Russian Manpower gains

hey guys!
pretty new to EF and still learnin, to get to the  point... was playin alonga expert CPU who also used the russians, and at then end he had gained double of the total manpower i gained. am i missing somehtin like upgrade or anythin to boost my manpower?

ty

Computer AI gains more MP than a regular player. Many games do this. Why make the AI harder when you can just have it spam more? :P

Hard AI gains 125% more MP, Expert AI gains 150% more MP ;)

Trannyhunterx wrote:
Computer AI gains more MP than a regular player. Many games do this. Why make the AI harder when you can just have it spam more? :P

Hard AI gains 125% more MP, Expert AI gains 150% more MP ;)

aha!that makes sense, but i also  Lan  with  a friend a lot, and german manpower is also always higher then mine! any reason for that?

thnx for the reply :)

It is called Axis Bias


No seriously, American manpower drain is much higher than Axis because it represents reality, and it helps reduce spamming
Same for the Reds

You need to buy a particular upgrade in the armoury to reduce your upkeep.

Killar wrote:
You need to buy a particular upgrade in the armoury to reduce your upkeep.

Your upkeep isn't that bad in the first place. But the upgrade does help.

I think Allies might lose MP rate faster. But Allies have the ability to get MP upgrades while Axis don't. Once their MP sink to a depressing level, it stays there till your units die :P.

IMO Brits gain MP the fastest simply cause they don't have that many units on the field.

My understanding of manpower drain is sketchy. I understand the decrease in MP gain is mostly a function of the number of units on the field. I believe there is also a drain associated with the increasing elapsed time in game? I am in the dark concerning the modifiers applied to different units in this regard. The v1.6 Changelog indicates Partizan MP drain was increased to 1.4/min. THat is the extent of my knowledge on this subject. Can you'all enlighten me further?

Just what does the "extra reserves" upgrade in the Armory actually do? I know we lobbied for it long, hard, and successfully for it, and that with the advent of v1.6 the Design Team even Doubled Down. Somebody please "let the cat out of the bag"; so we know if we "bought a pig in the poke" or not.

QuoteJust what does the "extra reserves" upgrade in the Armory actually do?

As far as i know, it gives modifier to players manpower upkeep by multiplying it with 0.7, i guess it reduces upkeep by 30%. It reminds me on supply yard upgrades but in supply yard one of upgrades is 0.75 multiply or 25%.
Experts correct me if am wrong.

Last edited April 3, 2012 at 3:40 PM by jojorabbit

@jojorabbit
You are right :).

In CoH, your MP is a function of:

270/min + (3/min/point) - upkeep

Your upkeep is quite significant depending on your faction. For example, US riflemen have around 14MP/min upkeep. This means, if you haven't captured a single point yet, your MP will reduce to 256MP/min. This will add up quite a bit once you get a large army, especially of US or Soviet troops who have higher upkeep. Therefore, it's important to get upkeep reductions like the US supply yard and upgrades, armoury and upgrade, and CS veterancy. This will mean you have more MP to play with throughout the game.

The way upkeep is actually calculated is on a per-entity basis. Resources are updated every 1/8th of a second. A single rifleman has 0.005 upkeep. There are 6 in a squad. Upkeep is evaluated 480 times in one minute. So calculated upkeep means:

0.005 x 6 x 480 = 14.4MP/min upkeep

Losing entities from the squad will mean lower upkeep. It's part of the reason why US and Soviets need to be more aggressive than other factions. By being in combat constantly, they can reduce the amount of upkeep they pay considerably.

Dennis, I'm interested to know the upkeep for Grenadiers, if you would be so kind.

Quote I'm interested to know the upkeep for Grenadiers

Granadier upkeep value 0.0028 x 8 (ticks) x 4(man in squad) x 60 (seconds) =  5.376 mp/min

Comparing to rifleman 14.4 mp/min
- with 1st supply yard upgrade -> 14.4 x 0.75 = 10.8 mp/min
- with 2nd supply yard upgrade -> 10.8 x0.75 = 8.1 mp/min

With upgrades it is kinda equal if there were 6 granadiers in squad upkeep would be 8.064.

Hope it helps.

Last edited April 4, 2012 at 12:17 PM by jojorabbit

I think you mean 5.376?

QuoteI think you mean 5.376?

Yes accidentally typed comma now it is corrected :)

GodlikeDennis wrote:
In CoH, your MP is a function of:

270/min + (3/min/point) - upkeep

The way upkeep is actually calculated is on a per-entity basis. Resources are updated every 1/8th of a second. A single rifleman has 0.005 upkeep. There are 6 in a squad. Upkeep is evaluated 480 times in one minute. So calculated upkeep means:

0.005 x 6 x 480 = 14.4MP/min upkeep

Losing entities from the squad will mean lower upkeep. It's part of the reason why US and Soviets need to be more aggressive than other factions. By being in combat constantly, they can reduce the amount of upkeep they pay considerably.

1. The v1.6 changelog indicates Partizan upkeep is set at 1.4/min. is this per squad or per man?


2. Isn't there a small adjustment to the MP gain rate for each muni point and FP you contol as well?


3. What is the muni Upkeep rate for Stormovie in v1.6? (Both in /tick and /min rates please).

jojorabbit wrote:

QuoteJust what does the "extra reserves" upgrade in the Armory actually do?

As far as i know, it gives modifier to players manpower upkeep by multiplying it with 0.7, i guess it reduces upkeep by 30%....

To put this in perspective, (If I understand correctly), assuming you have a 270 MP gain rate,  ;) at the instant the "weapons reserve" upgrade activates, your gain rate in the next tick would jump to ~385 MP gain rate.

Last edited April 4, 2012 at 3:03 PM by Otto Halfhand

No, it only reduces the upkeep part. So it for example, MP income = 270(base) + 18 (you have 6 points captured on the map) - [50 (upkeep) x 0.7(reduction from upgrade)] = 253

Partisan:
0.002916mp/tick = ~1.4mp/min/man = ~7mp/min/full squad

Sturmovie:
0.0083mp/tick = 3.984mp/min/man = 15.936mp/min/full squad

0.0018mu/tick = 0.864mu/min/man = 3.456mu/min/full squad

Partisan upkeep 0.002916 x 8 (ticks) x 60(seconds) = 1.39968 mp/min rounded to 1.4
they have 5 man in squad = 1.39968 * 5 = 6.9984 -> rounded to 7


A1: It is per man 1.39968 mp/min
A3: I think there is no muni update am not sure.

Q1: Partisans take 5 population but in the description of ability it says 6 even if they take 5 is that bug or?

QuoteTo put this in perspective, (If I understand correctly), assuming you have a 270 MP gain rate,  at the instant the "weapons reserve" upgrade activates, your gain rate in the next tick would jump to ~385 MP gain rate.

I did a little test for you. Test was made without any captured points.
Here are results:

Starting manpower: 270 mp/min
After deploying 1st partisan squad manpower income : 263 mp/min or 270 - 7 upkeep from partisan (1 squad)
After deploying 2nd partisan squad manpower income: 256 mp/min or 270 - 7x2 upkeep from partisan (2 squads)
After deploying 3rd partisan squad manpower income: 249 mp/min or 270 - 7x3 upkeep from partisan (3 squads)

Building Armory manpower income: 251 mp/min gives +3 why? -> Armory reduces 10% upkeep or multiply by 0.9
So 270 - 7x3 x 0.9 (armory) = 270 - 21 x 0.9 = 270 - 18.9 (round to 19) = 251 mp/min

Weapon reserve upgrade manpower income 258 mp/min

If you take starting mp 270 - 3(squads) x  7(partisan squad upkeep) x 0.70 (weapon reserve upgrade)
= 270 - 3 x 4.9 (partisan upkeep after weapon reserve upgrade)
= 270 - 14.69664 (rounded to 15)

makes current income : 255 + those 3 that i mentioned up there for armory = exactly 258 mp/min

Last edited April 4, 2012 at 4:56 PM by jojorabbit

The armoury itself grants a small (10%?) reduction in upkeep as well. Additionally, the CS reduces upkeep as it vets. These are the 3 ways Soviets can mitigate their upkeep.

Last edited April 4, 2012 at 4:44 PM by GodlikeDennis

Tnx.
Ye it is true did not saw that, it also has some munition upkeep reduce like 2% why that?

Q: What if I build 2-3-4 armory buildings? Every building will add 10% right?

Post corrected.

Last edited April 4, 2012 at 6:18 PM by jojorabbit

GodlikeDennis wrote:
The armoury itself grants a small (10%?) reduction in upkeep as well. Additionally, the CS reduces upkeep as it vets. These are the 3 ways Soviets can mitigate their upkeep.

• Are the armory plus "weapons reserves" upgrade bonuses additive or multiplicative? IE 1.0-( .1 .3)=.6 or .9*.7=.63


• Does the CS bonus effect all units or just infantry? BTW this bonus is not documented in changelog v1.6.


• Do conscripts have an MP upkeep costs?


• @Rizz please consider adding required EXP/vet level for all units where vet is cited in changelog.

jojorabbit wrote:
...Q: What if I build 2-3-4 armory buildings? Every building will add 10% right? ...

I like the way you think but suspect if it is true it will soon go away. It is an exploit.
BTW If you accidentally or purposely build multiple T2/T3 the game engine may not recognize you have built the various upgrades. Meaning no firebase and /or IS2. I don't know if this condition applies after you have unlocked all options and build say a second T2.

Last edited April 5, 2012 at 2:10 AM by Otto Halfhand

• Are the armory plus "weapons reserves" upgrade bonuses additive or multiplicative? IE 1.0-( .1 .3)=.6 or .9*.7=.63

I think they are multiplicative not 100% sure.

• Does the CS bonus effect all units or just infantry? BTW this bonus is not documented in changelog v1.6.

If you mean CS upkeep bonus then i think it affects all.
CS on each vet level gives 0.88 multiplication or 12%.

IMO on vet 3 CS gives 0.681 multiplication or 32%. Well not so easy to achieve a lot of fighting, and never lose CS.
Reminds on 2nd supply yard upgrade where you need 140 fuel.

• Do conscripts have an MP upkeep costs?

Conscripts and inginery do not have upkeep costs.
But when Ingenery are Sturmovie Ingenery (i mean equipped with assault gear) then they have upkeep:
manpower: 0.0083 and munition 0.0018

Quote I like the way you think but suspect if it is true it will soon go away. It is an exploit.
BTW If you accidentally or purposely build multiple T2/T3 the game engine may not recognize you have built the various upgrades. Meaning no firebase and /or IS2. I don't know if this condition applies after you have unlocked all options and build say a second T2.

I also think it will go away :)

Ok so for the soviets we have different ways to reduce upkeep.

1. Build Armory reduces it by 10%
2. Upgrade Weapons reserves reduces it by 30%
3. Fight with Command Squad to get vet each vet lvl gets 12%

Experts correct me if am wrong.

Last edited April 5, 2012 at 12:50 PM by jojorabbit

Yes, that's correct. I thought there were additive though.

US supply yard gives 25% reduction for the building itself, and 25% for each upgrade. Should work out to be fairly similar to the Soviet reductions.

Am not sure they are additive, maybe this could help.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?144512-1.51-Production-upgrade&p=2251103#post2251103

jojorabbit wrote:
Am not sure they are additive, maybe this could help.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?144512-1.51-Production-upgrade&p=2251103#post2251103

The cited post indicates Supply yard bonuses are multiplicative. IE you get a smaller bonus than you appear to get from the raw numbers.

Link in my last post refers to old stuff.

I forgot to say that there is upkeep threshold for each faction.

So:
American: 6
Wehrmacht: 14
British: 12
Panzer Elite: 12
Soviet: 6

That means if you playing as american, you won't receive any upkeep penalty for first 6 population.

Another test:

1x starting eng (3 pop) -> no pop 6 so no upkeep.

Rifleman upkeep: 2.4 mp/min (man) whole squad 14.4 mp/min ~ 15 mp/min



Starting manpower: 270 mp/min
Deploying one eng so we have 6 pop.

After deploying 1st rifleman squad manpower income : 255 mp/min
or 270 - 14.4 upkeep from rifleman (1 squad) = 255,6 mp/min ~ 255 mp/min (it would be exactly 255 if 14.14 ~ 15)

After deploying 2nd rifleman squad manpower income: 241 mp/min
or 270 - 14.4x2 upkeep from rifleman (2 squads) = 241,2 mp ~ 241 mp/min

After deploying 3rd rifleman squad manpower income: 226 mp/min
or 270 - 14.4x3 upkeep from rifleman (3 squads) = 226.8 mp/min ~ 226 mp/min

We have 2 engy(3 pop) and 3 rifleman(6 pop) = 3x2 + 6x3 = 6 + 18 = 24 pop

So we are losing 14.4 x 3 mp for upkeep = 43.2 mp/min 
and we have income 270 - 43.2 = 226.7 ~ 226 mp/min

Building supply yard manpower income: 237 mp/min
now we are losing : 43.2 x 0.75 = 32.4 and income is 270 - 35 = 237.6 ~ 237 mp/min

1st supply yard upgrade manpower income: 246 mp/min
now we are losing 43.2 x 0.54375 = 23.49 and income is 270 - 23.49 = 246.51 ~ 246 mp/min

2nd supply yard upgrade manpower income: 255 mp/min
now we are losing 43.2 x 0.32625 = 14.094 = 255.906 ~ 255 mp/min


Another calculation:
3 x rifleman -> 14.4 mp/min but with all upgrades 4.698 mp/min upkeep per 1 rifleman squad.


Supply Yard benefits can be checked http://companyofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Supply_Yard.

Last edited April 5, 2012 at 6:00 PM by jojorabbit

Does the Zis ambulance contribute to the MP upkeep burden?

It occurs to me that delaying the Arrival of CS can improve early production:

• when the CS arrives you a 1 pt. away from the upkeep threshold. The next non Ing/conscript unit you deploy will start the MP upkeep drain. A CS costs ~ the same as an ING and Conscript combined and takes much longer to produce. Thus you can have twice as many cappers on the field up front.


• THe CS is a priority target. Reinforce - 35? Ing reinforce - 18? Conscript reinforce - 17?


• The CS really starts picking up vet only after upgraded to PPS. which IIRC requires 160 FP. 160-35=125 FP. At 25 FP/min average early gain 5 min. of MP (270-255)*5=75MP plus any savings accrued from reinforce savings.


• What is the CS upkeep burden and the Sniper upkeep Burden?


• Its a trade-off but perhaps worth considering.

QuoteDoes the Zis ambulance contribute to the MP upkeep burden?

Yes Zis ambulance upkeep value is 0.015 or 7.2 mp/min

As by Unit list here: http://easternfront.org/?p=units&name=Ingenery
CS - reinforce : 34
Ing - reinforce: 19
Conscript - reinforce: 18

If link refers to old version tell me so i can check values.

I wrote a little macro for upkeep few weeks ago here is soviet infantry

Sniper Ace (0.020833 mp upkeep)
Sharshooter (0.015 mp upkeep)
Guards (0.0083 mp upkeep)
Sturmovie Inginery (0.0083 mp upkeep 0.0018 mun upkeep)
Naval Infantry (0.005 mp upkeep)
Command Squad (0.0042 mp upkeep)
Tank Hunters (0.0042 mp upkeep)
Strelky (0.003mp upkeep)
Partisans (0.002916 mp upkeep)
Mortar (0.002604 mp upkeep)
Mehanics (0.002083 mp upkeep)
Inginery (0 mp upkeep)
Conscripts (0 mp upkeep)

Rest is easy to calculate :).
Hope it helps.

Does the construction of the Armory, its upgrade or arrival of the CS have any effect on muni and FP gain rates or burden?

ZiS-5 upkeep was removed for the next patch. No other med station has upkeep, so it shouldn't either.

The upkeep reductions only affect MP income.

In other words with only 3 rifle squads on the map (45*.7=31.5) your initial 100 MP investment in "reserve weapons" will repay itself in ~3 minutes. 30% rate of return on investment.  8)

when you play with an AI tammate look at the numbers after the game. Compare munitions (unless youre brit with that upgrade) that is, count 1/100 of your total income, then use your ally´s total number (divide by your 1% number) to get the percentage. Your manpower upkeep will be different so you cant compare it.

I posted in in another thread as well and manpower and munitions bonus on hard are 150%, while on expert it looked like 180 or so

so no 125 and 150. 150 is on hard already

Last edited April 15, 2012 at 12:56 PM by TomaSkTemplar