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Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Red Army Suggestions

#62251

Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

How about upgrading the stand ground ability of DP-28 squads to massively improve MG accuracy as well as the current benefits (which currently aren't enough to warrant losing all movement). Thoughts?
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#62258

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

I would add it the re-newed (by the Relic's "final patch") G-43 "focus fire" ability (pin the enemy infantry down for 5 sec.)
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#62264

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

IJoe wrote:
I would add it the re-newed (by the Relic's "final patch") G-43 "focus fire" ability (pin the enemy infantry down for 5 sec.)


Does that only work against one infantry unit at a time? If so, that might be no good for a mid- to late-game ability.

I like Godlike's suggestion because then you could really use it to lock down an area, as long as it doesn't instamulch enemy squads.
Steam
CoH name: totalrecall
#62270

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

SnappingTurtle wrote:
IJoe wrote:
I would add it the re-newed (by the Relic's "final patch") G-43 "focus fire" ability (pin the enemy infantry down for 5 sec.)


Does that only work against one infantry unit at a time? If so, that might be no good for a mid- to late-game ability.

I like Godlike's suggestion because then you could really use it to lock down an area, as long as it doesn't instamulch enemy squads.

You're right, I would've extend it further, to pin all squads under its fire for a duration of 5 sec. That would punish PE mp-armed blobs (PE blob-kill-all lovers would be outraged ;D)
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Last edited March 31, 2011 at 5:01 PM by IJoe

#62291

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

IJoe wrote:
SnappingTurtle wrote:
IJoe wrote:
I would add it the re-newed (by the Relic's "final patch") G-43 "focus fire" ability (pin the enemy infantry down for 5 sec.)


Does that only work against one infantry unit at a time? If so, that might be no good for a mid- to late-game ability.

I like Godlike's suggestion because then you could really use it to lock down an area, as long as it doesn't instamulch enemy squads.

You're right, I would've extend it further, to pin all squads under its fire for a duration of 5 sec. That would punish PE mp-armed blobs (PE blob-kill-all lovers would be outraged ;D)

I dont think DP 28 needs a new ability at all, they just need a suppression buff. Right now DP 28 is a BREN with +60% dmg buff. It should suppress stronger than BAR.
My Ostheer concept.
#62293

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Suppression bonus could be granted when you use "Hold ground ability" :).
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...
#62298

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

well, I guess every player who knows that infantry in CoH loves to pointlessly run around during firefight press this ability as soon as possible to make the most of DP-28. That's not an answer to this problem.

I think that ability similar to US BAR suppressive fire could do. It could cost munitions, to make it really worth using while Soviets lack of munitions as we all know.
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#62303

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

cephalos wrote:
well, I guess every player who knows that infantry in CoH loves to pointlessly run around during firefight press this ability as soon as possible to make the most of DP-28. That's not an answer to this problem.

I think that ability similar to US BAR suppressive fire could do. It could cost munitions, to make it really worth using while Soviets lack of munitions as we all know.

The problem is that "Hold Ground" ability isn't good at all, so we said give suppress bonus to that ability, but you think it's not going to fix the problem, then you say that giving Bar's suppression fire will going to fix this?? the objective is improve "Hold Ground" ability, not discarding it and creating a new ability... at least i think that are OP's intentions and i agree that DP-28 doesn't need another ability.
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...
#62320

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Bishop explained my thoughts. It doesn't need a new ability, it just needs its current ability buffed to make it more MG like. The movement cancel is a huge drawback at the moment for only a slight decrease in received accuracy and no received suppression. This is primarily a defensive power so those attributes are rather pointless. It should make it more in line with the MGs of the other faction, being immobile and better suppression/damage, when the ability is active.

The mechanics of G43 slow are that it targets a squad independently of what the squad is actually shooting at and applies the slow effect. Meanwhile the G43 squad gets reduced accuracy and damage but can shoot at any target they wish. This is rubbish because the effect stays applied even if the affected squad runs out of range/LoS or even when the G43 squad retreats and is not firing. The slow effect also applies to retreating squads. The retail patch is somewhat addressing this problem.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#62463

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Why not to make some heavy machine gun teams?
With those soviet machine gun DP-28 teams game will be much better.
You can keep DP-28 in Sterlkys and just add that DP-28 heavy machine gun teams
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No mercy for enemies...
No mercy for Allies...
No mercy for the guys I see...
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#62501

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

well I saw in a news update that reward units is a heavy machine gun for soviets. its about time
Soviet is OP
#62579

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

That was an april fools joke, though this time there was a Photo  :o
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#62603

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Or (as Ive said many times before) just make the DP-28 upgrade cheaper (25-40ammo). Youll have a choice then, spam DP-28 or use PPSH with Mosin support.
But DP-28 should get a suppresion buff anyhow.
My Ostheer concept.
#62618

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

good idea on lowering dp-28 cost I think halfing the muni cost of it is only way to make it useful

dp-28 is a non factor in competitive games, why build it when u get bonus' for moving for armor and firepower?
Soviet is OP
#62620

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Summarizing it all up:
Obviously, as it was stated many times already, ATM DP is absolutely worthless:
1) it's the same price that ppsh,
2) it has lower firepower, than that of ppsh (squad-wise),
3) it grants an ability, that brings more hurt than benefit (=useless, and troublesome).

It would be the most satisfying and required change, it were made more suppressive.
Soviets are desperately in need of at least one viable suppressive weapon, since T-90 is no more to be that.
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#62702

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

I don't like the idea of making the two upgrades cost different amounts of munitions. The way I see it the idea of the two upgrades and the two abilities granted are offensive/defensive. Not spam/spam more of.

An extra thought on making DP28 teams more "MG-like" when standing ground is its effect on the debate about the MG nest being doctrinal. Instead of only one, doctrinal, point-defence, suppressive weapon (that doesn't require tank hall and upgrade) you have that option plus the option of turning a T2 infantry squad (same time as Ami MG if they went rax first) into something more like it, being that you choose the "defensive" squad upgrade.
Steam
CoH name: totalrecall

Last edited April 4, 2011 at 3:27 PM by SnappingTurtle

#62710

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

IMO, doctrinal Mg nest is simply shit. The only thing to discuss about one, is what to replace it with.

Hmg-like, or not, some supprsive unit is obviously necessary for the sake of castrating lame tactics of blob-rushing soviet heavy weapons with mp-armed forces under group zeal.
It's just an ugly tactic, that can be handled, but only by a superior force or priorly planned defensive positioning (placing mines, barbed wire etc.), which is not good, because a simple rushing is absolutely easy and requires no skill to perform, while holding it off does.
The possibility of having a blob suppressed, and eventually pinned will make blob-rusher think twice before sending his forces to a hopeless slaughter.
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Last edited April 4, 2011 at 4:27 PM by IJoe

#62714

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

The only thing useful for Propaganda are Kats :P... for now XD. There's a second choice for the DP-28's ability besides giving suppression, but i won't say it by now ;).
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

Last edited April 4, 2011 at 4:44 PM by blackbishop

#62715

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

SnappingTurtle wrote:
I don't like the idea of making the two upgrades cost different amounts of munitions. The way I see it the idea of the two upgrades and the two abilities granted are offensive/defensive. Not spam/spam more of.

DP-28 will still cost you. They could be cheaper (still much more expensive than 0 muni BARs) but that dosnt mean you will win a game spamming them (Jeeps are cheap but you wont win a game by spamming them) DP-28 will still be a defensive weapon becouse you cant fire DPs while move youre squad ::) (unlike BARs or Strelky without the upgrade).
My Ostheer concept.
#62723

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Well if your not interested in lowering cost an underpowered and underused weapon  why not consider buffing it? because as is now its not used competitvely and thats a shame
Soviet is OP
#62748

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

blackbishop wrote:
The only thing useful for Propaganda are Kats :P... for now XD. There's a second choice for the DP-28's ability besides giving suppression, but i won't say it by now ;).


I'm a fan of trenches personally ;) if it was between MG nest and Trenches, you'd have to take the MG Nest out. But MG nest arn't the problem, the problem is it cost WAY too much, in all aspects, Pop Count, Manpower, and Fuel.

I think you should combine the Trench and MG nest ability into one, and name it "Advanced Defenses" or something like that. Ingenery will be able to dig trenches and MG nest after the ability is unlocked. That way you'll have room for another potential ability. Provided MG nest cost are tuned down, I don't see much a problem keeping them.
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#62749

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

blackbishop wrote:
The only thing useful for Propaganda are Kats :P... for now XD.


Does that mean, you're planning on making them suck just as well as the rest of the doctrine (except for trenches, probably)  ???

Just a joke!  ;D ;D ;D
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#62785

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Prop is currently undergoing many changes to make it better overall. The changes aren't finished but they're very interesting ATM.
If you get into an argument with me, you're wrong.
#62789

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

IJoe wrote:
blackbishop wrote:
The only thing useful for Propaganda are Kats :P... for now XD.


Does that mean, you're planning on making them suck just as well as the rest of the doctrine (except for trenches, probably)  ???

Just a joke!  ;D ;D ;D

aye ;D!!!

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Prop is currently undergoing many changes to make it better overall. The changes aren't finished but they're very interesting ATM.

lol ;D

All in all, something shall be done to Hold Ground ability(DP-28), currently is useless :(.
Mors Indecepta

Might controls everything, and without strength you cannot protect anything. Let alone yourself...

Last edited April 5, 2011 at 5:05 AM by blackbishop

#65806

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Paciat wrote:
[quote author=SnappingTurtle link=topic=5526.msg62702#msg62702
DP-28 will still be a defensive weapon becouse you cant fire DPs while move youre squad ::) (unlike BARs or Strelky without the upgrade).

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#65827

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Wow this topic is from ages ago...
"Balancers are 10 a penny"
#65862

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Cranialwizard wrote:
Wow this topic is from ages ago...
It's not that old but I fail to see why it was dug up just for what appears to be a novel cover.

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#65865

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

The picture shows RL footage, depicting a trooper, firing DP on the move.
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#65903

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Does anyone use Dp28 in multiplayer games? and more specifically competitive ones?

I know I havent and I'm curious is it worth it. especially against certain troop types like mp44's?
Soviet is OP
#65915

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

if you group 2 squads of DP-28 Strelky, they perform quite well against enemy infantry.
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Lord wrote:
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#65918

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

You can also create the killer combo of one squad with DP-28 for the surpression task and two with PPSH to engage the pinned enemy in close range.
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#65926

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

^^ But if you don't bother, they do even better with PPSh.
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#66089

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

sad but true
Soviet is OP
#66095

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

PPshs are lame. DP-28 FTW!
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Lord wrote:
OSTHEER IS DONE WHEN IT'S DONE!
#67003

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

I've used them sometime against PE halftracks. I think it could be an idea to slightly increase their supression and add a 3rd DP28 to the squad.

Currently the PPsh adds like 6 smgs to the strelky squads, which perform better on the move and are overall way more efficient.
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#67156

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

not to mention vet1 strelky have airborne armor which synergises with ppsh because they gain armor bonus while on the move, and we all know ppsh are effective on the move. So why would you want your strelky standing still with a dp28 when i could be doing more damage on the move with ppsh and taking less damage as well because of airborne armor.

makes no sense i hope dp28 is buffed or another gun is added to the squad. either that or lower muni
Soviet is OP
#67384

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

PD-28 will be usefull wile the attack.
Stationary MG was effective for the defence lines, & resistance points.
PD-28 will be usefull in the infantry like attacks.
That will be intensive hard battles, like the historical battles was ...

P.S.: Stalingrad city infantry crossing Volga river for landing (incompetently showing by western historicans in the COD episode) was mainly armed with PPSh, few with PD-28 & Mosin rifles (for the MR support). Most of them have a small Shovel Spades as a close combat weapon. All of them have a granades.
Main  task of the Nazi was cut off units of the 62 army & surround them all. Hard battle ended with a victory by the soviet troops.
"- .... мне он тут мёртвый нужен а не пленный, бей его, пока он руки не успел поднять!!!"

Last edited May 2, 2011 at 10:33 AM by Sturmovik

#67458

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Sturmovik wrote:
P.S.: Stalingrad city infantry crossing Volga river for landing (incompetently showing by western historicans in the COD episode) was mainly armed with PPSh, few with PD-28 & Mosin rifles (for the MR support). Most of them have a small Shovel Spades as a close combat weapon. All of them have a granades.
Main  task of the Nazi was cut off units of the 62 army & surround them all. Hard battle ended with a victory by the soviet troops.


What does this have to do with the topic at hand Mr. Professional Historian?? The PD-28 as you refer to it is just the Russian transliteration of DP-28 (Тоже самое слово, в прoстых словах) Anyway we know how it is used, as the Strelky use it as you described.

The argument stands at how to change the efficiency of the DP-28 to match the PPSh-41 in efficiency as an upgrade for the Strelky and make it worth getting. Don't make useless comments.

Anyway my idea is to decrease the cost of the upgrade and provide a different ability to the current one (forget what its called since I don't get this upgrade at all).

It works as follows: When a Strelky unit is in cover of any sort or in a building, this upgrade can be activated providing unlimited amount of suppressing fire (giving suppression to the enemy units caught in it by x1.2 (or so, it was an arbitrary number so no screaming please) but forcing the Strelky to stay in place until the ability runs out of time.

Basically it would work like a short period HMG (only in cover at that) but you would have a unit that is unable to move, and thus cannot provide mobile suppression fire, and set the cool-down to about 2.5 minutes so you can't automatically move to the next choke-point and provide suppression.

This would work well with the Propaganda strategy doctrine (but disable the ability in trenches so as not to make it overpowered), and I'm sure it would find its way to work with the other doctrines as well.
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#67467

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Your idea is a rather complicated fix to a minor problem that requires a simple buff. Im supporting darc's idea of adding a 3rd dp-28 to the squad

and did the history lesson really bother you that much? :P
Soviet is OP
#67483

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Well ... misunderstanding.
I agree with one thing adding another one PD-28. It's a helpful thing.
"- .... мне он тут мёртвый нужен а не пленный, бей его, пока он руки не успел поднять!!!"
#67487

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Sturmovik wrote:
Well ... misunderstanding.
I agree with one thing adding another one PD-28. It's a helpful thing.

I don't, I want some suppressing unit for soviets, no matter will it be a unit, or an ability.
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#67512

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

give supression to a Mg team or something, or some new reward unit to come

the dp-28 however needs something more if it is ever to be of any use, and not trumped by ppsh
Soviet is OP
#67564

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

REDcommissar wrote:
Your idea is a rather complicated fix to a minor problem that requires a simple buff. Im supporting darc's idea of adding a 3rd dp-28 to the squad

and did the history lesson really bother you that much? :P


It certainly did bother me because it seemed like a nonsensical post. Anyway no matter, I apologize for overreacting I was a bit tipsy.

Anyway the problem with adding a 3rd DP is now you have 3 slower soldiers with a very limited ability to provide suppression. A buff to make it on par with the PPSh would have very limiting effect.

What I mean is that while, great you have 3 guys with DP-28s that are fine for long and mid range work, most of the later battles of the game seem to take place in close range, more movement as people start relying more on battlefield-like tactics instead of taking cover and sitting there like ducks. The PPSh forces the enemy to take the cover and fire approach, while the DP-28 lets them (enemies) move forward and when they get a bit closer it becomes painfully hard to keep the Strelky alive, because the advantage is gone. But the PPSh is perfect for attacking the guys in cover basically making it much better than the DP-28 whether there was 2, 3, or even 5.

The PPSh forces them into cover and moves up, giving no breathing room. The DP-28 (unless given a suppression buff like crazy) just lets them come closer and closer, barely suppressing them when they come within grenade range and you just lost your advantage. BOOM. A third one will not in anyway make a difference, fine perhaps a squad will be forced into suppression a second earlier but they will keep crawling until they are within grenades throw. Still a seeming wasted upgrade.

The ability I proposed creates instant suppression and forces the enemy to rethink their plan, not give them breathing room, but make them improvise, while letting your troops gain the upper hand. Of course this doesn't quite take all other things into account, in fact it leaves the Strelky open to artillery and mortars, but the main purpose of any MG is to provide suppression in some way or another and my way seems fair.
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#67566

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

but any type of MG is supposed to be defensive weapon, don't you think? Two DP squad will be as mobile as three DP squad - they just sit in cover and shoot. MGs are defensive weapons, they aren't meant to be this mobile.
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#67570

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Well sure it can be as defensive as it wants but without the right stats or a new ability the DP-28 is pretty much useless. Ask any Soviet player whether they use the PPSh or the DP and you will get PPSh as the answer 98% of the time, there is a reason for that.
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#67572

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

unless those 2% are long distance lovers, like me :) who really hate charging with SMGs forward. That's why I in 90% of my games use DP-28. They deal a bit damage ( more than BARs ?) and added to 5x12dmg Strelky rifles they creat quite deadly wall of bullets.
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Lord wrote:
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#67608

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

neosdark wrote:
Lovely, but you cannot use DPs for offense since obviously you have slower soldiers plus set-up time. I can use the PPSh for both defense and attacks, so yes you are the low percentile.


Aren't MGs squad support anyway. They are supposed to be used to cover an attack. They become redundant in the face of the PPSh, which is crude but very effective  :)
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#67609

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

Well yes if you are reling on HMG, but the LMG is supposed to be a mobile AI system. However, the DP-28 pales in comparison to the MG42 or Bren. The reason they are redundant in the face of PPSh is because the PPSh is more efficeint for the same price, plus puts out more bulllets per squad (of PPSh Strelky) than any in game MG, light or heavy.
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#67623

Re: Making DP-28s as useful as PPShs

neosdark wrote:
Well yes if you are reling on HMG, but the LMG is supposed to be a mobile AI system. However, the DP-28 pales in comparison to the MG42 or Bren. The reason they are redundant in the face of PPSh is because the PPSh is more efficeint for the same price, plus puts out more bulllets per squad (of PPSh Strelky) than any in game MG, light or heavy.


If thats the case... then it really sucks, I'll stick to PPSh [tt]...[/tt]
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