1.7xx Breakthrough Discussion

The latest patch brings us another incarnation of The Soviet Armor Command Tree. The changes are refreshing.

• Mechanics are greatly improved The production rules are fascinating. It makes Fast Light Tankovy a very solid option and gives us a chance to switch resources sround a bit. How do Mechanics get vet and what does it do?


• Tank Riders has had a radical face lift. It would be nice if Mechanics riding tanks could repair while garrisoned and stationary. I do not understand why Guards may only opt for SMGs when this CT is chosen. Heavy Infantry with lots of Health should be able to choose SMGs regardless of Commander Tree chosen.


• The choice of callins as Heavy turreted tank or Tank Destroyer is nice on both sides of the trees.


• How does Inspired Speech work now? I'm certain there have been changes.


• How does the air strike work now. I know there are changes here as well.

Besides the SMG change the only thing that needs improvement are the various descriptions for the CT.

Mechanics get vet by killing (good luck) and don't have any real bonuses. Just improvements to sight or detection and things like that. Guard PPSs would be completely gone if I hadn't thought that SVTs didn't really suit units riding tanks. Guards aren't intended to be solo destroyers of armies. They are meant to use utility, nades and tankiness to allow other troops to attack easier. Inspired speech had no changes and is really only useful on Snipers, to make them move normal speed while stealthed. The IL-2 had the strafe weakened vs infantry, since that is not its focus. Now, the carpet bomb is more reliable than the previous rocket run that often would not fire at all. It is VERY effective against groups of vehicles that don't move, covers a fairly wide area and is more reliable and accurate than bombing run. Price and damage we are tweaking.

It sounds like more work needs done on vetting Mechanics. They only have pistols correct? How many weapons slots do they have? I suspect that pickup weapons is the only way to hope for vet. Sight and detection buffs are lame for this squad. what are the experience levels required for vet?

Here is an idea you probably will dislike. In the event of vet1 supervised costs go down by 5 additional MP, vet 2 reduces muni cost to 25, vet 3 decreases production time additional 0.1.  I don't think you can call it OP though. Its not bloody likely the mechanics will get much experience.  :P

Mechanics, just like Luftwaffe Ground Forces, are troops that don't rely on vet because they are not offensive troops, so no one would expect you earn vet with those or the bonuses earned help you to improve them a lot.

So, Mechs are fine as it, combat-wise, because they are not intended to be useful in combat.

I do not understand why so called non-offensive troops cannot engage in combat and get vet. This is unrealistic when rear areas get overrun. A lowly mechanic is surely able to fabricate and use a petrol bomb. Other supervisory squads have MP44s Sten guns  etc. Your example of LWGFs can pickup two shrecks (Wehr) and when they reach vet3 offensive will make short work of armored forces, (1.25x damage IIRC).

The forward observer is another squad that isn't supposed to engage in combat. Of course it gets sniper smoke only after it attains vet 3? I think this rather odd.

slightly OT: I was channeling my Father in Law "Dead" Eddie Slonaker, FO for the 230 FA/30th US "Old Hickory". His bronze star, two Purple Hearts, battlefield commission as well as his participation in the defeat of 5 panzer divisions at Mortain when the 230th was surrounded on August 7, 1944: would suggest that "so no one would expect you earn vet with those or the bonuses earned help you to improve them a lot". is not what I would expect at all.

Otto wrote:
I do not understand why so called non-offensive troops cannot engage in combat and get vet\

No one said you cant engage in combat or get vet. Its just really hard t do so. Have fun trying to get vet 3 mechanics

Otto wrote:
This is unrealistic when rear areas get overrun. A lowly mechanic is surely able to fabricate and use a petrol bomb.

If every units could fight efficiently what would be the need for real troops? Just like in team shooter games, each person has a special role . They are not all rounders. Might as well spam Sturmovie. Wait a second............

Otto wrote:
Other supervisory squads have MP44s Sten guns  etc.

Like? Got an example? Luft officer and Wehr officer both have pistols soooooooo

Otto wrote:
Your example of LWGFs can pickup two shrecks (Wehr) and when they reach vet3 offensive will make short work of armored forces, (1.25x damage IIRC).

Uhhh mechanics can pick up weapons too you know. They have 4 weapon slots, which means they can pick up like a shreck and a DP. And its not like LGF get vet 3 instantaneously. You act like its so easy. Do you realize how fragile they are? Weaker than volks IMO. And you realize a LGF is a PE unit and a Wehr shreck is a Wehr weapon. So now this brings in team game rules where everything is different.

Otto wrote:
The forward observer is another squad that isn't supposed to engage in combat. Of course it gets sniper smoke only after it attains vet 3? I think this rather odd.

So what is your point? Do you want it removed or something? Its just a freebie. If you get it, whoop. If not, oh well. Like vet 3 conscripts.

I just want to point out that PE offensive vet doesn't give damage bonuses but gives accuracy, cooldown and penetration bonuses instead.

Even if we gave mechanics insane vet they would never gain it without picking up a weapon which we will not balance solely around. Instead, they are under the expectation they will NOT gain vet and it won't really matter to them anyway as a non-combat unit.

CPT also has a pistol Fishy. :D

GodlikeDennis wrote:
CPT also has a pistol Fishy. :D

Oh yeah speaking of the Captain there is a Lt. too with a Sten :P. But thats currently an exception, not a norm.

Last edited December 12, 2012 at 10:53 AM by Pac-Fish

Just out of interest on this topic, does PE veterancy work differently in terms of attaining the rank, compared to other teams?

My Luftwaffe (usually just the one squad) will usually have rank three by the mid-point in the game, by being around Flaks, 88's and mortar halftracks, repairing them and "absorbing" their kills. Naturally it's far more useful to give them defensive veterancy so that they can continue to do this job, but later in game, they can prove to be rather effective stonewalls, soaking up damage while other units flank.

Is this method of veterancy applicable to other teams? Could mechanics gain veterancy by sitting behind a tank, repairing it, or as was said earlier, can they only gain vet through combat?

@ Mono: I think in Opposing Fronts THQ tried two versions of vet, one for CW one for PE. Both revolved around mutual support and command radius. In PE's case I think they were trying to show the benefits of Kampfgruppe cooperation. I have found LWGTs to vet nicely as well. I would like to see Mechanics do repair when in garrison as Tank Riders, (in stationary mode is fine). If vet is not to be considered for certain classes of units I think an additional ability should be granted, (without vet requirements). Mine laying might be nice.

@GLD: It certainly makes sense to avoid balance issues with pick-up weapons. Question: Doesn't penetration effect the amount of received damage? In which case PE Vet improves the chance of penetration and since all dropped shreks become Wehr shreks; which IIRC do greater damage then PE shreks? Is the Tank Riders ability done or do you'all have additional plans for it?

@ Pac-Fish: You are  correct about the MP44 thing.  :-[ My major concern with EF squad models is that they be well thought out and well designed. The Mechanics design shows a large improvement in 1.7. THe designer(s) are doing a good job. I would like to encourage them to greater heights. As a matter of fact for various reasons I would like to see a Soviet scout car and or A/C. The present CAP COST of 6 for FO is too high! It is higher then a T70 or T90 IIRC. If the FO cannot be improved to be worth its CAP it should be replaced. BTW I enjoy using Low End squads in different ways. Vetting them shows they have accomplished something.

Otto wrote:
[...]

@GLD: It certainly makes sense to avoid balance issues with pick-up weapons. Question: Doesn't penetration effect the amount of received damage? In which case PE Vet improves the chance of penetration and since all dropped shreks become Wehr shreks; which IIRC do greater damage then PE shreks? Is the Tank Riders ability done or do you'all have additional plans for it?

[...]

Since 2.602 PE dropped schrecks becomes PE dropped schrecks. The only difference is that when dropped, their slot size is reduced from 4 to 2.

MonolithicBacon wrote:
Just out of interest on this topic, does PE veterancy work differently in terms of attaining the rank, compared to other teams?

Only PE gets the share vet thing. Brits all give their vet to one unit. They are like polar opposites. One gives vet to everyone, and everyone gives vet to one.

No unit can ever get vet from repair, not AFAIK

PE gain vet by killing; same as other factions. The unit that actually kills gets full xp value, 2nd closest unit gets 0.5 that value, 3rd closest 0.25 etc.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
PE gain vet by killing; same as other factions. The unit that actually kills gets full xp value, 2nd closest unit gets 0.5 that value, 3rd closest 0.25 etc.

That's a really interesting design. I had always wondered why units stood near to Hummels ranked up like they were popping steroids.

I have noticed that sometimes during an Air Raid a Hurricane will make a Strafing Pass and Bombing Run and fail to fire or drop bombs even when beaucoup targets are in its path. This seems a little strange.

The KV1 has a feature that allows it to pass through Sovit Tank Traps one way only ... sometimes. Sometimes the KV1 passes through Soviet Tank Traps and crushes them. Is the a reason for this dualistic behaviour? I haven't checked myself, but Does SU85 have the same characteristics?

Its obviously a bug

KV1 is a heavy tank now.  Basically in this patch it is just like a British Churchill Tank, but without the tank shock ability but better AT abilities.  The voice of the KV1 is even the same as the Churchill, but in Russian.

Last edited December 25, 2012 at 1:38 PM by 132

The KV1 has always been a heavy tank, with the incidental benefits, (like heavy crush), all heavy tanks have. The interesting thing here is the early availability (after 4 CP), and no fuel requirements to produce. If you have a use for the abilities of any heavy tank this is an attractive proposition.

Otto wrote:


Question: Doesn't penetration effect the amount of received damage?

It doesn't add any damage. Penetration is the chance to hit the enemy vehicle/tank for that matter. Damage is what happens when it penetrates or is refelected. The IS-2 I think has less Pen than a Firefly but has tons more damage. 

Wekwekboris wrote:

Otto wrote:
Question: Doesn't penetration effect the amount of received damage?

It doesn't add any damage. Penetration is the chance to hit the enemy vehicle/tank for that matter. Damage is what happens when it penetrates or is refelected. The IS-2 I think has less Pen than a Firefly but has tons more damage. 

I am under the impression that if you achieve penetration you obtain full damage when you get a hit. If you get a hit but no penetration you obtain less than full damage. Is this correct?

Otto wrote:

Wekwekboris wrote:

Otto wrote:
Question: Doesn't penetration effect the amount of received damage?

It doesn't add any damage. Penetration is the chance to hit the enemy vehicle/tank for that matter. Damage is what happens when it penetrates or is refelected. The IS-2 I think has less Pen than a Firefly but has tons more damage. 

I am under the impression that if you achieve penetration you obtain full damage when you get a hit. If you get a hit but no penetration you obtain less than full damage. Is this correct?

Yeah, you obtain full damage when it penetrates. You get a bonus on rear armor and when it doesnt penetrate you will deal less damage. Fireflies have great pen and range but has mediocre damage. I think the T-34/85 has a bit more damage than a Firefly. Panther has less range/less pen but much greater damage than the Firefly.

I'm finding the right side of the tree to be absolutely horrid now. The Mechanics are good, yes, but they're not particularly useful if you go right side first. Tank riding adds something, which is, in my opinion, completely useless.

Whoop de fucking do, I can cap a point with infantry garrisoned in my T34 -.-

Amen, brother! Tank Riders certainly was gutted. They even took away my non-BT SMGs.  :'( I know the old design team wanted to give all Soviet Tanks this ability but I have no idea why. Tank Riders seem to die like flies. The Bren-Carrier makes a far superior capping unit. Unless the Devs can see clear to some APC its the only mechanized transport the Soviets will likely get. And only doctrinally at that. The only improvement I can think of would be if Ingeneri/Stormovie/Mechanics could repair while riding; but even there only Mechanics can ride.

If Tank Riders were done away with entirely what ability or call-n would you replace it with?

Otto wrote:
If Tank Riders were done away with entirely what ability or call-n would you replace it with?

Not that I'm looking to do away with the tank riders, I've always imagined that units gaining suppression reductions (from hiding behind vehicles) or having buffs from being around vehicles, such as increased movement speed whenever they're in the vicinity, as they're sprinting to keep up with the only cover they have.

I don't think it works that way Bacon. AFAIK Tank Riders are in worse cover, Negative_Roadway_cover I believe,. They should receive increased accuracy from firing from a stationary position even if the tank is moving as well. There may be other plusses and minuses, IDK.

I believe the idea was to ride beyond the enemy line and disembark. That is why Engeneri and Stormovie were excluded, so they couldn't roll over bunkers. When I have tried this type of tactic the tank riders usually get killed on vehicles first.

Nice work on the different maps. :)

Otto wrote:
I don't think it works that way Bacon. AFAIK Tank Riders are in worse cover, Negative_Roadway_cover I believe,. They should receive increased accuracy from firing from a stationary position even if the tank is moving as well. There may be other plusses and minuses, IDK.

I believe the idea was to ride beyond the enemy line and disembark. That is why Engeneri and Stormovie were excluded, so they couldn't roll over bunkers. When I have tried this type of tactic the tank riders usually get killed on vehicles first.

Nice work on the different maps. :)

Cheers, but I was only stating it as an alternative. Honestly, using tanks as cover is something I expected the game to have when I started playing just after the vanilla release date, but even an engine as advanced as this never seemed to pull it off. Granted, shots aimed at infantry hiding behind tanks usually won't reach them, but the suppression does.

So instead of having infantry riding on tanks, coverless and exposed, why not have them on the ground, just as exposed, but at the very least inspired to rush on ahead? Mortar and rifle fire would still rip them to pieces, but with a little micro, you could easily rush tanks and infantry past enemy lines, just as you would with riders, if the infantry were a little faster.

It sounds like you want to grant FTML suppression reduction to infantry advancing behind tanks. You can do this with the Urban CT_doctrine. If I understand correctly a BT ability would energize an aura around tanks that reduces the suppression rate, (or more probably increases the suppression recovery rate to infantry within the radius of effect). This would work better with slower tanks since the infantry still needs to keep up. A fire-up/sprint might work in this regard. Sounds a little OP but I like the idea.

Hey, I'm no balancer!

Still, it's only an idea! Frankly though, I love the idea of infantry sprinting behind their tanks, just as much as riding on them!

Well, Inspired speech will give you a 5 second sprint with your tank riders.

Don't get me wrong, you're absolutely right!

MonolithicBacon wrote:
I've always imagined that units gaining suppression reductions

Bltizkrieg does this IIRC so it is possible

It shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. AFAIK supression is cumulative. Suppression removal works at a constant rate. When the suppression threshold no longer is met the effects go away. Change the rate of suppression removal and you have the desired effect without removing the possibility of further suppression. Pinning I think may work similarly except that there is a minimum timer on the effect.

The ability only costs 50 munitions, and only makes them move faster so I don't have any problem with it.  It's no blitzkrieg ability, much less effective making up in early game availability and less cost.