Heavy Weapon Pick-up... probable solution!

Chancellor wrote:

Paciat wrote:
If Soviets can recrew, how about making them drop PTRDs and LMGs just like other fractions do?

+1  I also recommend putting the cost of the strelky LMGs / PPSH from a mere 35 up to 75 munis so it's on par with the LMG42 and the Bren LMGs in terms of cost.

I don't think that's a good idea due to the muni upkeep the Soviets have, plus don't forget we have to pay munis for the Armory upgrades so lets keep the weapon upgrades low. 

Chancellor wrote:

Paciat wrote:
If Soviets can recrew, how about making them drop PTRDs and LMGs just like other fractions do?

+1  I also recommend putting the cost of the strelky LMGs / PPSH from a mere 35 up to 75 munis so it's on par with the LMG42 and the Bren LMGs in terms of cost.

MP40 cost 50 ammo, BARs 0 ammo. Strelky upgrade is expensive and with tank ammo upkeep its really hard to get any kind of upgrades.

MP40s are useless most of the time; volks rarely survive the charge, so they should be cheaper.  We could compare the initial Strelky upgrade to BARs, but that would mean up-gunned Strelky should be around the strength of vet 2 grenadiers, sort of how BAR riflemen are.

In fact, vet 2 grenadiers beat vet 0 BAR riflemen at all ranges, but seeing how Soviets must pay 35 munis for the guns, I think the up-gunned vet 0 Strelky squad should be equal in power to a vet 2 gren squad.

Its not as simple as "Strelky upgrade costs a lot", since Wehrmacht infantry vet costs even more, and Soviets get 2 LMGs or 5 PPSH for only 35 munis while Grens only get 1 LMG for 75 munis.  Add to the fact that Wehrmacht needs to handicap a few of their Grenadiers with Panzershrecks to hold off circle-strafing, and what you get is 2 Kar98 and 1 single-shot StG44 against like 5 PPSH...

Unlike Strelky, Grenadiers don't have the luxury of LMGs, because the Wehrmacht player needs to spend those 75 munitions each on at least 1-2 Panzershrecks first, since infantry vet delays teching more.

Wehr does have the advantage of med bunker, but the medics can always be killed, and Soviets have the advantage of stronger vet.  When they get airborne armor, their armor type is almost on par with gren's elite armor already.  Note that the vet 2 gren's armor type advantage is the only thing keeping them alive from automatic weapons like BARs and PPSH; they rarely have the luxury for even 1 LMG42.

Finally, even if grens could have the luxury of spending all their munitions on LMG42s, the difference spent on automatic weapons increases exponentially.
1 Wehr LMG: 75 Munis      2 Soviet LMGs: 35 Munis
2 Wehr LMGs: 150 Munis    4 Soviet LMGs: 70 Munis
3 Wehr LMGs: 225 Munis  6 Soviet LMGs: 105 Munis
etc etc

Last edited November 30, 2010 at 6:06 AM by Chancellor

The only problem of comparing these weapons is, that a DP differs a lot from a MG42. MG42 can surpress a lot faster and does more damage, I think. However you mustn't compare all those rifles and other guns 1 on 1. Same for the veteracy. If Wehrmacht field a lot of troops, their general upgrade is really usefull, but if the player only stays with a few of the upgraded units, it is indeed to overpriced for him, to balance that out, you could make the vet-upgrades cheaper, but increase the Production cost of units which would result in higher costs in longer matches...  ::)

There's no need to change wehrmacht.

Chancellor wrote:
MP40s are useless most of the time; volks rarely survive the charge...

Volks are a defensive unit. Theres no better early game unit to defend a HMG.
MP40 is allmost uselell on the offensive (like BRENs) but can defeat a charging Ranger with Thompsons.

Chancellor wrote:
MP40s are useless most of the time; volks rarely survive the charge, so they should be cheaper.

I think they work fine. Becuase they are so deadly at close range the opponent wouldn't charge you. This is good to keep your snipers alive or keep the enemy away from your mgs. They are not used in every game, but they are used from time to time.

Personally I use them every game vs Soviets.

Guys I think you misunderstood me on the MP40s.  I'm not saying lower their cost or change them in any way; I think they are 100% fine the way they are.  I was just responding to Paciat's quote "MP40s cost 50 munitions and BARs cost 0 munitions"

When I said "they should be cheaper" I meant that they are fine the way they are in how they cost 50 munitions compared to 75 munitions for Bren and LMG42.

Also, its true that a single LMG42 > a single Bren or a single DP, but I'm pretty sure that 2 Brens or 2 DPs are still stronger than 1 LMG42.  Remember that Allies get 2 LMGs per upgrade while Wehr only gets one.

@revoluzer
As for upgrade usefulness in terms of units produced, its really a matter of skill.  The more troops you keep alive the more manpower you have to buy that extra squad, so if the Wehrmacht player plays better than the Soviet one, he will have more squads and of course his upgrade investment is worth more than the Soviet guy's.  I don't see how Strelky cannot be the backbone of the USSR army (4-5 squads) like Grenadiers for Wehr and BAR riflemen for USA...

If you are losing manpower left and right, then of course your upgrade will be less useful whether its the Red Banner, Infantry Vet, or BARs.

Last edited December 1, 2010 at 5:41 AM by Chancellor

Chancellor wrote:
I'm pretty sure that 2 Brens or 2 DPs are still stronger than 1 LMG42.

BRENs are accually similar to MP40 but with better long range accuracy. BRENs rate of fire is 7 while MG42 is 15 (twice as more). BRENs suppresion is also more than twice as low as MG42.
MG42 is better than 2 BRENs and replaces only 1 k98 instead of 2 Lee Endfields.

Both DPs and BARs are better than BRENs and one MG42 but their upgrade slows teching down.
BRENs suck so much becouse UK has soldier armor and becouse its the 1st LMG that hits the field. German elite armor is better than soldiers and it ballances cheap MGs and Officers.