AI Doctrine Usage

Being a EF player from the 1st release on, i always recognized one really annoying problem about soviet AI and the way they use their doctrinal call-ins. I opened a thread like that about a half year ago, but still, nothing has been changed.
I simply wanted to point it out again, because its maybe the worst point of the mod atm.

The problem is, that the AI prefers call in units over usual units, like tanks etc. To name a example: When the AI selected the propaganda strategy it will only spam katyushas, as soon as it can do so. Often, you will face nothing else than katyushas after he can begin to call them in. no tanks anymore and much less infantry. Now, even if you play against a expert, you just need a few armoured units and can crush the enemy, because the AI has nothing else than trucks with rockets.
A experts-AI looses this way all its power, simply because it spends all his manpower for trucks. Same counts for KV-2, these things also get spammed as hell. KV-2 are beasts, but still, its just one kind of units and its easy to crush it with another tactic. The expert should have a varity of units, and being a soviet, a lot of armour.



best regards

What i find particularly annoying is when they use a Company Commander from 1 of the Tales Of Valor campaigns...

Played on Cottbus/Jüterbog with a friend yesterday, against two normals bots, they performed pretty good until one had researched KV2, the one other Katyusha. Game went boring and we immediately crushed them because we had no fun anymore.

Same when playing against Germans (who are spamming StuHs, Stormtroopers), PE (Hetzers, Fallschirmjägers), Brits (Priests, Churchills or silly placed gliders) or Americans (Ranger, Airbornes, Calliopes). Seems like AI likes call-ins best and doesn't care about the other units anymore.

Also one thing that I've noticed is that the call-ins are stupidly manouvered into enemy territory, mostly alone, just driving from the map entry point either into no man's land or directly in your defensive lines.

Somewhere I read, that it's a hardcoded problem to solve. Hope this is wrong. If you can care about it, most EF players will be lovin you even more than they do now ;)

They don't use Fallschirmjäger to their full potential, either; They always call them from the off-map reinforcement point, rather than from buildings. But there's also a lot the A.I. doesn't use, like Booby Traps, Scorched Earth, many defensive buildings (particularly British), and they somehow use the Sector Artillery on enemy sectors, and i can't figure out how the fuck they do that...

I somewhat have to ask, what do you expect? Have you ever played CoH before EF? The AI is incredibly stupid and repetitive and has been for ages. Besides, I don't think I have ever seen a good AI in any strategy game. Sure, there a perhaps some things that could be tweaked about it but don't expect a revolution. Just play online ,it's just a lot more fun. Sure, stomping some comps on a bridge map is fun every now and then, but I reckon most people wouldn't want a smart AI because then they'd get hammered on the scheldt  ;)

You think fighting A.I.s on a bridge map is fun!? God, they are the worst maps for A.I.s! My allies will often just sit a fucking A-T gun or a tank on the bridge, preventing me from passing! I'm not big on team-killing, but at times like these i don't have much of a choice but to blow the bridge! The A.I. really needs some significant improvements. Which the A.I. mod aims to do...

That's why, when I do it, I never play with AI allies.
But anyway, the obvious solution is to play vs humans. Battling the AI in CoH will never be as good or rewarding as playing vs humans, no matter how much you improve it.

Yes, i realize that A.I. will be far inferior to humans for a while now. But the problem is that there are people like me who can't play online, so A.I.s are the best we've got. And it's dreadfully annoying that so much of the experience is left out...

pariah wrote:
Yes, i realize that A.I. will be far inferior to humans for a while now. But the problem is that there are people like me who can't play online, so A.I.s are the best we've got. And it's dreadfully annoying that so much of the experience is left out...

+1
and sometimes I find defeating annoying AI far more challenging and satysfying.

To hop onto the bandwagon, the AI generally uses a varied mix of units (up untill they get their rewardunits at least), so far the most I've seen in online games vs. humans is spamming/blobbing single units (mind you, I haven't played online a lot).
Cheers

Well if the AI unit mix is more varied then what you've seen online then you must have had some godawful matches. The AI only excels in the mass of the units and the annoying capping orders. Other than that I think it just plays awful.

Its not about the fact, that a human player may play better. Often ppl simply prefer a simply AI match, the reason therefore are quite different. Not everybody has the time to play every day one match online or even more than that, just to name an example. They want it simple and easy: join the game, and join the match.

MaxiKing6 wrote:
Played on Cottbus/Jüterbog with a friend yesterday, against two normals bots, they performed pretty good until one had researched KV2, the one other Katyusha. Game went boring and we immediately crushed them because we had no fun anymore.

This is the problem. The games are getting boring this way and are loosing their all challange.

MaxiKing6 wrote:
Same when playing against Germans (who are spamming StuHs, Stormtroopers), PE (Hetzers, Fallschirmjägers), Brits (Priests, Churchills or silly placed gliders) or Americans (Ranger, Airbornes, Calliopes). Seems like AI likes call-ins best and doesn't care about the other units anymore.

Yet i gotta state, that i didnt see such problems with relic coh AI. They like their doctrinal units, but they dont build only these. That counts especially for wehrmacht ai, these guys always go for heavy armour in the end. Doctrinal units are still a minor point of their troops. Also same counts for armour doctrine of the US, the like their calliopes, but there is still infantry and tanks around all the time. This is not the case playing against the USSR.
Correct me if im wrong, but playing against expert AI, exactly that is the case.

MaxiKing6 wrote:
[...] If you can care about it, most EF players will be lovin you even more than they do now ;)

Thats correct.



Regards

Venoxxis wrote:
Yet i gotta state, that i didnt see such problems with relic coh AI. They like their doctrinal units, but they dont build only these. That counts especially for wehrmacht ai, these guys always go for heavy armour in the end. Doctrinal units are still a minor point of their troops. Also same counts for armour doctrine of the US, the like their calliopes, but there is still infantry and tanks around all the time. This is not the case playing against the USSR.
Correct me if im wrong, but playing against expert AI, exactly that is the case.

I remember the first day of COH; the Ai wasn't spamming doctrinal unit. I've seen this only in EF.

Venoxxis wrote:
Its not about the fact, that a human player may play better. Often ppl simply prefer a simply AI match, the reason therefore are quite different. Not everybody has the time to play every day one match online or even more than that, just to name an example. They want it simple and easy: join the game, and join the match.

Well spoken.

Venoxxis wrote:

MaxiKing6 wrote:
Same when playing against Germans (who are spamming StuHs, Stormtroopers), PE (Hetzers, Fallschirmjägers), Brits (Priests, Churchills or silly placed gliders) or Americans (Ranger, Airbornes, Calliopes). Seems like AI likes call-ins best and doesn't care about the other units anymore.

Yet i gotta state, that i didnt see such problems with relic coh AI. They like their doctrinal units, but they dont build only these. That counts especially for wehrmacht ai, these guys always go for heavy armour in the end. Doctrinal units are still a minor point of their troops. Also same counts for armour doctrine of the US, the like their calliopes, but there is still infantry and tanks around all the time. This is not the case playing against the USSR.
Correct me if im wrong, but playing against expert AI, exactly that is the case.

It's not that intensive in vanilla, but it is like this. You're right about American and German armor anyway.

Come on, the AI never was and never will be a challenge. It always acts the same way. Yes, it might sometimes use different units or abilites, but contrary to a human that doesn't change a thing.It has no strat, it just randomly spams all over the place. It's not like the Terror AI plays fundamentally different to a Blitz AI. And as for the time argument, games vs Humans are generally shorter than games vs AI. Just fire up 1vs1 Automatch and you're set(Not referring to EF atm). In fact, I think most compstompers are more afraid of a challenge than looking for one.

Analpirat wrote:
Come on, the AI never was and never will be a challenge. It always acts the same way. Yes, it might sometimes use different units or abilites, but contrary to a human that doesn't change a thing.It has no strat, it just randomly spams all over the place. It's not like the Terror AI plays fundamentally different to a Blitz AI. And as for the time argument, games vs Humans are generally shorter than games vs AI. Just fire up 1vs1 Automatch and you're set(Not referring to EF atm). In fact, I think most compstompers are more afraid of a challenge than looking for one.

+1

I've heard the "I don't have time to play games vs humans" argument many times and it's frankly bs. There are plenty of terrible basic match players who are probably even worse than you stompers but still giving it a go. I feel like people who play against AI are afraid to verse humans, especially in a 1v1 situation where they feel the pressure is on.

Having worked a little more with the ai and combining EF with the advanced AI mod, there is a way to limit how much the cpu spams offmap units, and so far it has worked alright.

I also was finally able to fix the ai from suiciding katyushas, as well as making it that they dont charge KV2's into enemy tanks


i will hopefully release the new EF ai beta soon, just need to finish up a few things

When you say "release", what do you mean? Giving your work to dev, giving a link to everyone, or both...? I will be happy to test the AI, but I need to understand how I should install it.  :)

Analpirat wrote:
...In fact, I think most compstompers are more afraid of a challenge than looking for one.

Not all that simple, f.e.: I don't really care to loose (or to win), since this is only (and no more than) a game for me, BUT still I would prefer the game against some proper AI (unavailable ATM) over such with some human opponent simply out of the convenience of the first one. To name the least, when I play against AI, I can pause the game at any time and be gone for as long as I need. This is REALLY convenient, since I do have a RL with all that comes along.  ;)

Wait... So you can't pause the game in multiplayer!? That would be annoying...

pariah wrote:
Wait... So you can't pause the game in multiplayer!? That would be annoying...

You can, but who's gonna wait "'till I have some spare time" eh?

IJoe wrote:

Analpirat wrote:
...In fact, I think most compstompers are more afraid of a challenge than looking for one.

Not all that simple, f.e.: I don't really care to loose (or to win), since this is only (and no more than) a game for me, BUT still I would prefer the game against some proper AI (unavailable ATM) over such with some human opponent simply out of the convenience of the first one. To name the least, when I play against AI, I can pause the game at any time and be gone for as long as I need. This is REALLY convenient, since I do have a RL with all that comes along.  ;)

+1
When I can't play on LAN with my bros I play a quick game against the comp, pause if I have something to do, finish my work then continue. The AI is patient and ready when you are.  ;D
I tested the new AI but it still sends kamikaze call-in units from time to time. But at least it finally uses Hummels and emplacements correctly. Also, if you demolish their HQ they don't bother to rebuild it, they just gather all their units there and stand waiting for the inevitable.

I hope the question about pausing in mp was a joke. And although I have never tried it, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work (Could be possible in Humans vs AI, but certainly not in Humans vs Humans).
As to the time argument(again): If you don't care about winning or losing you can just quit when you have other things to do. If you're so busy that you can't spare the 45min max required for a really drawn out 1vs1 (20-30min more typical) then I'm afraid you'll be stuck with the retarded AI. Because I can promise you that you will never get a smart AI in CoH. Perhaps a less retarded one, but nowhere near where I'd put challenging. (And I mean challenging as a test of your skill and wit, not being overrun by an AI that has massive resource boni and thus spams you to death)

yah i know what you mean AI starts off really challenging using it's normal units, but as soon as it can i've seen the AI spam partisans when it should have made more tank hunters, or as the OP says spam katushyas, or KV2's. the really bad point is how it uses them, it just throws then straight at you, it has no concept of front lines or decent defensive strategy.

For some reason the AI doesn't go armour doctrine very often, which is odd because if it did as the soviets it would be a really tough opponent even with just the call-ins.

AI as Brits as usual is pants-on-head moronic, though to be fair i can see what it's trying to do.
as brits it makes sense to move HQ or other field truck to a forward point for faster reinforcement and increased resources, however where most people if their truck was destroyed would then send it elsewhere the AI keeps sending the truck straight to the last point regardless of whether it's suitible to hold or not, all this requires to fix is the Brit AI never send their trucks out of deployment, or not farther than one point ahead.

AI as US is usually competant, though again it relies on call-ins especially calliope and rangers.

PE AI isn't too bad, however it seems to kamikazi scout cars, rarely blobs it's infantry.

Wehr AI is pretty tough.

But one problem with all of them is they often just sit their armour (which they spam to excessive degree btw) around one point after a period of time presumably because it's coding has run it's course because it thinks it's won when it hasn't.

Battle of the bulge mod is probably more fun for battles vs AI because those call-ins are far superior to eastern front ones, trouble for that mod is balance isn't so great.

Last edited January 26, 2011 at 2:19 PM by Mad hatters in jeans

Mad wrote:
PE AI isn't too bad, however it seems to kamikazi scout cars, rarely blobs it's infantry.

If it goes AT Tactics it will spam hetzers like no other unit I have seen.

Analpirat wrote:
I hope the question about pausing in mp was a joke.

Umm... No. What's wrong with pausing multiplayer?

pariah wrote:

Analpirat wrote:
I hope the question about pausing in mp was a joke.

Umm... No. What's wrong with pausing multiplayer?

Sitting there for like 10-30 mins for player to get back, opening the door to griefing and possibly deliberately pausing till the other player(s) rage quits.

Whilst the idea is fine the people who will use the feature arent always as reliable.

Last edited January 26, 2011 at 3:01 PM by Raider217

Raider217 wrote:

pariah wrote:

Analpirat wrote:
I hope the question about pausing in mp was a joke.

Umm... No. What's wrong with pausing multiplayer?

Sitting there for like 10-30 mins for player to get back, opening the door to griefing and possibly deliberately pausing till the other player(s) rage quits.

Whilst the idea is fine the people who will use the feature arent always as reliable.

Take SC2 as an example: they've got the ability to pause the game twice for as long as 1 minute. Nothing wrong with it, I guess.
It's just that Relic never cares to make it better for the community. Well, that's my impression of it, anyway.

pariah wrote:

Analpirat wrote:
I hope the question about pausing in mp was a joke.

Umm... No. What's wrong with pausing multiplayer?

It's called Real Time strategy for a reason. If you could pause it at will it'd be almost turn-based (if you could order units around like you can in SP). Furthermore, CoH is a really fast-paced RTS with lots of things going on at the same time. If you could pause the pace would be lost, let alone the immersion. In a hectic 1vs1 when you're flanking the enemy and he doesn't notice, would you like it if he paused the game, destroying the advantage you gained by surprising him? In a 4vs4(god forbid), would you enjoy the game being paused every 5min because someone has to take a piss? Pausing a real time multiplayer game just provokes a ton of problems that can be easily avoided by not including the option to pause.
Granted, if you do it like starcraft that might be okay, but then you got these problems: how long should the pause be? because 1min won't do for most situations requiring a pause. Do you want to see ppl complaining the pause time should be extended because they pissed all over the bathroom in an attempt to make it back to the game before the pause ended?

There's a pause-breaker in SC2, and "1 minute" is just usual pause time during league matches...  ;)

I don't see what you're getting at. My point was that any time picked will be either too short or too long for most people. Therefore it is best not to overcomplicate things and refrain from adding a pause feature in an RTS where matches are seldomly over 30-45 min in length.

Analpirat wrote:
I don't see what you're getting at. My point was that any time picked will be either too short or too long for most people. Therefore it is best not to overcomplicate things and refrain from adding a pause feature in an RTS where matches are seldomly over 30-45 min in length.

Dude, Afaik, SC2 is the ONLY REAL E-SPORT GAME there is, and thus, if they've got pause there, it is, firstly, for a reason, and secondly, it's PERFECTLY OK.
Well, that's about all the point, I was trying to make.

Okay, but that's not much of an argument,is it?
Just because Blizzard did it doesn't mean it's good. And even if it fits into SC2 that doesn't mean it'll translate well into CoH. I wouldn't be astounded if that pause was only there for the SC pro haxx0rs to treat their carpal tunnels syndrome because of the ridiculous apm they produce.

We're a bit too far from doctrine usage now, don't you think?
BTW, I had my APM raise to 450 and more at times with 180-220 being the average. It's nothing tough with grid, they introduced in SC2. I mean, it's REALLY easy, for I am not a pro at all.

Red_Stinger wrote:
When you say "release", what do you mean? Giving your work to dev, giving a link to everyone, or both...? I will be happy to test the AI, but I need to understand how I should install it.  :)

i will release a link to everyone to test, and then the dev might put it in a patch once the soviet ai is more stable

Mad wrote:
For some reason the AI doesn't go armour doctrine very often, which is odd because if it did as the soviets it would be a really tough opponent even with just the call-ins.

Huh, now i actually think about it i can't remember the last time the A.I bothered to go armoured doctrine.  Actually, i can't remember ANY times the comp has gone armour.  ???

updated the ai mod for anyone interested

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=5018.0

robotnik wrote:
updated the ai mod for anyone interested

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=5018.0

Thanks a lot, man!
I am used to like your AI  ;D.

IJoe wrote:

robotnik wrote:
updated the ai mod for anyone interested

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=5018.0

Thanks a lot, man!
I am used to like your AI  ;D.

Yea indeed very nice to hear that :)
I dont have the time to try it at the moment, its really a shame.

Are they still spaming kat & KV's? even if they dont suicide them?
would really glad to know that, maybe i gonna jump in for a match on sunday.

One-eye wrote:
Actually, i can't remember ANY times the comp has gone armour.  ???

Same here! Something happened to the soviet AI. In earlier releases they loved to go armour.


And guys, please stop spaming this thread. This thread is about playing against the AI. Not about the reason therefore.


best regards

I am still trying to limit the ai's use of katyushas and KV2's but i have not been able to implement it for the soviets yet, but so far it working for the other factions doctrine call ins

robotnik wrote:
I am still trying to limit the ai's use of katyushas and KV2's but i have not been able to implement it for the soviets yet, but so far it working for the other factions doctrine call ins

Okay alright, i gotta try this out ;)
Yet the soviets dont go armour at all.  It would be also a very nice fix to see them going for armour too!


Regards

Just a few thing Robotnik: I guess you are working with the old version of EF (patch 1.2) because as soviet doctrine are still unchanged (GoW still cost 6CP, KV2 is in the last position in urban doctrine...) .

I confirm that soviet still spam katyusha and partisans, but other factions seem to be greatly improved. Thanks for your work!  :)

Red_Stinger wrote:
Just a few thing Robotnik: I guess you are working with the old version of EF (patch 1.2) because as soviet doctrine are still unchanged (GoW still cost 6CP, KV2 is in the last position in urban doctrine...) .

I confirm that soviet still spam katyusha and partisans, but other factions seem to be greatly improved. Thanks for your work!  :)

strange, as it seems like many of the other parts from 1.3 are working. i will go down the list of changes and double check them then, since i may have missed a few more. i will hopefully release a fix later today, though today is a busy day for me so i cant guarantee it