Guards 1.6

So, I've been wondering for a while; why go through the trouble of giving the Guards Sergeant a Mosin-Nagant with SVT40 aestetics, rather then a full-on SVT40? Is there a balance issue that would arise from doing so? Also, as of now, RBS seem to be much more of a go-to option; Guards seem to have drifted into lockstep with KCH as high tiered elite infantry that are fantastic at what they do, but almost too much of a pain to be worth gunning for. Thoughts?

Also, can someone post the stats of the different soviet weapons;

Damage
Cooldown(s) at S/M/L
Accuracy at S/M/L

those being the Ingenery Mosin, Conscript Mosin, Strelok Mosin, Guards Mosin, Guards SVT-mosin, and the SVT40 (and possibly the DP-28, PPs-43, and PPSh-41). I'm just looking for a rough comparison against the other rifles in the game, and without a finished stats page its hard to come up with the numbers myself since my corsix is borked. Many thanks in advance.

Most infantry in the game get a squad leader weapon that just looks like an advanced weapon but is statistically the same as the others. Guards aren't really supposed to be spammable like they were in the past. Strelky are supposed to make up the bulk of your infantry forces. I feel like we nailed guards perfectly in the last couple patches. They are used as an elite infantry to flank and break a specific part of an enemy line before the rest of the blob rolls in.

As for the weapon stats, that will take ages to do. I might feel generous tomorrow. For now I can do the damages from memory.

Ing 7
Cons 9
Strelky 12
Guards 12
Sharpshooters 12
TH mosin 8
SVT 12
NI SVT 10 (M1 Garand)
DP-28  8 (identical to bren stats but 8 dmg instead of 5)
PPS-43  5 (identical to MP40)
PPSh 5 (very similar to MP40)

Generally, Soviet bolt action rifles are a mix of Wehr and US weapons. They're not as good as Wehr at long range but not as good as US at short range. They're just fairly decent at all ranges. The Guard SVT is very good on the move and at short range though. It's an assault weapon that can still be OK at long range. Very powerful indeed.

Last edited February 20, 2012 at 3:57 PM by GodlikeDennis

Thankee.

Naval's SVT is exact copy of M1 Garand?

cephalos wrote:
Naval's SVT is exact copy of M1 Garand?

Not exact... atm it's shooting like a bolt action rifle. Will be fixed in the future.

GodlikeDennis wrote:
...Guards aren't really supposed to be spammable like they were in the past.....

Oh really? LOL (no offense intended) but I spammed guards in a lovely 2v2 (maxiking was in it) and ofc, the whole time my team was losing but I made like 4 Shock Guards and they all had SVT-40 package and I kept making more guards. With a munition reserve, an AT gun, and a double PTRD naval squad, I spammed KraK grenades and took out panthers and Tigers (lol). The Guards also continually annihilated MP44 and Gewehr PG blobs twice their size with some help of grenades but mostly the SVT-40s and DPs. ;D All of them hit Vet 3. Sadly, I ran out of munitions and was on cooldown too often when Tigers and panthers finally stormed my base but MAN those guards were sweet.

Also, in general, I feel that the PPS-43 upgrade for Shock Guards contradicts the use of the DP-28 because LMGs (IIRC) can't fire on the move which kind of means you can't exactly push the enemy out as fast as you may like. IMO SVT-40s synergize much better with DPs.

bopokippo wrote:
Also, in general, I feel that the PPS-43 upgrade for Shock Guards contradicts the use of the DP-28 because LMGs (IIRC) can't fire on the move which kind of means you can't exactly push the enemy out as fast as you may like. IMO SVT-40s synergize much better with DPs.

Guard DP-28 can fire on the move.

ah kk thx. I must've been thinking of wehr LMGs >_<

Cranialwizard wrote:

bopokippo wrote:
Also, in general, I feel that the PPS-43 upgrade for Shock Guards contradicts the use of the DP-28 because LMGs (IIRC) can't fire on the move which kind of means you can't exactly push the enemy out as fast as you may like. IMO SVT-40s synergize much better with DPs.

Guard DP-28 can fire on the move.

yeah I can confirm

Ah yes, I rememeber that game :P. Me, Bopokippo, SublimeGlimz, and MaxiKing all played a 2v2 on Kursk. Unfortunatley he is telling the truth in that all he (sorta) did was spam Guard squads and for a while it was working. I think the only reason we lost was due to VPs (I think it was 1-150, something like that). The Veted Grens and AI cars (pumas and AC) hurt him but sadly, it didnt fully "counter" him. Maxi was growing slightly fustrated by the fact his MP44 Grens with upgrades were all dying (lol?). I kinda agree that Guards are pretty powerful vs PE as they shread through PGs squads like nothing.

also, what infantry type are guards?

Elite IIRC

Any elite infantry can still be blobbed. You will find larger blobs of Rangers/Airborne/KCH in some games. Guards will drain you faster than standard infantry though. If the enemy counters you correctly, you will lose a LOT of manpower through reinforcing and upkeep.

I guess so. Btw fish, where'd you get the info on infantry types???

bopokippo wrote:
I guess so. Btw fish, where'd you get the info on infantry types???

Me? What info did I provide? If you mean the infantry armor then I sorta just remembered it ;)

Wait there's a way to see infantry types of units in-game? ???

How does a fully upgraded guard scale to KCHs?

Guards are better and have more utility than KCH. They're much more vulnerable to Snipers though.

Guards usage of range also varies with its upgrades while KCH are only badass at close range.
Guard vet is also more powerful but the both of them are real powerhouses at such a late stage in the game.

Against guards you should be using a combination of multiple weapons but snipers really help since it takes 4 shots to eliminate and they will never missB

Or you could use Light AT halftrack.

KCH are also hard to suppress at vet 3.

Walki wrote:
KCH are also hard to suppress at vet 3.

Suprression at vet3 is 0

I think it takes 2 or 3 sniper shots to kill a KCH at vet 3 ???

Cranialwizard wrote:
KCH are only badass at close range.

Yeah they had this video where the pitted 20 unvetted riflemen and 20 unvetted KCH at long range. The riflemen easily won :P

Killar wrote:

Walki wrote:
KCH are also hard to suppress at vet 3.

Suprression at vet3 is 0

I'm quiet sure that they can be suppressed.

KCH can. Guards can't.

Yes but I think you need up to 3 USA mgs to suppress KCH.

all i know is that at vet lvl 3 those guys are a nuciance. it almost takes a strfing run to supress them.

I have a replay where a PPSH guard squard takes down 4x 4man mp44 squards where serveral of them were vet 3 deff. Theres also a instance where the guards finish off a halftrack from longrage sniper style just penetrating the hell outta a Mortar halftrack and AC. You will see it in one of the next Sublime Shoutcasts.

so does PE have a hard counter to these?  the PE match-up against Russia between me and my friend has felt pretty good...first I had to figure out how to deal with fast sturm-ingenery, but now my friend has started trotting out these fleshless machines that don't bleed and know no fear, at about mid-game.  AC's are particularly bad against them, The PE infantry would still have a hard time if the necessary blobs needed to kill guards weren't also trying to dodge grenades...(and likely command squad arty)

I figure I'm left with p4 as a viable counter. maybe a lucky goliath.  do incendiaries do more damage to guards?  I guess mortars will help, but once I can't hold a line against russia's advance it gets hard to keep these safe against complimentary tank hunter spam


....I missed the comment about using an at halftrack....with the sniper ability on that is it 1 shot 1 kill against guards?  if so that might be worth trying.

Last edited February 21, 2012 at 6:44 PM by Joshua9

Joshua9 wrote:
so does PE have a hard counter to these?  the PE match-up against Russia between me and my friend has felt pretty good...first I had to figure out how to deal with fast sturm-ingenery, but now my friend has started trotting out these fleshless machines that don't bleed and know no fear, at about mid-game.  AC's are particularly bad against them, The PE infantry would still have a hard time if the necessary blobs needed to kill guards weren't also trying to dodge grenades...(and likely command squad arty)

I figure I'm left with p4 as a viable counter. maybe a lucky goliath.  do incendiaries do more damage to guards?  I guess mortars will help, but once I can't hold a line against russia's advance it gets hard to keep these safe against complimentary tank hunter spam

Wehr has snipers as a potential counter, or they can use vet 3 LMG grens to hold the fort.  Grens will still lose, but they cost less reenforce, so its still OK.  KCH are still shit, but that's vCoH 2.602's problem, not EF 1.6's.  In fact, the Guards are perfectly balanced versus Wehr right now.

PE only has PGs on the other hand, and they get shafted hard.  Both are about 45 reenforce, but Guards always have the initiative.  They have MUCH better grenades, and PPS-43s are stronger than MP44s when stationary actually.  They also have DPs, so your MP44s must make the charge or lose at long range, and when they make the charge, the PPS-43s are at their strongest.

Sure you can use vehicles, but if he has AT guns that you need to clear out with PGs before vehicles can roll in, you're fucked if he has Guards guarding them.  G43 PGs also seem to get raped hard versus SVT Guards.

The balance in the current patch is great, and the balancers that worked on the patch did an awesome job.  They probably just overlooked this one slight mis-balance.  Their weapons probably just need a slight nerf versus PG soldier armor and its all good again.  As Snugz said, watch the upcoming Sublime shoutcast and you will see.

Last edited February 21, 2012 at 7:13 PM by Yauz

@Joshua9: Yes, the Focus Fire ability that the ATHT has is 1 shot 1 kill. It will just about 1 shot 1 kill any infantry, making it a sorta funny counter to snipers :P. If you have 2 ATHT you can easily decimate a Guard squad but its expensive (100 muni?). And I think they will hit them on the retreat too ;D.

I did notice one funny thing while playing NHC though, Vet 3 riflemen with BARs dominate guards with SVT 40s with DP.

well, you dont have to balance allies vs allies, so thats just the way it is. ;)

But still, SU vs US matchup is extremely well balanced. Just beautiful.

Hey, I just noticed SU is US spelt backwards. ;D

QuoteHey, I just noticed SU is US spelt backwards.  ;D

jk man, but still, you could have kept that one to yourself. ;)

stealthattack1 wrote:

QuoteHey, I just noticed SU is US spelt backwards.  ;D

jk man, but still, you could have kept that one to yourself. ;)

Rofl. Just what I thought.
I assure you that we keep an eye on the Guards' performance, and if we think it's necessary we'll fine tune tune them.

Greetings

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Most infantry in the game get a squad leader weapon that just looks like an advanced weapon but is statistically the same as the others. Guards aren't really supposed to be spammable like they were in the past. Strelky are supposed to make up the bulk of your infantry forces. I feel like we nailed guards perfectly in the last couple patches. They are used as an elite infantry to flank and break a specific part of an enemy line before the rest of the blob rolls in.

As for the weapon stats, that will take ages to do. I might feel generous tomorrow. For now I can do the damages from memory.

Ing 7
Cons 9
Strelky 12
Guards 12
Sharpshooters 12
TH mosin 8
SVT 12
NI SVT 10 (M1 Garand)
DP-28  8 (identical to bren stats but 8 dmg instead of 5)
PPS-43  5 (identical to MP40)
PPSh 5 (very similar to MP40)

Generally, Soviet bolt action rifles are a mix of Wehr and US weapons. They're not as good as Wehr at long range but not as good as US at short range. They're just fairly decent at all ranges. The Guard SVT is very good on the move and at short range though. It's an assault weapon that can still be OK at long range. Very powerful indeed.

Guards aren't supposed to be your go-to infantry once they are unlocked?

vikingsteve wrote:

GodlikeDennis wrote:
Most infantry in the game get a squad leader weapon that just looks like an advanced weapon but is statistically the same as the others. Guards aren't really supposed to be spammable like they were in the past. Strelky are supposed to make up the bulk of your infantry forces. I feel like we nailed guards perfectly in the last couple patches. They are used as an elite infantry to flank and break a specific part of an enemy line before the rest of the blob rolls in.

As for the weapon stats, that will take ages to do. I might feel generous tomorrow. For now I can do the damages from memory.

Ing 7
Cons 9
Strelky 12
Guards 12
Sharpshooters 12
TH mosin 8
SVT 12
NI SVT 10 (M1 Garand)
DP-28  8 (identical to bren stats but 8 dmg instead of 5)
PPS-43  5 (identical to MP40)
PPSh 5 (very similar to MP40)

Generally, Soviet bolt action rifles are a mix of Wehr and US weapons. They're not as good as Wehr at long range but not as good as US at short range. They're just fairly decent at all ranges. The Guard SVT is very good on the move and at short range though. It's an assault weapon that can still be OK at long range. Very powerful indeed.

Guards aren't supposed to be your go-to infantry once they are unlocked?

Are KCH your main army once you unlock them?

good point i typically use the top tier infantry to bolster the strength of the lower tier squads rather than relying on them as the primary infantry force. Something that command and conquer games are notorious for leading to

Yes, replacing conscripts with Tesla troopers is pretty funny though.

"AC/DC"


Back on topic, how effective are guards against armor, stalling them that is.

The antitank nade is excellent IF the vehicle is on its lonesome, otherwise I don't bother attacking many.

Two or three squads however, with alternating throws can take down almost anything (IMO), and I suppose the squad themselves can soak a lot of damage when needed, but the manpower costs ya

Its devastating to PE armor, even to its more heavy tanks like Panzer IV IST. And even if you back up the blast damage will still do a number on the vehicle. 2-3 of them will just vaporize a PE HT or AC.