Heavy Weapon Pick-up... probable solution!

Check this out: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?255309-TOOL-Fixed-DLL-for-new-Factions-and-TeamWeapons Will this work? Rizz?

Cope is a member of our team, and that fix will be included in 1.24.

Modders for the Win!! ;D ;D ;D
Shame on Relic... :'(

This is great news! Good job Copernicus. Can't wait for this to get in the mod.

I don't get it.... does it means that Soviets will be able to capture heavy weapons?

Relic sucks, Modders rock!  ;D ;D ;D

@cephalos - Yep, so no more odd balance with soviet mortars and AT guns (not that the balance is bad now, but it'll be easier to get a fair balance once they can recrew them).

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Hooray! what an impressive achievement! :O

Wilson wrote:
@cephalos - Yep, so no more odd balance with soviet mortars and AT guns (not that the balance is bad now, but it'll be easier to get a fair balance once they can recrew them).

that's right... it's an odd balance... nothing better than be able to recrew enemy weapons, let alone own heavy weapons ;D!!

Paciat wrote:
Relic sucks, Modders rock!  ;D ;D ;D

+1  8)

Actually Relic created one of the best games of the last 10 years. I'm merely improving upon their fantastic work ;).

-cope.

Cope ftw! No more drawback on introducing new factions to the game!

Copernicus wrote:
Actually Relic created one of the best games of the last 10 years. I'm merely improving upon their fantastic work ;).

-cope.

I don't think anyone on this forum denies that fact. Don't get me wrong, we all think CoH is really good. But it's just that it's not good enough (in terms of sides represented, historical accuracy, gameplay issues etc.) that's why people show interest in creating and playing various mods.
The fact, that modders have that plenty of trouble with modding, has a lot to do with Relic's position towards the community, and that could not go unnoticed. This is the reason why critical notices towards Relic, like some of the above, would even appear.

Once again, thank you and, of course, all other members of the modding team for your work, it is greatly appreciated by us, CoH lovers.  :)

IJoe wrote:

Copernicus wrote:
Actually Relic created one of the best games of the last 10 years. I'm merely improving upon their fantastic work ;).

-cope.

I don't think anyone on this forum denies that fact. Don't get me wrong, we all think CoH is really good. But it's just that it's not good enough (in terms of sides represented, historical accuracy, gameplay issues etc.) that's why people show interest in creating and playing various mods.
The fact, that modders have that plenty of trouble with modding, has a lot to do with Relic's position towards the community, and that could not go unnoticed. This is the reason why critical notices towards Relic, like some of the above, would even appear.

Once again, thank you and, of course, all other members of the modding team for your work, it is greatly appreciated by us, CoH lovers.  :)

Indeed.

at last jerries aa flak cannons and Flakvierlings will be taken by my great russian troops muhhaha 8)
this a huge achievement for coh modding community
great!

Last edited November 24, 2010 at 9:17 PM by nickpol15

nickpol15 wrote:
at last jerries aa flak cannons and Flakvierlings will be taken by my great russian troops muhhaha 8)

Youre right, Sharpshooters will be a bigger pain in the ass now. And with a Mosin penetration buff even PE SC and WH bikes will have problems hunting them.
1 great thing though, both types of constripts will be usefull, just like Volks are usefull after Grens hit the field.

i am so happy i have to post twice
Hooray!!

I really don't think it's a good idea to allow conscripts the ability to recrew. They're too numerous to be honest.

Conscripts would be more useful if their price were reduced with each support barracks/tank hall upgrade. They would then serve a purpose lategame. Also, if their AI were fixed and the weapons switched between members properly.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I really don't think it's a good idea to allow conscripts the ability to recrew. They're too numerous to be honest.

Conscripts would be more useful if their price were reduced with each support barracks/tank hall upgrade. They would then serve a purpose lategame. Also, if their AI were fixed and the weapons switched between members properly.

+1  Losing 3 dirt poor conscripts to man a weapon is not good for balance.  I am also in favor of allowing more and cheaper conscripts to smother the enemy late game for extra fun gameplay.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I really don't think it's a good idea to allow conscripts the ability to recrew. They're too numerous to be honest.

Conscripts would be more useful if their price were reduced with each support barracks/tank hall upgrade. They would then serve a purpose lategame. Also, if their AI were fixed and the weapons switched between members properly.

I understand youre point but Soviets have no halftracks and NKVD cant retreat. Outposts are weaker than bunkers and Forward HQ too. Soviet weapons also need more crew men. Soviet engiees repair speed and HP low is also so it makes AT guns less survivable.

1.24 will probably nerf Sharpshooters so decrewing German weapons will be harder.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I really don't think it's a good idea to allow conscripts the ability to recrew. They're too numerous to be honest.

Conscripts would be more useful if their price were reduced with each support barracks/tank hall upgrade. They would then serve a purpose lategame. Also, if their AI were fixed and the weapons switched between members properly.

I agree with this. Strelky have seven men after all, so it's not like it will be especially hard to find men to recrew things.

@Paciat - The Soviets might find it slightly harder to recrew vehicles than other factions (but only assuming those other factions have built a halftrack or FHQ, which they often won't), but if so that's a downside which can be balanced for and gives them some flavour. I can't see it being a serious issue to be honest.

What's wrong with conscripts rearming a weapon?
I mean, engineers are even cheaper (as a squad) and faster to produce, and there's enough of them to rearm any captured weapon without loosing the whole squad on it (so it could be replenished further on).
All in all, 1 unit of volks can replenish 2 vanilla weapons, 1 unit of conscripts - just the same amount of soviet ones. (Though I do realise they may be used to rearm 3 hmgs  ::) )

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Paciat wrote:
NKVD cant retreat

True, but conscripts can.

Last edited November 25, 2010 at 10:10 AM by IJoe

So do you also have a solution for the starting unit? Good work on the recrewing ;D

IJoe wrote:
What's wrong with conscripts rearming a weapon?
I mean, engineers are even cheaper (as a squad) and faster to produce, and there's enough of them to rearm any captured weapon without loosing the whole squad on it (so it could be replenished further on).
All in all, 1 unit of volks can replenish 2 vanilla weapons, 1 unit of conscripts - just the same amount of soviet ones. (Though I do realise they may be used to rearm 3 hmgs  ::) )

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Paciat wrote:
NKVD cant retreat

True, but conscripts can.

I'd say you aren't likely to have as many spare engineers running around, whereas you might well have a conscript squad left which doesn't have much value as a combat unit, but which could very easily recrew multiple enemy weapons and become far more valuable. It depends on whether you want Russian players just stealing every heavy weapon they can get their conscripts to simply because they don't have anything better to do with them. Also, conscripts don't cost population do they? If that carries over to weapons they recrew, it could potentially be very OP.

Wilson wrote:

IJoe wrote:
What's wrong with conscripts rearming a weapon?
I mean, engineers are even cheaper (as a squad) and faster to produce, and there's enough of them to rearm any captured weapon without loosing the whole squad on it (so it could be replenished further on).
All in all, 1 unit of volks can replenish 2 vanilla weapons, 1 unit of conscripts - just the same amount of soviet ones. (Though I do realise they may be used to rearm 3 hmgs  ::) )

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Paciat wrote:
NKVD cant retreat

True, but conscripts can.

I'd say you aren't likely to have as many spare engineers running around, whereas you might well have a conscript squad left which doesn't have much value as a combat unit, but which could very easily recrew multiple enemy weapons and become far more valuable. It depends on whether you want Russian players just stealing every heavy weapon they can get their conscripts to simply because they don't have anything better to do with them. Also, conscripts don't cost population do they? If that carries over to weapons they recrew, it could potentially be very OP.

+1

Sorry, forgot about the pop cap.  :-[

IJoe wrote:
Sorry, forgot about the pop cap.  :-[

Well, I'm not 100% certain about the pop cap thing, but even if conscripts do use up pop when they recrew a weapon, the main point is about being able to try and steal most empty weapons most of the time if you have a unit of conscripts around, just because they are so cheap and you probably aren't using them for anything else after the early game.

Remeber that if Soviet weapons require more men than those of other factions a balance issue exists in that Soviets will recrew vCoH weapons too easily and that germans would recrew soviet weapons with difficulty, having to sacrifice a whole squad. Clearly the crew numbers of Soviet weapons will be reduced to standard size and priced accordingly.

Rizz just told me that, as of now (WIP), conscripts don't have the ability to recrew but NKVD do. Although this may not be final in any means, it may mean that there's more value in getting NKVD.

PS. Wilson, what's your RO name and are you up for a game right now?

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Remeber that if Soviet weapons require more men than those of other factions a balance issue exists in that Soviets will recrew vCoH weapons too easily and that germans would recrew soviet weapons with difficulty, having to sacrifice a whole squad.

For capturing soviet weapons you can use pioneers, than the crew will be smaller, even after replenishing to full size squad (standard vanilla size),yet more vulnerable - it's only a matter of choice.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Remeber that if Soviet weapons require more men than those of other factions a balance issue exists in that Soviets will recrew vCoH weapons too easily and that germans would recrew soviet weapons with difficulty, having to sacrifice a whole squad. Clearly the crew numbers of Soviet weapons will be reduced to standard size and priced accordingly.

Rizz just told me that, as of now (WIP), conscripts don't have the ability to recrew but NKVD do. Although this may not be final in any means, it may mean that there's more value in getting NKVD.

PS. Wilson, what's your RO name and are you up for a game right now?

I thought NKVD might be all right recrewing because they can't retreat, which potentially makes it more of an issue to use them with recrewing.

@GodlikeDennis - I would be up for a game now, but I appreciate I'm two hours late. Just had lunch.

I wonder if with this fix their maximum squad numbers will be brought down from 5 to 3, because i've grown quite used to having at least 4 men in the squad and it was nice anyway because of increased surviveablity. Hopefully the options stays to have the squad go up to at least 4.

Last edited November 25, 2010 at 3:48 PM by Raider217

I wouldn't see why vet couldn't grant more squad members like it does now. The imbalance comes from the recrewing and vet is lost when the squad dies anyway. I would also like to keep larger squads from vet because it feels very soviet.

oh lawd this is allmost to good to be true ;D

+9999 you rock cope.

What a great news!! Thanks Cope!!!!!    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Raider217 wrote:
I wonder if with this fix their maximum squad numbers will be brought down from 5 to 3, because i've grown quite used to having at least 4 men in the squad and it was nice anyway because of increased surviveablity. Hopefully the options stays to have the squad go up to at least 4.

Anyway, I hope conscript and NKVD wpnt be allowed to recrew weapons. It would be logical. On the other hand engineers should logically recrew weapons, and are cheaper. Maybe dev should allow this only to upped-engineers?

Nils18 wrote:
So do you also have a solution for the starting unit? Good work on the recrewing ;D

what are you talking about? soviets are supposed to have no starting unit, yaknow..

Red_Stinger wrote:
What a great news!! Thanks Cope!!!!!    :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Raider217 wrote:
I wonder if with this fix their maximum squad numbers will be brought down from 5 to 3, because i've grown quite used to having at least 4 men in the squad and it was nice anyway because of increased surviveablity. Hopefully the options stays to have the squad go up to at least 4.

Anyway, I hope conscript and NKVD wpnt be allowed to recrew weapons. It would be logical. On the other hand engineers should logically recrew weapons, and are cheaper. Maybe dev should allow this only to upped-engineers?

1. What's wrong with NKVD?
2. Do you realize how much upped engineers cost (the upgrade itself, the pop cap, plus the muni cost)? It's like recrewing guns with sharpshooters, only even more expensive.

If Soviets can recrew, how about making them drop PTRDs and LMGs just like other fractions do?

@IJoe

There is nothing wrong with NKVD, but its basically conscript lead by a commissar... And there are too cheap too reinforce anything, plus they dont have any training...

I realize how much sturmovie engineers cost, but in the other hand engineers are also very cheap and can reinforce any weapon... not good for balance I suppose... But we should be talking about that in an other section of the forum!

Don't forget that every cheap Soviet infantry also has low surviveability, so it will be easier for enemy to decrew gun again

I'm fairly sure the crew doesn't have the stats of the squad that mans it.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I really don't think it's a good idea to allow conscripts the ability to recrew. They're too numerous to be honest.

Why not just find another way to balance them? It seems like the easy way out just to say that this unit can't recapture heavy weapons.
To have an easy time re-capturing weapons is a natural advantage that comes from having a large army. There is many other ways to balance the unit, like lowering their cap rate, less hp etc. Sure it is a bit more work to enable them to recapture weapons and than make them balanced again, but I think the end result will be better if we don't take the easy way.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I'm fairly sure the crew doesn't have the stats of the squad that mans it.

Some experts on gr.org talked about how you could use Knight's Cross Holders to recapture mg's and make them almost imposible to kill because of their armor type, and their high dps at close range. I have not experimented with it my self, but I think that some of the stats carries over to the crew.

Well, the skin & the weapons definitely do.

Normal squads do, but because of the fix I don't think soviet ones do. Since the dll injection thing creates a new squad rather than divide the squad members between the current squad and the weapon. Someone'll have to ask Rizz or Cope.

SavageWorld wrote:
Some experts on gr.org talked about how you could use Knight's Cross Holders to recapture mg's and make them almost imposible to kill because of their armor type, and their high dps at close range.

An MG that withstands 5 sniper shots? Dont think thats possible.
If a WH is vet 2 it has elite armor, HP regeneration and is allmost impossimbe to kill. But the most survivable MG is the Commando HMG with smoke.

Anyway crew stats and vet change when you recrew.

Paciat wrote:
If Soviets can recrew, how about making them drop PTRDs and LMGs just like other fractions do?

+1 it's only fair, right?  ;)

I love you guys

Werwolf wrote:

Paciat wrote:
If Soviets can recrew, how about making them drop PTRDs and LMGs just like other fractions do?

+1 it's only fair, right?  ;)

Sure. Why not? \
As long as it won't make the Devs' brains boil.  :)
Just don't overnerf soviets as well.

Last edited November 28, 2010 at 6:46 PM by IJoe

BurroDiablo wrote:
I love you guys

That is good.

Paciat wrote:
If Soviets can recrew, how about making them drop PTRDs and LMGs just like other fractions do?

+1  I also recommend putting the cost of the strelky LMGs / PPSH from a mere 35 up to 75 munis so it's on par with the LMG42 and the Bren LMGs in terms of cost.