Leutnant Gottlieb is Still Useless

It still seems that our reward unit promoting Leutnant Gottlieb to a Luftwaffe Leutnant, he still seems useless.  In my opinion reward units like the 105mm Howitzer Sherman Tank was a far better unit than the croc.  In this case, Leutnant Gottlieb still is useless, no matter which branch he chooses ( Luftwaffe, Wehrmacht).  I would atleast give Luftwaffe Leutnant Gottlieb a upgrade that changes his useless pistol into a STG44 that is 50% more accurate than a regular STG44, also 50% more damage to make up for just having one assault rifle.  I would make the cost 30 munitions.  To balance this, since the regular Wehrmacht Leutnant can't have this upgrade according to no change in vCoH policy, I would nerf some of the abilities the Luftwaffe Leutnant has, or even his health or whatever you think.  Any thoughts?  In games Leutnant Gottlieb has only appeared on the battlefield 3% of the time.  Making him better in combat and logistically will make him more popular to build.

Last edited December 26, 2012 at 7:47 PM by 132

You've forgotten to add a cape and the capacity to fly...The name officer would be changed to Stormfront Officer...Just like the  of comic  The Boys  edition 34
;D

I just can't find a use for him other than sucking damage when he's vet 3.  Vanilla officer is useless.  I use him as a cannon fodder.

Last edited December 27, 2012 at 3:47 AM by 132

Your posts are not constructive, either you stop posting for awhile or think before post something.

Well, it is not like we are going to change something from the wehr officer regardless how this poll ends. I mean, we don't modify vCoH stuff so I'm not sure if you are implying we should.

I think the LW officer and the Soviet mechanics would be improved by a small amount of combat power. The mechanics production value is good. LWO somewhat less so. In either case these squads are usefull for production for a limited time each game. A secondary role with some meat on its bones would be good for both squads.

Some units are should be keep out of heavy fire. That's easy to do right?

Dann, how do you keep The good leutenant out of the way of 30-36 Katyusha rockets inbound?

Otto wrote:
Dann, how do you keep The good leutenant out of the way of 30-36 Katyusha rockets inbound?

I don t see how that point is in any way relevant. In that case Mechanic are also vulnerable to Nebels. And by heavy fire he means infantry and MGs, not artillery. Who waste 3 kats on a singe officer they may or may not hit? And at this point we are talking luck

Pac Fish, go swing on a star. Any rocket attack that can target a base area is not wasted. You are targeting the base, not the production troops. Two or three rocket artillery attacks in closely timed sucession wreaks havoc.

Last edited December 27, 2012 at 2:44 PM by Otto Halfhand

Otto wrote:
Pac Fish, go swing on a star.

Sure, whatever that means

Otto wrote:
Any rocket attack that can target a base area is not wasted.

You are better off targeting actual clusters. Except for the fact you can target retreating units, but you didn't mention that and thats not part of the discussion. This is all luck.

Otto wrote:
Two or three rocket artillery attacks in closely timed sucession wreaks havoc.

Again, this is luck. And we are talking about the Officer. The officer would be in one of two places. In a base, or behind front lines where he can use his abilities effectively. If he is on the front lines and rockets flew by he could just retreat and he would survive. So him dying in that instance is marked off. And lets say he is in the base. The chances of him dying are iffy but this is obviously luck and he can just run into the HQ. If you are getting base raped by kats then obviously you are losing because a kat's range is only so good. SO this brings in a bunch of other things.

And 132's suggestion proposes increasing firepower for health and abilities. So now his health would be that of say, a brit lt, possibly even less (which dies fast in battle when focus fired) and would just have the firepower of a stormtrooper. You wont even need a kat barrage anymore cause he will die even faster now.

The notion that one should target retreating or moving clusters with rocket artillery makes less sense then targeting an area with fixed emplacements that has retreating low health squads moving through it. Especially if the attacking unit has a persisting incendiary attack. I believe the scatter of the rocket attacks works in favor of maximum destruction and mayhem when employed in this fashion.

The limited range of Katyusha's is not an issue here if you target with an attack move followed by a retreat to safe position. The truck mounting makes this particularly effective.

If you shouldn't employ "weak production squads" in the front lines then the logical place for them to be is at base.

At this point m going to let other people argue this because it is clear u and me arent going to see eye to eye about this for a variety of reason.

Note I said changing the REWARD unit, the Luftwaffe Officer, not the regular vCoH officer.  Combat can make the unit more popular, since at vet 3 he has elite armor and an extra 20% health to stack onto the >165 he already has, which is probably more survivability than a conscript squad.  The point is, the Luftwaffe officer is a reward unit that is trying to make the officer more popular, though it still fails to do so and even with its abilities it's not worth 260 manpower.  Mechanics can repair very well, and have the supervise ability.  You would get them for both of these roles.  But getting a sturm armoury, plus the 260 manpower, do you think it's really worth getting an officer just for the supervise?  I mean he can use his abilities on the front line but it is extremely expensive and relies on your munitions income to be useful, and I almost never see people use them at all in games.  Does he seem that useful then?  Two units that cost the same (though tech costs to sturm armoury which probably makes the officer a lategame unit and more expensive), made for sitting in base, mechanics seem a lot better than an Luftwaffe officer even.

Again, our goal is to make the LUFTWAFFE officer more popular and used than its current state.  The closest companion to the officer is the soviet observers.  They have a similar unit that requires to use munitions to be useful, though I'm not complaining since they cost 40 manpower less and they have decent weapons and good survivability (heroic armor) on top of the fact it comes out much earlier.

Last edited December 27, 2012 at 4:44 PM by 132

I agree with most of your argument. Certainly the cost of Mechanics is acceptable given their production bonuses. The LWO I'm not so sure about the cost. Building faster doesn't help much if you don't have the correct resource mix. Perhaps using an HT for LWO transport would be worth the effort. two MGs until you are in the right place at the right time to use your Munis , that might work.

@132: Not every unit has to have the ability to tackle every situation. By giving the LUFTWAFFE officer offensive capabilities you change it from a support role to an offensive role (a crappy one but an offensive role nevertheless). If you don't like the current construct of the Wehr officer then too bad because a reward unit is supposed to be similar in that its role is similar (in this case support) to a vanilla unit but offer something slightly unique. In this case his unique ability is air strikes.

The goal of EF rewards is not to be "popular", its to offer variety to gameplay that would otherwise be repetitive.

So due to the vCoH Wehr officer being UP, the reward unit still has to be UP too?

It also doesn't seem to do very well at supporting, nothing compared to Brit LTs or even a captain.  To make it effective supporting troops you must have a high income in munitions.  If it were up to me I would sacrifice a few of the Luftwaffe Officers abilities and give it a few abilities from the Tales of Valor Opertaion Assault Officer ( Inspired Command, Propaganda Cloak, etc) of course with a munitions price though much more useful and a whole ton less situational abilities.  And my suggestion for assault rifle is more for so that it can defend itself against a engineer squad, or maybe scare away a few low health squads here and there.

Last edited December 28, 2012 at 2:04 AM by 132

I think you see the Leutnant from the wrong view here! It's basicly just there to increase production. It's a support unit, wait it's not even a support unit, it's a base unit supposed to stay at base and boost production :P. The Luftwaffe officer however gets an at least a little better ability regarding to close range support.

im too lazy to read this.
but basically the primary use i find for the officer is nothing todo with actual combat but rather indirect support by boosting the speed of production buildings like often when i bring him out is to quickly burst out a tank cluster.

BffWithDEATH wrote:
im too lazy to read this.
but basically the primary use i find for the officer is nothing todo with actual combat but rather indirect support by boosting the speed of production buildings like often when i bring him out is to quickly burst out a tank cluster.

Yes, otherwise he would have had an aura like the brit officer.

Walki wrote:It's a support unit, wait it's not even a support unit, it's a base unit supposed to stay at base and boost production :P.

this

If we are to consider LWO to be a base/support squad wouldn't it be nice if his production abilities were somewhat different then the WO? The ME262 bombing run is fine, (Irksome as it is that this bit of Historical Relevance made it into the Mod). IDK about the propaganda ability. I'm not even sure what "weakening an enemy squad for a short time" means. I would much rather weaken the enemy squad with an MP40, personally.

What kind of production ability would be different enough and useful enough to justify the use of LWO as a reward unit? I know the Devs don't like to clone or copy abilities. It seems that here is an opportunity to come up with a new production ability that is in keeping with the high standards of the EF_Mod.

First of. Yes, give the luftwaffe officer a cape. Second, nerf the luftwaffe officer so he wont have as much health as the WH one. Third, give him the abilety to pick up weapons just like the British lieutenant for example.

Everybody happy.

I think Officer can pick up weapons Sommar. I may be mistaken. I havent tried it yet. I think he can but his weapon slot is like 1 or something

And yeah, he needs a cape :D

Why does the Leutenant need a cape? I hear what your saying but I do not understand. ???

Pac-Fish wrote:
I think Officer can pick up weapons Sommar. I may be mistaken. I havent tried it yet. I think he can but his weapon slot is like 1 or something

And yeah, he needs a cape :D

I have tried on both officers and they still can't pick up any weapons (I found a 1-slot BAR but still the officer is still determined to kill with his weak Luger)

He can't pick up anything expect for allied supply crates. AH yes sure he can. He is able to man a flak vierling on his own. I've done that already :P.

Have you tried a Flak 88? And when manning Flak how is his performance. KCHs improve the performance of most weapons systems do they not?

Otto wrote:
Have you tried a Flak 88? And when manning Flak how is his performance. KCHs improve the performance of most weapons systems do they not?

I doubt he'll be able to man it cause it needs at least a gunner and a loader. Flak 38 Vierling only needs one gunner (the others are decoration :P). It doesn't increase the performance KCH is just an expensive way to crew a Flak88. The only thing that stays is the health I think. The vet and elite armour just vanishes.

Get vet 3 infantry and get vet 3 support and have your KCH man a MG42 HMG and they are the toughest MG unit in game.