v1.7.02 Proaganda Discussion

Here is a proposal for Soviet Propaganda Doctrine. It would replace or be a reward unit for OBR76 on RHS, 3 CP as now.

Ability: AIR SUPERIORITY: cost per use: 75 Mt. An Aeroflot of Grey Steppe Falcons overflies the map. It makes no attacks but takes a snapshot of the entire map. Anything that would be spotted when flare is activated will be shown. This could be shown on the tactical map and the main map simply by turning off fog of war. Duration 20 seconds.

If Flare is ever moved to Propaganda that would be gravy. Moving flare would fit in an Artillery Company Commander like Propaganda.

I can see it being abusive. Reason: base spying and snipers. People consider air recon abusive.

Cost and duration of this ability are open to negotiation in the balancers part of Mod Development. I think an aeroflot passing over the map would be wild. Every Axis AA gun on the map would go off. They might even get some vet out of it. I think the Propaganda effect would be demoralizing to your opponent.

I understand your concerns with abuse.  The whole way snipers are used in vCoH is abusive but we are stuck with the vCoH thing rather then a more sensible pay as you go snipe like the CW.

PE has Tank Awareness and Infantry awareness (Vampyre ability). CW has the Triangulation device thingy. Amis have their aerial Recon. All factions except Soviets have cheap vehicles that can do a suicide base run for intel. To have to pay Mt to obtain this info is pound for pound more expensive then paying a similar amount of MP for a jeep Schwimm, bike or Ket. All of these things can be considered abusive. I would like to hear other voices then you and I on the abuse issue.

personally i would love this, i thoroughly enjoy watching my air units fly around wreaking havoc, its generally my whole reason for choosing doctrines with air capabilities is just to watch them fly around, and an optional ability like this would be ballanced really, Axis have serious aa capabilities and its just 1/2 plane/s
infact PE start with 2 AA guns.
and you can quite quickly gain AA capabilities with wehr.
so countering is easily achieved, but man it would be great to have scout planes flying around :DD

if added they need awesome SFX :DD

Soviet already has Command squad to watch around. The recon flight is considered abusive like Fish said because it make the counter snipe much more easier, increase fire range without a land scout unit with a cheap price of 50 ammo.
Reveal whole map is completely unbalance and very potentially abusive.

Something is cool and awesome when you're playing it could be very annoying when you're playing against them, especially something is unbalance.
@Otto: Scout units can still scout enemy base without making a suicide run through base. Your suicide tatic scare me Otto. :P

Dann88 wrote:
Your suicide tatic scare me Otto. :P

OMG I didnt even realize he said that until u mentioned it XD.

IIRC there is a distinct noise each building makes but tbh I dont hear them when I go over the enemies base. Some ppl say you can "hear metal clanging" but I dont hear jack squat

Pac-Fish wrote:
IIRC there is a distinct noise each building makes but tbh I dont hear them when I go over the enemies base. Some ppl say you can "hear metal clanging" but I dont hear jack squat

You can also see the welders in action when active production is taking place.

Your positions' regarding abusiveness is acknowledged and noted. This may well be the case as Dann and Fish observe.

The Sovs have three options at present for dealing with sniper spam duels at present. FOs, CS and Fast Light Tankovy. Use of CS as a spotter is most risky because early game it is CS's role to get that crucial early vet1. FOs are are good choice but tend to cripple  the production que in SSB and the pop burden, (operating two FOs: one for sniper work and one for general rcce), puts a dent in early MP gain rates. Light Tankovy works production wise but is a gambit because you must face the real possibility of having to sacrifice a T90. This can delay T4, (T34s) if it backfires.

@Dann88: your response to being scared of sacrificing units is interesting. I do not recommend suicide tactics. It is usually a bad idea. Its one of the pitfalls of the BiB tactics currently being discussed. Most Players are very uncomfortable with calculated risk in this regard and fall back on conservative play. In the Forum Boards it is considered a horrible idea. I have been in discussions with the olde crew. They frequently would eschew FLT not because it doesn't make sense but because it may critically slow T4. The psychological edge accrues to to the bold. It doesn't always work, but it works! Fortune Favors the Brave.

Or you could counter snipe but ofc that is relatively hard

Counter sniping is good fun but the micro distracts a lot of attention from other things. I think an FO and Sniper Combination is effective when you can afford the Pop.

So you don't like Air Superiority. What should be done to inprove the utility of the Propaganda RHS?

I forget what is RHS. OBR, Stand your ground, and what else ???

Not one Step Back -1CP, OBR76 -3CP, and God of War -3CP, (or 7CP if you prefer to look at it that way). That is the problem.

I like your air superiority idea.  Very unique.  One thing I would suggest is making the cool down very long and increasing the cost to 85 munitions.  That should balance it out I guess.

simply increasing the cost of something doesnt balance it out. Once its used it still the same OP thing it was b4

132 wrote:
I like your air superiority idea.  Very unique.  One thing I would suggest is making the cool down very long and increasing the cost to 85 munitions.  That should balance it out I guess.

Actually I originally thought 100 MT might work. The real question is the length of time the ability is active. There is only so much you can do with a snapshot in realtime.

I really like this idea! Compared to the Commando triangulation trick, which focuses on having an unknown understanding of your opponent's layout, having this one being blatant, but only momentary would give your opponent time to change their defenses and unit positions before it's too late. Stonewalling players would get caught where they are weakest, while persistent players would compensate their strengths for weaknesses, in order to catch the soviet player off-guard.

So long, of course, that the opposing player was made aware of every time the Soviet player used this ability.

Oh and another thing. It would completely screw with game play. Lets say you have an MG. Suddenly SU uses air thing. Boop. Your entire defense is ruined. I dont think u guys realize how abusive recon is.

I don't suggest the enemy shouldn't be warned. The graphic portion of this idea is to send a large number of aircraft overhead, nominally to attack an undisclosed target beyond the map. No bombing, no strafing, no combat at all unless it is aerial combat with enemy planes which happen to be overhead. If that is feasible, heh, heh). The air raid siren could certainly be used. But I think the real warning would be when every AA battery the axis has starts firing all at once. Even the hard of hearing should be able to hear that. What I have in mind is the Wolfheze scenario at the beginning of Market Garden.

It doesnt matter whether the is a siren or not. All aircraft are visible on the mini map no matter which side its on. Its like that for any air ability.

Wait, how is a Command Squad a spotter?  Does it have more sight than regular infantry squad?

Last edited December 23, 2012 at 4:15 AM by 132

The CS has a larger spotting radius then most squads. You can see a larger arc of visibility on the TAC Map. It is easier to see when capping a point close to an enemy controlled zone. I think it might be 35m, IDK.

Yes, as Otto said, actually the major (the guy who has the Tokarev handgun) is the spotter of Cs squad.

i dont really see how this is OP, semi exspensive with significent cooldown means you cant just spam multiple uses like you could with american scout planes, even so its only recon and isnt fighting back.
it would just be exciting for all players when suddenly you have air raid sirens going off aa going mad planes with baddass SFX flying everywhere, now tell me that wouldn't be an awesome surprise in a match?

and if its really that OP it could replace God Of War, optionally.

You seem to think that just by making something expensive its suddenly makes it non OP. The fact still remains the second you have the funds for it everything in the map can be revealed and everything the Axis player has goes to shit. And GOW is an essential ability for propaganda to break enemy defenses. And plus it fits the theme of propaganda and artillery.

If a massive air strike, even if it is off map, sirens wailing Flak firing , general mayhem and confusion isn't a Propaganda coup, I don't know what is.

Otto wrote:
If a massive air strike, even if it is off map, sirens wailing Flak firing , general mayhem and confusion isn't a Propaganda coup, I don't know what is.

nuff said c:
i really hope they consider this, i would much rather have this than God Of War really.

Like other people care :P

Why not just have mass army of recon planes flying in one direction area at a period of time?

Basically same effect of the previous one.

they did something like this in BotB its a one off use for the 7th army doctrine costs 500muni and its a clusterfuck of german planes that destroy every unit they see but can only be used once so you have to be smart, but can really be a game turner if you getting overrun, maybe they could do the same thing for a ooptional replacment of God Of War

BOTB Balance isn't reflective of EF balance

Never said it was, but the devs do ask for suggestions.