Slight buffs for the late game Brits.

First of all I dont care about LTs arti and stacking bonuses. For ballance they can be nerfed. This is not a topic on that.

I would like to see some minor changes in the British late game.

1. Buff the healing power of a Captain. Vet 2 Captain shoul heal at least as fast as vet 1 Wehrmacht infantry but only in 1 friendly territory.

2. Change the Commando tree so that Commando HQ is at 4CPs while Tetrarch stays at 5CP.

3. Tetrarch glider should be able to produce Commando jeeps with same build cost as US jeep and same smoke ability as Tetrarchs/upgraded Shermans.

4. Change Churchill Croc armor and gun.
Late war Crocs were Churchills Mk VII with OQF 75mm gun and better armor than a Tiger I. A Cromwells gun and Pershings/vet 0 Tigers armor wont change much in the gameplay becouse a single Panther will still kill it with ease. An overrepaired Crock will still have less HP, worst armor, gun and speed than a Vet 3 Tiger but this change will make you want to save CPs (it can cost more CPs than it does now) for this blob killer.

I support all of these changes plus more.

Commandos need to benefit from vet. The problem lies in the way they often work independently from LTs. Nanaki fixed this by creating a global vet system unique to commandos. I'm not certain exactly what he did but it worked when I tried his mod.

Royal engineers need a way to spend munitions, through some arty strike or something.

Brit 25lbers need a slight damage/range buff. They are pretty much the worst arty in the game.

However, supercharged mortar range needs slightly reducing and vet stacking needs to go. I would be quite happy with Brits if all these things changed although many other design issues remain (soldier armour/mobile HQs *cough*).

Royal Commandos Tree must get a reorder. The Glider-HQ come when no one need it.

The Staghound should be "fixed" to be on 'terms' with the Stuart the most logic unit to replace.

And as Kolaris said those topics should be checked.

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Brits certainly had a high amount of bullshit they could throw out in 2.6, but I think it should be pretty obvious that once you move into the mid-game they're severely lacking. Especially with these (appropriate) nerfs.

Oh, oh wait, I mean without Roo/Staghound ridiculousness. Of course.

They have very few options for dealing with Elite Armour and moving Vehicles. Their scaling is very bad. Their tanks are gimicky if they don't win with shock value.

A couple of things I consider good changes:

- Make the Recon Section into a desirable upgrade. You don't want it overpowering in the first few minutes of course, since you get it for free. The Marksman in the squad uses a unique weapon - give it hefty damage/accuracy bonuses against Elite Armour, similar to a Sniper's bonuses against Elite Armour.

- Veterancy and scaling. You're far better off with 3 unvetted Lieutenants than 1 or even 2 vetted ones. Decrease the stackable, unvetted bonuses but increase the modifiers achieved with Vet 2/3 above and beyond what was taken away.

- Rifle Grenades vs Elite Armour. All Grenades do 1.0x damage to all infantry except Rifle Grenades, which do 25% less damage to Elite Armour. Increase to the standard 1.0x.

Just addressing Infantry combat in the late game, I think these three things would help even out the Commonwealth against Elite Armour Grens without having to resort to un-fun, roundabout bull like Commando Democharges and FOO.

Rifle Grenades and Recon Elements would be the go-to choices for fighting Elite Armour Infantry, while the Bren Gun remains useful for its role in British AV.

As @ChocoboKnight88 said, the demo sapper bug needs to be checked.

This is true, Brits aren't great vs elite armour. Because most players grenspam vs the Brits, almost everyone goes arty doctrine to counter it. Recon sections definately do need a buff but I personally thing riflenade sections are still quite effective. I think the Recon snipe should be free but only unlocked after the field support is out to not affect early game (and with a moderately lengthy cooldown).

Paciat wrote:
First of all I dont care about LTs arti and stacking bonuses. For ballance they can be nerfed. This is not a topic on that.

I would like to see some minor changes in the British late game.

1. Buff the healing power of a Captain. Vet 2 Captain shoul heal at least as fast as vet 1 Wehrmacht infantry but only in 1 friendly territory.

2. Change the Commando tree so that Commando HQ is at 4CPs while Tetrarch stays at 5CP.

3. Tetrarch glider should be able to produce Commando jeeps with same build cost as US jeep and same smoke ability as Tetrarchs/upgraded Shermans.

4. Change Churchill Croc armor and gun.
Late war Crocs were Churchills Mk VII with OQF 75mm gun and better armor than a Tiger I. A Cromwells gun and Pershings/vet 0 Tigers armor wont change much in the gameplay becouse a single Panther will still kill it with ease. An overrepaired Crock will still have less HP, worst armor, gun and speed than a Vet 3 Tiger but this change will make you want to save CPs (it can cost more CPs than it does now) for this blob killer.

+1

Though few things really makes sense...mostly the Commandos veterancy, i actually wont support this idea, cause i dont want any further changing in vanila factions. But thats my point of view...well see how the Devs will react to this.

Paciat wrote:
First of all I dont care about LTs arti and stacking bonuses. For ballance they can be nerfed. This is not a topic on that.

I would like to see some minor changes in the British late game.

1. Buff the healing power of a Captain. Vet 2 Captain shoul heal at least as fast as vet 1 Wehrmacht infantry but only in 1 friendly territory.

2. Change the Commando tree so that Commando HQ is at 4CPs while Tetrarch stays at 5CP.

3. Tetrarch glider should be able to produce Commando jeeps with same build cost as US jeep and same smoke ability as Tetrarchs/upgraded Shermans.

4. Change Churchill Croc armor and gun.
Late war Crocs were Churchills Mk VII with OQF 75mm gun and better armor than a Tiger I. A Cromwells gun and Pershings/vet 0 Tigers armor wont change much in the gameplay becouse a single Panther will still kill it with ease. An overrepaired Crock will still have less HP, worst armor, gun and speed than a Vet 3 Tiger but this change will make you want to save CPs (it can cost more CPs than it does now) for this blob killer.

The enginnering faction.
The above tank could arrive on field, and have the above upgrades. This could be purchased by AMMO, atypically an area the engineers suffer from having no or little outlet.

Engineer sappers / sniper squads should have greades at 30 ammo or similar.

Engineer sappers should be able to build road blocks at a cost of ammo.

Arty units should be able to super charge rounds for a short time at a relatively expensive rate of ammo.

In a nutshell, some additional ways should be brought in game, even if its for example just the tank trap/road blocks that cost ammo - so the faction has an additional meritable way of spending the ammo.

AdmV0rl0n wrote:
Engineer sappers should be able to build road blocks at a cost of ammo.

Who would build roadblocks if you can build cheaper mines?

Gun upgrades could be done to Churchills.
6lbs->OQF 75mm for 75 or even 100 ammo. No animation or model changes. Just a change of stats.

well on a second thought , roadblocks by sappers seems to be a good suggestion

Roadblocks on sappers is a terrible suggestion. Why should engineers get a doctinal ability from scorched earth for free? Why should engineers get a doctrinal ability from arty? It sound like you just want engineers to get everything.

The above buffs to churchills plus a unique way to spend munis are enough to make the engineers doctrine useful.

lol , because they are cheap hence they get everything for free ;)

Yes, what a valuable insight you have provided to the forum AbhMkh...

Dennis, I think that you've misread V0rl0n:

QuoteEngineer sappers should be able to build road blocks at a cost of ammo.

Only from Royal Engineers Doctrine - thus roadblocks will be doctrinal just as PE's

No, you misread me. The royal engineers sappers will have an ability that is stolen from another doctrine and doesn't cost them a point to use. There is also the matter that allies can clear roadblocks far easier than axis due to them being taken into account during the design process.

If the 25 pounder needs a buff, I'd prefer it to be in range/cooldown/cost, something other than damage. I think the German nebelwerfer is good because it's effective artillery and worth having, but it doesn't blow entire squads up with lucky hits.

I like the OP's suggested changes. Expensive upgrades to Churchills would be a nice way to spend munis for the engineers in my opinion. It could also serve to make the Churchills more useful in late game, at high munitions cost.

Last edited August 13, 2010 at 1:17 PM by Wilson

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Roadblocks on sappers is a terrible suggestion. Why should engineers get a doctinal ability from scorched earth for free? Why should engineers get a doctrinal ability from arty? It sound like you just want engineers to get everything.

The above buffs to churchills plus a unique way to spend munis are enough to make the engineers doctrine useful.

I did not make myself clear. So lets just be clear. I mixed and matched, and this has led to a little confusion.
So, let them make Tank Traps for 25 ammo (or similar ) per tank trap.
And let them make road blocks for 50.

And the idea that engineers cannot build or block a road is insane, it has nothing to do with other factions, engineers should be capable of building the totally completely obvious things - and this is obvious.

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GodlikeDennis wrote:
No, you misread me. The royal engineers sappers will have an ability that is stolen from another doctrine and doesn't cost them a point to use. There is also the matter that allies can clear roadblocks far easier than axis due to them being taken into account during the design process.

You've misread my suggestion, although I did amend it. Please let me explain or pad it out a little. I'm suggesting the brits have no road blocking /tank trap ability (I don't care much about which, one would suffice in the general sense). Which is pretty stupid in the context of the engineer faction, because its blatantly clear who in the army would make these.

Further, I'm not suggesting its free. I'm suggesting that they have them, but unlike other factions, they actually have to pay an ammo fee for every one.

Further, just to be clear, making a 'camping' faction, and aside from nerfing them all over, denying them a road block/tank trap option has been dumb.

You are always whining in here that you want the brits to be more like the other factions. When someone suggests it, you then start saying they can't have it. 

Last edited August 13, 2010 at 5:19 PM by AdmV0rl0n

British Doctrines are tricky...especially RCA, because 2 of the "Higher-Tier" abilities are simply automatically doing something the player is capable of already (Overwatch, Counter-Battery). I'd certainly like to see some of RCA's power moved from the early game (FOO, Supercharge) into the lategame (Counter-Battery). Reducing the Scatter on both Overwatch and CB could help make them more attractive in their jobs. A Priest in Counter-Battery represents an entire Doctrinal Tree - I'd like to see it actually cancel out enemy Artillery given that it isn't firing itself.

For Commandos...the problems are too much shock value, too little scaling, Demo Charges, and MGs/Mortars come way too late to be useful. I may be accused of proposing changes that are too drastic, but I think its the only way to fix things. Switch HQ Glider and Commando Glider, Commando Glider to 2 CP. HQ Glider can build Commandos with Lee Enfields, they have to upgrade to Stens (very similar to Storms/Rangers). Demo Charges can only be placed on Buildings, but Commandos can earn their own veterancy. It would need quite a bit of tweaking, but I think it would fix all four problems if implemented carefully.

The problems with RSE are that there's no way to spend Munitions, Churchills don't scale, and the LHS does not offer any useful buffs. I'd propose that Sappers get Overrepair automatically, either just by selecting RSE or with Improved Emplacements. Hull Down could use some offensive benefits ala Lockdown/PIV Rapid Fire. Churchill Pop Cap should be lowered by 6 (all variants). The AVRE is the only way for RSE to spend munitions...I'd suggest giving it a longer range to serve more as artillery, while increasing the cost to 75 munitions. Lastly, all Vehicle Flamethrowers are in dire need of a buff...the Churchill Croc least of all since it at least has range, but it could use a minimum damage buff to reduce the randomness of using it.

The British early and mid game is still incredibly strong though...that may need to be looked at before you go fixing their late game problems.

I don't like the idea of Roadblocks, since I don't like the idea of reusing factional abilities. Its one of my complaints with the RHS Urban Warfare tree and I wouldn't want to see it happen somewhere else.

@AdmV0rl0n - To be fair, I don't get the impression GodlikeDennis is arguing both ways with the Brits. He wants them to be balanced like the other factions and without the odd very OP/very UP elements they have, but he doesn't want them to be the same as other factions (that's the impression I get from his posts anyway, obviously he knows what he means :)

As for giving the engineers extra stuff, I'd say tank traps might be ok, but I'd rather that road blocks stay a Scorched Earth thing only. I appreciate that it would be different because they would pay munitions for them, but I'm sure there are interesting things you can do with the engineers that aren't copies of other abilities already available. Also, I think the idea of Brits being a 'camping' faction is a problem in itself, because COH is not at all geared to camping IMO. That might be why the Brits cause so much argument, because a faction focused on camping wouldn't fit in COH. It isn't that kind of RTS, I think.

Wilson summed up what I meant nicely. Rebalance both the UP/OP elements so the games against them aren't so gimmicky and unfun. The abusefest gameplay (that goes for axis as well) during Brit games is because of strange british mechanics that don't fit in the game.

Why would you build a tank trap if it weren't free? You may as well just build mines which serve a similar purpose really. Sappers should be able to build tank traps anyway.

Kolaris, what range were you thinking for the AVRE? As it is, the turret turning is what makes petard less devastating. If you were out of LoS to see it turn, I could see the AVRE being substantially more powerful. Also, did you ever try Nanaki's mod? I know he changed far too many things than needed to be changed but as I remember Commandos still used LT vet but didn't have to be in the aura. Can you remember the specifics?

AdmV0rl0n, accept my friend request so that I can easily see when you're online and beat you.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Wilson summed up what I meant nicely. Rebalance both the UP/OP elements so the games against them aren't so gimmicky and unfun. The abusefest gameplay (that goes for axis as well) during Brit games is because of strange british mechanics that don't fit in the game.

Why would you build a tank trap if it weren't free? You may as well just build mines which serve a similar purpose really. Sappers should be able to build tank traps anyway.

Kolaris, what range were you thinking for the AVRE? As it is, the turret turning is what makes petard less devastating. If you were out of LoS to see it turn, I could see the AVRE being substantially more powerful. Also, did you ever try Nanaki's mod? I know he changed far too many things than needed to be changed but as I remember Commandos still used LT vet but didn't have to be in the aura. Can you remember the specifics?

AdmV0rl0n, accept my friend request so that I can easily see when you're online and beat you.

Beating me should not be a problem, given all you have said

-.-' Most Brit-Threads turn into bithfighting ::)

Am surprise pacitet didn't get involved

Seeme wrote:
Am surprise pacitet didn't get involved

He is the OP. ;P

Seeme wrote:
Am surprise pacitet didn't get involved

Surprise. I did.

I dont like an idea of AVRE arti.
StuH, AVRE, KV-2 and Sherman 105 shoud be the same.

Quote
Commandos still used LT vet but didn't have to be in the aura.

Just like Commandos squad global vet? I love it! Commanding Tommies and gaining vet by being close to other infantry would of course stay as it is.
STENs would benefit less than Lee-Endfields from accuracy+reload+cooldown bonuses.
As Ive said before stacking bonuses can be nerfed (disabled).

Glider HQ at 2 CPs? Another good Idea. Commandos could show up at 4 CPs but Id like to see Tetrarch (and jeeps) being 1 CP earlier too. Personally I wouldnt mind Commandos being at 5 CPs with their STENs buffed vs Soldier (like Thompsons) and some minor bonuses from 1 most veted LT on the field.

Roadblocks are a horrible idea. The whole point of Scorched Earth is to cripple enemies advance. Roadblocks fit this doctrine just like Booby Traps and Sector Arti.
The British army was the one that was attacking in 1944. Why would it need roadblocks? It has AVRE to destroy roadblocks, mines, bunkers, etc., and withstand some enemy fire while doing it. Thats why I want better armor to Crocs.

Last edited August 14, 2010 at 3:54 PM by Paciat

I think sappers should be able to build tank traps if find it odd that they can't.
Some changes to the commandos might be welcome too.

I think the churchill crocodile could do with some love, for 800 mp it's a bit steep in cost.

i wouldn't mind if the brits had a cheaper tank destroyer too, i find them weak vs armour in general.

also infantry speed in enemy territory, wtf i don't get this at all, why so slow? did they not get to eat breakfast or something?

Mad wrote:
I think sappers should be able to build tank traps if find it odd that they can't.

Non doctrinal tank traps, sandbags and barbed wire yes, roadblocks no.

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also infantry speed in enemy territory, wtf i don't get this at all, why so slow? did they not get to eat breakfast or something?

British drink tea, not coffee. Thats why they dont jump into battle like crazy.

That's why they needed the Americans to help them take back France, they drink coffee ;D

Both tea AND coffee is inferior to vodka, so they needed the Russians as well.

loooooooool  ;)

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Both tea AND coffee is inferior to vodka, so they needed the Russians as well.

...and all of a sudden the beer + Schnapps drinkers were overwhelmed.  ;D ;D ;D

I find myself wondering if Hull Down could provide heavy cover to nearby infantry. It would certainly work well with the churchill as an infantry support tank.

Hull Down giving heavy cover would be quite neat. It's a shame you don't really see the engineers used much, I do like seeing Churchills.