1.20 and 1.21 Observation about brit changes

In General, Brits tend to be accused of being the most out of balance faction, and in many games they are.

Additions:
The comet. Thanks. Appreciate the work on this. Seems poorer against tanks than firefly. Seems poorer against inf than cromwell. Seems slower than cromwell. Seems tougher than both. This is an early view from just a couple of games.

Actual Changelog
British Bug Fixes and Balance Changes
* Kangaroo Manpower cost increased to 300 from 240. (Nerf)
* Kangaroo Fuel cost increased to 45 from 10. (Nerf)
* Kangaroo Health decrease from 650 to 550. (Nerf)
* Kangaroo Build time increased from 35 to 45 seconds. (Nerf, getting boring now)
* Staghound MG Gunner is now in line with other MG Gunners.
(Not sure, Nerf?)
* Increase delay of Forward Observation Officers (FOO) from 2.0 to 2.75 seconds. (Nerf )
* PIAT accuracy vs infantry reduced. (Nerf, seems like a very one sided deal about now.. :/ )
* Recon Tommies can now detect snipers while moving. (Improvement)
* Sappers now has wire cutters. (Nerf, I blow up sand bags and barb with piats in needed, and you've robbed the sappers of the ambush)
* Bren Carrier now receives double damage while repairing. (Nerf, the bren already stops firing when repairing which was bad enough)
* Tommy Bren gun can no longer use Button Up while garrisoned (Roo, Bren Carrier, Trench, etc). (Nerf)

Changes:
Major nerf on Kangeroo.
Fuel price up. Cost up. Toughness reduced. Build time up.

Inf nerf, reduced ability of buttoning.

Bren made useless and death on repair (presume this is an early game nerf.)

Sappers are given wire cutters, BUT, you've nerfed sappers because now there is no hidden ambush.

Overall, I might concede that Kangeroos needed some adjustment. I enjoy raiding with kangeroos and I know many other players have an appreicted view that they were overpowered against their costs and there is a quantity of whining about them. 

BUT, I have to say, Kangeroos were one of the changes I welcomed because they gave brits some teeth offensively mid/late game, and in addition they supply some mobility which again the brit needs badly.

Overall, looking at the above, I have taken the view that its a serious nerf on the already misbalanced brits. If you are going to do this, then you need to re-engineer the other units to rebalance the brits.

Suggestions in light of patch - assuming above changes are to stay
1. Reduce brit infantry cost to 400 or perhaps 350
2. Make all brit inf sniper unit by default - unless upgraded
This gives the brits a mobile inf unit early game for lower cost.
3. Remove the upgrade on them until left tennant is out, so no bren or grenade unless the LT is out.

4. decrease cost of bren carrier to 240, but increase build time slightly.
5. Make sappers without piats a tougher unit = to 4 man inf unit. When piats bought, reduce to current health
6. Allow sappers to have piats only when captain is out

7. Allow sappers to have the ambush back, even if they are equipped without piats.
8. Allow sappers a road block function = at the cost of ammo per road block. If felt appropriate make this available only to engineer faction.
9. Make sappers and air borne the only unit that can trench.
Make sappers have the same demo ability as airborne, not just limited to buildings and bridges as per now.

The above adjusts brits to be a bit more like other factions and to increase their numbers and lower cost slightly.

I'm not sure what to say really. Nothing has been done to alter their early game weakness against PIO spam (one example)-  I've said before how much I appreciate the effort put in, and I also am happy to say that as you guys develop things you'll adjust them. But this seems a big unfair nerf, and I offer my comment here in the hope it can be viewed as constructive.

One last thing.
I appreciate the change log. It would be interesting if someone could perhaps give a reason in the change log for the actual change. That way sometimees as a Player I might understand why an adjustment is made.

Overall, I play Brit quite a lot and this change has pretty much shocked me. I don't understand the nerfing (Apart from kangeroo's perhaps, which I think a change overall was due and most would agree with to some degree)

I dislike the fact that the British were nerfed without much in return too but I do not agree with your ideas, nor do I think the developers will implement them. Your changes involve redesigning the British on a fundamental level which throws their balance out of whack.

I think fixing some more of their bugs would be a good way to compensate for their nerfs. That and making sure Pio-Spam isn't as strong as it was before 1.2 (Even though I believe there are more effective ways of dealing with it... Altering their suppression threshold would have been perfect...).

For the mean time though, I can't bring myself to play the British until their Button-Up ability is fixed.

Last edited August 1, 2010 at 9:44 PM by ChocoboKnight88

Brits were considered OP before the introduction of the Roo in ToV.

The Roo is/was just mental, unbelieveably OP and that's one of the things we fixed.
In fact its the only real nerf along with the OP bren in Bren. Even that is a bug fix as no abilities can be used when units are garisoned in vehicles/buildings
It hardly constitutes as an unfair.
What you list as a ''series of nerfs'' is actually a single unit adjustment-just one!
And its still quite usable and effective...just not cheap as chips

FOO arty was a bug fix, not a nerf.
Piat was a bug fix not a nerf.
How you consider the addition of wire cutters as a nerf is beyond understanding

In all honesty, all I see is a complain about the fact that we fixed two imbalances that were previously abused to get unfair wins.
Learn to win without abusing unbalanced units.

There are no plans to make further changes to vanila balance apart from necessary fixes.

Cheers

Last edited August 1, 2010 at 9:25 PM by Zerstörer

Well...
a) Kangaroo need all that nerfs to become balanced.

b) The Staghound MG was special... why? because it was bugged.

c) Remember about insta arty... it was way OP!!

d) Hitting a vehicle with PIAT is one thing, but to hit a soldier is another story... It's was made by the same reason that a bazooka guy, a panzershreck team or a PTDR team cannot rip infantry.

d) Recon tommies detection improved... Yeah.

e) All engineers must have wirecutters, if not it's bugged, you cannot compare using wirecutters to blow them with PIATs, it's like using a gun to kill a fly. Sappers don't need ambush, just PIATs.

f) Which unit repairs itself without being target of a tree commander ability? When engies repair stuff they receive double damage as I remember, I conclude that logic was applied. Seems that you don't understand that the BC repair rate is huge, you spent more time weakening than that thing in repairs itself.

h)I have nothing to say about button ability.

I'm not going to discuss your suggestions, because I dont like them... that's all and looks like you are a brit fanboy, no offense intended.

ChocoboKnight88 wrote:
...

I think fixing some more of their bugs would be a good way to compensate for their nerfs. That and making sure Pio-Spam isn't as strong as it was before 1.2 (Even though I believe there are more effective ways of dealing with it... Altering their suppression threshold would have been perfect...).

For the mean time though, I can't bring myself to play the British until their Button-Up ability is fixed.

+1

Last edited August 1, 2010 at 9:25 PM by blackbishop

Pios no longer get elite armour at vet2 meaning Brits can rip them apart-that constitutes as a fix for that problem

The fixed pak is also a big boost to brits and US and in a far bigger way than the Roo or the Button

Last edited August 1, 2010 at 9:31 PM by Zerstörer

Zerstörer wrote:
Brits were considered OP before the introduction of the Roo in ToV.

The Roo is/was just mental, unbelieveably OP and that's one of the things we fixed.
In fact its the only real nerf along with the OP bren in Bren. Even that is a bug fix as no abilities can be used when units are garisoned in vehicles/buildings
It hardly constitutes as an unfair.
What you list as a ''series of nerfs'' is actually a single unit adjustment-just one!
And its still quite usable and effective...just not cheap as chips

FOO arty was a bug fix, not a nerf.
Piat was a bug fix not a nerf.
How you consider the addition of wire cutters as a nerf is beyond understanding

In all honesty, all I see is a complain about the fact that we fixed two imbalances that were previously abused to get unfair wins.
Learn to win without abusing unbalanced units.

There are no plans to make further changes to vanila balance apart from necessary fixes.

Cheers

The bren was OP for a reason. The lack of INF/Mobility and enormous cost for brits REQUIRE something like the bren. And now its nerfed again.

The brits were not OP before kanger.
The kanger is OP but loaded Kangers cost a LOT. This seems to have be misread by many. A kangeroo loaded costs potentially more than 1000 + addional costs in Ammo and weapons.
The kanger could have been amended - like only having one officer slot and one squad slot only.
The kanger is one of the few late game teeth brits have.
The NERFS are nerfs, and removal of the ambush and claiming its not nerfed is just flat out wrong.

As for the rest of your comments, well, its clear you have a chip on shoulder as some do about Brits. No matter, all I tried to say was this came across as a lot of nerfing, and it is a lot of nerfing. If the teams intention is to make no more large scale changes - re brits, then the brits are now again badly imbalanced in multiple ways.

(I note your point regarding Pios in thread - and true, that helps with a balance issue - Thanks)

Here's my thoughts on the changes.

Quote* Kangaroo Manpower cost increased to 300 from 240.
* Kangaroo Fuel cost increased to 45 from 10.
* Kangaroo Health decrease from 650 to 550.
* Kangaroo Build time increased from 35 to 45 seconds.

Great changes. Not quite as hard hitting as the changes I had in mind but if the experts think it's okay now...

Quote* Staghound MG Gunner is now in line with other MG Gunners.

I agree that their MG was overpowered but I honestly think that these changes (Maybe a nerf to it's health too) make it justifiable to have it replace the Stuart instead of the Command Tank. It's not a fair tradeoff anymore.

Quote* Increase delay of Forward Observation Officers (FOO) from 2.0 to 2.75 seconds.

I agree with this too. It's not too much at all. I can still take out MG and Mortar Teams easily with this time frame while it still let's my enemy have a chance to move his main infantry out of the area if he reacts immediately.

Quote* PIAT accuracy vs infantry reduced.

I've never relied of PIAT Sappers for Anti-Infantry duty so I'm indifferent to this change. But if this allows for there to be one less thing to complain about from the community, I'm all for it!

Quote* Recon Tommies can now detect snipers while moving.

It's only common sense to fix what is broken after all. :)

Quote* Sappers now has wire cutters.

This is not a nerf at all. You just need to be careful not to click directly on the sandbags. But even so, I find natural cover to be more reliable than sandbags anyway. It makes it less predictable as to where my Sappers are that way.

Quote* Bren Carrier now receives double damage while repairing.

This is a smart change that I welcome wholeheartedly. While I am a fan of Sappers in Bren Carriers, this makes things a lot fairer for the opposing side. Auto repair is no longer a bulletproof shield you can activate when you get in trouble. People were suggesting nerfing their base stats which would have destroyed the Bren Carrier's viability. I'm glad the developers made the right decision to focus on the real problem, auto-repair.

To correct AdmV0rl0n, the Bren Carrier can still use it's weapons during auto-repair, provided that you never upgraded it yet. When you fill the Bren Carrier with Bren-equipped infantry, all weapons remain operational while it's health regenerates at a rate faster than the enemy can damage it during early game. This made the Bren-in-Bren overpowered. Something needed to be done.

Quote* Tommy Bren gun can no longer use Button Up while garrisoned.

Provided that the change works as intended, it would help greatly reduce the Kangaroos immense power. Sure, I'm going to miss being able to button from building and trenches but I doubt it it was possible to ban button from being used in vehicles alone anyway.

QuotePios no longer get elite armour at vet2 meaning Brits can rip them apart-that constitutes as a fix for that problem

The fixed pak is also a big boost to brits and US and in a far bigger way than the Roo or the Button

True, it makes them vulnerable for longer to small arms fire. But when it comes to team games, it's not going to help as much. The enemy won't be as easy to cut off from fuel and he'll be free to reach Vet 3 soon enough. It only delays the inevitable. That's why I feel it isn't enough. Just my opinion.

The Pak being fixed is also a great way to help the allies, I agree. There's no question about that.

All I'm really after personally is a few bug fixes that makes things work as intended. But seeing as to how Commandos gaining veterancy from Officers doesn't seem to be on the agenda, may I ask what it is that stops the developers from making this change, despite it clearly being a bug? Because it's unnecessary?

Last edited August 1, 2010 at 10:21 PM by ChocoboKnight88

re Kangeroo changes.
Not great changes. The kangeroo to be useful cost at least 240+320+10 fuel+75 ammo. However, I'm not too adverse on this, as I think it is true the kangeroo needed amendment.

Sappers.
I don't care about wether it gets wirecutters. I care that giving them wirecutters and removing the ambush is not seen as a nerf. You can add in there the forever annoyed about brit never being able to block a road. But all aside, I actually don't care whatanyone else says, I'm saying its a nerf because the ambush has been removed. And it was and is the only brit hidden unit, so yes, its a Nerf from where I sit.

"To correct AdmV0rl0n, the Bren Carrier can still use it's weapons during auto-repair, provided that you never upgraded it yet. When you fill the Bren Carrier with Bren-equipped infantry, all weapons remain operational while regenerates it's health at a rate faster than the enemy can damage it during early game. This made the Bren-in-Bren overpowered. Something needed to be done."

To correct you, caveats like 'so long as you have not upgraded it yet' eliminate your point. A bren under repair becomes useless and to a greater extend ceases to actually fight, ESPECIALLY the upgunned model. And it was never OP, it was a sop provided because the Brit inf costs so much something had to be provided that was mobile and hard hitting early game. But its ok, its only about the 1000th nerf to the bren in COH history, its not like yet another one changes anything.

And now I'm actually antagonised, because none of you seem to have realised the brit ambush has been wacked.

QuoteTo correct you, caveats like 'so long as you have not upgraded it yet' eliminate your point. A bren under repair becomes useless and to a greater extend ceases to actually fight, ESPECIALLY the upgunned model. And it was never OP, it was a sop provided because the Brit inf costs so much something had to be provided that was mobile and hard hitting early game. But its ok, its only about the 1000th nerf to the bren in COH history, its not like yet another one changes anything.

I'm not out to antagonise you. You said that the Bren Carrier's weapons cease to function when auto repair is activated. This is a misleading statement since it only applies to upgunned Bren Carriers (Which is widely agreed on as being balanced). It's also true that the Bren Carriers has been nerfed several times in the past but it also recieved great buffs. Such as having increased health when upgunned and recieving the Button ability.

You are looking at the sandbag change in the completely wrong way. Look at the positives like being able to use unupgraded Sappers to destroy the enemy's wire and sandbags for free. Plus Sappers don't need to rely on sandbags alone for their ambush ability to work. Any light and heavy cover on the battlefield work nicely. Plus it's not like you need to click directly on the sandbags to make infantry use them. You can click right next to them to avoid destroying them with your wire cutters. Sure, there could be a potential of clicking them by accident but it's still avoidable.

ChocoboKnight88 wrote:

QuoteTo correct you, caveats like 'so long as you have not upgraded it yet' eliminate your point. A bren under repair becomes useless and to a greater extend ceases to actually fight, ESPECIALLY the upgunned model. And it was never OP, it was a sop provided because the Brit inf costs so much something had to be provided that was mobile and hard hitting early game. But its ok, its only about the 1000th nerf to the bren in COH history, its not like yet another one changes anything.

I'm not out to antagonise you. You said that the Bren Carrier's weapons cease to function when auto repair is activated. This is a misleading statement since it only applies to upgunned Bren Carriers (Which is widely agreed on as being balanced). It's also true that the Bren Carriers has been nerfed several times in the past but it also recieved great buffs. Such as having increased health when upgunned and recieving the Button ability.

You are looking at the sandbag change in the completely wrong way. Look at the positives like being able to use unupgraded Sappers to destroy the enemy's wire and sandbags for free. Plus Sappers don't need to rely on sandbags alone for their ambush ability to work. Any light and heavy cover on the battlefield work nicely. Plus it's not like you need to click directly on the sandbags to make infantry use them. You can click right next to them to avoid destroying them with your wire cutters. Sure, there could be a potential of clicking them by accident but it's still avoidable.

I'll have to check this. I've noted the icon is missing. Perhaps the ability is there automatcially now when in cover.
If so, then its true, no nerf

Just checked for you. It would seem that Sappers lose their Wirecutters when upgraded with PIATs and gain their Ambush ability. Looks like your ambush tactics aren't in danger at all. :)

QuoteIn all honesty, all I see is a complain about the fact that we fixed two imbalances that were previously abused to get unfair wins.
Learn to win without abusing unbalanced units.

I'll admit that I reacted badly when I first saw the changelog but I'm over it now. Almost none of the changes in anyway truly impact the way I play the British. But I was still hoping that Commando vet and Demo Sappers would be fixed. One can only dream I suppose.

Last edited August 1, 2010 at 11:00 PM by ChocoboKnight88

If it as up to me, I think all infantry should have a ambush button when in heavy cover. But of course people will shout OP OP OP OP. I am a expert on ambushes and COH makes it really hard.

ChocoboKnight88 wrote:
But I was still hoping that Commando vet and Demo Sappers would be fixed. One can only dream I suppose.

Indeed, but what do you mean with Demo Sappers. Do you mean Demo's as Commando Demo's, so that you can place them everywhere?

Seeme wrote:
I am a expert on ambushes and COH makes it really hard.

:D

Last edited August 1, 2010 at 11:26 PM by GreenApple

QuoteDo you mean Demo's as Commando Demo's, so that you can place them everywhere?

Hell no! That's just plain unnecessary. I'm refering to the bug that causes the Demo Sapper's modifiers to break. You know how Relic made the change to make Demo Sappers move like Recon Sections in enemy territory? Well it's kind of buggy.

As long as Demo Sappers aren't near any Lieutenants, they can move back and forth between friendly and enemy territory much like Recon Sections can. But if they are caught in the Lieutenant's aura even once while in uncontrolled territory, they become dependent on the Lieutenant to move through that territory, just like normal infantry. If the Lieutenant gets killed or moves away from the Demo Sappers while they are in enemy territory, Demo Sappers will move as slow as Infantry Sections through uncontrolled territory.

This bug bothers me so much because I was the very person who suggested this change during the playtest Relic had before TOV was released. To have them support Recon Sections when flanking enemy defences without having to break your Lieutenants away from your main forces. The change was also made when I explained that it also helps them clear mines more effectively without having having to drag a vulnerable Lieutenant along. Relic implemented and kept the change beyond the playtest but it wasn't implemented correctly.

I think it has something to do with Demo Sappers not being not treated as an exception to the Lieutenant's speed modifier. Something like that anyway... YurdleTheTurtle knows how to fix it for sure since he fixed it in his mod.

Last edited August 2, 2010 at 12:06 AM by ChocoboKnight88

I DO NOT agree with the nerf to the roos but as to the sappers im indifferent , never used piat or ordinary sappers for anti infantry duties  , dissapointed with the bren tommies(who the devil thinks its op)

brits dont have any late game anti infantry measure


cromwells - how many will you make??

commando hmg - late game , doctrine specific

bren or riflenades tommies cease to exist afore mp44 and pz4 if or lmg or .....you knw wht


The roo was the only late game ai measure , nerfing it was unecessary



I'd like to have a chat with these "EXPERTS" who suggested these nerfs


I think they want to make brits a completely defensive faction

The Comet is a welcome change , i loved it , can take on panzers at close ranges now , great job developers on this one!!

There is no such thing as 'OP for a reason'.That's trying to justify the unjustifiable.
OP is not acceptable in balance. That's the whole point of balance, to make sure units are not OP cause they break the game

Quotere Kangeroo changes.
Not great changes. The kangeroo to be useful cost at least 240+320+10 fuel+75 ammo. However, I'm not too adverse on this, as I think it is true the kangeroo needed amendment.

No, that's like saying the WH halftrack transporting a squad of grens with 2 shreks sent to destroy a bunker costs 220mp+300mp+20FU+150ammo.
This reasoning is beyond silly and wrong. With the same 'incorrect thinking' and by comparison the fragile halftracks should only cost about 50mp and nothing else!

When you get to Level16-20 in all factions, aka their level then maybe you could question them. alternatively, go to Gameplays.org and post your concern on our threads there and 'question the experts'. I'll be happy to sit and watch the 'debate'

Last edited August 2, 2010 at 6:39 AM by Zerstörer

I agree with Zerstoerer.

What you should be stating is that "Brits can still fight endgame but I personally don't know how to do so without exploiting ridiculously OP vehicles of doom."

The current Brit weak period is actually midgame, when grenspam begins against them before they have to correct counters up. By endgame, you should have the full array of arty powers to soften up the blob before yours crushes him. Brit tanks are also very good, made all the better by the massive nerf to Paks. Croms are very fast and accurate against infantry, meaning that an attack in the right place can hurt him majorly and you can retreat before any of his AT shows up. They also come extremely early, for a tank.

Don't make assumptions of balance without the experience/knowledge to go behind it.

Well well keep up to it , i'm not the first and i'll be not be the last :D :D

blackbishop wrote:


Well...
a) Kangaroo need all that nerfs to become balanced.

b) The Staghound MG was special... why? because it was bugged.

c) Remember about insta arty... it was way OP!!

d) Hitting a vehicle with PIAT is one thing, but to hit a soldier is another story... It's was made by the same reason that a bazooka guy, a panzershreck team or a PTDR team cannot rip infantry.

d) Recon tommies detection improved... Yeah.

e) All engineers must have wirecutters, if not it's bugged, you cannot compare using wirecutters to blow them with PIATs, it's like using a gun to kill a fly. Sappers don't need ambush, just PIATs.

f) Which unit repairs itself without being target of a tree commander ability? When engies repair stuff they receive double damage as I remember, I conclude that logic was applied. Seems that you don't understand that the BC repair rate is huge, you spent more time weakening than that thing in repairs itself.

h)I have nothing to say about button ability.

I'm not going to discuss your suggestions, because I dont like them... that's all and looks like you are a brit fanboy, no offense intended.

+1

Completely agree. ;)

AbhMkh wrote:
Well well keep up to it , i'm not the first and i'll be not be the last :D :D

Seems to be that you are a CW bigot.
I like the Brits, but I'm happy about all CW changes.
I don't like ToV, I don't want to tolerate combining the two words Brits and Abuse anymore.
With these changes the CW is no longer the specific Abusefaction.

I don't understand your mindset, I mean this is positive.
The Brits will be respected by the communityplayers.

That's unlikely, they still break several of the fundamentals of CoH. They're pretty balanced in a 1v1 now from what I can tell but they still break 2v2AT because of the mobile HQ. They'll be much MORE respected though.

Level 16 Wher, Retake2 ;D

I do come from a CW nation :D , however thts nt the reason why i play with british , i play british cuz it suits my style of play

I'll nt debate any longer on the brits , but after this patch the germans have grown stronger for the brits and the russians

cheers :D

Yes, a bit stronger.

Zerstörer wrote:
There is no such thing as 'OP for a reason'.That's trying to justify the unjustifiable.
OP is not acceptable in balance. That's the whole point of balance, to make sure units are not OP cause they break the game

Quotere Kangeroo changes.
Not great changes. The kangeroo to be useful cost at least 240+320+10 fuel+75 ammo. However, I'm not too adverse on this, as I think it is true the kangeroo needed amendment.

No, that's like saying the WH halftrack transporting a squad of grens with 2 shreks sent to destroy a bunker costs 220mp+300mp+20FU+150ammo.
This reasoning is beyond silly and wrong. With the same 'incorrect thinking' and by comparison the fragile halftracks should only cost about 50mp and nothing else!

When you get to Level16-20 in all factions, aka their level then maybe you could question them. alternatively, go to Gameplays.org and post your concern on our threads there and 'question the experts'. I'll be happy to sit and watch the 'debate'

Maybe you should actually read what I said before going totally off. Seriously, I said they had some OP and needed some amendment, but I pointed out their cost. Further, the reason they are used late game is totally clear. And frankly its not like other factions don't have vehicles of doom with Vet 3 late game. Further, the brits are imbalanced late game to a spectacular level if you're simply nerfing the roo's, and make no other changes.

While you are busy nerfing the hell out of the brits, of which nominally I welcome if its a general thing to improve the game overall, and the odd error creeps in, but its rather clear now that many hold a chip on shoulder about the brit faction, and have every intention of cutting the few edges off them.

If you want, I can congratulate you and the 16-20 level players who you cite for returning the brits to their roots of being a sim city doctrine unable to actually strike mobile or with decent punch, especially late game.

GreenApple wrote:
I like the Brits, but I'm happy about all CW changes.
I don't like ToV, I don't want to tolerate combining the two words Brits and Abuse anymore.
With these changes the CW is no longer the specific Abusefaction.

I don't understand your mindset, I mean this is positive.
The Brits will be respected by the communityplayers.

I feel the exact same way. I am fed up with the constant, relentless and bias hatred that the British face every single day on every single forum and how your achievements with the British aren't recognised because of it. If this patch transforms this opinion and has the British recognised as a legit faction, it will become the best patch ever released since I started playing Opposing Fronts. Well, minus the unfortunate mishap of making Button-Up work the opposite way from intended.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I agree with Zerstoerer.

What you should be stating is that "Brits can still fight endgame but I personally don't know how to do so without exploiting ridiculously OP vehicles of doom."

The current Brit weak period is actually midgame, when grenspam begins against them before they have to correct counters up. By endgame, you should have the full array of arty powers to soften up the blob before yours crushes him. Brit tanks are also very good, made all the better by the massive nerf to Paks. Croms are very fast and accurate against infantry, meaning that an attack in the right place can hurt him majorly and you can retreat before any of his AT shows up. They also come extremely early, for a tank.

Don't make assumptions of balance without the experience/knowledge to go behind it.

Yes, the brits are weakest at midgame, but hey, they get the cromwell out very early. Apart from the fact they blunted Roo's, which leaves you a cromwell command tank or no cromwells.

I'm taking a new view on this. Firstly, I don't care if Roo's handed your ass on a platter to you, by late game if you are lacking AT - thats your own problem. Secondly, Brit Roos nor anything else are overpowered. If you lose to them its more a failing of your own rather than them being OP.

Still, keep nerfing them, anything to make you feel better.

AdmV0rl0n wrote:
Still, keep nerfing them, anything to make you feel better.

Sorry, but I guess none other support your opinion about the Kangaroo.
Now the crucial question: Is one person on solid ground or hm ... let me think briefly ... approximate 5000 persons?

Opine as you think best.

Cheers

Last edited August 2, 2010 at 11:27 PM by GreenApple

GreenApple wrote:

AdmV0rl0n wrote:
Still, keep nerfing them, anything to make you feel better.

Sorry, but I guess none other support your opinion about the Kangaroo.
Now the crucial question: Is one person on solid ground or hm ... let me think briefly ... approximate 5000 persons?

Opine as you think best.

Cheers

Yeah, belive whatever makes you happier :-\.

Will be a hotfix for the "button enemy vehicle" bug ??? or 'till the next patch :-X?

WTF r u guys talking abt? ::)

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the brits are basically a highly defensive faction , provided with mobility due to their CTs , they can construct their emplacements deep down the line , most players have a probblem with this , u dont want a 17 pounder firing on your panzers the moment they come out of the tank depot , this is essentially a brit design issue , our "experts" here want to compensate for this mobility by nerfing the units, but they forget tht emplacemwnts can only be built in tier 2 save the mg and mortar

its like u build an mg a mortar and a 17 pounder along a road and nothing crosses this way

"OMG" this so OP!

CHANGE THE WAY U PLAY!!!!

Last edited August 3, 2010 at 1:11 AM by AbhMkh

I have no idea what AbhMkh just said...

AdmV0rl0n: To be frank, you're an idiot. Kangs were incredibly OP and deserved the nerf. I won't even bother explaining why seeing as you won't be persuaded anyway. In short, they cost far more to counter, in resources and micro capacity, than to use. You're also being overly dramatic. Only two units received noticeable nerfs, those being the kang and bren carrier, both almost unanimously considered OP by (clearly) far better players than yourself.

You seem to be pretty resistant to persuasion so the topic must be personally relevant to you. Maybe YOU should learn how to use something else. Brits are an excellent attacking force, when used correctly. You should also revisit some of the CoH history. Brits made simcities because of ridiculously good overrepair, not because kangs weren't invented yet. Brit endgame is better than ever due to the MBT comet and Pak nerfs, and more fun for everyone involved.

Oh, and I'm not biased for, or against the British faction. I've played more 1v1 automatches as Brits (without kangs/BiB) than any other faction and have played top players on the leaderboards. But I also play the other factions. Maybe you should take a step back and see what perspective you're looking at these changes from.

EDIT:

AdmV0rl0n wrote:
...
And frankly its not like other factions don't have vehicles of doom with Vet 3 late game.
...

Yes, but it actually matters if you lose these. They also don't completely disable their target vehicle (while still moving), before popping out an officer to insta-arty any infantry that comes to it's rescue.

Last edited August 3, 2010 at 2:10 AM by GodlikeDennis

AbhMkh wrote:
CHANGE THE WAY U PLAY!!!!

CHANGE THE WAY U THINK!!!

Brits certainly had a high amount of bullshit they could throw out in 2.6, but I think it should be pretty obvious that once you move into the mid-game they're severely lacking. Especially with these (appropriate) nerfs.

Oh, oh wait, I mean without Roo/Staghound ridiculousness. Of course.

They have very few options for dealing with Elite Armour and moving Vehicles. Their scaling is very bad. Their tanks are gimicky if they don't win with shock value.

A couple of things I consider good changes:

- Make the Recon Section into a desirable upgrade. You don't want it overpowering in the first few minutes of course, since you get it for free. The Marksman in the squad uses a unique weapon - give it hefty damage/accuracy bonuses against Elite Armour, similar to a Sniper's bonuses against Elite Armour.

- Veterancy and scaling. You're far better off with 3 unvetted Lieutenants than 1 or even 2 vetted ones. Decrease the stackable, unvetted bonuses but increase the modifiers achieved with Vet 2/3 above and beyond what was taken away.

- Rifle Grenades vs Elite Armour. All Grenades do 1.0x damage to all infantry except Rifle Grenades, which do 25% less damage to Elite Armour. Increase to the standard 1.0x.

Just addressing Infantry combat in the late game, I think these three things would help even out the Commonwealth against Elite Armour Grens without having to resort to un-fun, roundabout bull like Commando Democharges and FOO.

Rifle Grenades and Recon Elements would be the go-to choices for fighting Elite Armour Infantry, while the Bren Gun remains useful for its role in British AV.

:O!!!

Completely agree with Kolaris. I wonder what think of this the dev team ???.

Each to his own :P :P :P :P

I did wonder why the patch didn't address Brit vet stacking. The other points I care less about but are still important.

I think the Brits could do with some additions or adaptations to make them more effective.


Reason i say this is they eat up manpower so quickly.
Their commando's cost too much for their effectiveness.

Although they are practically an army in their own right if used well enough the commandos just seem wasted on the british and i would like to see them reduced in cost. or increased abilities or stats to make them worth picking in the doctrine tree.

Their fixed emplacements and trenches are very vulnerable to mortar fire.
Other than the churchills or the Comet the Brits are weak in offensive armour. Even then your precious 500 manpower + is a bullet magnet for the German anti-armour capabilities.
I would welcome a strategy for the brits that works other than arty them to hell and back.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
I have no idea what AbhMkh just said...

AdmV0rl0n: To be frank, you're an idiot. Kangs were incredibly OP and deserved the nerf. I won't even bother explaining why seeing as you won't be persuaded anyway. In short, they cost far more to counter, in resources and micro capacity, than to use. You're also being overly dramatic. Only two units received noticeable nerfs, those being the kang and bren carrier, both almost unanimously considered OP by (clearly) far better players than yourself.

You seem to be pretty resistant to persuasion so the topic must be personally relevant to you. Maybe YOU should learn how to use something else. Brits are an excellent attacking force, when used correctly. You should also revisit some of the CoH history. Brits made simcities because of ridiculously good overrepair, not because kangs weren't invented yet. Brit endgame is better than ever due to the MBT comet and Pak nerfs, and more fun for everyone involved.

Oh, and I'm not biased for, or against the British faction. I've played more 1v1 automatches as Brits (without kangs/BiB) than any other faction and have played top players on the leaderboards. But I also play the other factions. Maybe you should take a step back and see what perspective you're looking at these changes from.

EDIT:

AdmV0rl0n wrote:
...
And frankly its not like other factions don't have vehicles of doom with Vet 3 late game.
...

Yes, but it actually matters if you lose these. They also don't completely disable their target vehicle (while still moving), before popping out an officer to insta-arty any infantry that comes to it's rescue.

I was never persuaded, I merely got abused from early thread. No matter. What I'm going to do is actually go away and play, because actually, I was a little unfair in the fact I;ve not rerad the nerfs and amendments elsewhere in terms of other factions, and from talking to friends, there are notable other changes which mean taking the brit changes and forming a view without examining the others is an inbalanced view anyway.

The brit faction has been nerfed forever, nothing new, and its always been notable anyone not sharing in the peer pressured nonsense gets abuse.

For the record, its probably right the kangeroo's were out of balance. The point I tried to make is large portions of the brit faction are, and I always though the roos were a make up for other areas.

One of the other things is I don't know about all the changes, as I say, I will go away and test some more, but post 2.6, glaring holes in the brits were painfully obvious, at least to me.

1. Commando's were wrecked and get no vet. Late game PE inf chew the crap out of these 'elite' troops.
2. The firefly and 17 pounder have a lower range than marders.
3. Churchills are only viable in early and midgame, and are totally screwed late game. Churchills are nominally the only way a brit can bust a road block in terms of vehicles. The engineers have only very minor ways of utilising ammo.
4. The inf late game are screwed.
5. FF and other brit tanks are murdered end game by both AXIS AT inf and armour.

None of these things were ever offset by the Cromwell and stag mid game bump. And lastly, the early game costs have always utterly crippled brits and no the moving trucks ceased to make up for it once mid game arrives because moving in midgame leaves the truck in mortal damage if its found in the open.

As for all the whining about kangeroo's, I regard most of it as whining, because the cost of loading a kangeroo, from a position generally of the early game holding less map + generally getting less reasource required a good player to be able to actually gather enough to make the move anyway. Anyone who can pool or float enough to fill two or more kangeroo's in a serious fight is doing well. As for the insta arty, its not is it, the player would need enough ammo to equip the sappers with Piats and to float 125 ammo to commit to the task. None of this is free.

The costs incurred in loading kangeroos mean - at least to me, the briit has to float serious amounts of ammo and manpower to make this move, and given the already from early game heavy weight limits on what they can create manpower wise, you have to have been having an ineffective game and the brit will have had to have played well to commit to this.

Anyway, no matter. I'l go play this and have a look around.

Our "experts" somehow don't understand this , plain roo is as useless as a ket , there are two ways of putting the roo

AI

2 bren tommies - 900 mp 150 mun, 1 Lt - i dont remember the MP , 1 piat or normal sapper - 320 mp and 75 ammmo agin

total cost = 1220 mp + Lt mp + 225 amm0 + 10 fuel+ roo mp


AT

2 piat sappers - 640 mp , 150 mun , 1 Bren Tommie - 450 mp , 75 mun , Lt mp


total cost = 1090 mp + 225 mun + Lt mp + 10 fuel + roo mp


I dont understand how can nyone call the above as OP

AdmV0rl0n wrote:
2. The firefly and 17 pounder have a lower range than marders.

Firefly with Tankcommander + Cromwellcommandtank => Furthes range in CoH except 88.

AbhMkh wrote:
Our "experts" somehow don't understand this , plain roo is as useless as a ket , there are two ways of putting the roo

AI

2 bren tommies - 900 mp 150 mun, 1 Lt - i dont remember the MP , 1 piat or normal sapper - 320 mp and 75 ammmo agin

total cost = 1220 mp + Lt mp + 225 amm0 + 10 fuel+ roo mp


AT

2 piat sappers - 640 mp , 150 mun , 1 Bren Tommie - 450 mp , 75 mun , Lt mp


total cost = 1090 mp + 225 mun + Lt mp + 10 fuel + roo mp


I dont understand how can nyone call the above as OP

Because the 240 Manpower/10 Fuel part added durability that was not proportional to its cost. So now it does.

No AbhMkh, somehow YOU don't understand this. The rest of the troops don't die with the kang - they are recyclable. Their cost therefore doesn't factor in. It's like calling in a Tiger for 900mp, but when it dies each subsequent Tiger is only 50mp. A little unfair right?

AdmV0rl0n: Since English appears not to be your first language and you won't seem to listen I'll not debate with you much longer. There isn't any peer pressure abuse, you are simply wrong in your arguments. You have been provided with counter arguments yet you still cling to your position despite having the rebuttals being made by far more knowledgeble and skilled players than you. Balance is gauged by the majority opinion of the (informed) community. Balance is absolutely not achieved by making some units OP to compensate for UP things. Every single unit must be balanced so that it gets used frequently for it's intended purpose, and not abused.

GreenApple wrote:

AdmV0rl0n wrote:
2. The firefly and 17 pounder have a lower range than marders.

Firefly with Tankcommander + Cromwellcommandtank => Furthes range in CoH except 88.

You can't keep quoting that the staghound is OP waaa waa and then keep stating that the brits have longest range cos of the command tank. Make up your mind.

Maybe you'd like to have made the original case of the brits gain a powerful tool midgame, but lose their ranged gear, or they choose range and lose the stag. The brits lose something in either case, and frankly, nerfing the stag means they lose both in one case. If you nerf the stag, fine, at least return the command ability.

Tell me, how do you feel about being a defensive doctrine that is both out ranged, and outgunned? Maybe you should spend some time watching marders tearing apart your emplacements and having nothing really to solve that.

Seriously, if you are going to make a case, make good ones.

blackbishop wrote:

GreenApple wrote:

AdmV0rl0n wrote:
Still, keep nerfing them, anything to make you feel better.

Sorry, but I guess none other support your opinion about the Kangaroo.
Now the crucial question: Is one person on solid ground or hm ... let me think briefly ... approximate 5000 persons?

Opine as you think best.

Cheers

Yeah, belive whatever makes you happier :-\.

Will be a hotfix for the "button enemy vehicle" bug ??? or 'till the next patch :-X?

There will be a mini patch coming today or tomorrow with a few more amendments including the button fix, yes

GodlikeDennis wrote:
No AbhMkh, somehow YOU don't understand this. The rest of the troops don't die with the kang - they are recyclable. Their cost therefore doesn't factor in. It's like calling in a Tiger for 900mp, but when it dies each subsequent Tiger is only 50mp. A little unfair right?

AdmV0rl0n: Since English appears not to be your first language and you won't seem to listen I'll not debate with you much longer. There isn't any peer pressure abuse, you are simply wrong in your arguments. You have been provided with counter arguments yet you still cling to your position despite having the rebuttals being made by far more knowledgeble and skilled players than you. Balance is gauged by the majority opinion of the (informed) community. Balance is absolutely not achieved by making some units OP to compensate for UP things. Every single unit must be balanced so that it gets used frequently for it's intended purpose, and not abused.

Get your facts straight, in most cases, part of the crews die when Kangeroos are killed.

Secondly, you;re bashing the brits claiming they have the range, in a thread where everyone whined about the staghound. So, having read your name calling and sliding in the 'English is not my first language' - maybe you'd like to stick to things said here, and actually make the case.

The brits don't get the range if they take a stag, therefore, they get a mid game bump. If whining about the stag is taking place, it has to be ofset by the _fact_ the brits pay for it. It is not a one way OP.

I get your point Godlike Dennis , about the recyclable thing , but tell me do you field just kangaroo??


lets say you field 2 roos which require an investment of about 3000 mp and they get destroyed  pretty quick as they are highly vulnerable to AT fire

Then do you think the player will be in a position to invest nymore in the roos or for tht matter any other unit , cuz while hes sending the roos in the thick of the batttle he's plans on making more units...... ::)


Its like sporting 5 panthers on the field and coming back for more when they are destroyed ... , think about it...



And hey no quarrels man, AdmV0rl0n , Godlike Dennis just state your points dont implicate nybody,no abuses please , thank god we dont have many americans on this forum ;), easy lads easy...


Ps : English is the first language of only the commonwealth and USA(they too fall under the category of commonwealth whether they like it or not) , i dont think any other country has english as its first language

I have no idea how you think stags enter into this Adm. My point about English not being your first language (it it's true) was due to your sometimes poor grammar that made reading bits of your posts difficult and I couldn't know if you were understanding my arguments correctly. I'm not trying to bully you but you're extremely stubborn, and wrong.

In the hands of a semi-decent player the crew of the kang will never die because they are ejected when it is low on health, they then instantly retreat (Brits have better retreat bonuses than the other factions as well). The stag had an MG gunner that was far better than any other and suppressed as well. This was widely considered OP.

This argument is over. You've lost. Stop reusing the same failure arguments and actually try to come up with a good reason why kangs did not deserve the nerf. Oh wait... you can't for some reason...

AbhMkh: If you reread my Tiger analogy, you might see what I mean. Sure, you need to obtain the upfront cost. But each subsequent kang only costs a fraction of the original cost because you use the same troops from the first.

@GodlikeDennis

Well its true that people probaly agree with you more, you cant just shoot people down say you won. If he feels that it shouldnt have been nerfed, he can tell the people and the devs decide. Well, as long as hes not being a idiot over it, he can talk about it. You dont like it, dont repley.

Last edited August 4, 2010 at 7:17 PM by Seeme

Ohh really :o :o :o