USSR OP vs Wehr

I think that this has been the impression for a while, but it was a slight advantage in the last patch so I didn't bring it up.  This patch however, I'm really starting to feel it.

I just 1v1ed (Wehr vs USSR) with a level 12 1v1 automatch ranked guy (he claimed he maxed out at level 14 1v1 at one point), and then we traded factions.  Both times the USSR user won hands down.

Its not just 1v1; Im feeling the heat in 2v2s too.  Its especially with the sniper teams and the katyshas; they are way too strong for their price.  Also I'm not sure if I read this correctly, but it seems the Commisar gives a whooping 10% bonus for every vet level. Stack that with the already strong individual vet bonuses the individual squads get, and you get a blob from hell.

Its also the same way with PE being OP against USSR, just to a much lesser extent.  USSR can still counter with the T70, but Wehr is just helpless atm.

I honestly thought 95% of USSR was fine in the last patch; all that was needed was to be changed from the last patch (1.232) was:

*Adding the recrew ability
*Nerfing the T90 suppression (the new changes from 1.30 are fine)
*Lower the crit chance of the sniper team spotter
*Changing some airborne armor back to infantry armor

*Finally, I would have suggested to just make the USSR sniper like the normal snipers.  (1 man, can camo)  Its just not fair that you work so hard to countersnipe (you have to shoot the right guy too, or else you will get instantly counter-sniped) and he just retreats and comes back.  Also the survivability of 2 men is insane.  However, people will bitch and moan about it not being special or authentic, so w/e...

If anyone is interested in seeing the 1v1 replays for balance reference, here they are.

And please, if you compstomp all the time, refrain from making any comments in this thread; its not valid.  I'm tired of arguing with noobs who play low level games all the time, and post the most in the balance forums.  It doesn't take skill to talk about balance.  Any retard with a keyboard can do that.  Peace out.

Last edited January 23, 2011 at 8:16 AM by Chancellor

Yeah, I'll be the first to bitch that sniper suggestion. Just deal with it as it is, man!
The Devs even moved cloak to vet 1, and smoke to vet 3!
What more do you want? Make them shoot real shitty (they must be dumb, after all, right?)?
Besides, looking through the changelog, 1.3 has made some major nerfs on soviets, trading it all for recrewing. So just stop whining, take a little rest before playing some more games, and see that all your problems are due to tiring out.
BTW, I noticed some severe problems with AI (any faction), so your losses in 2x2 could bear some mark of that (if you pared with AI, - sorry didn't watch your replays yet, so I'm just guessing here).

Last edited January 23, 2011 at 8:08 AM by IJoe

I don't think anything will make the devs touch the 2 man sniper squad. And I'm glad they won't because they add something interesting to the game. A bland copy paste of the American/Wehrmacht sniper would just be stupid.

Also, nerfing the T90s suppression would make it suppress absolutely nothing, as well as never actually hitting anything.

In my opinion the PE was way more OP against Soviets than Soviets ever were against the Wehr, and I know a lot of my friends agree. The fact that Soviets could be OP against Wehr now I will not deny, I still need to play the game more to comment on that.

I gotta agree with some points of chancellor in here. 10% bunus from the commando may be a bit too much indeed.

I was always thinking about the sniper teams and about a way to balance them. But yet, i didnt come up to a well suited solution. Atm they are allrounders from hell.
The fact with them being 2 man is a interesting mechanic, but the fact that this will may never get balanced should be considered as well. Also, these guys got way to powerfull abilities. I mean i love to play with them, especially with these abilities, since that is not compareable to the snipers of the other factions. They are simply completely on another powerlevel and being only 40mp more expensive. Also the Art. barrage doesnt make sense comparing the snipers with eachother. Why should a sniper have the ability to destroy emplacements? Actually you can do it with only one shot if im not mistaken here. The cooldown is a joke.


Cancellors post is entitled. Dont come up again with "stop whining" again here. First of all think neutral about what he said. And nothing else.


best regards

IJoe wrote:
The Devs even moved cloak to vet 1, and smoke to vet 3!
Besides, looking through the changelog, 1.3 has made some major nerfs on soviets, trading it all for recrewing. So just stop whining, take a little rest before playing some more games, and see that all your problems are due to tiring out.

I never understood why Sharpshooters dont have snipers armor. Their survivability can be lowered by lowering HP but snipers should be countered by SMGs and light vechicles - sniper armor is weak vs those.

The Major 10% vet bonus is IMO too strong.

DP-28 and PPSh are also too strong and expensive. Getting a global upgrade and then pay for all youre equipment costs way too much ammo. RB Strelky are now somekind of late game elite striking force.
I understand that PPSh spamming was a problem so how about making PPSh more expensive (60-75ammo) while DP-28 cheaper but not as powerfull (not more powerfull!) as BARs (20-30ammo).

Quote
BTW, I noticed some severe problems with AI (any faction)

Same here.

Venoxxis wrote:
I gotta agree with some points of chancellor in here. 10% bunus from the commando may be a bit too much indeed.

I was always thinking about the sniper teams and about a way to balance them. But yet, i didnt come up to a well suited solution. Atm they are allrounders from hell.
The fact with them being 2 man is a interesting mechanic, but the fact that this will may never get balanced should be considered as well. Also, these guys got way to powerfull abilities. I mean i love to play with them, especially with these abilities, since that is not compareable to the snipers of the other factions. They are simply completely on another powerlevel and being only 40mp more expensive. Also the Art. barrage doesnt make sense comparing the snipers with eachother. Why should a sniper have the ability to destroy emplacements? Actually you can do it with only one shot if im not mistaken here. The cooldown is a joke.


Cancellors post is entitled. Dont come up again with "stop whining" again here. First of all think neutral about what he said. And nothing else.


best regards

OK, I'll think neutral:
CC bonus used to be 15% per vet;
sharpshooters used to have cloak right away (not at vet 1, like now);
artillery barrage costs munitions 125 (it's equal to wehr's defensive arty) per personal unit upgrade;
things changed to worse for the sovs in most, but recrewing, yet now you people are saying, they are OP, and beforehand, they were somehow alright.
I'm getting confused here...

BTW, I'm not some purely soviet fanboy (I actually never liked communists), I often play as wehr as well. Yet, I don't see that hell of a change, you're talking 'bout.

If I'm not mistaking, the command squad vet bonus gave 5% per level.

At the moment 10% per level is too high IMO. 30% bonus in attack or defense is way too much. Soviet infantry get very powerful with these bonus, moreover they get veterancy faster and thus quickly became overwhelming even for upped grens.  :(

OMG!
I just checked all the previous changelogs, it actually was 5% per vet (though for quite some time now I was fairly sure it was 15%  :-[). No matter - I humbly ask your forgiveness for that unintentional mistake of mine. As for myself, I don't think, that doubling attack\defence buffs is all that deadly (no, I'm not saying it's definitely good). At least, we should give it some trial period. After all, before I got to realize my silly mistake  :-[ I didn't find myself complaining about this change, though I did play about 10 mp and 15-20 compstomp games since the time, I installed the patch. 

@Chancellor - Some interesting points. I will watch those replays at some point, I haven't played enough games with the new patch myself to get a feel for it yet.

Perhaps the reinforcement cost of the sniper squad should be put up to 200% or so, meaning that when you reinforce one man you'll be paying the same as you would for getting a new sniper squad. The advantage is in keeping the vet you've gained. Perhaps that would keep the Russian sniper unit unique, but make it less easy/cheap to keep alive. So if you countersnipe them or catch them out you will still have the same impact in MPP as from killing a US or Wehr sniper, but to get rid of the veterancy you'd have to get both men.

You are really honest IJoe, i like that.
I didnt know as well that it was nerved to 5%, but thats sound pretty much more balanced now. Imo the sniper is the outstanding troublemaker of balanced gameplay now.

IJoe wrote:
[...]
artillery barrage costs munitions 125 (it's equal to wehr's defensive arty) [...]

Do you really think that is balanced if its really equal?
- you gotta pay just once for it
- you can do it with a invisible unit
- it is non-doctrinal
- it just has a short cooldown, afterwards you can use it again and again

I really dont think there is any sign of balance left if its really equal to a doctrinal ability :)


Anyways, best regards, keep discussing!

Last edited January 23, 2011 at 3:44 PM by Venoxxis

Venoxxis wrote:
You are really honest IJoe, i like that.
I didnt know as well that it was nerved to 5%, but thats sound pretty much more balanced now. Imo the sniper is the outstanding troublemaker of balanced gameplay now.

IJoe wrote:
[...]
artillery barrage costs munitions 125 (it's equal to wehr's defensive arty) [...]

Do you really think that is balanced if its really equal?
- you gotta pay just once for it
- you can do it with a invisible unit
- it is non-doctrinal
- it just has a short cooldown, afterwards you can use it again and again

I really dont think there is any sign of balance left if its really equal to a doctrinal ability :)


Anyways, best regards, keep discussing!

You can always move your troops away from the strike area, since there is a smoke warning, and, I think, the delay of the strike is greater than that of the Command squad.
The area of the strike is really small (about a bunker size), and the strike itself doesn't destroy any structure  in one barrage. Besides, correct me if I'm wrong here, sniper team does become visible for some time, when it aims the strike.
Yes, it's a one time upgrade, but sniper team are an infantry unit, easily killed by pumas (practically on the fly), chased down by motorbykes, etc.
So making such sufficient spending also binds you to keeping them alive, which is not as easy at all times.
Anyhow, the question that keeps emerging in my mind over again is: where were all these complaints before the patch 1.3? How come, that it is now, when the sniper team is actually somewhat weakened, they became OP all of a sudden?

Last edited January 23, 2011 at 6:00 PM by IJoe

I'm not an expert, and my thoughts on the balance are only based upon some sloppy play between my friend and myself yesterday...

While the Russian sniper is still strong, I didn't have many problems with him.  First, because russia has no mg's, except doctrinally with the emplacement, their snipers are more vulnerable to overrun...if he himself is building a mass of troops, then wehr t3, puma is ideal against a sniper tech, because the first at russia will have is inaccurate AT guns, not tank hunters. 

As to the russian vet, I'm not sure how problematic it is...but I did manage to keep my enemy's vet down for a few of those games, with an early sniper to keep the commisar off the field.  He's not very spectacular out the gate any more, and late game when there are more things that can nuke him, he may lose all that vet he has accumulated.

My biggest problem with russia right now are the SU-85's, which are horribly dominant over not just vehicles but vetted grens.  I appreciate their effectiveness against stugs, and believe they should have that significant edge, so I don't have a gripe there, but given how many tools russia has, I don't see why these things regularly obliterate gren squads.  It doesn't seem like this should be their role.  between t2 and t3, the only counter to them is paks. Their anti infantry effectiveness seems too high.  I suppose grens would have a good edge upon flanking, but I think they should be effective enough against the su-85's to affect a retrograde.

IJoe wrote:
OMG!
I just checked all the previous changelogs, it actually was 5% per vet (though for quite some time now I was fairly sure it was 15%  :-[). No matter - I humbly ask your forgiveness for that unintentional mistake of mine. As for myself, I don't think, that doubling attack\defence buffs is all that deadly (no, I'm not saying it's definitely good). At least, we should give it some trial period. After all, before I got to realize my silly mistake  :-[ I didn't find myself complaining about this change, though I did play about 10 mp and 15-20 compstomp games since the time, I installed the patch. 

Waow. You just made one mistake about numbers. You dont need to apologize for that, as we are also human being (at least me  :) )

About the sniper team: well, I have to agree that the artillery strike is too powerful atm. remember that even if there is smoke, the very first shell come very quickly, and the first one is the deadlier one, as it pinn down those who survived to the explosion. Sure, these guys are vulnerable to "sniper-hunters", but as they cant cloak while moving , they are often operating with other troops, making them very hard to target.

This is from 1.30 Danov Man the Flak88 changelog.
Command Squad
- Global bonus is now 10% per level
- Veterancy 2 also gives the squad -15% received accuracy

Thats 30% at vet 3 in addition to individual vet bonuses...  I think we can do the math...

Katyshas currently hard counter infantry at a time when Wehr still highly relies on them.  It also ties into the Sniperteams too.  You're too scared to make a sniper (risking 340) to countersnipe one of theirs (risking 120ish manpower to reinforce) out of fear of:
1) shooting the spotter and instantly getting countersniped by the sniper
2) random katysha fire
If you're facing a decent player, a bike is not going to cut it.  You MUST countersnipe, and right now the balance is totally off.
The USA Callipope hard counters infantry late game (more CPs), when Wehr has other elements besides infantry to contend, and is also more expensive.  Katysha comes way too early and is relatively cheap.

Currently, it seems USSR AT capabilities are balanced, but Anti-Infantry capabilities are over the roof with its 2 man snipers, insane vet, and early katyshas.  This is why PE can still contend with USSR using its early light vehicles, but Wehr is helpless due to T1 T2 units getting hammered, and T3 is too expensive because you've basically lost the map by the time the snipers come.

This is from 1.20, the last time the Command Squad vet was touched:
Command Squad
Global infantry Veterancy Bonus provided in every Veterancy level with a choice of 'Offensive Tactics'(+5% bonus damage) or 'Defensive Tactics'(-5% received damage)
Veterancy 1: Gains barrage ability
Veterancy 2: Gains binoculars and Airborne Armour
Veterancy 3: Gains improved barrage ability
Veterancy Experience Values are 7/14/32
This was fine...I have no idea why they wanted to fxck with it.

Last edited January 23, 2011 at 6:03 PM by Chancellor

Yeah I gotta say Katyushas are insane. They come really early and are dirt cheap, you get 3 of them for what, 1050mp and 12 pop cap? And the call-in timer also runs pretty fast so you don't have to wait long for them. With their high range the spread becomes a benefit rather than a problem because 3 of them just devastate the target area. At least they're not high on armor and hp like the calliope is, but still. I guess they could do with a slight price increase (100mp more?) and come 1 cp later?

Analpirat wrote:
Yeah I gotta say Katyushas are insane. They come really early and are dirt cheap, you get 3 of them for what, 1050mp and 12 pop cap? And the call-in timer also runs pretty fast so you don't have to wait long for them. With their high range the spread becomes a benefit rather than a problem because 3 of them just devastate the target area. At least they're not high on armor and hp like the calliope is, but still. I guess they could do with a slight price increase (100mp more?) and come 1 cp later?

Same question: why are you telling all this now, not a week\month\two months ago? What was that, which had happened just lately, that all you, people, got brightened up with all these revelations?
Don't mind my irony, really,- I don't intend to insult anyone anyhow. It's just that I am truly all that astonished by all these speeches.

IJoe wrote:
Same question: why are you telling all this now, not a week\month\two months ago? What was that, which had happened just lately, that all you, people, got brightened up with all these revelations?
Don't mind my irony, really,- I don't intend to insult anyone anyhow. It's just that I am truly all that astonished by all these speeches.

The other changes that have been made in the patch could well have lots of slight effects which make particular strategies more viable or likely to happen. Maybe it's just that people have been playing more games since the latest patch and these things were always there, but people only noticed recently.

Chancellor says that he has had these kinds of feelings for a while, but they've become stronger with this patch. I don't think I've been terribly clear in the first paragraph, but what I mean is that some small changes in this patch might have an unexpected effect on other units.

For instance, say Russian infantry are better in this patch, people might need to buy less of them to be competitive on the field. Because of this they have more MPP, so they can buy some Katyushas that they wouldn't normally have bothered with. Suddenly it seems that the Katushas are OP, because people can get them easier, in turn because of a seemingly unrelated change to Russian infantry. That was just an example, I don't think that actually happened, but hopefully it gets across what I mean a bit better.

@Wilson
Well, your thread of logic appears to be flawlessly valid. Think, I am going to confide in it.
It's always strange, how some seemingly perfectly simple idea was capable of evading your mind for a while, after you've got a purely clear explanation of it by someone else.  ;)

Tentative defense of katyushas here.  They aren't really that good out the box.  With vet, yeah they're extreme, and in groups they become effective...but when that first lone kat comes out, he's not something I stress about, and I don't even find myself having to run my infantry home. 

the kats are incredibly fragile, and can be hunted down by early mid game.  I like them at the moment as is...but its early in the testing,  and I could be wrong.

another thing I forgot to mention that I did find disconcerting though, was a t90(which thankfully has been drastically nerfed in the past) driving up to my pak, and decrewing it from the front in a split second.  I don't mind at all that these little bastards are great at flanking and decrwing at guns, but this didn't flank.  I'm just surprised that the armor modifiers for the soldiers manning the pak didn't seem to help them a lick.  It seems like in any other circumstance, with any other light vehicle, that damage to the squad manning the gun is pretty hard to attain from the front, and that circling to the back is neccesary.  Not sure that this actually qualifies as a balance problem, but it was surprising.

Three months ago many people (including myself) agreed that the sharpshotter team needed to have less hp. I think this would have been a better solution than what we saw in 1.3. Althourgh the change to sniper armor, as Paciat suggest might have worked as well.
Many people belived this was a big balance problem in 1.23 and I can understand why Chancellor points out that this hasn't been fixed in the 1.3


I don't think that it is that hard to snipe the sniper instead of the spotter. just shoot the guy with the helm


They changed the command squad vet because people complained about, the global part of the Command Squad vet didn't  have enough of an impact on the game. I belive this argument was flawed becuase it didn't take into accound, how important it is to unluck the commanders special abilities. (In 1.2 he was one of the most important unit to get vet on.) But I never responede to the post. :(

lol the guy with the helm can be hard to distinguish when you are in the heat of the game, and frantically trying to countersnipe in those few seconds Mr Helmet reveals himself, while worrying about random katysha fire.

Anyhow, I think theres a problem where if you attack click on the sniper squad, Konig doesn't automatically shoot the sniper instead of the spotter, its more like a 50 50 chance or something

Finally, you're putting 340 manpower on the line, and he's putting 120.

I suggest making the sniper a higher priority target, and reducing the shared sniper team's health to that of a normal sniper.  As it currently stands, you'll rarely kill both members with a bike before they retreat to their base.

Finally, I'm not allowed to release any confidential information, but lets just say none of this is really getting fixed in the next coming patch.  There have been attempts with the Katyshas, but it fails to address the main problem that it comes to early and basically makes T2 Wehr useless.  Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the current infantry armor that the sniper team has is actually weaker than sniper armor.  The problems are not going to be directly addressed from their main problems.

Last edited January 23, 2011 at 11:29 PM by Chancellor

IJoe wrote:
You can always move your troops away from the strike area, since there is a smoke warning, and, I think, the delay of the strike is greater than that of the Command squad.
The area of the strike is really small (about a bunker size), and the strike itself doesn't destroy any structure  in one barrage. Besides, correct me if I'm wrong here, sniper team does become visible for some time, when it aims the strike.
Yes, it's a one time upgrade, but sniper team are an infantry unit, easily killed by pumas (practically on the fly), chased down by motorbykes, etc.
So making such sufficient spending also binds you to keeping them alive, which is not as easy at all times.
[...]

what i was doing, was comparing the sniper art strike to the wehrmachts def. art strike. Just like you did it before. For every art strike its always all the same, there is always a warning sign. There is nothing special about the soviets here. The delay of the strike is way to short. Usually after retreating and coming back to the front again i can call the next one in. When he comes visible, (if needed) simply press retreat. Same counts for pumas etc. a well watched sniper team (again the same prob) will never get caught by these.

IJoe wrote:
Anyhow, the question that keeps emerging in my mind over again is: where were all these complaints before the patch 1.3? How come, that it is now, when the sniper team is actually somewhat weakened, they became OP all of a sudden?

Thats a pretty good point IJoe. Reading the last balance threads i was thinking exactly the same.
I am following this mod pretty long already, and i downloaded the 1.00 the first day it was out. And rushed into the first matches. The first version were unbelievable unbalanced. It was horrible. But the dev's recognized that (actually they did know it already before the first release, at least most of them) and tried to fix the main balance issues very fast. With these being fixed in about a half year, the real balance work started.

What i mean to say, is, that after the outstanding balance issues have been fixed, the finishing touch on the balance and the soviet gameplay can be tackled finally.
Actually, there will be more and more thread like that showing up for right the same reason.

I hope that answers your question :)


best regards

Katyushas are perfectly fine IMO. They're very easily destroyed and you need at least 2 to be effective.

Snipers ARE a problem. They're simply run and gun and destroy. There's not really an art to using them like there is for normal snipers. I agree that a health nerf is in order, like we have been suggesting since the 1v1 tourney. The FOO actually has quite a long cooldown on it already but since it's free it should probably be even a bit longer. It's very easy to dodge though.

The command squad vet is also too good now. Perhaps scale up the bonus so vet 1 gives 5%, vet 2 10% and vet 3 15% (for 30% in total). That way you're more rewarded for getting a vet 3 command squad at a stage where it's far more likely for the squad to get gibbed while nerfing the early bonus.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
The command squad vet is also too good now. Perhaps scale up the bonus so vet 1 gives 5%, vet 2 10% and vet 3 15% (for 30% in total). That way you're more rewarded for getting a vet 3 command squad at a stage where it's far more likely for the squad to get gibbed while nerfing the early bonus.

30% is still a lot. Since the CS squad gets defensive bonus (-15% recived accuracy) at vet 2 and barrage and charge abilities I believe that 5% bonus at vet 1, 5% at vet 2 and 10% at vet 3 is enough.

I agree with both you (Dennis / Paciat) on most parts.  Perhaps I was a little too critical about the katyshas, but as Wilson said, its probably effected indirectly by the OP snipers and vet atm.  I still think a slight nerf to the katyshas wouldn't hurt though.

The snipers need a good solid nerfing (they honestly need to be punished more if they get countersniped), and the vet should be reverted back to 5% each level.  At vet3, 15% not counting individual vet is still a lot, but since Soviets earn their vet, it should be just fine.  Anything global over 15-18% is really too much.

Last edited January 24, 2011 at 7:25 AM by Chancellor

IJoe wrote:
Anyhow, the question that keeps emerging in my mind over again is: where were all these complaints before the patch 1.3? How come, that it is now, when the sniper team is actually somewhat weakened, they became OP all of a sudden?

Thats a pretty good point IJoe.
[/quote]
No it is not a good point.
After the 1 vs 1 tournament most people agree that the sniper needed a hp nerf. the devs said they were working on it, so every time someone brought it up the respons was "the devs are working on it." After 1.3 it is clear that they tried to fix it the wrong way. So the problenm still remains, thus Chancellor brings it up again.

Chancellor wrote:
Anyhow, I think theres a problem where if you attack click on the sniper squad, Konig doesn't automatically shoot the sniper instead of the spotter, its more like a 50 50 chance or something

It is not a 50% change. If you press the guy with the helm you kill the sniper and if you press the guy without the helm you do not kill the sniper. The same is true for all other factions. If you press the US sniper he will die, but if you press on a rifleman the rifleman will die. You can place your US sniper in between riflemen to make him harder to kill, but if you are skilled enough to press the right guy, it wouldn't help. I like that my sniper shoot the guy I press on.

Does anyone know why Russian infantry and the shapshooter team gets airborn armour at vet 1? I have not seen anyone ever sugesting this change? Can someone please inform me about the rational behind this cahnge?

SavageWorld wrote:

Does anyone know why Russian infantry and the shapshooter team gets airborn armour at vet 1? I have not seen anyone ever sugesting this change? Can someone please inform me about the rational behind this cahnge?

1) We have given higher priority so that the Soviet sniper and not the spotter gets hit. The only time where this will not happen is when the spotter is in range and the sniper isn't. But by all means if you can show me otherwise we'll have a look at it again.

2)Airborne armour is because they lack the survivability of normal sniper who cloaks and walks around armoured cars/tanks/MGs like no care in the world. You always know where the soviet snipers are which actually makes targeting them far easier than it is vs US. At mid late game a unit with sniper armour, visible for everyone to shoot at, will get obliderated in a split second.
However, as many people still find them too much of a problem we'll make a compromise and give them the sniper armour to begin with and see how that goes.

Last edited January 24, 2011 at 11:58 PM by blackbishop

Guys I think sniper armor is actually stronger than the infantry armor they start off with right now...if I recall, infantry armor was the worst armor type in the game.  Giving these guys sniper armor is actually a buff...

Also, regardless of armor type, I still think they need a good HP nerf.  For all you nay-sayers, I challenge any of you with USSR.  Its honestly not that hard to survive with the sniper team.  Put them in a house (they are much stronger than regular snipers in houses due to their extreme HP; flamer pios will die in seconds before they can even hurt them), jump from cover to cover after engagements, or just simply retreat after being counter-sniped.  It takes minimal micro to use them; and honestly, bikes aren't gonna cut it.

I also think they used to have an issue where the spotter was critical shotting like crazy, making it like a second sniper.  Not sure if this has been fixed.  If it hasn't it definately needs to be looked into.

Finally, please revert global vet back to 5% per level.  It was perfectly fine before.  I honestly don't know which noob whined about this to make a change all the way to 10% per level.

Last edited January 25, 2011 at 2:03 AM by Chancellor

The spotter's crit chance has been lowered but is still rather high. It'll take more testing to see if it needs lowering further. Sniper armour is weak to bikes and things is it not? The traditional sniper counters might be more effective that way.

Bike is useless against a good player.  He'll use mines and AT guns to protect.  Only way is to countersnipe or quickly dispose the sniper with concentrated infantry fire.  This is why I am arguing for lower health and higher manpower penalties for getting counter-sniped.

And no I don't think sniper armor is worse than infantry armor.

Anyways, I'd like to sandbox the sniper team counter-snipe scenario with you sometime.  I want to see if I click on the sniper squad Konig automatically shoots the sniper in the squad all the time.

Last edited January 25, 2011 at 2:19 AM by Chancellor

Well until we do know the difference between sniper and infantry there's not much use debating is there? Regardless, the countersniper needs to be more effective against the sniper team. Perhaps increase reinforce cost to ~200.

Chancellor wrote:
Bike is useless against a good player.  He'll use mines and AT guns to protect.  Only way is to countersnipe or quickly dispose the sniper with concentrated infantry fire.  This is why I am arguing for lower health and higher manpower penalties for getting counter-sniped.

And no I don't think sniper armor is worse than infantry armor.

Anyways, I'd like to sandbox the sniper team counter-snipe scenario with you sometime.  I want to see if I click on the sniper squad Konig automatically shoots the sniper in the squad all the time.

Since I was curious I loaded up Corsix's mod studio. Against basic Wehr and PE K98s, infantry armour is worse. The difference being that sniper armour gives a 0.75 bonus to accuracy, while infantry armour is 1 for Wehr and 1.15 for PE.

Against an MP40, the sniper is worse, having a 1 damage bonus compared to 0.75 bonus for infantry armour.

Against an MP44 there's no difference (This is the MP44 used by Knights Cross, since I can't see any others it might be the one used by Stormtroopers and Panzergrenadiers as well).

Against a bike there's a fair difference, and it's quite interesting actually. Bikes usually get a 0.75 bonus to accuracy against infantry, and a further 0.75 while moving but against snipers it's 1 for both. Meaning that bikes don't lose any accuracy while moving when firing at snipers, which I didn't know. Obviously that doesn't apply to the Soviet sniper.

So what the above might mean is that the Soviet sniper is a bit more likely to be hit by normal rifle fire, takes less damage from MP40s than a normal sniper, and is less likely to be hit by a bike than a normal sniper. Those are only a few weapons of course, but hopefully they somewhat reflect similar weapons.

Last edited January 25, 2011 at 9:50 AM by Wilson

Wilson wrote:
Since I was curious I loaded up Corsix's mod studio. Against basic Wehr and PE K98s, infantry armour is worse. The difference being that sniper armour gives a 0.75 bonus to accuracy, while infantry armour is 1 for Wehr and 1.15 for PE.

Against an MP40, the sniper is worse, having a 1 damage bonus compared to 0.75 bonus for infantry armour.

Against an MP44 there's no difference (This is the MP44 used by Knights Cross, since I can't see any others it might be the one used by Stormtroopers and Panzergrenadiers as well).

Against a bike there's a fair difference, and it's quite interesting actually. Bikes usually get a 0.75 bonus to accuracy against infantry, and a further 0.75 while moving but against snipers it's 1 for both. Meaning that bikes don't lose any accuracy while moving when firing at snipers, which I didn't know. Obviously that doesn't apply to the Soviet sniper.

So what the above might mean is that the Soviet sniper is a bit more likely to be hit by normal rifle fire, takes less damage from MP40s than a normal sniper, and is less likely to be hit by a bike than a normal sniper. Those are only a few weapons of course, but hopefully they somewhat reflect similar weapons.

Ill like to add that sharpshooters armor HP and reinforcement cost can be change. Id rather give it less HP but more toughness to long range infantry shots. One of the main Sharpshooter problems is that it can withstand (retreat very late) a MP44 rush. Bikes arent that efective too and early light tank support (SU-85) makes WH T1-T3 (quick puma) strat useless.

IMO Sharpshooter team should have sniper armor, 60HP and a 150MP reinforce cost.

Chancellor wrote:
Bike is useless against a good player.  He'll use mines and AT guns to protect.  Only way is to countersnipe or quickly dispose the sniper with concentrated infantry fire. 

That's the same issue you have with countering a US sniper. You guys need to take a step back in your quest to nerf the sniper team and think a bit more.
What you guys are suggesting is for the WH sniper to become a 'hard counter'/100% effective to the soviet sniper, since he'll always win the engagement vs a visible soviet sniper and also have the soviet sniper alot more vulnerable to everyone else cause they don't camouflage.

What you'll end up with is an unusable unit that becomes an MP sink as soon as the WH player builds a sniper. Costing the same MP and coming earlier, its hardly like a WH player can't do that already. WH sniper being one of the most usueful early units for countering the command squad

God...just give the Soviet sniper squad the ability to camo-walk like the other snipers then FFS.  Its honestly not that helpful; I don't camo that much at all when using Konig anways; just shoot and move back, shoot and move back.  Then there should be no more excuses for reenforce costs / HP nerf.

Let them camo-walk, give each member 340 reenforce cost, nerf the HP to normal sniper's.  That way if he gets countersniped it hurts as much as any other player's sniper getting killed.  But retain two man squad, so he can retreat if he wants and buy another squad member for 340 (essentially another sniper)  This way the squad can keep the vet it earned in combat.

I'm not sure why I bother posting here anymore.  Everyone knows it needs a good nerf (I'm not saying my suggestions are perfect, but a change in armor type is definately NOT enough) but devs keep being stubborn.  Listening to sh1t noobs tell them like making 10% global vet per level when 5% was perfectly fine.

I'm done talking about balance, its no use to make a point here.  You guys can just see for yourself how far the next patch "fixes" this stuff.  Peace out.

Last edited January 25, 2011 at 4:23 PM by Chancellor

Paciat wrote:
[...]
IMO Sharpshooter team should have sniper armor, 60HP and a 150MP reinforce cost.

This seems to be a nice suggestion. Change armor, nerf HP(tbd) and higher reinforce cost should make them.

@Chancellor
You should keep calm dude, if you get mad you just cloud your judgement. Remember that we should tailor soviets for the average public, not just for 100 users. Seeing that your suggestion will change completely the sniper team (supposing that you were serious), I don't think will be embraced by the team.

@Chancellor-Ok first of all dude, chill and listen to what I'm actually explaining to you(based on your suggestions). Don't throw a fit cause it doesn't help.

Do the Sharpshooters need further nerf? Yes, ofcourse, I didn't say otherwise!
But finding a proper way of nerfing them without destroying the way they play is another matter entirely. That's why bloody game design and balancing ain't easy.
I've explained that you're going too far with the nerf you're asking and most importantly, I explained WHY that was too much.

So how about, like we do, try and see if there is a better way of doing this.

The global vet bonus was not actually requested by 'noobs' like you said, but was considered by Kolaris too low...but we did go too far which is why we'll drop it to 8% AND increase the requirements to obtain vet for the command squad so that you should only get 3 levels of vet really by the time the map is crawling with vet3 grens

Last edited January 25, 2011 at 6:15 PM by Zerstörer

I still haven't had any major issues with sniper use as wehr...I AM having some major difficulties against russia though. 

I chock alot of this up to growing pains, but my friend is having a really easy time of steam rolling me with tanks at the moment. 

Are russian op's just as easy to kill as regular ops?  My impression was that they seemed harder to kill(barring flamers), and I kind of think they should be easier to kill than ops, given they automatically reinforce on the field, for no additional cost.  Also, snipers don't target units in these outposts? or was something just acting weird in my game?  Seems like a single early op is not much of a drawback for russia at the moment, and that can quickly force wehrmacht on the defensive, because now I need to prepare against early t-90s...which is not countered by grens with shreks at all, and can easily aviod or even get the better of an at gun.   

Stugs have a very temporary and not overly effective role against russian vehicles, but I guess that's no different than their role against any other faction.  They can even be effectively swarmed by a few cheap t-70's, or better and easier, one su-85 which will make short work of it.  Of course I use mines, and that's the only thing thats been getting me into late innings...but it hasn't been enough


so likely by mid  game I find myself struggling to hold on to my own resources.  the enemy has brutal early vehicles containing me, and far more mobility for point turning.  I find myself having to use a combination of t2 t3 for antivehicle defense, and mid-late game the upgraded t34's (forgot their name) are all around killers that do not die easily..pumping a few of these out does not seem to have a downside.  I've been getting the kt often, and finding that it is not much of a deterant by the time it hits.  it doesnt need to be avoided by then, or slowly harassed, just blitzed at and overwhelmed, even when I have some support. 

I'm sure that this has alot to do with some missteps on my part...I'm only comfortable with a couple wehr strats at the moment, even against vanilla factions(least played faction somehow) but without knowledge of a proper way to counter my friend's tank assembly line, he isn't having to do a lot of heavy lifting to roll me.

The only thing that i've found somewhat shocking is how powerful that air strike call-in is.  It may be a shadow of what it used to be, but it's still really good, and admittedly pretty cool the way it works...until it gets spammed at no interval over and over.  150 is the cost of a straff.  Granted, munitions upkeep may be more prohibitive for russians, and 150 may be a big number, but given my friend's blase approach to its use, it didn't seem like it was breaking his bank.  it was devistating me...it's not very contained, there's no avoiding it unless I want to abandon the field entirely.

Zerstörer wrote:
... increase the requirements to obtain vet for the command squad so that you should only get 3 levels of vet really by the time the map is crawling with vet3 grens

Don't increase the vet 1 requirement though. That one's already rather tought to get to. Increase the others though, since once you actually GET arty the kills skyrocket.

Joshua9 wrote:
... early t-90s...which is not countered by grens with shreks at all, and can easily aviod or even get the better of an at gun.   
...

For some reason, T-90s absolutely obliterate Paks from any direction. It seems like this thing has been the biggest balance problem in the history of EF. At least it's finally balanced against infantry.

@Zertsoter
What makes RMC too strong early game right now is the Fallschrimjager camo-combat thing; not so much the starting unit.  I'm not saying they shouldn't have it, because they need something to compete with vet 2 grens, but it comes too early atm.  Please check out the benefits of the combat-camo thing.  I believe it lets them crit shot every-time they shoot, as long as they are in cover...  My replay says it all.  If I didn't have the med bunker or if he was smart enough to shoot the medics, it would have been gg very very early.

What are the accuracy tables for Soviet weapons against gren elite armor?

For American and British weapons against elite armor you can check the bottom of this page: http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/portals.php?show=page&name=company-of-heroes-wehrmacht-veterancy-guide

Currently, grens get around 25% at vet 2 (I'm not sure about against Soviet weapons), +20% health at vet 3.

8% at every level means around 24% global at vet 3.  Combine that with each Soviet squad's individual vet bonuses (which are pretty big), and the burden of the Wehr player to make a precautionary PaK and lets do the math.  Making vet too hard to earn will make Soviets less competitive since it won't come in time.  Making the bonus per level too high will make it OP at vet 3.  Just make it 6-7% per level (perhaps 20% total), change the vet 1 requirement back to normal.  If Kolaris said really said 10% per level, then fine, I'm the noob here.

Whatever happens, Soviet sniper MUST get a solid nerf.  Sniper armor is not a real nerf at all.  And no, they're not useless at late game just because they can't camo, and no, Wehr sniper is not a 100% hard counter to them at all.  I have many reasons, but I'm too tired to type them all out.

I wasn't angry today; I honestly don't know why people came up with that presumption.  I just wanted to resign from writing all these thesis papers.  Its like I have to write a 5 whole paragraphs just to convince any of the devs to even consider anything.

Last edited January 26, 2011 at 3:52 AM by Chancellor

There are some Russian Units right now that just feel far too cost effective at the moment....I'm getting my ass handed to me by my friend right now over and over, so some of this might be irrational rant, but we are typically pretty balanced players, and with vanilla factions I"ve been giving him a real hard time recently.  Not so, Russia Vs Wehr. 

tank hunters are back on my most hated list.  It's pretty hilarious watching 3 of them run up to your base, shoot a few times, chuck a few anti tank grenades, and decimate everything.  I think they do too much damage to armor as well...either that or they just don't die as fast as they should to everything else.  Their range keeps them very safe from harm, and it takes a lot of armor to make them back off. I don't know what their numbers are, but I think they should suppress easier, and I think a slight range decrease is warranted.  Seems like they should compliment other anti tank, not be the soul deterrent.  They seem to make pumas a very bad choice...eat through the front armor of stugs...and upgraded, will decimate a panther.

AT gun also seems to hit hard.  I was astonished by how much damage they do to front panther armor when even tripple vetted.. 

T-90's have been mentioned...These guys won't allow for a whole lot of combined arms counters...get a volks team up close enough to faust it while your AT is shooting at it, and they will get eaten alive. Same with grens.  Obviously the damage they do to AT crews from any angle should be looked at, but I wouldn' mind a slight decrease in damage output as well.  And they do too much to buildings.

upgraded t-34's seem too good against infantry.  They alaready crush everything in their path when in teams...because they are blazing fast and nothing can get out of their way...but that's just what they don't kill with their guns...even upgraded they don't seem a lot less effective than shermans against infantry, and they are beasts against tanks.  I think they could stand to be less effective against infantry.  Russia has a lot of very powerful specialized units...it would be nice if most of them were specialized.

would be nice to see some replays of better players than myself going at it, emaybe especially some of the beta testers, just to see how these things are typically handled, because like I said, I may just be ranting after a string of losses.

Joshua9 wrote:
even upgraded they don't seem a lot less effective than shermans against infantry, and they are beasts against tanks.  I think they could stand to be less effective against infantry.

The area of effect is tha same as Shermans (76,2 same as 75mm, 85 same as 76mm) but the dmg of an 85mm is higher so a shot is more likely to get multi kills.
T34/76 gun is very inaccuarate (0,7 Short, 0,6 Medium 0,5 Long) but T-34/85 accuracy is the same as more expensive PzIV or a Sherman (1 Short, 1 Medium 0,75 Long). Both T-34 get 20% acc bonus at vet 1. How about a little accuracy nerf to T-34/85 accuracy so it would match the IS-2 acc (0,9 Short, 0,9 Medium 0,65 Long)?

How about just decrease the AoE a bit of the 85? Both variants are available at the same time anyway now.

I Agree, that would help alot.

Paciat wrote:
[...]
1. How about a little accuracy nerf to T-34/85 accuracy so it would match the IS-2 acc (0,9 Short, 0,9 Medium 0,65 Long)?

GodlikeDennis wrote:
How about just decrease the AoE a bit of the 85? Both variants are available at the same time anyway now.

I support both idea. These are the main issues in my eyes as well.


best regards

I think that the Soviet AT gun needs to be looked at again.  It has excellent range and terrifying damage.  It regularly 2 shotted my pumas.  It also costs less than the American AT gun.  I don't see much for changes to it in the 1.30 changelog.  Now that it can be recrewed, perhaps it wasn't toned down from before?  When it needed to be really good to make up for it being lost if decrewed?

boc120 wrote:
I think that the Soviet AT gun needs to be looked at again.  It has excellent range and terrifying damage.  It regularly 2 shotted my pumas.  It also costs less than the American AT gun.  I don't see much for changes to it in the 1.30 changelog.  Now that it can be recrewed, perhaps it wasn't toned down from before?  When it needed to be really good to make up for it being lost if decrewed?

Soviet AT gun requires a building, and an upgrade to be available for purchase. So I wouldn't call it  fairly cheaper than the american one.

but it's cheaper than US one. Soviet AT needs only 35 fuel to come up, while US one needs about 80 ( not sure).

IJoe wrote:

boc120 wrote:
I think that the Soviet AT gun needs to be looked at again.  It has excellent range and terrifying damage.  It regularly 2 shotted my pumas.  It also costs less than the American AT gun.  I don't see much for changes to it in the 1.30 changelog.  Now that it can be recrewed, perhaps it wasn't toned down from before?  When it needed to be really good to make up for it being lost if decrewed?

Soviet AT gun requires a building, and an upgrade to be available for purchase. So I wouldn't call it  fairly cheaper than the american one.

Wehrmacht AT-gun needs exactly the same. (upgrade+building) And its even more expensive!
And hey again IJoe, this is one of these balance issues which will show up into the future as i tried to explain to you. Balance is still far aways from perfection. Actually perfection isnt reachable by anything or anybody at all, but coming more and more close to it makes a better game.
The journey is the reward!


best regards

I'm glad i'm not the only one that thinks that at gun is scary. Range seemed crazy to me, but I just kept wondering if I was imagining it and he was using the observation ability.

I like that it comes cheap, but it should be cheap quality, a stopgap against light vehicles in conjunction with ingenery mines, as a trade off for going snipers...a mild compliment in late game to everything else russia is fielding.  Poor accuracy at long range would be suitable in my opinion.  There is an upgrade after all, that could make it a more viable weapon.  Right now every game I find myself asking my friend if he got that upgrade...answer is always no.

It could definitely just be balanced with cost, but Russia has more anti vehicle capablity than any other faction.  Su-85's are very powerful if the player goes light tanks, if he wants an infantry option, for my money, I would take tank hunters over shrekked grens any day(they seem like perpetually firedup airborne teams), if he wants a tank battle, he has upgraded t34's and the IS-2's, to say nothing of doctirnal compliments.

another thing I didn't mention about the t-90 is that it will kill a puma that isn't upgunned.  Not overly fast, and I don't think its neccesarily game breaking, but every other vehicle in that upgrade will kill a puma.  It would be nice, though perhaps a loss of some continuity, if the puma didn't have to worry about a fast t-90 as much as a fast t-70.  T-90's have a powerful anti infantry role, and given the backup within their tier, are not left to twist in the wind against vehicles.  For balance, I don't overly like that a puma will have to make a retreat against these, get some repair, and a gun upgrade, and then make it back on the field just in time to deal with the vehcile's support.