[1.11] Sniper/Tank-hunter problems

Hey again.

Fist of all EF-team, you finally did it.
This mod becomes really well engineered now.

GOOD WORK!



But still there are at least a few serious problems which gotta get solved. I was playing with my cousin against 2 hard soviets, we had a very nice run. But after a few
minutes they spammed snipers & AT troops.

My cousin, a very experienced Wehrmacht player usually going for the blitzkrieg doc, than tried to beat that spam with a StuH. But the problem was:

The sniper teams did not wanted to die. Sometimes, even with a perfect hit they did not take ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.

usually it did work well with all the other kind of inf. but these vetted AT-guys were just another serious problem. Often, again, no any results even with a perfect hit.


Have a look at this ;)



Regards,

-V-

I think AI on EF still have bonus for their units. In 1.04, I was playing Werh with 2 allies on prorokhovka, over 3 soviet AI, and with a puma, I was unable to kill a damn sharshooter unit, like your cousin. I'm not a very decent player like him, but its not the problem anyway: I put my puma near to the snip team, and they dont wanted to die at all!

Then, I've tried to play as soviet over a Werh AI, and my sharshooters team met a puma, they have died within 5 seconds!!

Well ive noticed another thing. Doesnt matter if you play as soviet or vice versa you play against one. The Tank Hunters are seriously OP. For like 220 manpower they are overall killing kick-ass machines (propably cloned Chuck Norris`s). Ive played against hard Wehrmacht AI...that should have hp bonuses and etc. It doesnt mattered...i had like 6 or 7 squads of these uber-humans, upgraded with global upgrade "Men against Tanks" that enabled second guy in squad with that AT rifle and ive killed everything what i saw. No matter if it was infantry, vehicles, tanks or even base structures! HQ building has come down in matter of maybe 20 seconds...not to mention a Stug which basically wasnt even there!

Well this is right what my cousin said.
These guys are seriously OP.

Actually I disagree. I don't find tank hunters too strong at all. Any unit in a blob of 6-7 is bound to be powerful. I think they're perfectly fine as they are. That is, not being very powerful in straight up combat (compared to shreked grens for eg.) but having AT nades, ambush and mines to give them some more utility.

Last edited May 30, 2010 at 6:33 PM by GodlikeDennis

Not really. Because a blob of the same kind of infantry is normaly not good against everything.

But tankhunters are.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Actually I disagree. I don't find tank hunters too strong at all. Any unit in a blob of 6-7 is bound to be powerful. I think they're perfectly fine as they are. That is, not being very powerful in straight up combat (compared to shreked grens for eg.) but having AT nades, ambush and mines to give them some more utility.

Yeah ofcourse any blob should be powerful. But as Venoxxis said...not against everything as these guys are. Anyway look Rangers which are doctrinal call in and costs 600mp doesnt do so much damage against Stug that these uber-humans do. And another thing is that for like 1320 manpower which 6 squads of these Tank Hunters costs youll only have 2 squads of Rangers...only 2! So what im pointing at is that they are too cheap and too powerful, plus they arent a doctrinal unit so its very easy to have them en-masse. From my point of view there is two ways to balance them...either change their cost, to say like PE Tank Busters on 360mp or nerf their damage.

Sorry devs, it but 1.11 is way t... I cant say it. :'(

I make 1-2 groups of these and I win insantly.

3-5 Red banners.

2-3 Unpgrade tank hunters.

Or I make 1 big group with a x number of red banners, and about 5 tankies.

Rangers are 400 mp actually. They are only quite bad against the front armour of a tank but will demolish from the rear.

Tank hunters are not good against infantry at all. They are similar to an airborne blob in that, sometimes they get lucky and hit you with their weapons lots but this is a one-off. Honestly, if you can't beat any kind of blob you need more practice. There are loads of anti-blob tools at your disposal.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Tank hunters are not good against infantry at all.

No, simply and easy, nope.

These guys DO rock your infantry because they do massive damage with one shot.
Usually they dont hit infantry that often, but if you got a blob, they will smash your boys!

considering the AT rifle stats are virtually identical (apart from the damage/ ROF) to a bazooka...you're not likely to take more casualties than you would from a shrek/bazooka/piat/recoiless blob....in fact I don't think I've seen more than a single casualty to the AT rifles in the last week...

PTRD teams do kill infantry from time to time, however I never used more than 2-3 squads at a time so I didn't notice any unusual OP towards infantry. However if PTRD rifle hits a man it's instant kill (just like Schreck or Bazooka...).

My question is: would it be possible to make PTRD rifles same as Bazooka, MG42, Recoil.Rifle - in the meaning that it will drop from time to time when a squad member got killed? This way it should be less OP and also opponent would be able to take it and use it.

Last edited June 1, 2010 at 6:23 AM by wordsmith

Biggest problem is real-life PTRD - it's one person - anti-tank - rifle. What does it mean? I't AT gun, so if PTRD was designed to penetrate tough tank armor it doesn't suprise me that they deal so heavy dmg to buildings. Of course even heavy tanks must give up under heavy PTRD fire (10-12 rifles can do MIRACLES). But, what about killing enemy soldiers? It's rifle, operated by one soldier, so it isn't too hard to aim directly at enemy (bazooka/pzfaust/pzshreck don't guarantee direct hit into aimed point, rifles do). AT rounds that hit a man usually can rip off his arm/leg (but not tear him apart, let's be reasonable people -_-), cannot it?

So what we can do to balance it? Break realism. Lower dmg vs heavy tanks, remove dmg vs Tiger/KT/Jadgpanther, make it do dmg only with critical hit), lower accuracy vs infantry... and drastically reduce dmg vs building. But that would make them useless.

What else we can do? There's always hard cap - maybe we can try limiting them to 6 un-upgraded squads, and 4 after MvT upgrade?

Except that you don't have to do ALL those things. Weapons in this game have different modifiers against different things for a reason.

I see no reason to nerf what I regard as a well balanced unit. Props to the devs for creating a cheap, light AT support unit with good abilities that scale. They are simply NOT good against infantry and anyone who says otherwise needs to play with them more. They are no different to a blob of airborne. You seem to think that you should be able to counter his 1400 manpower blob with two squads of grens. If anything, their damage against pumas should be ever so slightly increased.

Stuh's suck tbh and rarely hit anything unless you use attack ground.

MP44's however shred the AT squads.  Here's a replay vs a pretty large amount of these squads, i use Pumas to deal with them.

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?s=&showtopic=622099&view=findpost&p=7295659

Also I wouldnt make balance considerations based on a compstomp.

Last edited June 1, 2010 at 3:18 PM by Budwise

MP-44 sherds everything called infantry  ;)
Thats not a argument because its besides the FG-42 the
strongest weapon ingame.

The problem is right what PoldekPL said. And dont try to ignore these facts guys.

A limit is a good idea. But in my opinion the should simply be more expensive, since every inf. which got anti tank weapons is pretty expensive. And these guys got their advantage vs inf as well, because they got a rifle. A rifle hits if fired well. there is no ground or wall it could hit. That does make them OP.

Last edited June 1, 2010 at 4:15 PM by Venoxxis

hard caps are a poor way to deal with any imbalance.

If you think spamming Tank Hunter squads is OP try it against me or Nosliw or a 2v2 against both of us.

Well playing tankhunters on my own i dont think that they are so powerfull anymore. It has to be the problem with the AI which makes them so much stronger and the weakass StuH ;)

but there is still the problem with the snipers.
And their art. strike is one hell of a powerhouse  ???  :o

PoldekPL wrote:
Biggest problem is real-life PTRD - it's one person - anti-tank - rifle. What does it mean? I't AT gun, so if PTRD was designed to penetrate tough tank armor it doesn't suprise me that they deal so heavy dmg to buildings. Of course even heavy tanks must give up under heavy PTRD fire (10-12 rifles can do MIRACLES). But, what about killing enemy soldiers? It's rifle, operated by one soldier, so it isn't too hard to aim directly at enemy (bazooka/pzfaust/pzshreck don't guarantee direct hit into aimed point, rifles do). AT rounds that hit a man usually can rip off his arm/leg (but not tear him apart, let's be reasonable people -_-), cannot it?

Since realism is so important, lets reduce the accuracy to like 10% while the unit is moving. Because I doubt that in real life you can hit anything with an anti material rifle at the same time as you're running. let's be reasonable about this shall we :(

AT rifle squads are not good vs infantry as such, but they are a have a bit too much health at the moment...and the AT rifle need a bit of an improvement vs Pumas...they seem to work as they should vs other vehicles

All shoulder fired AT have problems hitting Pumas once they get vet3.  Its built into the Puma vet.  Only Bazookas can hit em reliably but then again Rangers often shoot the ground in front of them lol.  Take this into account if you buff accuracy towards Pumas since Puma's are a natural counter to massive inf that most Russians will have.  I personally would just leave it be for now.  They cant retreat after all, their health should be somewhat decent or else a single Nebel shot is going to pin and kill them all.  With the tweaks to Tank Hunter mines being implemented (ask Dragon if you dont know) I think it will be fine.

Zerstörer wrote:
and the AT rifle need a bit of an improvement vs Pumas...they seem to work as they should vs other vehicles

Last edited June 1, 2010 at 7:57 PM by Budwise

Its not as much the accuracy vs the pumas as much its the damage against them. There is a modifier I forgot to remove which applies to the high strength bazooka but shouldn't on the low strength AT rifle.

The health adjustment will come with the addition of retreat  in the next patch.

Last edited June 1, 2010 at 8:19 PM by Zerstörer

tks for your replay budwise, i was just surprised by no allied us-russ AT gun behind ...
well the PTDR team is too easily spamable, cheap, stand-well inf damages and do really good fight and move ...

i think they should lower their fire rate while moving (and have to block to go usual rate) and have less health  ... (they may cloak and mine so they still are dangerous but need to be protected vs infantry)

Cranialwizard wrote:
I was in a 4 v 4 in Berlin, with 1 teamate who quit early. (So 3 CPUS) VS 2 of my friend on teamspeak, with 2 CPUS.

One of my friends went PE, and he was SPAMMING panthers like no end, and had a JagdPanther.

Tanks of mine couldn't even get CLOSE to him. Even IS-2s were obliterated.

So the thought popped in my head as his tanks approached me, close, close, close.

"TANK HUNTERS FTW?"

So, with the upgrade, I had about 8 squads of PRTD Tank Hunters.

Surprisingly, they took out a Half-Health Jagdpanther, THREE Panthers, a Hetzer, and a Bergetiger before dying.

Quite strange imo  ::)

Thats one of the true problems of these guys.

How is that strange?

You realise all of those tanks suck vs infantry...

Well, these guys shouldn't damage the best armoured tanks of the game. Thats what i mean.
They should damage almost everything in my opinion. But tanks like the tiger, kingtiger, panther or the jagdpanther shouldnt be damaged by rifles at all.

But hell yea, make them more powerfull against the puma.

I see your point but no time frame was specified. A jeep will kill a bergetiger given enough time. This is why anecdotes are a poor argument in discussions, they miss out alot of important details. If those tanks were well microed, which they probably weren't seeing as there was no anti-inf with them, they still would've beaten those 8! squads of AT infantry. PRTDs do very little damage to true tanks from the front.

EDIT: I also want to add, to someone who mentioned about moving acc before, that infantry AT weapons can't be fired on the move and the PRTD is no exception.

Last edited June 3, 2010 at 1:58 PM by GodlikeDennis

PoldekPL wrote:
Biggest problem is real-life PTRD - it's one person - anti-tank - rifle. What does it mean? I't AT gun, so if PTRD was designed to penetrate tough tank armor it doesn't suprise me that they deal so heavy dmg to buildings. Of course even heavy tanks must give up under heavy PTRD fire (10-12 rifles can do MIRACLES). But, what about killing enemy soldiers? It's rifle, operated by one soldier, so it isn't too hard to aim directly at enemy (bazooka/pzfaust/pzshreck don't guarantee direct hit into aimed point, rifles do). AT rounds that hit a man usually can rip off his arm/leg (but not tear him apart, let's be reasonable people -_-), cannot it?

So what we can do to balance it? Break realism. Lower dmg vs heavy tanks, remove dmg vs Tiger/KT/Jadgpanther, make it do dmg only with critical hit), lower accuracy vs infantry... and drastically reduce dmg vs building. But that would make them useless.

What else we can do? There's always hard cap - maybe we can try limiting them to 6 un-upgraded squads, and 4 after MvT upgrade?

What you could do is making the PRTD team a "stationary unit" like the MG42 and increase its range. It would need a short set up time and still frag off any armor + emplacements. At the same time it is still pretty mobile compared to AT guns.

It would make the whole thing more realisitc, cause I cant imagine anybody shooting a PRTD "from the hip"...

Just a suggestion.

The most powerfull rifle ingame is the grenadier k98 - 15dmg.
Why not modify some PTRD stats so it will do 20-30dmg to infantry but have more accuracy instead?
I would also like to see PTRD do less dmg vs vechicles/buildings but fire faster.

Paciat wrote:
The most powerfull rifle ingame is the grenadier k98 - 15dmg.
Why not modify some PTRD stats so it will do 20-30dmg to infantry but have more accuracy instead?
I would also like to see PTRD do less dmg vs vechicles/buildings but fire faster.

Sounds like a portable russian Bofors to me... and would completely underly the idea behind a PRTD to be a tank hunter gun.

I like Hans Blix' suggestion about the MG-like use of a PRTD.. xD

Perhaps instead of making PTDR a stationary unit, it could have a "lock down" ability to increase its accuracy.

PTRD is just the soviet At version of the bezooka/shrek/Recoiless/piat in the game and works in an identical way.

It has more range than the others but does little damage per shot and won't penetrate the front of tanks often. however, it does fire 3 shots for every 1 a shrek/bazooka shot. It also gets a considerable boost with the first strike ability when the unit is cloaked.

Its rather good and reliable vs light armour, but you need to flank real tanks. The squad itself is specialized AT and won't really damage infantry. Its a good but tactically different unit

The AT rifle is NOT a Barret sniper rifle. You could never really wield it well enough to hit infantry, and unlike shaped charges it didn't have an explosive/shrapnel effect.

i think we got the balance for it just right...well in 1.2 that is where it gets the damage right vs puma  ;)

Zerstörer wrote:
PTRD is just the soviet At version of the bezooka/shrek/Recoiless/piat in the game and works in an identical way.

It has more range than the others but does little damage per shot and won't penetrate the front of tanks often. however, it does fire 3 shots for every 1 a shrek/bazooka shot. It also gets a considerable boost with the first strike ability when the unit is cloaked.

Its rather good and reliable vs light armour, but you need to flank real tanks. The squad itself is specialized AT and won't really damage infantry. Its a good but tactically different unit

The AT rifle is NOT a Barret sniper rifle. You could never really wield it well enough to hit infantry, and unlike shaped charges it didn't have an explosive/shrapnel effect.

i think we got the balance for it just right...well in 1.2 that is where it gets the damage right vs puma  ;)

If some part of the message is for my post above I was talking about accuracy versus vehicles tanks ::)... I agree with the fact that against infantry doesn't works. I was talking about snipe vehicles, but now I remember that they already got ambush :-X.

So your makeing them even weaking then they are now?

No, they're fixing the damage against pumas by taking away a negative modifier that shouldn't be there. So it is in fact getting a slight buff. Everything else seems to be staying the same, which is good because it is balanced.

Since tank hunters have been brought up in this thread, me and my friend have been playing alot of soviet vs PE, and he has discovered that he can just spam the hell out of these guys and dominate the field.

They are cheap, come earlier than any other at I can think of , and effectively make my decision to build light vehicles a real bad one.  I actually think they come too early, but that's minor compared to my real complaint.

My complaint is that in a mass of 4 or 5 squads, they start to be lethal against everything.  Those rifles seem to act like g43's that also happen to shoot through p4 armor.  My very expensive to replace units drop off like flies in a slugout.  There is a threshold where I get my tier 3 infantry and can start running them over, but by then, he has other counters that make attempting to finish off his cheap squads, a liability.

It may not be that they do alot of damage individually, but my opponent can get so many squads cheaply.  combined, they really do kill infantry quickly, and as is stated in this thread, that is not their role. I would suggest a price increase (and for personal tastes a slightly longer tech time) so that spamming these units is not so ideal.

Joshua9 wrote:
Since tank hunters have been brought up in this thread, me and my friend have been playing alot of soviet vs PE, and he has discovered that he can just spam the hell out of these guys and dominate the field.

They are cheap, come earlier than any other at I can think of , and effectively make my decision to build light vehicles a real bad one.  I actually think they come too early, but that's minor compared to my real complaint.

My complaint is that in a mass of 4 or 5 squads, they start to be lethal against everything.  Those rifles seem to act like g43's that also happen to shoot through p4 armor.  My very expensive to replace units drop off like flies in a slugout.  There is a threshold where I get my tier 3 infantry and can start running them over, but by then, he has other counters that make attempting to finish off his cheap squads, a liability.

It may not be that they do alot of damage individually, but my opponent can get so many squads cheaply.  combined, they really do kill infantry quickly, and as is stated in this thread, that is not their role. I would suggest a price increase (and for personal tastes a slightly longer tech time) so that spamming these units is not so ideal.

+1. I'm one of those AT spammers.

Werwolf wrote:

Joshua9 wrote:
Since tank hunters have been brought up in this thread, me and my friend have been playing alot of soviet vs PE, and he has discovered that he can just spam the hell out of these guys and dominate the field.

They are cheap, come earlier than any other at I can think of , and effectively make my decision to build light vehicles a real bad one.  I actually think they come too early, but that's minor compared to my real complaint.

My complaint is that in a mass of 4 or 5 squads, they start to be lethal against everything.  Those rifles seem to act like g43's that also happen to shoot through p4 armor.  My very expensive to replace units drop off like flies in a slugout.  There is a threshold where I get my tier 3 infantry and can start running them over, but by then, he has other counters that make attempting to finish off his cheap squads, a liability.

It may not be that they do alot of damage individually, but my opponent can get so many squads cheaply.  combined, they really do kill infantry quickly, and as is stated in this thread, that is not their role. I would suggest a price increase (and for personal tastes a slightly longer tech time) so that spamming these units is not so ideal.

+1. I'm one of those AT spammers.

+2. These guys arent balanced at all. Thankfully other guys see that as well - and dont try to be blind.  :)

sorry but i have to say that again, with every game we play the mod it is getting more and more clear that they are a lil to powerfull.
Not talking about their general performance, but about thier prince and the kind of veterancy they get with the upgrade.

I am only an average to slightly above average player at best and I know unless you are an expert the opinion probably means very little, but I completely agree that tank hunters are way too powerful way too early.  I did a test where I spammed a group of 4 of them and I was able to clear the germans and PE (in separate games) out in no time.  They do kill infantry amazingly well so whoever says they don't must be playing another game than I am. When they get vetted they are practically unstoppable when grouped.  I don't mind there strength against tanks and light armor but I feel they should be much much weaker versus infantry. I hope they will consider fixing it in one of the patches.  Even vetted Germans and PE get their ass handed to them unless they are level 3 (occasionally level 2) with a g43 gun then they are able to start winning, but the cost to get infantry to vet 3 with g43 guns is wayyyyy more expensive and time consuming than vet 3 tank hunter. Just my thoughts.

Its really good that some of you guys do see those Tank Hunters OP...as in some instances they are...e.g.: they are too cheap, too easy to mass produce and they do ridiculous damage to heavy armor. Though it doesnt matter because it seems to me that devs are listening to those "reborn" guys only and as long they will not comment negatively on their stats, they will not be changed...so this topic is just a waste of time...

The PTRD squads are fine as they are now, the AT rifle is accurate like the recoiless rifle ans it is the only effective early game counter of soviets towards early game german armor like stugs and pumas and the HT's as well

But the damage of these guys should be improved a bit vs infantry!!

AbhMkh wrote:
The PTRD squads are fine as they are now, the AT rifle is accurate like the recoiless rifle ans it is the only effective early game counter of soviets towards early game german armor like stugs and pumas and the HT's as well

But the damage of these guys should be improved a bit vs infantry!!

I guess you didnt test them yet.
Also your arguments got outclasses sites ago.



-V-

Whatever be the argument PTRD squads are "Fine!!"

There's no need to change any stat except increasing the dmage vs infantry cuz ive seen them going down to mp44 pg's

The stats of the PTRD are "Fine" because they can't retreat and don't earn vet. Versus infantry they aren't that great, and if you make a wrong move, до свидания...

I'm pretty sure that on 1.20 PTRD stats will be very different, and won't be OP anymore :P. I'm looking forward to see how the balance is going to be done.

AbhMkh wrote:
Whatever be the argument PTRD squads are "Fine!!"

There's no need to change any stat except increasing the dmage vs infantry cuz ive seen them going down to mp44 pg's

Is this post serious? I thought I already asked you to please refrain from making balance posts.

So your light AT squad got beaten by a strong, dedicated AI squad that costs more and you're complaining? The PRTD is fine right now and I don't understand why this thread's still going on.

blackbishop wrote:
...
I'm pretty sure that on 1.20 PTRD stats will be very different, and won't be OP anymore :P. I'm looking forward to see how the balance is going to be done.

They won't be any different. The only change will be removing a negative modifier against the puma that was supposed to be removed when they based the weapon off the high strength bazooka. It doesn't belong on the low strength PRTD so they will counter pumas a little more effectively now. That is the only change I believe.

@GodlikeDennis
Thanks for the information :P, I just thought that perhaps they'll make PTRD weaker because they now can earn vet.

You see Black bishop im not complaining about the PTDR squad others are and i forgot to mention how many squads i had , i had 3 PTDR squads(upgraded) and they got beaten by a mp44 pg squad!!!

thts why there is a need to increase the damage vs infantry i dont  see why an investment of 660 mp + 30 f + 75 mun be beaten by an investment of 400 mp!!

Cause AT squad...does what it says on the tin 'AT'. its a specialist squad. Specialist squads mean that they're rubbish at anything other than their speciality.

Just because something costs more doesn't mean it will or should win against something that costs less.

This is fundamental balance you need to learn and understand. hence why you use a mix of units and not spam specialist ones if you want to get somewhere. Soviet units are not generalists like US Riflemen/Rangers

Mp44s and other anti infantry rip them up like they should do. Its like an AT gun going down to a pio squad...cause that's how it should be. On the other hand, these guys ensure light vehicles don't mess up your infantry.

in fact in the next patch the AT squads have been nerfed accordingly to avoid people spaming them like regular infantry

Last edited July 10, 2010 at 10:59 AM by Zerstörer

Nooooooooooooooooo dont nerf the beloved PTRD's

There is nothing wrong with them,pleaseeeeeeeee!!!

Zerstörer wrote:
Cause AT squad...does what it says on the tin 'AT'. its a specialist squad. Specialist squads mean that they're rubbish at anything other than their speciality.

Just because something costs more doesn't mean it will or should win against something that costs less.

This is fundamental balance you need to learn and understand. hence why you use a mix of units and not spam specialist ones if you want to get somewhere. Soviet units are not generalists like US Riflemen/Rangers

Mp44s and other anti infantry rip them up like they should do. Its like an AT gun going down to a pio squad...cause that's how it should be. On the other hand, these guys ensure light vehicles don't mess up your infantry.

in fact in the next patch the AT squads have been nerfed accordingly to avoid people spaming them like regular infantry

Finaly! Thats good to hear, though i hope they will not be nerfed through hard cap, but instead with a cost upgrade...i dont think that hard caping them will be a solution.