Rank ideas!

I propose to correct rank mistakes (icon, names of ranks) and use this (my) table and use Collar Insignia for the Panzer Elite (Waffen-SS).
And I propose textured the PE as the Waffen-SS and use some more realistic texture (not "full-realistic") of infantry for Wehrmacht.
In my table most ranks correspond to each other (look at colours).
Also, I suggest to replace the T17 to Stuart with a machine gun. It is more historical.

I have useful links about ranks ;)
http://www.secondeguerre.net/media/insignesaxe/me_insignesss.html
http://www.secondeguerre.net/media/insignesaxe/me_insignesallemands.html
http://dalefranks.com/wwii/
...

Last edited August 14, 2009 at 6:56 PM by UeArtemis

I fail to see the point in this... we're not modifying other factions or the Insignia/Names of the other factions Ranks. Anything other than the Soviet Union (and Ostheer when we get there) is nothing to do with us.

I'm sure we'll look into changing the Soviet ranks to more historically accurate versions and names, but that's only if its possible to get them integrated (which we aren't sure of at the moment)... currently, these are still in the works.

Last edited August 14, 2009 at 7:15 PM by BurroDiablo

You know: to change text and some icons is quickly, not a lot of work.
Do not make "thrash"!

If you do not correct mistakes, then why do you will use historically correct things? If you keep mistakes, you can use fictional ranks! And this is wrong!

And I think that better is creating a Japanese faction, than one more German. The Japanese can be similar to the PE and has a lot of light vehicles, but not heavy.

P.S. The table in "Idea1.doc"! Look at it.

Last edited August 14, 2009 at 8:40 PM by UeArtemis

I'm sure this mod was never intended to be completely historically accurate anyway, and will fit in as an "unofficial expansion" better because of it. And I doubt the majority of CoH players either know, or really care that much about the exact ranks and insignia of the Red Army..

Isn't it a pretty forgone conclusion that the Japanese will not be featured in this. Partly why its called the "Eastern Front" mod. Besides, weve already seen evidence of new Ostheer units like the Elefant, and ideas for the Ostheer have been discussed quite a lot in the suggestions area recently.

Cheers

Last edited August 14, 2009 at 11:29 PM by luz777

Well that's the thing he's not talking about the Red Army ranks. He's talking about modifying pre-existing German factions.

But will there be ranks for the Soviets?

We've made ranks for the Soviets, but the problem is getting them into the game (for a custom faction).

Look, I'm part of the pacific team and we're making the ija. This team has slogged it's guts out trying to make a realistic eastern front expansion without any tutorials. Look to our mod for the Japanese, but for pete's sake stop asking this team for the Japanese, let them get on with their work. From the pacific team, we're amazed at the work you guys have done and we wish you luck for initial release.

About ranks... Good to here you are trying to put them in, but I have a point about the commisar and the major on the moddb page. I know they're old pics, but I think that they should be reversed, since the commisar model looks like a highly decorated soldier, while the major looks somewhat like a commisar, just a personal opinion

The Commissar certainly looks more like a Commissar than the Major does. The Major looks more like a Lieutenant General in Winter dress and the Commissar seems to have the medals of a Captain, but its not a massive deal, we're not aiming for extreme historical accuracy right down to the colours of the lapels, we're aiming for entertainment... we're not going to loose sleep over a few tiny inaccuracies. =

If I have time, I will make right icons, but I don't have time :(
There is no extreme historical accuracy, you have no historical accuracy at all.

Other version is in Idea3.doc.

Last edited August 15, 2009 at 11:59 AM by UeArtemis

No historical accuracy? Oh yes, because in this mod the Russians are fighting Australian Jedi's sent from the centre of the sun.

Christ, a few dodgy looking Ranks and suddenly everyone thinks this is set in a parallel universe. Please stop being so nauseatingly pedantic.

Do not forget about your inverted epaulets and guardsmen with bandages, conscripts and regulars, T-90...

But I think if mod will be made by the Relic we have something like this:

1. Efreitor
2. Junior Sergeant
3. Sergeant
4. Senior Sergeant
5. Starshina
6. Podpraporshchik
7. Praporshchik
8. Senior Praporshchik
9. Junior Lieutenant
10. Lieutenant
11. Senior Lieutenant
12. Captain
13. Major
14. Podpolkovnik
15. Polkovnik
16. Brigade General
17. General-major
18. General-lieutenant
19. General of the army
20. Marshal

:( It is sad

Last edited August 25, 2009 at 11:58 AM by UeArtemis

I think it's time you understood that the historical accuracy in the mod is to the same levels as the rest of COH/TOV.
We cannot and will not get stuck to what is actually a pointless 'selective hard core historical accuracy' debate.

Hard core historical accuracy is not what the COH game and the mod is about! The game and the mod is about cinematic action and and factions that offer a gamer nice tactical and fun options to play the game.

We use inspiration(key word!) and ideas from what the soviet army used in ww2, but that in no way means that we'll try and make them as they were in ww2. Why?..cause this isn't a hard core ww2 simulation game.

So, please step out of this hard core midset and make suggestions that are compatible the the mod's goals instead of ranting about hard core historical accuracy of how the red army really was in ww2 etc.

It isn't "hard core". The Relic keep some historical realism and their "historical mistakes" need for political correctness and balanced gameplay. I think that your the Red Army isn't on a Relic level of historical accuracy.

I firmly believe you're wrong on this and i will simply make some small comparisons to your main complaints regarding historical accuracy.

-'Guards' having the arm band is what your complaint is about. 'Guard'  was a honoured bestowed on combat formations who had proven their battle worthiness and which from then on received better gear/tanks/ammo etc than standard formations.
-Knight's cross-they're dressed like juftwaffe pilots with a leather jacket running around with MP44s. Since when did knight's cross holders picked to form elite units in the German army?-bollox historical accuracy. but guess what..they made them that way to create a distinctive looking unit they wanted for game purpose!

T-90- only a couple of prototypes made and used

M-26, less than 2 dosen saw action only in the last 14days of ww2!!
Sherman crocodiles. 4 were used in europe and lost shortly after the landing
Pz4J with a short gun and side skirts? Never existed!
Yeah that's alot different to having t-90s...not

No, we are just as 'historically accurate' as relic if not more. You simply have a specific idea of what you think the soviet faction should look like and prefer 'selective historical accuracy' and that seems to blind you to what the team is achieving here

Last edited August 15, 2009 at 3:22 PM by Zerstörer

As I say: The Relic keep some historical realism and their "historical mistakes" need for political correctness and balanced gameplay.
I think they chose all right.

Some gameplay roles exist in game:
Builder
main infantry
Scout car
Sniper
Mortar
Machine gun
Armoured Personal carrier
Light Armoured Vehicle
Anti-gun
Medium Tank
Anti-infantry Vehicle
AT-Tank
Doctrinal squad
Heavy doctrinal tank
...

Do you use this scheme? M26 saw first battle in February of 1945... end of the war was in May...  Sherman Crocodile and Stubby are ideal for AI-Tank role.
Yes, in WWII were about 20 of T-90. 20 prototypes are a great number for the dying Reich, but negligible for the Union.
What is yours Scout Vehicle of the Red Army?
You haphazardly (unsystematic) added units and add vehicles. There are no Scout Vehicle, Armoured Personal Carrier, is a lot of heavy armour and infantry squads, irregular units (Partisans).

I would like to help you as a gamedesigner and a historical consultant, and with some 2D graphics, but now I am very busy by treatment.

P.S. Stubby existed ;)

Last edited August 15, 2009 at 6:04 PM by UeArtemis

Well...

The Soviet Army had Scout cars the BA-64B, if you could call them "Scout cars" when they are as defined as Armored cars,
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/2-USSR/09-ArmoredCars/BA/BA-64B.htm

As for troop Transport, their main transporter was the American Halftrack or WHITE M2,
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/2-USSR/08-Halftracks/US-Halftracks/M2.htm

Right, you really need to know your facts if you're going to preach historical accuracy. Pz4D-F1 had the short 75mm gun and all those that survived by mid42 where converted to F2 with the long barreled gun. All P4s since 42 carried the long gun. The sideskirts where first introduced to the G/H models in 43. There was never a Pz4 with short gun and side skirts.

2 dosen M26 tanks fighting for a couple of months in WW2 is a lot less contribution than a T90 even less insignificant for the US army.

We have opted not to use armoured cars to make the soviet faction different.
As for armoured cars...historically there was only really the Ba-10 which wasn't used for scouting cause it's off road mobility was piss poor since it was just a trcuk with armoured plates on it. it was used for behind the front line patrol dutie and convoy escort. Light tanks like the T70 where used instead for armoured recon. The other one was the ba64 which was a Gaz jeep with thin armoured plates all around it. If we did make one it would have been like a swimmwagen/Jeep....we don't want that at the moment.

We do have a great historical knowledge and we do add vehicles that were used by the soviet union in WW2 regardless of wether in your opinion they were significant or not.

As I said, it's quite clear that you have your own vision of what the faction should look like to fit your 'stereotypical soviet army'. So anything different you seem to call 'historically inaccurate' and badger the mod.
This is cleary not the case and is not true. You need to stop trying to force your ideas on how the faction should look claiming 'historical accuracy' when that's clearly not the case.

Last edited August 15, 2009 at 4:52 PM by Zerstörer

In WWII existed such PanzerIV:
A-F - Assault and start versions with a short gun.
G - with a normal gun
H-K - with a long gun version.
I didn't think that all assault versions of tank was upgraded to long gun version. Stubby was good variant for AI-tank role, I didn't see alternative: a medium armour, a good AI and AV weapon, unique style.
The USA didn't have any other heavy tank what was in battles of WWII and the USA need heavy armour in game => M26
T-90 as A.I.-L.V. role has alternatives. it is your Puma-copy. And we used American anti-air self-propelled guns.
Scout car role isn't Light Armour role. It is first lightest vehicle as motorcycle, Jeep, Kat. and PE Scout Car (not "Pum-pum" car).
Your reluctance to use American armoured carriers is strange. We actually used it everywhere. Brits have Stuart in the game and OK.
M3 Scout Car as Carrier and БА-64Б as Scout unit are the best.
If historical accuracy isn't hard core then why you don't use player colours on units?

Now you have Т-34-85 what is powerful as the Firefly (AT-tank role), Т-34-76 what is analogue of Sherman (main/medium tank role), СУ-100 (or 85?) what has AT-tank role too, ИСУ-152, ИС-2, КВ-2 what are doctrinal heavy armour vehicles (but for doctrinal, 3 is normal number). And I said about Scout and Carrier role.
So... There are too many AT and no AI-tank like some AA or flame-thrower medium vehicle.
What is about infantry? the Reich had Volksgrenadier divisions, Grenadier divisions and Waffen-SS division => in the game we have Volksgrenadier, Grenadier and Stormtroopers/Knight Cross Squads, it had Panzergrenadier division and we have Panzergrenadier and etc. Why did you create Conscripts, Regulars? The Red Army had (Moto)Rifle and Guardian (Moto)Rifle division. Guardia and Marines (Naval Infantry) (they did more then soviet airdescender) can be good doctrinal infantry squads. Partisans at all didn't have standard ammunition and uniforms. It is not suitable for strategy. And a Command Squad?!! It is copy-past from the DoW!

Last edited August 15, 2009 at 6:36 PM by UeArtemis

UeArtemis wrote:
1. Efreitor
2. Junior Sergeant
3. Sergeant
4. Senior Sergeant
5. Starshina
6. Podpraporshchik
7. Praporshchik
8. Senior Praporshchik
9. Junior Lieutenant
10. Lieutenant
11. Senior Lieutenant
12. Captain
13. Major
14. Podpolkovnik
15. Polkovnik
16. Brigade General
17. General-major
18. General-lieutenant
19. General
20. Marshal

When it comes to finishing off the Ranks, we'll probably use these. I might remake the Rank symbols to look more realistic.

UeArtemis, where would be the fun in creating and playing a faction if it is all identical to Relic's roles?

QuotePartisans at all didn't have standard ammunition and uniforms. It is not suitable for strategy.

Who cares what ammuniton they had? Partisan brigades were 'commandeered' by the Red Army and for good reasons. Besides, they are bloody fun to play in Company of Heroes; ghost armies blowing up buildings and convoys? Suitable strategy which happened in real life.

QuoteAnd a Command Squad?!! It is copy-past from the DoW!

Many RTS games have a 'command squad'. For a reason; it works. And surely, copy-pasting from another game makes for more interesting than copy-pasting from the American faction (one type of regular infantry).

We all know you seem to fancy yourself as some kind of Red Army expert, but anyone with basic knowledge of the British and US armies could pick out more creative licenses that Relic has taken with their versions, whether in structure or appearance.

this is not going to be a perfectly realistic simulation (that is impossible to make given vanillaCoH). i would say lets wait and see how it all fits in the game when its released and than we can discuss all of it for the first update.
by the way: there are many differences between the original armies (usa and wehrmacht) and the ones from OF (brits and PE). trying something new is a good idea. i think most (if not all) people want a new unique faction and not just a reskined copy of any existing faction.

QuoteAnd a Command Squad?!! It is copy-past from the DoW!

WartyX is right about that. and we haven't seen something like that in vanillaCoH yet.

I'm surprised that, as a dev team member, you don't realise the driving point of this mod: not excessive realism, but playable soviet and ostheer factions.

UeArtemis is one of our English/Russian translators, not a full developer.

We decided that translators couldn't play the mod until later on, and they do not take part in actual development. Therefore UeArtemis (and the other translators) only know as much as the community.

Sorry... Play until later on?

Does that mean you guys already have a working alpha?

Of course we have a working alpha, where do you think screenshots and videos come from?

Errr yeah... Stupid question....

:-[