room for a ppsh's charge. Make the DP both more tatical and useful. Why we have to think that LMG is for defense anyway, doese it sound like "Brit is a defensive faction"?

^^all of that has been re-worked

good to know  :)