1.20 Patch note/play impressions

Very nice changes in the change log,

Looking forward to seeing how piospam is affected by that vet switch. 

I was surprised by a couple also though, but the experts could probably enlighten me as to why they suggested these changes. 

The armored car is very fragile, but it is and has been a staple unit because it is incredibly effective.  It isn't underused, it doesn't seem to be underpowered.  It's a bitch to kill if the other player microes it well, so I"m not sure why it got a health boost.  I worry that this could be pretty devistating in early to mid game.

I worry the same thing about brens not being able to button from trenches.  I understand why they can't from bren carriers, but as somebody who plays brit a lot, I'm wondering exactly how to keep my bren squad alive when it tries to button the fast ac/mp44 base rush that comes in the awkward transition between t1 and t2.  At least when the weapon is effective from a trench, it forces the PE player to slow his tech slightly for a 20 fuel incendiary upgrade.  Now there's very little risk to overextending the ac, especially with its new hit points. 

That coupled with the nerf to the bren carrier repair(which I'm not saying was a bad thing), is going to make an existing brit vulnerability all the more so.

I would have preferred a slight scout car hp increase(as an underused unit) to that of acs.  (also some love for at grenades though I'm not sure what that love should be without overpowering them against brit emplacements)

also no mention of the ostwind firing bug. 

Still, that's an amazingly short list of concerns. (I do use tigers and pershing's alot at current cost, so I'm a little bit nervous about the better pricing, but we'll see).

By the way, the russian changes all sound great so far.  I love that the command squad artillery unlocks at vet1.  smart change.

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 9:00 PM by Joshua9

let's just wait for the patch and discuss it after playing. those changes were recommended by some very skilled and experienced coh players, so they'll probably do fine.

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 4:39 PM by El Tigre

Yeah, some of these things may be hard to get a feel for though, without a ladder setup to bring anything op bubbling to the top.  I have a feeling the discussion will always be in conjecture land, so I figured I'd start jumping to conclusions early...heh

I'm sure one or two things were left off the patch notes by accident as well. For one, the PE goliath is now detectable so I assume the wehr one is too, which isn't written. I had heard that AT nades follow the target now which isn't present in the patch notes. (They're already OP vs brit emplacements btw).

Brens being able to button from inside things was more or less a bug, since nothing else can be used from inside garrisons/transports. ACs are a little too vulnerable to small arms at the moment so this should help a little, and scout cars aren't really that underused at all. If fact, they're an excellent unit.

The devs really didn't change much because they don't want to create some hideous frankengame balance wise. Instead they're just going for the absolute necessary changes that are being demanded by the community constantly but relic does nothing about them. I think a change to trenches should've been made though, making them only buildable after the field support hits the field. Recon to his cutoff - Trench from the get go is stupid. The changes that have been made though are utterly fantastic. It's like Christmas!

interesting that the bren use in trenches might be a bug.  I still think it will be some difficult times for brits without that bug.  I don't actually do forward trenching very often, but i've played against it, and don't find it that much of a problem, and it gives brits some flexible openings, so I would prefer that not be touched.  fast grab of incendiaries is simple enough, and flamers are even easier to acquire. 

point taken about the scout car.  I see it againt brit semi-regularly...against american, I've run into it( used quite effectively) in a transition to a fast armored car, though rarely.  I've managed to eek out a very modest level 9 with a scout car to panzer 4 rush(and probably wont get any higher)...but scout cars are so fricking fragile...what I would give for just 5 to 10 more hitpoints on each.  Their effective combat window against americans feels like 30 seconds to a minute.

but it still doesn't seem to be used that often(my guess is because there are better, or at least easier options).

I'll take your word for the ac's, and see how it plays out. 

good to hear about possible following function in the at grenade throws.

As I see it, the British have been smashed in the face with the nerf bat once again with little to remedy it. Mind you, they were needed changes but I doubt it's going to help people enjoy playing as them, just vs them.

Quote* Recon Tommies can now detect snipers while moving.
* Sappers now has wire cutters.

These are good to have but that's really all they get that helps them in a direct sense but they are welcome changes. But they could really use a few more fixes like the fact that Commandos having no vet at all. They aren't able to benefit from being in the Lieutenant's aura at all and are stuck with Stens that are the equivalent to Vet 0 Ranger Thompsons for the rest of the game (Both of which were nerfed by Relic at one point and have the exact same stats).

Rangers with Thompsons are still great because they can vet and become stronger as the game progresses whereas the Commandos don't get this benefit despite being the most expensive infantry in the game. With this change, they would be able to scale through the game just like every other unit without being buffed in a way that will bring them back into the OP days destroying all the infantry in whatever area they land in.

Commandos were hit with the nerf bat again and again with nothing being given back. This single change is all they need to make them worth their cost again. I don't want to spend 560 Manpower just to plant Demo Changes.

That and fixing Demo Sappers so that they no longer have their movement modifiers broken by Lieutenants while in enemy territory. Fixing those two bugs would be greatly appreciated.

While it's also appreciated to have Pioneers receive elite armour at Vet 3, this is only delaying the inevitable. At Vet 3, they will still charge through the lousy suppression skills of the British and torch them to ashes. The only thing that can actually make Piospam counter-able in a more cost effective sense is to decrease their suppression threshold. Maybe not quite as far as American Engineers but something that that makes charging a blob of Pioneers into HMG fire, unaided by smoke, a bad idea. They will of course still be extremely effective vs British infantry since all they need to do is stay away from upgunned Bren Carriers and MG Nests.

That being said, it's a great changelog. I'm just disappointed that the changes I mentioned are missing.

Last edited July 31, 2010 at 9:22 PM by ChocoboKnight88

I"ve played 5 games with a friend now, russia vs wermacht, and they were much tighter, much more back and forth.  I lost 3 of 5.  In 1.11, I was sweeping as russia every game.  T-90's are the only unit at the moment that seem to still be overpowered, in 2 respects.  They seem to kill expertly from maximum range, and they do horrible horrible things to a puma, far too quickly in my opinion. 

I can fathom it having odds on a puma, that's fine(even though russia has all kinds of anti-vehicle), but it makes such short work of it(like 10 seconds).  I think the odds should switch when a puma gets upgunned.  I didn't see this in action, but I don't think it could get 2 shots off before it was dead in the current state. I'm not sure how much vet on the puma changes this dynamic, as these were unvetted.

the tank hunter mines worry me a bit too...giving them a mine that is PE doctrinal.  I laid some down in the games I played, but I don't think anything hit them, so I'm not sure how destructive they are.  Is it the same yield as PE mines?

This is just opinioin of course(all of it is) but I think if these are full fledged AT-mines, then they are too powerful for these guys(and steal PE thunder).  Maybe it would be justified if they got it with the tank hunter upgrade...

Is it only me or do all of you have a "reverse BREN button" bug?
Tommy button works in houses but not on open ground.

I think that the PE need a small overall buff and the 40 extra hp to the AC seems good to me, but I will have to play with it myself to tell.

I think that the nerf to to Pioneers  and packs will make brits more enjoyable to play (not that I would ever do such a thing.)
But it might not be enough. I would like to see flamethrowers get a 0.8 damage modifere against soldier armour.
Maybe they should not get elite armour at all, but I will have to see how this play before I can tell. (remember that the high suprssion treshold will be lower if the don't have elite armour.

I think that bug fixes are more important than balance change right now, than people will have some time to see if they can find solution for balance problem themself.

Good overall job on the patch

Paciat wrote:
Is it only me or do all of you have a "reverse BREN button" bug?
Tommy button works in houses but not on open ground.

Confirmed! It's now a requirement to be garrisoned before Infantry Sections can use button. But hey, it seems the developers are moving fast to squash the bug of their latest release. lol.

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=4145.msg41794#new

ok my take on 1.20 and 1.21  -

Awesome work, just a few annoying things ...
- Sherman Jumbo bleh. How about making it a replacement
for the Pershing instead? (Reward Unit) with a cap of 2?
Shouldn't replace callioppe. I'd like to see Callioppe replaced
by Priest, though  (Sherman modification anyways and US)
and Reward Unit the Priest with the Sexon (proper unit)
: Sherman Jumbo is not necessary when the Pershing is
around. And vice versa.
- Sherman 105 : This unit is OP!!! It's a huge improvement
on the Crocodile. Can do everything the Crocodile could
do, and do it better. It's like replacing P4 with Panther for
same cost :p Plus, it's too cheap  Awesome unit, though.
Perhaps put a cap on it, too? Graphx rocks
Perhaps take away it's shovel? / Reward units are about
choice. When the choice is a no-brainer, something's wrong.
Equivalences, yknow?  - This unit isn't equivalent. It's a
big buff. It's better against infantry, buildings (bridges!)
And can even hurt tanks (not so well, but yea) - In every
way, it's better than crocodile.

- Medic Truck and ISU152's 'locked down' states are
hard to see. Can't you make 'em have a PE Marder3/P4G
'Locked down circle' for ease of use?
- Command Squad is next to impossible to vet :p
(Especially since you took away it's artillery) - Should get
xp from surrounding units (Like British officers). Maybe up
how many kills are needed, for balance. But def needed.

Bugs :
- Medic Truck does not heal Russian AT gun crews or
Russian Mortar crew.

Loupblanc wrote:


Bugs :
- Medic Truck does not heal Russian AT gun crews or
Russian Mortar crew.

These things i think aren't actually represented properly because the gun itself is the health that you see on the icon not necessarily the squad health.
I just fought a battle and had  the exact same problem, the medic truck don't help em.
I tried using the ingenery to fix them but they just stand there.which is sad because the Russians can't recrew.
This being the case perhaps just upping the health on the Russian AT gun crew?

In 1.1 used to heal both bars :P.

Loupblanc wrote:

- Command Squad is next to impossible to vet :p
(Especially since you took away it's artillery) - Should get
xp from surrounding units (Like British officers). Maybe up
how many kills are needed, for balance. But def needed.

Actually only the first lvl is hard to get cause you need 5 (I think) kills but then you unlock the arty and the kills just pile up so... the first lvl of vet is difficult to get but once you have it your commander is vet 3 in no time at all.

Also, I thought I'd share since I just looked it up - the global bonuses from Command Squad Vet are next to useless.

1.05x Damage
1.05x Damage
1.05x Damage
or
0.95x Received Damage
0.95x Received Damage
0.95x Received Damage

I guess the Command Squad is durable enough that they shouldn't be too impressive, but really, those are very low...

Okey, choose three times the same bonus, That's the stuff! :D

Ahhh bless....if you read the changelog more carefully, you will notice these bonuses are GLOBAL, meaning they affect ALL infantry. Insignificant? I think not...
These are in addition to their own vet bonuses units get  ;).
This is why a Command squad is such a significant unit in the soviet faction

Last edited August 3, 2010 at 7:32 PM by Zerstörer

Zerstörer wrote:
Ahhh bless....if you read the changelog more carefully, you will notice these bonuses are GLOBAL, meaning they affect ALL infantry. Insignificant? I think not...
These are in addition to their own vet bonuses units get  ;).
This is why a Command squad is such a significant unit in the soviet faction

Yes, I'm aware they affect all Infantry. 15% damage is not significant.

Command Squad abilities are important to the Soviets, but these bonuses are not. Its not going to let Strelky contend with Elite Armour Grens, even with their individual bonuses. You're going to need a Sniper, Mortar, or Tank for that regardless.

Strelky Vet is basically:
10% Accuracy
0.75x Received Accuracy while moving
32.25% Damage

Quote
Yes, I'm aware they affect all Infantry. 15% damage is not significant.

Command Squad abilities are important to the Soviets, but these bonuses are not. Its not going to let Strelky contend with Elite Armour Grens, even with their individual bonuses. You're going to need a Sniper, Mortar, or Tank for that regardless.

Strelky Vet is basically:
10% Accuracy
0.75x Received Accuracy while moving
32.25% Damage

how is a 15% bonus not significant !?! All of your infantry on the map are now either 15% tougher or do 15% more damage on top of there normal vet. If this was any higher I can guarantee that people would be screaming about it being "OP".

Quotehow is a 15% bonus not significant !?! All of your infantry on the map are now either 15% tougher or do 15% more damage on top of there normal vet.

This sounds nice but its not much when compared with the scaling available to other factions. Its not going to crack Elite Armour for instance.

I'm just concerned that I see a recurring pattern in the Soviets as I did with the British - their units are very strong for cost early on, but simply don't scale fast enough to keep pace with veteran Grens or PGs. I'm not talking about a scaling that lets them win handily like Rifles can, just enough to not be pushed completely onto the back foot after the 25 minute mark.

I wouldn't increase the existing bonuses, I'd tack on lower reload times to the Offensive Bonuses and add a very slight passive heal to Defensive (say, 1/3 of what Wehr gets per level).

I actually agree with Kolaris. The existing bonuses are nice but it would be good if accuracy or reload were affected as well for offensive. Maybe a speed boost for defensive as well.