Ostheer Air superiority = Stronger Luftwaffe presence

QuoteThe Soviet war effort in the first phase of the Eastern front war was severely hampered by a shortage of modern aircraft. The Soviet fighter force was equipped with large numbers of obsolete aircraft, such as the I-15 biplane and the I-16. In 1941, the MiG-3, LaGG-3 and Yak-1 were just starting to roll off the production lines, but were far inferior in all-round performance to the Messerschmitt Bf 109 or later, the Fw 190, when it entered operations in September 1941. Few aircraft had radios and those that were available were unencrypted and did not work reliably. The poor performance of VVS (Voenno-Vozdushnye Sily, Soviet Air Force) during the Winter War with Finland had increased the Luftwaffe's confidence that the Soviets could be mastered. The standard of flight training had been accelerated in preparation for a German attack that was expected to come in 1942 or later. But Soviet pilot training was extremely poor. Order No 0362 of the People's Commissar of Defense, dated 22 December 1940, ordered flight training to be accelerated and shortened. Incredibly, while the Soviets had 201 MiG-3s and 37 MiG-1s combat ready on 22 June 1941, only four pilots had been trained to handle these machines.

As quoted from wiki you can see that they need to have a firm representation for the Ostheer as they were a strong element to Barbarossa.

Why are you talking about 1941-1942?
Not all russian pilotes died in 1941!
There where some (a lot) veterans of the spanish civil war and Finnish winter war. (it was a winter so the airforce performence was poor but many pilotes gained experience there) Even few (12) french pilotes were fighting using Soviet planes.

The Kursk battle (1943) is where the soviets started to gain real air superiority (but they were shooting down german many transport planes in the late stages of Stalingrad battle too) so in 1944 all eastern skies were Soviet.

In 1944 where this game is playing, the Russian air superiority was sometimes 40:1.

Well; the EF Mod doesnt played just around 1944  ;)
In theory the red army represent some typical war symbols of the red army during the hole war ( from 1941 till 1945 ).

So in my opinion the symbolic value is important
and the Luftwaffe is a symbol so why not think
about representing this arm of the german Wehrmacht?

And the Luftwaffe flew till the end of the war against the red army. Russians planes ( number is not important ) cant be everywhere and so german Luftwaffe helped the groundforces when it was possible.

Lord wrote:
So in my opinion the symbolic value is important
and the Luftwaffe is a symbol so why not think
about representing this arm of the german Wehrmacht?

This is soo true. It would be just hard to have a luftwaffe Doctrine which differs from the PE lufwaffe support doctrine.

Thats the problem after all.. any suggestions for units or usefull unique air attacks or air support which fits into the Ostheer? would be interesting..

A integration in form of a bulding is another unique suggestion by the way..

Last edited April 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM by Venoxxis

Ostheer could have some abilities of "Luftwaffe" kind but not whole doctrine, it would be too much. After all CoH is ground war strategy not air.

Some Ju87 would be nice - as bomb strike or 37mm AT strike of "G" version. Also some siren wail (more suppress) could be cool as it certainly would represent the first years of blitzkrieg.

Gliders has British, and air supply US. Paratroopers, or "Fallschirms" should not be included IMO. It is unique ability of US and Luftwaffe on eastern front doesn't used mass airborne assaults.

Ok, Wordsmith, you do know that Air Supply was happening in the Kettle during the Stalingrad Campaign. They should at least get that.

About gliders- Everyone used gliders. Just cause one group has them doesn't mean that others can't have it. And i never said the Ost glider would act like a Brit Glider. It just brings them in. End of story. Its not a base or anything.

And the Falls........ they are Luftwaffe Infantry, im sure that this particular group served in the East. As a matter of fact they were very important in many Attacks on Soviet strongholds and cities.

Here's another thing, if the only thing that we got from Luftwaffe was birds in the sky that wouldn't really be CoH. I mean i'm all for having planes flying everywhere (being an "Axis and Allies" player for many years), but you have to think about the game itself. We can't exactly control the planes.

If we make 1 ability involve planes (strafing infantry would be pretty good to suppress the Soviet Hordes) then yeah but the others have to go along and use something else. So Wordsmith you have any ideas to fill the other two. Oh and i like that Siren Wailing ability it sounds pretty cool. I forgot what it was called, something of Jericho.

Neosdark, the Air Supply operation in the Stalingrad Kessel was pretty much useless, maybe even being the deciding factor that doomed the VIth Army.

Jericho´s Siren? A reference to the fall of Jericho, I suppose.



I would suggest, for starters, an anti-air measure like fighters shooting down enemy bombers like the IL-2 or the P-47. Also, the Siren Wail... what I would do about that is make it suppress enemy infantry within its radius immediately (red state, not yellow) and drop two bombs the equivalent fo two mortar rounds. This ability would not be about destroying the enemy as much as slowing it down in an emergency.

I know that the supply was useless. But it exsisted. It wasn't doom for the army. It was already doomed. I just wanted to see if anyone can think of something useful we can drop them.

As for the Jericho thing i wouldn't have the slightest idea of who that is but thanks for the name.

Now on to the real fun. If we have an interceptor only Luft ability then we have 1 out of 3 chance that you can acttually use it against the Allied armies. But thats not the main problem. If these guys are the only ones with an interception ability thats the end for half of  the Airborne and Commando trees right there. Its just not too fair. With one ability you have just disabled an entire two armies doctrine and strategies.

Just as a note the Sturmovik and P51 Mustang aren't bombers. They are Ground Attack Aircraft there is a large difference.

neosdark wrote:
I know that the supply was useless. But it exsisted. It wasn't doom for the army. It was already doomed.

The VI Army was ordered to hold its position because Goering assured Hitler the Luftwaffe could supply the whole Army with all the supplies it needed.

(Despite a heroic effort, the amount of supplies the VI Army received fell laughably short of the projected figures, nevermind the ACTUALLY NEEDED figures.)

QuoteAs for the Jericho thing i wouldn't have the slightest idea of who that is but thanks for the name.

Jericho was the name of a heavily fortified city in the Old Testament of the Bible. The Israelites brought it down by blaring at it with trumpets simultaneously on a given day. Because of the JU-87´s destructive power and its distinctive siren, it received the same nickname.

QuoteNow on to the real fun. If we have an interceptor only Luft ability then we have 1 out of 3 chance that you can acttually use it against the Allied armies. But thats not the main problem. If these guys are the only ones with an interception ability thats the end for half of  the Airborne and Commando trees right there. Its just not too fair. With one ability you have just disabled an entire two armies doctrine and strategies.

Then don´t make it instantaneous. Make it so the fighters go after the bombers and try to kill them.

QuoteJust as a note the Sturmovik and P51 Mustang aren't bombers. They are Ground Attack Aircraft there is a large difference.

I didn´t, and don´t, really care about how we use the term bomber in this context. Eastern Front is not a mod for a flight simulator, it makes little difference what terms you use regarding aircraft nomenclature.

(And the P51 isn´t even a Ground Attack Aircraft. At best, it is a fighter-bomber.)

(And I´m not even sure that plane is a P51 to start with, I think it is a P47.)

Saavedra wrote:

The VI Army was ordered to hold its position because Goering assured Hitler the Luftwaffe could supply the whole Army with all the supplies it needed.

(Despite a heroic effort, the amount of supplies the VI Army received fell laughably short of the projected figures, nevermind the ACTUALLY NEEDED figures.)

Ok ,but it was still doomed, not the point of the topic so lets get of it.

QuoteJericho was the name of a heavily fortified city in the Old Testament of the Bible. The Israelites brought it down by blaring at it with trumpets simultaneously on a given day. Because of the JU-87´s destructive power and its distinctive siren, it received the same nickname.

Ok cool. See this is what happens when you are the son of Soviet Jews. We don't actually care enough about the heritage to read the book as a religious thing. Most of us at least.

QuoteThen don´t make it instantaneous. Make it so the fighters go after the bombers and try to kill them.

Huh, i don't get what you mean. ??? . Are you saying that you want the planes to just fly around the map and when a plane or glider comes it will try to shoot it down? In that case you will need to have a fuel penalty for as long as they are up there in the air. But that doesn't solve the problem of it practicly shattering the Doctrines. Any sane player will have a few AA guns or tanks on the ground thus you will be having an attack from ground and an Interceptor behind them. No one can dodge both my friend.

neosdark wrote:

Saavedra wrote:

The VI Army was ordered to hold its position because Goering assured Hitler the Luftwaffe could supply the whole Army with all the supplies it needed.

(Despite a heroic effort, the amount of supplies the VI Army received fell laughably short of the projected figures, nevermind the ACTUALLY NEEDED figures.)

Ok ,but it was still doomed, not the point of the topic so lets get of it.

Actually, if I remember correctly from Antony Beevor´s "Stalingrad", they still had a chance to execute a breakout maneuver. It would have required pulling out the tanks from the city fighting, but it might have worked better than freezing to death.

Quote

QuoteThen don´t make it instantaneous. Make it so the fighters go after the bombers and try to kill them.

Huh, i don't get what you mean. ??? . Are you saying that you want the planes to just fly around the map and when a plane or glider comes it will try to shoot it down? In that case you will need to have a fuel penalty for as long as they are up there in the air.

No reason for that. When you are attacked by airplanes, they show up on the map. Activate the ability and fighters appear to shoot them down. That´s it.

QuoteBut that doesn't solve the problem of it practicly shattering the Doctrines. Any sane player will have a few AA guns or tanks on the ground thus you will be having an attack from ground and an Interceptor behind them. No one can dodge both my friend.

You are assuming the best case scenario, which is that people make balanced armies. This seems to not always be the case, with people relying on spam to win. Airborne, for example, can rely on Airborne spam and strafes/bombings. Airborne don´t need AA guns because the one air attack Axis players have, the Henschel, does not kill infantry. With Luftwaffe fighters, you could at least rob the Airborne player of his air attacks.

Also, Commando Gliders give you nowhere near enough time to shoot them down. Your best bet relies on AT weaponry near the landing zone.

An anti-aircraft ability is nowhere near as game-breaking as you think.

the blitzkrieg meant ju-87 + panzer ...

ju-87 = stunt and mortar hits (or torpedoes maybe) or a center bomb like the little-kamikaze wherm thing

What if Ostheer Luftwaffe doctrine had a plain  Bombing run, not the run like the US , but a "Carpet" bombing of a large area, you may say OP but if you consider the cost, and the FF posibilities, it may work.

vietlord wrote:
the blitzkrieg meant ju-87 + panzer ...

that's the way the blitzkrieg doctrine should be.
my idea about the stuka:
multiple planes (like il-2/henschel), with high supression (and nice sound  ;D)
weapons: mg and a single bomb

Well...Blitzkrieg is a bit more then just "Ju 87" and Panzers ::)
The structure of german Panzerdivisionen, the technical equipment of planes, tanks and command posts, the training of the officers and the soldiers...
So when u use the term Blitzkrieg dont just think about "Ju 87" and Panzers ( small advice: e.g. the Ju 88 was a "Sturzkampfflugzeug" ( point attack plane ) too ;) ).

Bringing german fighter-bombers into COH would be wierd. US and UK are known for using (spamming) them, germans lost the fight for air superiority before fighter-bombers became an efective weapon (ASM). Thats why Me-109 and FW-190 are a bad idea.

I would like too see and hear a Ju-87 not only becouse it was efective but also becouse it was a propaganda weapon.

But a recon plane for Ostheer too in an arti/siege doctrine would be nice too.

Akalonor wrote:
What if Ostheer Luftwaffe doctrine had a plain  Bombing run, not the run like the US , but a "Carpet" bombing of a large area, you may say OP but if you consider the cost, and the FF posibilities, it may work.

Over a large area, do you mean much like Gods of War in the Russian propaganda doctrine?

No my friend a carpet bombing run is when you bomb the Entire Length of what you are flying over. Bassiclly the moment the plane enters the field it drops bombs until it has left it.

you could make it expensive and have a warning timer .

That´s a horrible idea. Horrible, horrible idea. The last thing CoH needs is a doomsday weapon like that (then again, we do have the V1...).

Paciat wrote:
Why are you talking about 1941-1942?
Not all russian pilotes died in 1941!
There where some (a lot) veterans of the spanish civil war and Finnish winter war. (it was a winter so the airforce performence was poor but many pilotes gained experience there) Even few (12) french pilotes were fighting using Soviet planes.

The Kursk battle (1943) is where the soviets started to gain real air superiority (but they were shooting down german many transport planes in the late stages of Stalingrad battle too) so in 1944 all eastern skies were Soviet.

Where did I ever say that all pilots died in 1941?  ::)

Also, its just a fact that Ostheer did have air superiority for over half of the time on the eastern front and it was only after the turning of the tide aka Stalingrad that the Russians would gain the momentum.

Saavedra wrote:
That´s a horrible idea. Horrible, horrible idea. The last thing CoH needs is a doomsday weapon like that (then again, we do have the V1...).

Having some strong air elements into the Ostheer will not be a "doomsday weapon" far from it when properly done.

If this means ME262's then I'm onboard.

Versedhorison wrote:
If this means ME262's then I'm onboard.

what would the role of  the me 262 be?

The entire point of having a Bombing run  is that it IS a doomsday weapon, limited use(Maybe 1 time every 30 mins) FF increased damage? better now hahWe see NO bombing runs in this game, yet WWII waswell known for bombing runs, entire cities were plowed, yet there is NO representation of this.

kingtiger wrote:

Versedhorison wrote:
If this means ME262's then I'm onboard.

what would the role of  the me 262 be?

I had explained it in a couple of thread though basically I see it has activating for a 30 or 60 second time and shoots down any enemy aircraft that are called in. Although it would have a long cool down to represent the wanning luftwaffe air superiority late in the war and the rarity of this jet.

So tl;dr its a counter against airborne and commando doctrine and the soviet air strike ability.

Versedhorison wrote:
I had explained it in a couple of thread though basically I see it has activating for a 30 or 60 second time and shoots down any enemy aircraft that are called in. Although it would have a long cool down to represent the wanning luftwaffe air superiority late in the war and the rarity of this jet.

So tl;dr its a counter against airborne and commando doctrine and the soviet air strike ability.

we have discussed that before. there is no sense in creating an ability that can only be used vs. 3 of 9 allied doctrines (commando, airborne, russian il-2). if your opponent chooses any other doctrine the me262 ability would be completely useless.

perhaps but maybe that kind of ability would be something like 2CP or something.

Any doctrine had an ability which can just be used against one other doctrine and we dont need to discuss this again.
When Ostheer get Luftwaffen-support then this abilities will be useful all the time and not just against 3 of 9 enemys doctrines.

I suppose that makes sense Its just Id really like to see this vehicle in the mod.

I'm not very fan of having another Luftwaffe doctrine in CoH despite the fact that I love aircrafts and everything related to it (I fly IL2 simulator often f.e.), I just think that it doesn't fit in Ostheer.... but if there should be Luftwaffe it could look for example like this ;) :


Use the close cooperation with Luftwaffe on Eastern front. Fighters protect the air space over our troops while bombers seed fear into enemy.  Air transports bring tons of supplies in while could evacuate our brave wounded soldiers on a way back. For ground protection reliable Flakpanzer Gepard could be call-in.



Left side: Air/Ground command coordination

Me109 cover (1CP) - radio our fighters to protect air over us for while
- player active ability (100 Ammo), one swarm of Me109G-6 will cover us for a period of 2min., armed with powerful Rheinmetall-Borsig Mk108 30mm cannon destroys any plane trying to infiltrate our airspace
- will add ability to see on minimap and on radar the enemy vehicle units within a small radius of friendly units but in the fog of war - similar to Tank Awareness of PE-Tank busters doctr., this will apply only when Bf109s are deployed otherwise it will be not active

Ju87D strike (2CP) - radio our bombers to make holes in enemy lines
- player active ability (175 Ammo), Stuka bomber will dive drop 1xSC500 bomb on designed area, siren wail will also increase suppression in larger area around impact
- SC500 has similar effect as explosion of 2xGoliath, could be used to destroy single building or bridge

Artillery spotter (3CP) - coordinate our heavy arty guns with air recon spotter to have more precise barrage
- player active ability (300 Ammo), deadly 17cm K18 arty barrage will scorche designed area with good precision


Right side: Luftwaffe support

Medical evacuation (2CP) - Luftwaffe will help us move our wounded soldiers back to home
- building permit, pioneers can build medical tent (200 MP) which then gathers wounded men on battlefield and when enough men is gathered they are transported home and player receives 250 MP

Flakpanzer 38(t) (2CP) - outstanding AAA gun able to shoot infantry hordes too
- unit call-in 380MP cost

Arrange air supply chain (4CP) - Luftwaffe pilots will help us move supplies quickly to battlefield
- passive ability, +25 Ammo/min., +10Fuel/min.

Last edited April 9, 2010 at 2:26 PM by wordsmith

QuoteMe109 cover (1CP) - radio our fighters to protect air over us for while
- player active ability (100 Ammo), one swarm of Me109G-6 will cover us for a period of 2min., armed with powerful Rheinmetall-Borsig Mk108 30mm cannon destroys any plane trying to infiltrate our airspace

Thought we had already discuss such a doctrine ability ???
One possible powerful doctrine slot for a ability which could be use just against US Airborn Doc, UK Commando Doc and SU Breakthrough - 3 of 9 possible enemy's doctrines and that for a price of 100 munition? That isnt a good trade...

Such an idea is perhaps a possibility for an "HQ research" so that u can research it when u had such an enemy on the map but this Me 109 air cover is no doctrine ability.

Last edited April 9, 2010 at 2:12 PM by Lord Rommel

Lord wrote:
Thought we had already discuss such a doctrine ability ???
One possible powerful doctrine slot for a ability which could be use just against US Airborn Doc, UK Commando Doc and SU Breakthrough - 3 of 9 possible enemy's doctrines and that for a price of 100 munition? That isnt a good trade...

Sorry I forgot to add that this ability will add ability to see on minimap and on radar the enemy vehicle units within a small radius of friendly units but in the fog of war - similar to Tank Awareness of PE-Tank busters doctr. This will apply only when Bf109s are deployed otherwise it will be not active. I will include it to text. :) I was writing it yesterday night so it's possible I made a mistake.

wordsmith wrote:
Sorry I forgot to add that this ability will add ability to see on minimap and on radar the enemy vehicle units within a small radius of friendly units but in the fog of war - similar to Tank Awareness of PE-Tank busters doctr. This will apply only when Bf109s are deployed otherwise it will be not active. I will include it to text. :) I was writing it yesterday night so it's possible I made a mistake.

...for 100 munitions?! well, i wouldn't use 100 munitions on that...

kingtiger wrote:
...for 100 munitions?! well, i wouldn't use 100 munitions on that...

Giving it less Ammo cost would render it OP... but what if this ability will uncover all vehicles on whole map for that period, not just close to my troops but to be able see all enemy vehicles (tanks, AT guns) on minimap and radar on whole map? For 2 minutes.

If the aircraft is armed with 30mm cannons, that´s enough to use it against other targets when there are no enemy airplanes around. It could attack light vehicles and infantry.

wordsmith wrote:
[...]but what if this ability will uncover all vehicles on whole map for that period, not just close to my troops but to be able see all enemy vehicles (tanks, AT guns) on minimap and radar on whole map? For 2 minutes.

well, that sounds OP too, it's a 1 CP ability that can be chosen at the beginning. maybe it could work as a late game ability on the second/third doctrine spot. but i still would be too strong vs. airborne/etc. if it active for 2 mins.

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Saavedra wrote:
If the aircraft is armed with 30mm cannons, that´s enough to use it against other targets when there are no enemy airplanes around. It could attack light vehicles and infantry.

vs. both planes AND ground targets? and what would be the range? planes would be attacked on the whole map - but other units? i'm not sure if giving it 2 ranges would be possible...

Last edited April 11, 2010 at 8:43 AM by kingtiger

Saavedra wrote:
If the aircraft is armed with 30mm cannons, that´s enough to use it against other targets when there are no enemy airplanes around. It could attack light vehicles and infantry.

It has only 1 cannon, with about 65 rounds and it is meant vs air targets, especially vs heavilly armored or big ones like IL2 or P47 - just few rounds will turn those into fireball. Of course it could be used vs ground but in this ability I think it would be too much - like IL2 strike.

kingtiger wrote:
well, that sounds OP too, it's a 1 CP ability that can be chosen at the beginning. maybe it could work as a late game ability on the second/third doctrine spot. but i still would be too strong vs. airborne/etc. if it active for 2 mins.

What about if ability will cost 2CP and 150 Ammo? I think 2min is minimum for such ability, because lower time it will render it useless. Imagine you prepare strike and you want to be sure that no AT gun will drop behind or no IL2 will decimate you. So you call for air support and for a while you will be safe from those. Plus you will see for that while where defensive guns are or enemy armors.

Making it like 30sec or similar it would be useless in those terms. And seeing vehicles ability is must in this case because it would then only vs specific doctrines.

You see, as I explained before, I don't think other Luftwaffe doctrine should be present. I just thought about it and come with some ideas, just for fun. I like imaging things that's all :)

The Luftwaffe was a lot more prominent on the Eastern front than on the western, especially after the Battle of Britain, and in particular bombers. I would like to see an He-111 bombing run. These were very common on the eastern front, VERY COMMON. The strike should cost a lot (800-1200 ammunition) and the reload time lengthy (5 minutes) possibly even a one time use, but have the strike more crippling than a V1. Total desolation on whatever they hit. But if a member is shot down, don't have the same crash as other aircraft where the smash and that's it. Take the coding of the Waco glider and have the destroyed 111 crash and slide across the ground, crushing everything in it's path. Once it halts, it should become permanent cover because of its size, become an advantage to whoever shoots it down.

I'm seeing 3 He-111's in a triangle formation dropping 8-10 bombs over the intended target bringing even an HQ to near or total destruction (hence the reason I'm thinking one time use). I really think this could be a neat addition, medium bombers played a large role in air support. Like many call-ins, the target must be visible with the fog of war lifted.

I hate to use this as an example, but in Enemy at the Gates we see a downed He-111 with others flying over. Face it, everyone of you guys would love to place your sniper squad near a freshly downed He-111 as cover.

I'd love to see a bombing run(assuming you mean a classic free fall run, not an angled strike)but its impossible to get 1000 mu in a game (So I've heard)  and 800 may be aswell, lower it to about 350-400 and It'll get my vote.

About the ME109G6, I think it should cost two points to kick it off but only provide vehicle sight on the mini&tac maps for say 1 min and cost 80mu

Akalonor wrote:
I'd love to see a bombing run(assuming you mean a classic free fall run, not an angled strike)but its impossible to get 1000 mu in a game (So I've heard)  and 800 may be aswell, lower it to about 350-400 and It'll get my vote.

About the ME109G6, I think it should cost two points to kick it off but only provide vehicle sight on the mini&tac maps for say 1 min and cost 80mu

I like that, I just figured a ton of resources would be needed. I have, however, hit above 1000mu multiple times in some of my longer games. I usually play nice long games with my friends due to the fact I hate rushing with every fiber of my being (I rarely play online for that very reason). I believe it shows a different kind of strategic skill when you can break a late game stalemate, even though rushing is another skill that I hate. The bombers are one of those "late game stalemate breakers" that even if it were a 1 time call-in, could turn the tide of the game against any faction (all depending on how stupid the opponent is).

If you want to make an ability so powerful that it costs more than 200 munitions, it´s not the cost that needs to be addressed, BUT THE ABILITY. Nothing should be powerful enough to cost THAT MUCH.

800 munitions is retarded, no matter how powerful the ability is.

I think Hans Ulrich Rudel's tank hunter squad must be implemented, similar to the PE doctrinal ability. It's a special squad for counter the T34 spam.
According to the wikipedia:
"Tungsten carbide is often used in armor-piercing ammunition, especially where depleted uranium is not available or is politically unacceptable. The first use of W2C projectiles occurred in German Luftwaffe  tank-hunter squadrons, which used 37 mm autocannon  equipped Junkers Ju 87G dive bomber aircraft to destroy Soviet  T-34 tanks in World War II. Owing to the limited German reserves of tungsten, W2C material was reserved for making machine tools and small numbers of projectiles for the most elite combat pilots, like Hans-Ulrich Rudel. It is an effective penetrator due to its high hardness value combined with a very high density.

Tungsten carbide ammunition can be of the sabot type (a large arrow surrounded by a discarding push cylinder) or a subcaliber ammunition, where copper or other relatively soft material is used to encase the hard penetrating core, the two parts being separated only on impact. The latter is more common in small-caliber arms, while sabots are usually reserved for artillery use."
But that's just an idea for the Luftwaffe support.
Cheers.

Saavedra wrote:
If you want to make an ability so powerful that it costs more than 200 munitions, it´s not the cost that needs to be addressed, BUT THE ABILITY. Nothing should be powerful enough to cost THAT MUCH.

+1

Any ability should cost 250-300 Ammo max. otherwise is unuseable.

About JU87G - could be nice but it would be same as PE Hs129B-3 ability and besides I don't think devs gonna make models of planes, even IL2 run is using Hawker Typhoon model with USSR markings.

You have to wait along time just to get 1000. 1 hour mabey

TheReaper wrote:
I think Hans Ulrich Rudel's tank hunter squad must be implemented, similar to the PE doctrinal ability. It's a special squad for counter the T34 spam.
According to the wikipedia:
"Tungsten carbide is often used in armor-piercing ammunition, especially where depleted uranium is not available or is politically unacceptable. The first use of W2C projectiles occurred in German Luftwaffe  tank-hunter squadrons, which used 37 mm autocannon  equipped Junkers Ju 87G dive bomber aircraft to destroy Soviet  T-34 tanks in World War II. Owing to the limited German reserves of tungsten, W2C material was reserved for making machine tools and small numbers of projectiles for the most elite combat pilots, like Hans-Ulrich Rudel. It is an effective penetrator due to its high hardness value combined with a very high density.

Tungsten carbide ammunition can be of the sabot type (a large arrow surrounded by a discarding push cylinder) or a subcaliber ammunition, where copper or other relatively soft material is used to encase the hard penetrating core, the two parts being separated only on impact. The latter is more common in small-caliber arms, while sabots are usually reserved for artillery use."
But that's just an idea for the Luftwaffe support.
Cheers.

"Stuka Ace" as a doctrinal ability? sounds good :) ....it wouldn't be that hard to put into code, but it would need a special model and skin for Rudel's Ju-87 Stuka though.

wordsmith wrote:
About JU87G - could be nice but it would be same as PE Hs129B-3 ability and besides I don't think devs gonna make models of planes, even IL2 run is using Hawker Typhoon model with USSR markings.

Yes I know, but I really don't have any idea, what to put to the luftwaffe doctrine. The aerial warfare was the same in both sides, Werner Mölders developed the 4 fighter formation tactic for the Luftwaffe in the Spanish Civil war, then implemented to the allies later called  "the four fingers". Anyway, it would be nice to see the Luftwaffe presence in the faction Ostheer, but without copy-paste the american doctrines it can't be done... :(

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Werwolf wrote:"Stuka Ace" as a doctrinal ability? sounds good :) ....it wouldn't be that hard to put into code, but it would need a special model and skin for Rudel's Ju-87 Stuka though.

Thanks bro, nice Wunderwaffe avatar. :D Or wait, Maybe it could be an instant tank killer Ju-87. Ruder destroys any tank pointed on.  :-[ Its like the starfing run but against tanks.

Last edited May 13, 2010 at 3:58 PM by TheReaper

that wouldn't be far from reality...after all, Rudel was supposed to be a dead-shot at any range with the Stuka G-2 Kanonenvogel and the Fw. 190 (2000+ kills and a record  2,530 combat missions---small wonder that he was awarded with the Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit dem Goldenen Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten). Perhaps the main gripe people would have with it (barring the similarities to the other air-support doctrines) is because some would say that it's OP. However, he was HANS ULRICH RUDEL for god's sake. ;) Just have him require a very long cooldown time for balance.

BTW, A good name for said doctrine call-in might probably be "Stuka Ace" or "Greifvögel" (Birds of Prey) 8)

Last edited May 15, 2010 at 12:57 AM by Werwolf

Werwolf wrote:
However, he was HANS ULRICH RUDEL for god's sake. ;)

Yes, Hitler created him for a new type of medal, beacouse he had it all. And he sank a battleship with his Stuka!!!  ;D