The not so gentle Art of Defencing.

Hi guys,

VCOH PvP play places emphasis is on swift aggressive offence oriented play. No Problemo. After all everybody likes to win quickly so they can get on with it. High level players are generally very good at quick strikes to the Jugular. They do not emphasize the soft/slow approach. DEFENCING is an old martial arts form that concentrates on the Weak overcoming the Strong. The concept may be more familiar to you as the Tortoise and the Hare, (AKA Zeno's Paradox). Rest assured Highlevel players understand the concept well enough. Sim City is based upon defencing. It wasn't a level 6 player that came up with the old exploit of placing a mine on top of an AT mine, another example of defencing.

"What is this dude talking about"? Defencing is all about the Build Ability. Engineers, right? -well sort of. How many of you use the infantry build orders for anything but outposting? VG,G,LW,PG,NI,TH all have Defensive Build orders available some how or another. How many of you use anything but minelaying?

Why don't Strelky have defensive build orders available. Historically the Soviets were famous for throwing up defenses overnight. I think they should. I think PGs should have them too but it will not happen in EF. I have a rewards unit suggestion that could get this ability into EF, the model and animations are done. But it wouldn't be available until after Ostheer is out.

The reason I think, is because the players, (as opposed to compstompers, like me), don't think or talk about it. How many times have you heard it said that bridge maps and other constricted access maps are boring? (Nice solution on Zytomir BTW), In spite of this the Provkurovka? map, (site of the largest tank battle in wwii). keeps having more infantry cover added with each revision. Hell the Commonwealth faction was designed with Sim City in mind. (Well maybe).

I am not going to say anymore about Defencing in this post. My rant has gone on long enough. If there is interest I will be happy to continue the discussion with some solid Defencing tactics. All I would like you to do is think about it and maybe, just maybe mind you play with the concept a little.

Im a little confused (as I always seem to be :S) about your post. You want SU infantry to be more defensive, is that right? Just inquiring

Spread your wisdom oh wise defencer.

Nah, he's trying to prove and explain his point, not demanding/wanting anything :P

In short , you want conscripts to be able to build barbed wire and sandbags ?

Naaah. Sorry to say no . Its part of the game :D The Soviets are already unique in its way . They dont need anything the others have ^^

You should however have credits for a very nice formulated thread! Really proffesionel! :D

Trooper425 wrote:
Spread your wisdom oh wise defencer.

Play nice.


Soviets have multiple units that can lay and build defensive emplacements. I don't see too much of an issue, but remember by default most troops can not construct defenses.

American Riflemen can only make "Defensive" emplacements with doctrinal abilities. They become similar to the engineer function.
Likewise, Panzer Grenadiers can only make "Defensive" emplacements with a specific doctrine. They're limited to Wire and Roadblocks. To construct Mines you'd need to tech to a certain unit.
It is likewise true that the Wehrmacht basic infantry (Volks AND Grens) can make Wire and Sandbags without any sort of doctrinal requirement. While it seems unfair, there are several reasons for this:

• Pioneers are fragile


• The Wehrmacht are much slower to progress


• Wehrmacht squads overall have less men than American squads, whom are designed to counter the Wehrmacht


• The Wehrmacht generally needs to stay at range. Advancing on enemy infantry in cover is not a good idea.

British Tommies can make defensive emplacements, yes. However their faction is based on a defensive playstyle, and you can not recieve a cheap engineer like unit to build wire, sandbags, mines, etc from the get go. 320 manpower for Sappers is not cheap at all. The Emplacement capabilities of the Tommies is a neccesity.

Now we can evaluate the Soviets. Their essential defensive building unit is cheap, always available, fragile but can create the basic needs of the army, similar to the US Engineers or the Wehrmacht Pioneers.

A couple other units can play a role in placing some defensives as well, particularlly Sturmovie and Tank Hunters AT mine. Doctrinally, the OBR becomes a viable option, Partisans can lay mines and nasty traps of their own, and Mechanics can lay down some basic defenses too.

Cranialwizard wrote:

Trooper425 wrote:
Spread your wisdom oh wise defencer.

Play nice.

I was. I was totally honest, I want to hear his tips, 'cause that's how I play.

Hey Sommarkatze, - no I think strelky and NI and engineers/mechanics should have defencing build orders; cs, Gds -no; TH, AT mines are fine. Conscripts no way in hell.  Strafniye - undecided but probably no.

@ Cat Fishy: Sorry my posts are confusing. They are, I know. I never learned to write properly.  :-[ In answer to your question I think all players regardless of faction should be aware and familiar with defencing possibilities. It is not necessary to use it. It is necessary to be able to counter it. Ask your self this question. If you were playing Wehr and your resource production dropped to nil, would you think of activating Manpower Blitz? no answer required.

Another guestion for you-all. Since v1.6 came out how many times have you equipped an Ingenery Squad with mine sweepers? Since I have been "playing" EF I can remember only one time when the AI laid a mine. Flammers for my one builder. All others go Stormovie.

@trooper425: I knew what you meant. 8)

@ Cranial, hi guy: Your viewpoint is always appreciated. Particularly so as regards Amis, CW and RMC -when they show up again. All players should be aware of the capabilities of every faction. I blindside myself too often because I stomp against Sovs not mixed teams. To review your observations:

• Amis rifles can build outposts? defencing.


• PE right on the nut. Unfortunately vCOH too.


• Wehr: small squads and Wehr benefit from the cover defencing can provide. Same argument for PE applies.


• CW: touche.


• Soviets: You missed one that workhorse of the Red army, NI =360 MP sandbag and barbed wire defencing ability. I think Strelky should have it too.


• Easy to forget Mechanics have defencing.


• I missed one: Partizans lay mines? :-[

The topic I would like to address next is channelling enemy movement. THis will take a little while because I need to write it, review it and rewrite it. Don't worry Catfishy It will still end up confusing. ;) :P

No problem ^^. Don't worry your English is fine :P.

I think maybe Strelky can get defensive options with FTML. It wouldn't be so bad TBH. Currently you only get the ability to get 3 additional rifles for 50 muni (not worth it IMO) and an ability that makes you less suppressible IIRC (I could be wrong). So giving Strelky the ability to make sandbags in that ability wouldn't be so bad. Would certainly make FTML more appealing.

I store my conscript knowledge from version to version in a thread called "a subtly Stupid Question" It is current. Feel free to correct any
misconceptions I have. IIRC vet2 gives concripts suppression reduction.

Adding defencing abilities to strelky and/or other units as a perk when "Not one Step Back" is an idea than would make that 1CP expenditure usefull to me.

Cranial I forgot. When you referred to OBR I assumed you were thinking Sim City. The range for OBR is 50? What do you think about a ranging circle showing at time of initial build for OBR and Firebase?

I think the OBR range in 1.6 is 70-80 or something? Pretty much mortar range.

Minesweepers have already been changed for the next patch to not require the Sturmovie research.

FTML is one of the strongest unlocks Soviets have. It breaks and makes you totally immune to suppression for the duration. The rifle upgrade for conscripts adds 3 rifles AND increases the accuracy, which means quite a large improvement.

Soviets don't really need more troops to build defenses. They have quite a few options already and aren't really meant to be building as many defenses as Wehr, for gameplay purposes. They should be aggressive like riflemen.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
FTML is one of the strongest unlocks Soviets have. It breaks and makes you totally immune to suppression for the duration. The rifle upgrade for conscripts adds 3 rifles AND increases the accuracy, which means quite a large improvement.

The accuracy part I did not know. TY for sharing that :D

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Soviets don't really need more troops to build defenses. They have quite a few options already and aren't really meant to be building as many defenses as Wehr, for gameplay purposes. They should be aggressive like riflemen.

Well, this basically. The Soviets are more of an aggressive faction and not a defensive. Yes, aggressive factions can build defenses but not to the extent of the Wehrmacht or British.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
1. I think the OBR range in 1.6 is 70-80 or something? Pretty much mortar range.

Minesweepers have already been changed for the next patch to not require the Sturmovie research.

2. FTML is one of the strongest unlocks Soviets have. It breaks and makes you totally immune to suppression for the duration. The rifle upgrade for conscripts adds 3 rifles AND increases the accuracy, which means quite a large improvement.

3. Soviets don't really need more troops to build defenses. They have quite a few options already and aren't really meant to be building as many defenses as Wehr, for gameplay purposes. They should be aggressive like riflemen.

Cranialwizard wrote:

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Soviets don't really need more troops to build defenses. They have quite a few options already and aren't really meant to be building as many defenses as Wehr, for gameplay purposes. They should be aggressive like riflemen.

4.Well, this basically. The Soviets are more of an aggressive faction and not a defensive. Yes, aggressive factions can build defenses but not to the extent of the Wehrmacht or British.

• Thanx, I think a fixed howitzer base should outrange a mobile mortar squad. This sounds like a balance problem to me. If you agree I can post there.


• Amen to that.


• All the emboldened passages are highly subjective opinions. You are not talking about the Sov Faction here. You are telling people how to play; or perhaps how you play this faction. Your reccommendations on play should not be ignored. But they represent only one opinion as to how the faction should be developed. It is important to recognize the difference.


• Basically the Soviets are an Infantry oriented faction. VCOH is oriented to aggressive play. VCOH factions all contain both offense and defense oriented features. Entire Doctrines reflecting defensive play styles are available to those who choose to use them. It can be argued that CW faction is oriented to defensive play.

I view Defencing as passive/aggressive play style that forces the enemy to come to you  on your terms and allows you to use his Strengths against him. Jujitsu and Fencing use these techniques extensively. Why should players of EF be forced,(compelled)? to do otherwise? EN GARDE!

Certainly you can play them however you want but it doesn't change the fact that Soviets aren't designed to be played very defensively, hence the lack of sandbags on Strelky or no MGs for example. They also have to compete against Axis endgame which is a race against time. It is optimal to play them aggressively, the same as US.

The bolded portion is not opinion but fact. Many faction mechanics reflect the design that Soviets are aggressors and Wehr the defenders, as many games work out. That isn't to say that in each game there isn't defending and attacking by both sides but Wehr is happier when on the defense and Soviets have a lot of design features to make them need to be offensive.

Some examples; high upkeep, low reinforce, lots of SMGs, nades, artillery options, heavy mortars, satchel charges, weaker endgame than Axis etc.

The Soviets are designed to be an offensive force. Historically, they may have been very powerful defensively, but in-game they need to be balanced against the near-turtle Commonwealth forces.

On the historical part, the battle in the east was largely a tug of war. Both sides fell back heavily, then pushed rapidly in counterattack. The only sturdy fortifying was done around major cities (Leningrad, Stalingrad, Sevastopol, Moscow, etc.). To this end, I can understand way the Soviet faction wasn't designed as a fortifying army. Although from what has been released, the Ostheer can be a fortifying army, which would not be my choice between the two. But whatever, I'm not a developer.

Camping armies are boring armies anyway.

Not necessarily. Personally, I like to turtle, and build up something really powerful, like a strike force of 3 or 4 elite squads. Then strike deep, and pull back when needed. It is also interesting to try and counter as efficiently as possible. You can't just spam MGs and AT guns everywhere, you need to find (or create) specific avenues of approach.

Trooper425 wrote:
Not necessarily. Personally, I like to turtle, and build up something really powerful, like a strike force of 3 or 4 elite squads. Then strike deep, and pull back when needed. It is also interesting to try and counter as efficiently as possible. You can't just spam MGs and AT guns everywhere, you need to find (or create) specific avenues of approach.

When I say Camping Armies are Boring Armies, I am referring specifically to the British whom are infamous for Sim Cities with the multitude of emplacements. Furthermore when there is a massive defense force (Like such are buildable on maps with chokepoints like Vire River) that does not constitute fun gameplay for me, just who can spam the most arty.

Or who can invent a creative way to break through, catching the arty-heavy enemy with their pants own. ;)

@Trooper and Cranial: You are both right! although I would use the term tedious rather than boring. As trooper points out camping can be effective. And Cranial's POV is important because vCOH is an action game, Verdun type situations do cause players to lose interest; which would be death to the game/ mod. I believe allowances need to be included for both aggressive and defensive playstyles so that the maximum size player pool can be obtained and maintained for both vCOH and EF. Sadly The AI engine used for compstomps leads to Verdun type situations, but without an AI engine the game wouldn't work very well (or maybe wouldn't work at all). To this end I say make the AI Strong.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
1. Certainly you can play them however you want but it doesn't change the fact that Soviets aren't designed to be played very defensively... 2. It is optimal to play them aggressively, the same as US.

3. The bolded portion is not opinion but fact. Many faction mechanics reflect the design that Soviets are aggressors and Wehr the defenders, as many games work out. That isn't to say that in each game there isn't defending and attacking by both sides but Wehr is happier when on the defense and Soviets have a lot of design features to make them need to be offensive.

4. Some examples; high upkeep, low reinforce, lots of SMGs, nades, artillery options, heavy mortars, satchel charges, weaker endgame than Axis etc.

1. My comments here are not personal criticisms. Dennis knows this. Others need to be aware of my intent. Dennis if what you say is true about the Design Issues, and as a member of the sandbox lot you should know; I think a mistake is being made. The assumption that "Wher is happier when on the defense" needs be considered in light of the fact that Wher was designed as an AI faction. The mindless MGs with their outlandishly wide arcs of fire, purchased vet, and the plethora of off map artillery are examples of AI bias built into Wher. Sure players take advantage of this but I think it colors the Dev Team  into a "Maginot Line" type thinking. It need not be so. In competitive team play one Wher player can ignore T1, initially and concentrate on T3 production. There is presently a minimum two minute window of opportunity that can be extended with Wher production bonuses which can be used by this aggressive Wher team member, (Drool, bite your shield), to spearhead a drive to hurl the Sov faction, - in its present stage of development), to Vladivostok. augmented by a routinely aggressive PE and and canny defensive Wher player I thinks the Sov Faction has a real problem, - in its current stage of development). At present the Sov counter is a passive/soft one. It seems to me that NI is being buffed to address this issue and that is a good start. (BTW I think the Law of Unintended Consequences is going to appear with the new PTRD). Rhetorical question: Are you  comfortable with the current balance between PE and Sov? Enough of what I think.
2. Agreed.
3. See response 1.
4. Building a weaker endgame into a faction design is foolish. The end-game should be left to the Players, (or the clock).I have no problem with building offensive power into the Sov Faction. Maybe the Sovs don't need many defensive abilities. I try to make my defensive ability suggestions low-tech from a design point of view. I am working on alternative Strategies that can be used for what I see as weakness's in the Sov faction at this time. I may be wrong. Hard to say. I have degenerative physical problems that will probably prevent me from ever being a competitive player in any RTS game. (And frankly I spend my energies in this regard so I can continue playing music). But I like to play EF and I want to see EF work.

Q. Stormovie/Ingenery reinforce costs seem low to me. In light of your examples given above that is not an issue. Why, (when?), do the reinforce costs drop from 18 to 15?

I lied in my last post. Think about how and when you can use wire cutter ability in your Defencing thinking.

Last edited April 5, 2012 at 4:53 AM by Otto Halfhand

The PE/USSR balance is not good and is a primary focus of our next patch. NI are actually being very slightly nerfed vs PE. Other changes are being made to help this balance. Against Wehr, the balance is extremely good. Soviets have a very strong endgame for an Allied faction but they still don't hold a candle to Wehr. Purchased vet is the main reason Wehr endgame is so strong because other factions will lose their vet units but Wehr can just make new ones. When I say Wehr endgame is stronger, it's not a huge difference but it only takes a small difference to change the battle completely against evenly matched people. If you don't like it, talk to Relic.

As for Wehr being designed as an AI faction, I disagree. All the factions are designed to be played in any game mode, by and against human opponents. While Wehr CAN be aggressive, as all factions can in many aspects, they are more suited to defending with a heavy emphasis on reaching their endgame, bunkers, heavy weapon crews etc. Even their SMGs are defensively inclined as they have poor moving modifiers. Wehr also has defensively oriented arty, as evident by the short range of the Stuka or the suppressing power of the nebel. They are not as strong at destroying defenses compared to a 105mm. This dynamic of Wehr preferring to hold a defense is what lead to the interesting gameplay of Wehr vs US back when the game was released. It ensured that US players would have to be aggressive to win, therefore there would always be combat. Many balance changes since vCoH 1.0 have emphasised this more and more, like removing double Pershings from armour doctrine. Since there is the need to be aggressive by one side, there is always stuff going on and the game is fun to play rather than just sit and wait for something to happen.

Ingenery reinforce is fine. Sturmovie reinforce should be set to 45mp or something like that. If it's not, it's a bug.

What instrument do you play?

GodlikeDennis wrote:
The PE/USSR balance is not good and is a primary focus of our next patch. NI are actually being very slightly nerfed vs PE. Other changes are being made to help this balance. Against Wehr, the balance is extremely good. Soviets have a very strong endgame for an Allied faction but they still don't hold a candle to Wehr. Purchased vet is the main reason Wehr endgame is so strong because other factions will lose their vet units but Wehr can just make new ones. When I say Wehr endgame is stronger, it's not a huge difference but it only takes a small difference to change the battle completely against evenly matched people. If you don't like it, talk to Relic.

As for Wehr being designed as an AI faction, I disagree. All the factions are designed to be played in any game mode, by and against human opponents. While Wehr CAN be aggressive, as all factions can in many aspects, they are more suited to defending with a heavy emphasis on reaching their endgame, bunkers, heavy weapon crews etc. Even their SMGs are defensively inclined as they have poor moving modifiers. Wehr also has defensively oriented arty, as evident by the short range of the Stuka or the suppressing power of the nebel. They are not as strong at destroying defenses compared to a 105mm. This dynamic of Wehr preferring to hold a defense is what lead to the interesting gameplay of Wehr vs US back when the game was released. It ensured that US players would have to be aggressive to win, therefore there would always be combat. Many balance changes since vCoH 1.0 have emphasised this more and more, like removing double Pershings from armour doctrine. Since there is the need to be aggressive by one side, there is always stuff going on and the game is fun to play rather than just sit and wait for something to happen.

Ingenery reinforce is fine. Sturmovie reinforce should be set to 45mp or something like that. If it's not, it's a bug.

What instrument do you play?

This, to beat a dead horse. Otto, I think you're thinking TOO outside the box.  :-\

A brief point on the "Wer built as naturally defensive, forcing US to be offensive" idea: Did it occur to anyone how CoH was initially released as a game portraying the US' (and by default the Allies') push through France and into Germany? It was designed to portray the Germans at a time when they were defensive. Historically. vCoH is set in a time period when the Axis was on the defensive, and the Allies were advancing. Of course Wer plays defensively, that's the point. We're not playing out the invasion of Poland here, or the Battle of Britain. This is the push into Germany. That's why it is tough to balance Sov against Wer, Wer is portrayed from '44-'45. Sov and Ost are portrayed from '41 - '45, so both need to be offensive and defensive.

+1

One aspect of Defencing concerns directing the enemy's attention elsewhere. Your vanilla engineer is very good at this. Lay some wire across a bridge abutment or across a constricting terrain feature and your opponent will direct around your obstacle. Don't worry your opponent will be back with a vehicle to undo your work sooner or later. Even your AI allies vehicles go out of their way to do this. (sometimes the AI backs up to do this)! :P That of course is the aggressive response. A soft approach is to have your builder cut the wire. They can do this in three different ways:

• cut enemy wire: obvious advantages.


• cut your own wire: good for sorties behind the enemy's lines. Also allows you improve your position when time is available.


• cut the computer's wire (on map wire).

This last tactic is particularly useful on modder produced maps. A good modding mapper is a sneaky bastard worthy of your respect. I am always delighted when I discover a needless anomaly on a map that is just far enough off the beaten path to go unobserved and big enough to park a Funkwagon in. ;) A well designed map also has locations allowing certain units to cap while out of sight and/or while in good cover. I suspect Mystic Car and Maxi, to mention just two are KampfGrupper's at heart.

Builders take 3x damage during construction and repair operations. Other infantry suffer various penalties when operating near wire. (Don't know about vehicles). Cutting on map wire then can give your combat troops a little better cover, (IE remove negative cover penalties), offer swifter movement through choke points, open up otherwise non-accessible areas of the map early in the game, and bugger AI controlled aspects of the game. I can hear the harumphs from the Players now. Simple fact. The AI controls retreat pathing; (or advance pathing when considering the ZIS "Good Humor Truck") By cutting the map wire and strategically placing a piece or two of your own you can nudge the retreat paths towards areas where opportunity fire from mortars or MG nests can inflict additional damage or maybe even cut down a squad. I hope you do set your mortars for indirect fire on choke points when not otherwise engaged.

A lot of this stuff is pretty obvious. The point is that most players are "aggressively" oriented and don't necessarily pay attention to little things that take time to implement. Good Defencing takes advantage of this and tries to take advantage of the AI as well. I do not advocate using Defencing to implements exploits. That is sensless - although frequently fun.

Last edited April 5, 2012 at 1:31 PM by Otto Halfhand

How many sandbags do you build? The comp as well as the AI seem to want to build only one unit of sandbags at a stretch. Is it possible the AI knows something we don't. Anybody know if a single sandbag 1x1 offers more or less cover than say 1x3 or 1x4 sandbags?

I've never seen the AI bud sandbags. But you should build around 4-5 sandbags IMO. Dont wast your time making too many. And put either wire or mines on the opposite side. If a tank tries to run you over: SPLAT. If infantry try to use your cover: SPLAT

Otto wrote:
How many sandbags do you build? The comp as well as the AI seem to want to build only one unit of sandbags at a stretch. Is it possible the AI knows something we don't. Anybody know if a single sandbag 1x1 offers more or less cover than say 1x3 or 1x4 sandbags?

They offer the same cover values, but the longer the wall the easier it is for your troops to use that cover effectively. Building a 1x1 is often done in a rush to protect a Volk squad from a Riflesquad in a house when they can not find sufficient cover at range.

Cranialwizard wrote:
Building a 1x1 is often done in a rush to protect a Volk squad from a Riflesquad in a house when they can not find sufficient cover at range.

Can you explain this ???

Volks are given sandbags because they need to use cover at range to win their engagements. Building sandbags and wire can be a difference of life and death for a Volk, especially when a Rifle takes a house. A rifle will win in the house. (It's actually a tossup, but assuming your volk has no cover and is facing the side with many windows, he will lose) However, if you move to the side of the house with less windows (1-2) and build a sandbag for the green cover, your volks should come out on top.

If you build a sandbag while under fire wont you take x3 damage ???

Yes, but the time it takes to build a sandbag at range against 2 rifles whom can actually fire is definitely worth it if you can't find cover period.

IIRC it takes about 4 seconds to build one :P

Cranialwizard wrote:
They offer the same cover values, but the longer the wall the easier it is for your troops to use that cover effectively. Building a 1x1 is often done in a rush to protect a Volk squad from a Riflesquad in a house when they can not find sufficient cover at range.

I may be wrong here but it seems moving a squad to green cover actually puts the entire squad in green cover. At least that's what color cover is shown for the squad even though individual soldiers may be in the road.
I think the 1x1 sandbag builds the argument for giving Strelky a defencing ability. They are good at medium and long range but at close range PG/AG's rip em up.

Be careful just where your squad is. Even if they stand in front of a wall of sandbags, it will have a green symbol. BUT they will not have the bonus due to direction. Thats why flanking works well. It negates the cover even though the symbol is green.

Green cover is directional and is applied on a person by person basis.

So building a 1x1 of sandbags won't provide cover for more than 2 or 3 of your Volks... I assume the shield icon represents the most common cover value for the unit then.

Trooper425 wrote:
So building a 1x1 of sandbags won't provide cover for more than 2 or 3 of your Volks... I assume the shield icon represents the most common cover value for the unit then.

It presents the avarage amount of soldiers in cover or if more as the half are behind for example a sandbag.