The Jagdtiger issue

Hey again folks,
this thread is about the heaviest unit in the game, which doenst feels like the heaviest yet, even because of its awesome (:o) model!

The main problem about its feeling, is its way too fast spining-around-speed. Its spining even faster than it can drive, which looks extremely unrealistic and takes the tank heavy wight away. You dont have to read the next passage to get an idea of what i mean.

(And indeed this is unrealistic: Since the tanks max. velocity Vt straight max (-intertia force [m*a] and - force of friction [2*1/2*mg*µ]) can never be the same as its spining speed (this speed is reached with the highest gear). The spining around speed being Vspin= r*ω. But this speed is not reached with the highest gear, because a tank which is spining around on the spot is usually using the 1st gear on the left track and the 1st reverse gear on the right. (in this example the tank is turning to the right).
That makes a superb high speed because we got 2 tracks turning in oppesed directions? nope. Since we got a 70t tank. ->the tank got a huge moment of inertia 'J*α'.
So we got ω=α*t. With α being a fuction of the wight, the friction, the moment of interia, and the power of the motor. (α=F(m,Fn,µ,J,P)). The actually speed is Vspin=r*ω.
-> it always will be: Vt straight max > Vspin)


Even if you dont uderstanding anything of what i explained above, you should know that this is unrealistic ;) !

I guess a balance issue was the reason for this uberturning speed. And indeed, players which are circuiting the jagdtiger got a easy run than, especially with infantry. But i guess thats okay, since a vehicle like the jagdtiger shouldnt be send all alone to the front. As a counter action you could give it a quite good area of effect against infantry, which would be pretty realistic as well since it had a 128mm shell.


Like in this old vid:(watch from 3:50 on)
Eastern Front Maps

(maybe its a bit too much here, but its just about the idea)

The idea is having a extremly unmobile vehicle, with a realistic turning speed and a very powerfull shot. The shots effect should be somewhere between tiger an pershing, but still having pretty bad accurancy compared to those. The main idea is the big explosion on the ground, which should give the player a idea of what gun he has on its tank. (ISU got compareable probs, but that should be fixxed in the new patch with its new fuction of which i heared). This idea here could solve the Jagdtigers problem.

Also to stay loyally to the wehrmacht a fliedgray skin would rock our sucks off. (themed compareable as the kingtigers)



Regards,

-V-

I agree about the skin :D! Also, a bit offtopic but PE's jagdpanzer should get a new skin as well :).

Oh God no, not physics here! :P

The new ISU shot is cool. I'd like to see it on the Jagdtiger with turnrate slowed. I would also like to see a return to grey for all western wehrmacht units and leave the camo units for the ostheer.

Feldgrey Ostheer ftw!

Hopefully the Jagdpanzer/tiger get the vanilla grey skins too.

Personally i would rather want the Production turrent KT (henschel turrent) as reward unit for the normal KT. The Jagdpazer design type of units are more a PE thing and feels less wehrmacht.

About the skin talk, i think that all vanilla reward units should have vanilla alike skins even if this means downgrade from cool camo scheme to booring stereotypical dunkelgrau.

Quoteand leave the camo units for the ostheer.

+1 Listen to tha dawg

Last edited January 6, 2011 at 7:18 PM by Snug

Snug wrote:
Personally i would rather want the Production turrent KT (henchel turrent) as reward unit for the normal KT

Whats the point?
It will have a different turret but it will be the same. ???
Stat changes should be noticable. Thats the whole point of reward units.

Quote

Quoteand leave the camo units for the ostheer.

+1 Listen to tha dawg

+1

Paciat wrote:

Snug wrote:
Personally i would rather want the Production turrent KT (henchel turrent) as reward unit for the normal KT

Whats the point?
It will have a different turret but it will be the same. ???
Stat changes should be noticable. Thats the whole point of reward units.
+1

Paciat is right about that yea. The only reason why relic took the old design is because it looks more future oriented. Feelable stat changes are a must have for reward units, yea.



God damn im so happy to see other guys getting that point about the skins. Respecting this relic design for the axis units will give us the feeling to play the 3rd official add-on to the series. And this is right what EF goes for. GG!

Chancellor wrote:
Feldgrey Ostheer ftw!

Hopefully the Jagdpanzer/tiger get the vanilla grey skins too.

Yea. Also the Jagdpanzer IV looks right now like a tank simply not fitting into the PE. fieldgray for the world!



Regards

Last edited January 6, 2011 at 4:20 PM by Venoxxis

Venoxxis wrote:
Yea. Also the Jagdpanzer IV looks right now like a tank simply not fitting into the PE. fieldgray for the world!

All the times ive used it looks like the turret seems to be... seperated and doesnt look to good hopefully fixed eventually (In other words ive barely noticed the skin problem over the model issue)

Paciat wrote:
Whats the point?
It will have a different turret but it will be the same. ???
Stat changes should be noticable. Thats the whole point of reward units.

The Henschel Turrented KingTiger is just wicked and suits the Wehr unittable. Statwise it could work out the same way as the Hetzer & Jagdpanzer IV, no roof MG and more tank destroyer focused. The Jagdtiger model is awesome, but the Jagdpanzer type of tanks are more a PE thing imo. Wehrmacht didnt need another new fancy heavy TD. 

Last edited January 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM by Snug

Snug wrote:

Paciat wrote:
Whats the point?
It will have a different turret but it will be the same. ???
Stat changes should be noticable. Thats the whole point of reward units.

The Henchell Turrented KingTiger is just wicked and suits the Wehr unittable. Statwise it could work out the same way as the Hetzer & Jagdpanzer IV, no roof MG and more tank destroyer focused. The Jagdtiger model is awesome, but the Jagdpanzer type of tanks are more a PE thing imo. Wehrmacht didnt need another new fancy heavy TD. 

Honestly, I don't think devs agree to replace the jagdtiger for the King Tiger w/ Henshell turret. Imo it's fine.

Snug wrote:
The Henchell Turrented KingTiger is just wicked and suits the Wehr unittable.

Snug got it and thats all! Replacing it isnt sensefull just as blackbiship mentioned as well.

Snug wrote:
[...] The Jagdtiger model is awesome, but the Jagdpanzer type of tanks are more a PE thing imo. Wehrmacht didnt need another new fancy heavy TD.

Well now this is really true. By the way, the Jagdtiger would make a pretty awesome reward for the jadgpather. PE Jagdtiger ftw!

Travelling through the relics forums, i figured out that there are masses of CoH player which just want one unit as a reward for the King tiger: The "Tiger Ace". The "Tiger Ace" was the erstwhile tank of the terror doctrine, which has been replaced by the KT with CoH: opposing fronts. CoH veterans may remember, it was basically a more usefull tiger tank. (For more info: http://planetcoh.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Units.Detail&id=15)

The interesting thing is, that most CoH players prefered it over the compareable slow KT. Have a look at this poll: http://www.gamereplays.org/community/Tiger_Ace_vs_King_Tiger-t349037.html

Bringing this unit back as a reward would simple raise the mods popularity in incredible highs. Especially CoH veterans would love that.


Not even talking about the skin it could use, which the whole relic forums just loves :D




They even made a model of it xD



the whole thread here: http://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=122842&page=1



Regards,

-V-

Last edited January 6, 2011 at 8:01 PM by Venoxxis

This is amazing!!! I forgot the Tiger Ace!!! shame on me :(. I think this should be considerated.

I WANNA TIGER ACE BACK!
Seriously, that's a shame on Relic that they removed one of the most characteristic and charismatic weapon.

I'd love to see that again. ;D

I'd vote for the Tiger Ace too if it also included the ToV accessories.  No point in just adding a Tiger with a different skin (even my own personal skinpack has the black ace skin already) if there's no significant changes cosmetically to differentiate the Tiger Ace from the normal Tigers.

On the issue of fieldgrey vs camo, I have always personally felt that WWII was the last modern war ever to be fought with soldiers NOT wearing camo.  Nowadays everyone and their mom wears camo, and I just think its overrated and un-traditional.

Can you honestly tell the difference between 2 army's uniforms these days?  No army has a distinct traditional color anymore!  Sure there's different types of camo, but who cares, there's no tradition behind them, whereas the stahlhelm along with fieldgrey made the Germans look distinct.  The stahlhelm and fieldgrey just makes you think "kraut!" right away once you look at them, whereas you just don't get that feeling with the camo.

Last edited January 7, 2011 at 6:28 AM by Chancellor

I would love to see the black ace, even if that was the only real difference. It looks deadly. But camo vs. grey, I completely agree with chancellor.

Chancellor wrote:
I'd vote for the Tiger Ace too if it also included the ToV accessories.  No point in just adding a Tiger with a different skin (even my own personal skinpack has the black ace skin already) if there's no significant changes cosmetically to differentiate the Tiger Ace from the normal Tigers.

On the issue of fieldgrey vs camo, I have always personally felt that WWII was the last modern war ever to be fought with soldiers NOT wearing camo.  Nowadays everyone and their mom wears camo, and I just think its overrated and un-traditional.

Can you honestly tell the difference between 2 army's uniforms these days?  No army has a distinct traditional color anymore!  Sure there's different types of camo, but who cares, there's no tradition behind them, whereas the stahlhelm along with fieldgrey made the Germans look distinct.  The stahlhelm and fieldgrey just makes you think "kraut!" right away once you look at them, whereas you just don't get that feeling with the camo.

Quoted, so people don't miss out on the opinion rant, since this was the last post of the 1st page.

Finally, to add on to the post above, with camo, it looks like your troops came out of forest huts or something, whereas fieldgrey fits in perfectly with the "war machine" feel.

Last edited January 7, 2011 at 6:45 AM by Chancellor

Chancellor really got the point. Thanks for quoting it youself, otherwise i would have done it ;) - Read his post guys, this is the reason for the feeling we like so much about CoH and the incredible importance of fieldgray skins!

TacticalNuke wrote:
I would love to see the black ace, even if that was the only real difference. It looks deadly. But camo vs. grey, I completely agree with chancellor.

A return of the "Tiger Ace" in form of the sp black tiger ace is really a badass idea. Even if we are going offtopic now, since this idea is supported so much by the forum users, i guess its okay that we go on like that!

In general:
-> Jagdtiger goes to PE as a jagdpather reward  (more armour but slower, fixed tank-gun fits better into the PE !)
-> the new reward for the kingtiger is the old favoured tiger ace!


Rergards

Quote
In general:
-> Jagdtiger goes to PE as a jagdpather reward  (more armour but slower, fixed tank-gun fits better into the PE !)
-> the new reward for the kingtiger is the old favoured tiger ace!

+1

Venoxxis wrote:
-> Jagdtiger goes to PE as a jagdpather reward  (more armour but slower, fixed tank-gun fits better into the PE !)

No, overgrown slow units fit Wehrmacht Terror better.
PE is Tunk Hunter not Tank Bunker.

Paciat wrote:

Venoxxis wrote:
-> Jagdtiger goes to PE as a jagdpather reward  (more armour but slower, fixed tank-gun fits better into the PE !)

No, overgrown slow units fit Wehrmacht Terror better.
PE is Tunk Hunter not Tank Bunker.

Thats it paciat. But terror was orgnially not slow and overgrown, it had

cephalos wrote:
[...] one of the most characteristic and charismatic weapon

in the game! The Tiger ace was the true terror of the wehrmacht. Slowmotion was brought by the kingtiger, not the terror doctrine. A comeback of this weapon would cause a stir in the whole CoH-fanbase.


Regards

+1.

lets throw some information in here:


Tiger & Tiger Ace



Tiger

Hit points: 1064
PopCap Modifier: 14

Acceleration: 2
Deceleration: 4
Rotation Speed: 23
Max Speed: 4

Turret Rotation Speed: 19
Turret Vertical Speed: 10

Veterancy:
1st  Received Damage        0.85
2nd Maximum Health       1.15  (1224 hit points)
3rd  Received Penetration 0.75



Tiger Ace:

Hit points: 1500
PopCap Modifier: 16

Acceleration: 2.2
Deceleration: 4
Rotation Speed: 30
Max Speed: 5.5

Turret Rotation Speed: 19
Turret Vertical Speed: 10

Veterancy:
No veterancy

+ slity better penetration (Distant: 0.835 | Long: 0.835 | Medium: 0.92)
+ better area of damage, making it a brute weapen against inf. (no stats found :( )




As you can see, the main difference between both vehicles is the speed. The ace has simply a great speed advantage, which gave it the ability to circuit walls of paks. Its gun made the rest.

Another interesting fact is, that a vet 3 tiger has almost better vital stats, because of its "received modifiers". But i guess thats okay, since the advantages of the ace are really very usefull. But an ace with vet would be interesting as well.. but it would need worse base stats than!



Regards

Last edited January 9, 2011 at 10:29 PM by Venoxxis

.... but Tiger Ace had most awesome vocal ever!

I would agree too with the traditional gray for tanks and uniforms and with the idea of the tiger ace.

How about the switch on installation:

* Use vCoH textures (means grey jagdpz4 and jagdtiger and all else)
or
* Use historical textures (means historical camo for every tank - even for vanilla ones)

You can choose one on install and swap them after install by copying over official texture packs?

Imo the jagdpanzer IV and the jagdtiger skins didn't fit with Wehr or PE style and perhaphs could be changed, even if that won't happen we could live with that; but I don't think devs are gonna change the skins of all vanilla units to historical ones.

Btw, EF devs started to discuss about the tiger Ace on EF.

actually the germans pioneered camo way back in WW1
sorry to bust your bubble

blackbishop wrote:
Btw, EF devs started to discuss about the tiger Ace on EF.

Hell yea. Give CoH back what terror was once and impress the CoH community with a stunner like no mod else could ever come up to.

Here we got a pretty good comparison between the KT and the Ace. Being a experienced allied player, he learned how to work with a kingtiger (in general: ignore it at first). But the ace once, brought real terror in just as his doctrine is ment to do.

2FAST4YA wrote:
[...] ''Tiger Ace vs King Tiger'' - theres one major difference between them ( its a whole goddamn sentence - sorry for that ).

KT - it rolls in at 9 CPs, its utter garbage vs infantry and infantry based AT weaponry ( rangers, paratroopers, PIATs), its being torn up by british ( 17 pounders, Fireflies ) and finally - its superior to any tank in the game but the one i mentioned ( Firefly ). Now honestly when the KT comes out ive got more things to worry about ( vet 3 gren spam, mortars, MGs ) so when i see the KT rolling in i simply ignore it ( riflemen/tommies cap points next to it with the KT helplessly trying to kill them ) until i get some sort of AT weaponry. When i do i use my infantry to chase off the KTs support troops and proceed to wrecking the KT itself.
Tiger Ace - came at 8 CPs afaik. It owned infantry, it also owned tanks due to it being the best tank in the game in 1.71. I wouldnt/couldnt ignore the Ace like i can the KT due to the simple fact that the KT cant hit my infantry while the Ace would one shot my squad... Challange coming out of sheer presence of the Ace being on the field was enough for me to eye roll the whole map looking for the red triangle in case the Ace would be used for harassing/flanking manuveurs. The Ace was what made terror doctrine unique - Aces speed made it deadly, its damage output was enough to bring infantry aswell as tanks down. It was also balanced since the Ace costed 1k manpower to call in.
[...]

Damn i really would like to face skilled players with it just for the experience  ;D


Regards

Last edited January 10, 2011 at 7:43 PM by Venoxxis

Hmmm.... so I wonder if it could be possible to make Tiger Ace reward for KT. Jagdpanther is rather impractical, and there is nothing terryfing in this 70-tonne monster.

cephalos wrote:
Hmmm.... so I wonder if it could be possible to make Tiger Ace reward for KT. Jagdpanther is rather impractical, and there is nothing terryfing in this 70-tonne monster.

No doubt its possible the model and animations are already within the game ntm voice files and the Jagdtiger can be moved to a reward unit for the JagdPanther an exchange of speed, maneuverability and powerful gun for lower speed, more health and better gun. (I'd stick with Jagdpanther however :P)

cephalos wrote:
[...] there is nothing terryfing in this 70-tonne monster.

not yet thats true, that s why i orignially opened that thread as well. But a nice splash-damage and a badass skin should solve that problem.

^ and yea, raider is right, it would make a good reward for the jagdpanther.

Regards

Last edited January 10, 2011 at 8:44 PM by Venoxxis

it would be really hard to disagree with you guys. Jagdtiger for Jagdpanther sounds great.
+1 for easily solved problem ;)

QuoteTiger Ace as Reward unit for KT
Jagdtiger as reward unit for Jagdpanther

+1

+1

Snug wrote:

QuoteTiger Ace as Reward unit for KT
Jagdtiger as reward unit for Jagdpanther

+1

+1

Paciat wrote:

Snug wrote:
Personally i would rather want the Production turrent KT (henchel turrent) as reward unit for the normal KT

Whats the point?
It will have a different turret but it will be the same. ???
Stat changes should be noticable. Thats the whole point of reward units.

The Henchel turret had better armour thickness than the porche turret so if the henchel turret was added as a reward unit the stats changes would just be more health for the KT or something. Also I'm in favor of making both the tiger ace and the henchel turret reward units of the KT but I expect the Dev's to only do one of them.

That poll was made just after OF came out I believe and everyone was very unhappy with the expansion so there was animosity toward the KT by default. I like the thing now. I actually think the elite type units should go to Blitz, to go with the Stormtrooper/Waffen SS theme and terror should stick with the experimental units.

Personally, I would give the KT slightly more AI (equiv. to P4) and give the Jagdtiger the new ISU shot but keep it where it is. Give the Black Tiger ace to Blitz with the old ace stats since it was awesome and fits with the fast moving Blitz style. Leave standard buildable Tigers (with reduced AoE splash) for the Ostheer. Once the OH is out, Blitz will need something to stand apart and be an attractive choice over the OH.

Whatever happens, the Black Tiger ace must make a return somehow.

I could live with that. I think you have a very good idea.  ;D

GodlikeDennis wrote:
That poll was made just after OF came out I believe and everyone was very unhappy with the expansion so there was animosity toward the KT by default. I like the thing now. I actually think the elite type units should go to Blitz, to go with the Stormtrooper/Waffen SS theme and terror should stick with the experimental units.

Personally, I would give the KT slightly more AI (equiv. to P4) and give the Jagdtiger the new ISU shot but keep it where it is. Give the Black Tiger ace to Blitz with the old ace stats since it was awesome and fits with the fast moving Blitz style. Leave standard buildable Tigers (with reduced AoE splash) for the Ostheer. Once the OH is out, Blitz will need something to stand apart and be an attractive choice over the OH.

Whatever happens, the Black Tiger ace must make a return somehow.

lol!... BurroDiablo!!! did you read this!? :P.

I like that idea. however the only problem about it, is that will modify Wehr faction, going against EF's policy of no chaning anything from CoH (besides the balance). So, the only choice looking from that point is replacing the King tiger with the Tiger Ace and the Jagdpanther with the Jagdtiger.

Yeah, I did... no comment...  :-X  ;)

it modifies the existing faction too much. EF should stay an high quality expansion and no usual mod. I dont think you are that kind of "we make it better than the game-developers no matter what we do"-modders. I've seen many many mods fail like that. But i guess you wont do the same mistake after what you did so far, 'cause you seem pretty seasoned for me.

blackbishop wrote:
[...] that will modify Wehr faction, going against EF's policy of no chaning anything from CoH (besides the balance). So, the only choice looking from that point is replacing the King tiger with the Tiger Ace and the Jagdpanther with the Jagdtiger.

Yea relic faction should stay as they are. btw great balance fixes, relics next balance-patch is right the same xD but you guys were faster :P
Adding an old vehicle which was orignially in the game and very popular, would make a
1) addon, no certain change for the existing factions
2) expasion, which relic should have done on their own, to satisfy the coh-fanbase


Regards,

-V-

remarkable how easy it is to image this getting its own patch as "Return of the Black Tiger" :P

The no/minimal change policy went out the window with the reward units that already modify the factions. I would argue that by adding in the Ostheer with buildable Tigers, it changes the vCoH factions by making Blitz far less attractive. The only reason to choose it realistically would be stormtroopers. Everything else holds little or no value compared to the other outstanding Wehr doctrines.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
[...] I would argue that by adding in the Ostheer with buildable Tigers, it changes the vCoH factions by making Blitz far less attractive. [...]

There has been a Lot of discussions about that already. Atm its high likely that the Tiger wont make it straight into the panzerhall of the ostheer. There been a lot of good suggestions about that to keep it out of the usual heer. For sure it will be limited, also its high likely that it will stay doctrinal. To keep the blitz tiger unique, the Ostheertiger wont have or wont have the same veterancy as the blitz-tiger. In general: it will be a weaker tiger, speaking about staying power.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
[...] The only reason to choose it realistically would be stormtroopers. Everything else holds little or no value compared to the other outstanding Wehr doctrines.

The Blitz is the most-popular wehrmacht doctrine at the moment. The Blitz doesnt have only the tiger, it has stormtroopers as you said, the very usefull granade ability, the manpower boost, and the scary blitzkrieg ability shouldnt be forgotten ;)
The defensive doctrine aways been the worst in most eyes.

Lets have a look at this poll from CoH:O. Taking into account, that the tiger has been weakened to hell in CoH Online, and got taken into a group of weaker tanks which most players actually really dont like!


Strange thing happened: they still love the blitz most. Blitz isnt just about the tiger, it has many usefull abilities which work perfectly with eachother.
The Tiger ace would be a reward unit which was once in the game. A unit created by relic, just readded because the players loved it.


Regards

So to sum up: you want to replace ordinary Blitz Tiger I ( who gets vet) with Tiger Ace ( who's faster, more powerful and has awesome looking but doesn't get vet)?

@cephalos: yes

@Venoxxis:

CoH:O is a completely different game with different abilites. It doesn't enter the discussion. As for Blitz being popular, this might be true for low level games but higher level automatches see far fewer Blitz players, the vast majority favouring terror. Most Blitz games are played against the brits to make use of double shreked stormie squads to bust defenses.

Blitzkrieg is a terrible ability, the fire rate being offset by the lost accuracy. For 150 munitions I would rather buy 2 shreks in the lategame.

Manpower Blitz also sucks. 150 munitions for some instant manpower but a manpower drain is not a good deal in the long run.

Assault grenades are expensive and easily retreated from, wasting 50 munitions. The stun effect is a massive gimmick and it's disgraceful how Relic changed this ability.

StuHs are usually crap and only perfect hits do any real damage. Unless you have the time to micro every shot they suck.

Tell me, have you ever seen someone go Blitz in a tourney final?

Anyway, that's just my thoughts. This thread is on the Jagdtiger not Blitz.

cephalos wrote:
So to sum up: you want to replace ordinary Blitz Tiger I ( who gets vet) with Tiger Ace ( who's faster, more powerful and has awesome looking but doesn't get vet)?

No, please read the thread, replacing the Tiger by the tiger ace would indeed be a unfair reward. The Tiger Ace belongs to the terror doctrine. And it would make a fantastic reward for the kingtiger. Have a look at the Terror doctrine, it still displays the Tiger Ace ;) Maybe you didnt know that, but in earlier days there was no kingtiger, there was only a tiger ace at the terror doctrine!

GodlikeDennis wrote:
@Venoxxis:
[...]
Tell me, have you ever seen someone go Blitz in a tourney final?
[...]

Lets have a look at the mass. The mass has other priorities than pro gamers. Also newbies gotta be respected in polls like that, just like eastern front respects the new players, even those which got trouble fighting the easy AI. And that is the only right way.


Regards!

@GodlikeDennis
I'm almost sure that will be done as Venoxis said... unless a miracle occurs.

King Tiger -> Tiger Ace
Jagdpanther -> Jagdtiger (not confirmed yet but an obvious choice).

That is, because unlike reward units, that you can choose to use or not, the Tiger Ace is intended to replace the normal Tiger. While I agree about BK doctrine and that no one would care if the normal tiger is replaced for the Tiger Ace with cost increased(i mean, they won't care for the normal tiger, not talking about the decision to not put it on Terror). Imo, in the future there won't be much incentive to go Blitz. Why would you go to Blitz if Terror has a better Tiger?

It's not about to just listen the masses, also is needed to check if it could fit and what repercussions will have, because as you said, many of them are noobs and if we listen completely to the masses... however, it's not like my opinion will make a difference, EF policy still applies and looks like the Ace will be the reward unit for the KT.

Last edited January 14, 2011 at 5:20 PM by blackbishop

I vote for

Tiger Ace -> KT
Jagdtiger -> Jagdpanther

As long as the Tiger Ace is a one time call-in like the KT, blitz still has some appeal due to unlimited call-ins.