Soviet machine gun

PSIHOPAT wrote:
Ok.

Agree...if you think if giving MG to USSR,will make them to be OP or appear "boring" or not different from others.You say that because don't like to play with Russia...just against...but no matter...

Acutally, i love to play as russia!
I just want them to stay a serious faction!
Thats all man! russians are great for sure!

I just always try to stay neutral to get the best solutions!


Regards

The soviets do not need MG's for suppression. They have the command squad and sniper squads with portable nukes. You drop your artillery slightly behind advancing wehr troops and block their advance with your own infantry. If they move forward their men stop firing accurately and die, if they go back they go boom, if they retreat...well then you've done your job stalling them until you can make tanks.

The one thing, and ONE thing only, that keeps wehr as a viable faction vs the soviets in early game is the LACK of suppression units available to russian troops. Wehr's ability to suppress and Russia's ability to outnumber and overwhelm create balance between the factions. Adding an MG to the soviets creates imbalance in favour of the REDS. Wrong wrong wrong.

I think that some folks just don't understand what 'game balance' really means. Having two factions play against each other using the same units and abilities makes the game boring and predictable. Two mg's beat one mg...gg....he who makes the most mg's wins. Bullshit. Balance is about giving reasonable strengths and weaknesses to each faction. Each faction has abilities and units that others do not, and each faction has abilities and units that counter those other unique abilities. Balance is achieved when all factions have equal opportunity to beat any other faction they are up against; skill and knowledge of the game and its mechanics are the only imbalance...I suppose luck is also in the mix.

" yeh. but the computer just walks right into my russian troops and kils them!"  Talk to the hand buddy....this is a multiplayer game. It isn't meant to be balanced verses the computer..it's a C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R...it already knows your a noob. It knew the moment you hit the start button with computer opponents, and it's designed to make you feel that way.

I disagree with you: the command squad can call arty (like sharpshooters), but german player can retreat immediately and come back, and the arti abilitie take a long time to reload.

And when german infantry come back with MGs, what do you want to do? You cant retreat you infantry, so if your guys are suppressed, werh pios with flames or panzergrenadier with G43 (or MP44) can ripe off your infantry.

Also, why giving MGs for soviet can make the game boring? your example is pretty silly (no insult to you!), COH isnt a MGs fight... German player can counter every soviet unit in early game with better infantry and decent support, in middle game with shrecks, paks and units build before, and in late game with panzer's vet3 spamming (dont talk about IS-2 which can be easily destroyed by vet3 german unit).

Soviet player need a unit to make the early game balance (and interesting - conscript spam is boring).

Also:

from 1.01. to 1.03, Arty of Major had a delay 3 seconds, wich meaned even german player see splashes and red smoke and react on it, ordering MG to remove , he anyway lost all MG because unpack time was longer than arti time.

Now, arty time delay is over 5 seconds, and if german player see red smokes arond MG - it just unpack and runaway, and Major spent arty without use :(

Red_Stinger wrote:
I disagree with you: the command squad can call arty (like sharpshooters), but german player can retreat immediately and come back, and the arti abilitie take a long time to reload.

And when german infantry come back with MGs, what do you want to do? You cant retreat you infantry, so if your guys are suppressed, werh pios with flames or panzergrenadier with G43 (or MP44) can ripe off your infantry.

Also, why giving MGs for soviet can make the game boring? your example is pretty silly (no insult to you!), COH isnt a MGs fight... German player can counter every soviet unit in early game with better infantry and decent support, in middle game with shrecks, paks and units build before, and in late game with panzer's vet3 spamming (dont talk about IS-2 which can be easily destroyed by vet3 german unit).

Soviet player need a unit to make the early game balance (and interesting - conscript spam is boring).

I absolutely agree with you...Soviets really need some extra firepower in early game phase. I mean not exactly extra firepower as suppresive fire. Apart from upgrading Guards, which happens in mid-game and/or building a T-90 there is no such option for soviets. Axis infantry are far better then yours even when you have 5 squads, that are firing on one (in green cover ofcourse). In early game stage the Volksgrenadiers or Panzergrenadiers will rip your conscripts apart. The MG will give you at least some option to keep them at bay. I dont think the MG will make Soviets OP...actually every faction in vanilla COH has a suppresive ability in early game...that makes them OP? In addition if the devs will make MG possible, you as a player have always an option not to build it, if you dont want so...so where is the problem then?

mystic-eye wrote:
I think that some folks just don't understand what 'game balance' really means. Having two factions play against each t giving reasonable strengths and weaknesses to each faction. Each faction has abilities and units that others do not, and each faction has abilities and units that counter those other unique abilities. Balance is achieved when all factions have equal opportunity to beat any other faction they are up against; skill and knowledge of the game and its mechanics are the only imbalance...I suppose luck is also in the mix.

Right what i said, and this guy is right.
This one should be closed.

"Each faction has abilities and units that others do not"

You are wrong:

-soviet infantry is counter by almost every german infantry
-soviet mortars and sharpshooter are counter by same werh unit or by MHT and armored car of PE
-soviet tank hunters are useless compared to panzerschreks...
-soviet AT gun is like werh AT gun or PE marder
-soviet medic truck (which cost population) can only heal, and cant recrew new soldier. Werh can build a bunker (that isnt a doctrinal building!) who can recrew fresh soldier for no cost.
-T-70 and T-90 are useless over Stug which come about the same time
-T-34 even with upgrade, cant stand over a panzer 4, or with a lot of luck. Su-85 or SU-100 are costly compared to their effectiveness.
-IS-2 is powerful, and fortunaly costly, but shrecks infantry or panther/tiger vet3 can destroy him.
-soviet arti is inefficient because of his precision. Werh has nebel and PE has Hummel (doctrinal unit I know) and there are far more precise!
-Werh and PE can suppress and DESTROY every soviet unit in early game
Of course, these comparrison between unit are stupid, but in fact soviet player had to counter MG or lose the game immediately . And a MG supported by german infantry is unbeatable by soviet.

come on this is totally crap man.
you are comparing one faction with 2 factions.
What the hell are you doing?

Your name shows us that you do like soviets. I do like them as well. We just mentioned facts which are acutally true, and you tried to retort which something senseless.

Every point you mentioned is just rediculous.
Just for example:

"-IS-2 is powerful, and fortunaly costly, but shrecks infantry or panther/tiger vet3 can destroy him."
what the hell should that be? a argument?
surely they can otherwise their would be no balance.

I could own everyone of you arguments just like that. But please man, thats not needed, you know that by youself. I would suggest we try to stay cool and forgot about that mg if we dont find a good way to get it in.

Red_Stinger wrote:

-soviet tank hunters are useless compared to panzerschreks...

Apparently you've never set them to ambush, waited for a vehicle to come to you, decloaked them as he passes and tossed an AT grenade, then finished it off with regular shooting. If you are smart you play them like stormtroopers. decloak and move when you are not in range of enemy units, then go into cover and set to ambush. Upgraded AT squads are very useful, and cheaper. They may not pack the same punch as a shrek squad one on one, but you can spam them a little....and they lay mines...mines for free.

Back to topic. Suppression via an MG. I don't think they need it. There's talk of upgraded wehr infantry owning conscripts...well duh! That's why there are better soviet infantry choices, and upgrades to make those even better. Shrelky with upgrades are GREAT for killing moving wehr infantry, as are the guards. Let's not even discuss wehr infantry with vet because we all know they are hard to suppress with an MG anyway.

I just don't get the arguement about NEEDING an MG. The US players have the option to get one but more players choose a barracks start to spam rifles. Some upgrade to BARS and do get suppression, but some skip BARS entirely to get the M8's fast. The fast M8 circumvents the wehr MG totally...as will the russian armour.

NEED and WANT are two different animals. The Devs think you don't NEED an MG as Russians (as do a couple of other people around here) and I have faith that they will tweak the soviet units in future patches so that you wont WANT them anymore either, or maybe you'll find a strat/build order that will fulfill your NEEDS better.

By all means, if you are that sold on having an MG then keep fighting for it. If enough voices speak, perhaps someone will listen, but don't EXPECT to win the fight using garbage arguments like " And a MG supported by german infantry is unbeatable by soviet" . Statements like that PROVE nothing, and are as believable as a sock in the pants.

BLA BLA BLA
Not enough to compare the units.
Soviets can't retreat, can't recrew, can't build OP.
This is the problem... but not a problem for me:I decided switch to german (only vs soviet) for easy win  ;D

Talk to the devs they keep powering down soviet stuff and increasing costs, worry about that first

i think this is a more better mg
12.7mm DShK Heavy Machine Gun on Tripod

seantje12 wrote:
i think this is a more better mg
12.7mm DShK Heavy Machine Gun on Tripod

there is no denying they had mgs its not the point however

Red_Stinger wrote:
"Each faction has abilities and units that others do not"

You are wrong:

-soviet infantry is counter by almost every german infantry
-soviet mortars and sharpshooter are counter by same werh unit or by MHT and armored car of PE
-soviet tank hunters are useless compared to panzerschreks...
-soviet AT gun is like werh AT gun or PE marder
-soviet medic truck (which cost population) can only heal, and cant recrew new soldier. Werh can build a bunker (that isnt a doctrinal building!) who can recrew fresh soldier for no cost.
-T-70 and T-90 are useless over Stug which come about the same time
-T-34 even with upgrade, cant stand over a panzer 4, or with a lot of luck. Su-85 or SU-100 are costly compared to their effectiveness.
-IS-2 is powerful, and fortunaly costly, but shrecks infantry or panther/tiger vet3 can destroy him.
-soviet arti is inefficient because of his precision. Werh has nebel and PE has Hummel (doctrinal unit I know) and there are far more precise!
-Werh and PE can suppress and DESTROY every soviet unit in early game
Of course, these comparrison between unit are stupid, but in fact soviet player had to counter MG or lose the game immediately . And a MG supported by german infantry is unbeatable by soviet.

You are wrong:

-soviet infantry (Strelky) outnumber almost every german infantry
-soviet mortars 1 shot kills whole squads (balance - germans cant allways retreat and cheaply reinforce)
-soviet tank hunters cost less than 2/3 compared to panzerschreks. They also can ambush like PIATs and throw AT nades that work well vs heavy tanks
-soviet AT will kill a PE marder
-soviet medic truck can move, Werh bunker  can recrew fresh soldier only when defensive. Soviet outpost can recrew allways.
-Stug  is useless over SU85 which come about the same time
-T-34 is faster than any german tank with 85mm upgrade (churchills armor) it can kill anything but a panther. Its also cheaper than PzIV.
-IS-2 is the mos powerfull non doctrinal allied tank. It has Pershing armor!
-soviet arti can be seen time and time again on the battlefield. Sharpshooter arti upgrade costs 75ammo but bost arti strikes are free.
-Soviet Strelky are more powerfull than volks and 4men PG squads and are cheaper. Tank hunters and Mortars come early to deny motorbikes, halftracks MGs...
Of course, these comparrison between unit are stupid, but If MG wont be supported by german infantry and well microd germans will loose.

Last edited May 25, 2010 at 3:25 PM by Paciat

I like the guy who reply after 3 months after the topic was dead... And after the patch 1.10 is out!

Of course, strelky can now rape almost every german infantry. It's a well-known problem now, and I think too that they are overpowered.

You need now to upgrade your mortar to kill whole squads, which happen later than before, because other upgrade are more essential.

"AT nades that work very well vs heavy tank" --> If you play against computer, it could, but most of COH players know how do move their tanks quickly...

"soviet AT will kill a PE marder" PE marder is a vehicle, but the equivalent of AT gun of other army. Of course, an AT gun can destroy a marder because it cant aim correctly the gun. I mean that every faction has a UNIT to counter tanks.

Soviet ouptost can always recruit, because soviets cant retreat. Nazi unit can retreat and save their live!

Now, stug come at almost the same time as SU-85 but not always. But thats not the point, and I think this is a potential balance problem.

T-34 are an other problem for german player now. They are much more powerful than before.

IS-2 is of course an awesome tank for allied, as historically.
This is a HEAVY tank, so it is strong! And now its more powerful over buildings, so, yes it IS the most powerfull non-doctrinal allied tank.

"Sharpshooter arti upgrade costs 75ammo but bost arti strikes are free" You seem to forgot that there is a cooldown between every arti shot, mean that you often pay 75MU for a single arti strike because sharpshooter are very vulnerable to even a motorbike, and cant retreat. "time and time again" oh god stop to play against computer AI. Of course, with the boost of ammunition it can make sniper and arti upgrade over and over.

"Of course, these comparrison between unit are stupid, but If MG wont be supported by german infantry and well microd germans will loose." It's so easy to flame an other guy, when you counter what he said 3 months before. The word "now" , so used in this post, show you how your immature reply is.

"NEED and WANT are two different animals. The Devs think you don't NEED an MG as Russians (as do a couple of other people around here) and I have faith that they will tweak the soviet units in future patches so that you wont WANT them anymore either, or maybe you'll find a strat/build order that will fulfill your NEEDS better."

--> NOW, I dont really want a soviet MG, because of the new patch, which make soviet incredibly more interesting to play.Also now they can counter MG more easily than before.

Venoxxis wrote:
come on this is totally crap man.
you are comparing one faction with 2 factions.
What the hell are you doing?

Your name shows us that you do like soviets. I do like them as well. We just mentioned facts which are acutally true, and you tried to retort which something senseless.

Every point you mentioned is just rediculous.
Just for example:

"-IS-2 is powerful, and fortunaly costly, but shrecks infantry or panther/tiger vet3 can destroy him."
what the hell should that be? a argument?
surely they can otherwise their would be no balance.

I could own everyone of you arguments just like that. But please man, thats not needed, you know that by youself. I would suggest we try to stay cool and forgot about that mg if we dont find a good way to get it in.

What the hell are YOU doing??

My name as nothing to do with the soviet faction dude. It's my nickname in every game I play since 5-6 years.
Your reply is so ridiculous that I've laughed about a long time like a retard! Since EF was out, I was always playing Werh in COH vanilla.

Seriously, how can you say that, just seeing my nickname?
My purpose is to bring idea to balance soviet and make them more interesting.

When I say "IS-2 is powerful, and fortunaly costly, but shrecks infantry or panther/tiger vet3 can destroy him." , its obviously to say that IS-2 is a great tank, but it can be countered.
"I could own everyone of you arguments just like that. But please man, thats not needed, you know that by youself" Thats why I've put this in the end of my post : "Of course, these comparrison between unit are stupid" , precisely the sentence that Paciat turned in derision like a child.

Why, by the simple fact that I want to discuss here about an MG that would make early soviet game more interesting, am I getting flamed by members that are, normally, guy who like to discuss carefully and politely?
Or maybe this is because you like the fact that soviet werent an interesting faction? Because its not a topic about an Ostheer MG?
I dont want to know why, but reply posted here a long time ago or recently are senseless.
Anyway the topic is useless NOW, because of the new patch.