BT-T,series/SU-14/Adds?

When playing soviet faction i encoutered serious problem with early armor period.The tank hunters proved to be usefull but they arent rly most effective way to get rid of PE halftracks or StuGIV's.They can be killed and sniped by other infantry before attacking a enemy vechile.
So my proposal is adding BT tank series wich could give excellent armor support in early game period
BT tank were used in masses during 1941 and so on.
The tank would be excellent infantry supporter and in numbers of 2-3 cappable of destroying StuGIV's and other similar targets.
Something very similar to the british M3 Stuart.


A BT-2

SU-14
It ws heavily armored and fully enclosed SPG (Like hummel or priest but more armored)The soviet arty emplacements are easy to locate and destroy by counterarty (nebelwerfers,hummels etc..)
It would be a mobile piece of arty that can be call in the battlefield and return fire to the relocating hummel or stuka support rockets fire.
My arty emplacements are being destroyed fast and katyushas are too inacurrate and easy to destroy.Adding SU-14 would be a good thing and german players would lose great mobile arty and bombing advantage.


SU-14 back wiew

what do you think about it?

The BT should be a replacement for the t-90, The 2 tanks look the same and it would be good to add some Variety.

I absolutely loathe the idea of replacing units... What's the point of putting all this work into a unit, incorporating it, balancing it, only to replace it with another? Pure waste...

Replacing?why all is about replacing...adding them to soviet arsenal is the point.BT tank wouldn't be a replacement for t90 (wich proven to be piece of junk lol)
BT tank would be cheaper and sooner deployed than t90 for the soviet players to counter PE early armor.

The SU-14 would be an add not an replacement of katyusha.SU-14 Would be a good SPG but with more armor than priest or hummel.
So it would make soviet players to counterarty german hummels.

T-90 is the dual DSHK machineguns I think you mean T-70

Also the Katyusha comes as the second item on its tree a replacement SPG that could in your words counter arty a Hummel the final and most powerful unit (ignoring gained abilities) for the scorched earth tactics is not balanced.

Last edited February 9, 2011 at 1:05 PM by Raider217

King wrote:
Replacing?why all is about replacing...adding them to soviet arsenal is the point.

Replacement units are: Shimmwagon, Gwagon, Stangound etc.
The units that you can replace...

Quote
BT tank wouldn't be a replacement for t90 (wich proven to be piece of junk lol)
BT tank would be cheaper and sooner deployed than t90 for the soviet players to counter PE early armor.

It was far better than 2/3 of German tanks in 1941. ::)

Quote
The SU-14 would be an add not an replacement of katyusha.SU-14 Would be a good SPG but with more armor than priest or hummel.
So it would make soviet players to counterarty german hummels.

A 4 CP heavy gun?
How would it counterbattery Hummels if there cant be any Hummels on the field at 4CPs?

Last edited February 9, 2011 at 1:09 PM by Paciat

no no no no! Why people NEVER read what they want to put!?!??!
Quoting from Wikipedia: SU-14 - soviet PROTOTYPE never entered production.

Well, that clears that up...

Two of SU-14 were made and they served they red army until they both got in kubinka tank museum where it is displayed today.so it existed.but they werent massproduced.

Tell me again - Why do people bother with that "Wikipedia" thing?

pariah wrote:
Tell me again - Why do people bother with that "Wikipedia" thing?

Cause Its fast in use.

Paciat wrote:

pariah wrote:
Tell me again - Why do people bother with that "Wikipedia" thing?

Cause Its fast in use.

Cause they don't have so much time. And so much knowledge. Anyway, Su-14 - two produced, Maus - two produced, Sturer Emil - two produced... see the point?

Sturer Emil was a partial success with an apparent 22 kills. SU-14 was only used in the defence of Moscow, I don't know much about it, but considering it was built on a T-35 chassis I imagine it wasn't exactly mechanically reliable (which is pointless for an SPG). As much as I like obscure shit, I doubt it'll be added.

BT tanks may be added in the future, but we're not certain what role it would play.

The BT series has been discussed several times already, bust they are a great idea. Also, the devs should be with us about that idea, hell even burro likes em ;D

But same here, yet, i dont have a real good idea about the role they would play. Replacing the T70/90 wouldnt really fit, because the tanks are too different.

oha just had an idea.. replacing the t-34/76 with the BT-7, but still letting the T-34/85 be buildable after the upgrade has been researched.
-> a fast medium-light tank for the early game
-> cheaper than the T34, A LOT faster and easier to deploy
-> after the upgrade, you can still go for the good old t-34, besides the BT-7
-> would even be historically accurate, since the BT series is the forerunner of the succuessfull T-34 tank design.

BT-7 for the hall of russian steel!


Regards

Venoxxis wrote:
The BT series has been discussed several times already, bust they are a great idea. Also, the devs should be with us about that idea, hell even burro likes em ;D

But same here, yet, i dont have a real good idea about the role they would play. Replacing the T70/90 wouldnt really fit, because the tanks are too different.

oha just had an idea.. replacing the t-34/76 with the BT-7, but still letting the T-34/85 be buildable after the upgrade has been researched.
-> a fast medium-light tank for the early game
-> cheaper than the T34, A LOT faster and easier to deploy
-> after the upgrade, you can still go for the good old t-34, besides the BT-7
-> would even be historically accurate, since the BT series is the forerunner of the succuessfull T-34 tank design.

BT-7 for the hall of russian steel!


Regards

I completly agree with Venoxxis on this one, the BT-7 is one of these tanks that can be easily balanced, having a smaller gun, lighter armor, faster speed, cheaper price and pop. I just think that it will be TOO spamable. Maybe if we limit them....

Anyway, a different idea I had was to give it an upgrade (with the T34-85 upgrade), to a BT-7A, or perhaps to a BT-7M (BT-8 however you like to call it), to help keep some significance in the late game.

or use BT-7 to replace this ugly L-L sherman. Fast tank for breakthrough.... doesn't it sound good?

cephalos wrote:
or use BT-7 to replace this ugly L-L sherman. Fast tank for breakthrough.... doesn't it sound good?

+1

Although I still have hopes that the KV-1 may fill that spot but it may be destined to replace another unit :(

Raider217 wrote:

cephalos wrote:
or use BT-7 to replace this ugly L-L sherman. Fast tank for breakthrough.... doesn't it sound good?

+1

Although I still have hopes that the KV-1 may fill that spot but it may be destined to replace another unit :(

althought i like the idea, i gotta state, that the KV is too powerfull for that spot. And i would hate to see a KV nerfed to hell for the reason of balance  :-\

The idea of the team to make the upgraded tanks being buildable besides the standart tanks really gives the game completely new possibilities.

Actually, the KV would make a good reward for the T-34/85  8)
At this spot, it could be as powerfull as it was, a real dangerous tank, for both, inf and tanks.


now really, the KV and the BT-7 are a must have for the red army. Im really looking forward to the reward units of the USSR.


regards

Last edited February 10, 2011 at 11:39 AM by Venoxxis

Yeah I know I originally (<---emphasis on that) thought of it as a churchill like tank but it is so much better than that as it on occasions has taken out colomn's of Panzers "Krasnogvardeysk" is a good example, (according to Wikipedia >.>) so its probably more leaning as you said towards replacing T-34 (upgrade could be flamethrower) or even IS-2.

Last edited February 10, 2011 at 11:53 AM by Raider217

Raider217 wrote:
Yeah I know I originally (<---emphasis on that) thought of it as a churchill like tank but it is so much better than that as it on occasions has taken out colomn's of Panzers "Krasnogvardeysk" is a good example, (according to Wikipedia >.>) so its probably more leaning towards replacing T-34 (upgrade could be flamethrower) or even IS-2.

You got it.

KV's are huge 45t monsters. Shermans are jokes compared to these. It actually was a shock for the garmans facing the KV's, just like the T-34 was a shock as well.
Actually, it was one of those vehicles which did have changed the run of the war. Also, they got a lot of simbolic value, being the first real heavy tank being deployed in mass prodiction at all.


best regards

there's so many other Soviet tanks that we could make rewards for every soviet tank ingame....

cephalos wrote:
there's so many other Soviet tanks that we could make rewards for every soviet tank ingame....

SU-76 || SU-85/100
KV-1 or BT-7|| T-34, IS-2 or L-L Sherman
BT-2 or T-26 || T-70 or L-L Sherman
BA-64 || T-90
ISU-122 || ISU-152
T-28 or T-35 || KV-2

I don't remember any other proper suggestions that have been made

Last edited February 10, 2011 at 5:00 PM by Raider217

Raider217 wrote:

cephalos wrote:
there's so many other Soviet tanks that we could make rewards for every soviet tank ingame....

SU-76 || SU-85/100
KV-1 || T-34 or IS-2
BT-7 || T-70
BA-64 || T-90
ISU-122 || ISU-152

I don't remember any other proper suggestions that have been made

No tank should replace T-34 and many agreed on that.
KV-1 should replace LL Sherman.
Also who would replace IS-2 with something that is inferior in every way.

Last edited February 10, 2011 at 12:33 PM by Paciat

T-70 / T-26 - cheaper but worse armour
Ba-64 should be totally new unit
T-34 - yeah, this shouldn't be replaceable.
KV-1 - I'd suggest puting it instead IS-2, while IS-2 should go to Brekathrough doctine as call-in.
Su-76 / Su-85
ISU-152 - reward for IS-2

Um first thing that should be added is classic T-34 lol
T-34 is most produced and used in WWII (not T-34/76  or T-34/85 they are late moded versions of T-34)
An classic version of T-34 should be available to the soviet players as light armor support.
Also comparing a KV-1 to an IS2 like comparing a donkey with racing horse.KV-1 had much more weaker gunn and it was very slow ,and it doesn't have slope armor.Soviets halted the production of KV-1 in 1943 (some 5,500 made)and KV-2 (some 200 made)in 1941 after they prove to be complely weak agains new german designs (Tiger,Panther etc...) so they were used on secondary fronts for the rest of the war.
IS-2 is better in every aspect from KV-1
However KV-1 platoon reported 43 germans tanks destroyed in single day and over 135 hits on single KV-1 and none penetrated it.but it was in 1941...they were facing PzKpfwII,III,IV and StuGIII probably.But it had no chance agains german models to come.
And i bet if KV-1 is added that my panther or tiger will be knocked out by KV-1....IT IS VERY important that u wacth years where when tank prove it self KV-1 did prove it self in 1941 but cmon..it was fighting against the toys ...pzII,III etc
IS2 could kill anything (tigers,panthers,etc...)and it was very agile and hard to hit & penetrate.
Comparing KV-1 with IS2 is rly wrong.
However thats Off topic the themes are SU-14 & BT tank series

I know that KV-1 sucks comparing to IS-2. But IS-2 is better than Panther and could fight 1v1 with Tiger and win. So I see KV-1 as not-so-heavy-but-heavy tank, while IS-2 should be as powerful as Tiger I.\

BTW, Su-14 is really bad idea, while BT-7 has great +1 from me :)

cephalos wrote:
KV-1 - I'd suggest puting it instead IS-2, while IS-2 should go to Brekathrough doctine as call-in.
Su-76 / Su-85
ISU-152 - reward for IS-2

+1

cephalos wrote:
I know that KV-1 sucks comparing to IS-2. But IS-2 is better than Panther and could fight 1v1 with Tiger and win. So I see KV-1 as not-so-heavy-but-heavy tank, while IS-2 should be as powerful as Tiger I.

+1  ;D

Two wrongs don't make a right. Even if we think of adding KV-1 as reward unit for soviets, won't be for the IS-2.

I don't think the KV-1 is stronger than Panther, that's why they begin the research that eventually lead to IS-2.

If any unit should replace the IS-2 would be KV-85. However as this topic is for discussing the inclusion of the BT series, i suggest to avoid that kind of discussions.

IF BT's gonna be added make sure that they are balanced properly (it would be to unreal to see BT destroying heavy targets)
It should have similar role like puma with 50 mm gun.

offtopic(There is no way that KV-1 could ever destroy a panther unless panther is flanked on 300meters or less,while panther could destroy it with ease on 1000m or more at any point.)

neosdark wrote:
Anyway, a different idea I had was to give it an upgrade (with the T34-85 upgrade), to a BT-7A, or perhaps to a BT-7M (BT-8 however you like to call it), to help keep some significance in the late game.

The idea of having a BT-7 with an optional upgrade to a BT-7A is genius, i really like it +1!

As for the su-14, it looks cool but i'm of the opinion that at least 50 or so production models have to be created of something before you should consider it. 

Ok off topic:
Radical solution for the KV-1, have it as a replacement to the extremely broken "God of War" ability.  Also, give it the hull down ability and a possible upgrade to the main gun.  I mean the Katyushas are powerful enough as arty, it would fit in with the defensive style of the propaganda doctrine and it would remove the GOW problem.

Ok, I admit, I made a mistake. I wanted KV-85 not KV-1. Thanks Blackbishop for correction. KV-1 would be great, but it would be hard to find it a good role.

One-eye wrote:

neosdark wrote:
Anyway, a different idea I had was to give it an upgrade (with the T34-85 upgrade), to a BT-7A, or perhaps to a BT-7M (BT-8 however you like to call it), to help keep some significance in the late game.

The idea of having a BT-7 with an optional upgrade to a BT-7A is genius, i really like it +1!

As for the su-14, it looks cool but i'm of the opinion that at least 50 or so production models have to be created of something before you should consider it. 

Ok off topic:
Radical solution for the KV-1, have it as a replacement to the extremely broken "God of War" ability.  Also, give it the hull down ability and a possible upgrade to the main gun.  I mean the Katyushas are powerful enough as arty, it would fit in with the defensive style of the propaganda doctrine and it would remove the GOW problem.

lol!!! I see... so BT-7A is an artillery tank and not an AI one!!!! that explains everything!!!

cephalos wrote:
Ok, I admit, I made a mistake. I wanted KV-85 not KV-1. Thanks Blackbishop for correction. KV-1 would be great, but it would be hard to find it a good role.

:-X...

blackbishop wrote:

One-eye wrote:

neosdark wrote:
Anyway, a different idea I had was to give it an upgrade (with the T34-85 upgrade), to a BT-7A, or perhaps to a BT-7M (BT-8 however you like to call it), to help keep some significance in the late game.

The idea of having a BT-7 with an optional upgrade to a BT-7A is genius, i really like it +1!

As for the su-14, it looks cool but i'm of the opinion that at least 50 or so production models have to be created of something before you should consider it. 

Ok off topic:
Radical solution for the KV-1, have it as a replacement to the extremely broken "God of War" ability.  Also, give it the hull down ability and a possible upgrade to the main gun.  I mean the Katyushas are powerful enough as arty, it would fit in with the defensive style of the propaganda doctrine and it would remove the GOW problem.

lol!!! I see... so BT-7A is an artillery tank and not an AI one!!!! that explains everything!!!

Well i would describe it more of a mini-KV2, with much less armor and a smaller gun, but perfect for dealing with that obnoxious PE spam, but yea an arty tank is a valid description

BT-7A: artillery support version with 76.2 mm howitzer
looks good etc but i dont believe tht there was much of these(maybe couple of examples thats all).
BT role would be much better to counter early game german armor

During 1936-1937 154  BT7A were build .At the time armored company have up to 4 of them.

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Post Merge: [time]1297378877[/time]

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New animators are needed more than tanks  :'(

Last edited February 10, 2011 at 11:01 PM by Kashchei

King wrote:
BT-7A: artillery support version with 76.2 mm howitzer
looks good etc but i dont believe tht there was much of these(maybe couple of examples thats all).
BT role would be much better to counter early game german armor

According to Wikipedia (i'm aware its not the most reliable website ever) 154 BT-7A's were built so more than enough to justify them as an optional upgrade to the BT-7. 

One-eye wrote:

King wrote:
BT-7A: artillery support version with 76.2 mm howitzer
looks good etc but i dont believe tht there was much of these(maybe couple of examples thats all).
BT role would be much better to counter early game german armor

According to Wikipedia (i'm aware its not the most reliable website ever) 154 BT-7A's were built so more than enough to justify them as an optional upgrade to the BT-7.

I agree :).

Yay sombody agrees with one of my ideas for once!!!! I feel warm and fuzzy inside :)

Well that should be upgrade for BT like puma 50mm cannon.50 munition and u have it.but remember it haves very thin armor 20 mm lol at that ! (so please don't make superman of it like most of russian tanks).

Please use this topic to add your suggestions:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3161.0