Soviet Openings are too Weak

So basically, there a few things I am mainly trying to outline here. If you would like to respectfully disagree, then by all means do so, but in a clean and respectful manner. So 1. is the lack of general diverse openings for the soviets. Wehr, even with just a Wehrmacht Quarters can build 4 different units right off the bat allowing for huge combinations and they can "skip" tiers (e.g., go straight to pumas after wehr quarters). PE can choose between 3 options in the beginning. Logistic, Kampfgruppe, or defensive operations and incendiary nades into the eventual logistic or kampfgruppe. After getting a logistic or kampfgruppe (which are CHEAP structures), they can choose to build another reasonably cheap structure, the support or jager command. Both the support and jager, while requiring an upgrade to unlock certain units, both have two good and useful things right off the bat. Americans can start with rax, then go to WSC, fast BARs, fast motor pool, WSC--Rax--Tank Depot, etc. Brits are kind of linear in a sense, but nonetheless, they have 3 useful units from the starting command truck and can choose to do a wide variety of things with their infantry sections and bren carriers( vickers mmgs, emplacement turtling, get sappers for more turtling, Stuarts), and all cost reasonable amounts of fuel.

For the soviets, the only economical thing is a Red Army Mustering Tent first, then a command squad as soon as it finishes and maybe a conscript squad. Conscripts are really lack-luster in the core infantry role, so as one holds the line with them, they must save up for the fuel required in a support barracks upgrade. Then, for 35 fuel and I believe 120 manpower, you get TWO units to build. Basically, in early-mid game situations, I find you kind of get stuck with 2 support units to bolster a force of strelky whereas Americans can get WSC for 15 fuel and have 3 support units and PE can get infantry and mortar halftracks as well as, with upgrades, tankbusters and advanced repair AND field craft. A logistic gives muni halftrack, scout car, and vampire, all of which (especially the muni for mine laying) have good uses for the structural cost of 20 FUEL. Now, basically, to stand your ground, (at least when I played), I found out that I needed to get Red Banner Strelky ASAP and get DP-28s so there's some more fuel used for Strelky upgrades. Then, another side point. The ZiS support gun (as evidenced by another topic) costs more than the American AT gun, but does less damage and even when upgraded for a hefty fuel cost is still just below even with it and, although the Hull-Down can be situationally useful, the cost of the ZiS support gun and an upgrade necessitated for that hull-down ability for me does not outweigh the benefits. With 290 manpower, it should do slightly less damage than the m1 57mm and have the hull-down with a very cheap upgrade. The cloaked PaK 38s are a heck of a lot better if you ask me.

Then come the Tank-Hunters. They are virtually useless without men-against tanks (yet another fuel drain) as their mosins do pitiful damage and the PTRD has an extremely low shot:damage ratio and even though it fires fast, it has low damage and a severe lack of penetrating power against tanks. There is no bazooka or schrek type infantry for the soviets which makes sense because they never had such weapons, but the stopgap for a powerful AT infantry force that can deal damage to things like panthers and tigers without the need to spam AT grenades leaves something to be desired in tank-hunters. Even against the rear, a tiger deflected about 7 PTRD shots before blowing up (Naval Infantry PTRDs).

Now, with the BASE tank hall, you are spending (IIRC) 200 manpower and 55 fuel for nothing. Just for the possibility to get an upgrade. Both upgrades are fuel heavy (yet another huge fuel drain) and the units that come out aren't exactly fuel cheap either. The "light" tankovy is 55 fuel for some units that, by the time they come out (T-90, T-70) are anachronisms. The SU-76 is good, but the T-90 is just a slower Puma that has trouble kiting and responding to threats as well as escaping from them. The T-70 fits a light AT role and its decent at that but as always, by the time a T-70 is out, the enemy can easily have StuGs or tons of schreks. Its fragility makes me wonder about the investment of the Light-Tankovy. If it could come a little earlier, maybe it would work.

Now, the Heavy Tankkovy is hugely fuel consumptive (combined with the base 55 fuel of the tank hall) with another 80 FUEL and even more without a support barracks upgrade (tack on another 25 fuel without it but really you should get the support barracks upgrade so just add 35 fuel) and all that fuel spent just to be able to buy an 80 fuel unit. The 85mm gun upgrade is 60 fuel and it makes the cost of the newer tanks extremely expensive. And, T-34s and KV-1s aren't exactly shermans or Panzer IVs when it comes to mowing infantry and aren't nearly as accurate as one may expect. The closest thing that comes to this in relative fuel needs is the Americans but Shermans and M8s really have a great "shock" value when they hit the field because they are great against infantry and light vehicles with the added fact that they are very mobile. The only way I've been able to hold my own as Soviet Union is with the fastest possible (as said before) Red Banner Strelky to give myself some decent footing against Panzer Grenadiers with G43s and Grenadiers or Volks with MP40s. Then I desperately try to hold fuel points for support barracks upgrades and then, I try a light-tankkovy after saving loads of fuel only to have my t-70 or t-90 be practically useless to the large amounts of fielded AT by the time they arrive.

TLDR: Too much fuel for teching and the tech path is too linear as the penalties and requirements of many things basically dictate
Red Army Mustering Tent------------Soviet Support Barracks----------------Tank Hall

Leading to predictable/stale play. The options branch out later on, but initially it feels repetitive and easy to counter.



EDIT:

This is all I'm going to put forth right now, Red Army Mustering Tent shouldn't cost 35 fuel, it should cost around 20ish. I understand that the 35 starting fuel and 35 fuel cost of the Red Army Mustering Tent is to maybe allow a support barracks first build but I find that it leaves you vulnerable (very) until you can get out Sturmovie or the additional fuel for a Red Army Mustering Tent in which, an enemy can exploit that timing window where you have no core infantry (strelky). In high resource games, the immediate Strelky, Command Squad, and Sniper combo is too good, so I think that the Red Army mustering Tent should cost 20 fuel, allowing for a choice between molotovs (which ties up conscript production a lot early game) or saving a little bit more for a delayed mortar or sniper. Also, I think soviets should start with 20 munitions, 0 seems a bit low for me. Late game I think they are fine, but too often for me, I get pushed around early game so my late game has no momentum to pick back up,.

Last edited February 19, 2012 at 11:29 PM by bopokippo

like you mentioned earlier, i respect fully disagree. yes, you do have to build the mustering tent, but youre wrong, you can skip the support barracks. also, the brits teching order is un-negotiable, because of their captains and stuff. also, the heavy tech requirements are not too heavy. +, if the soviets are balanced,(which i belive they are(good job to the balance team)) why do we care about fuel costs?

I think you're the one whom is thinking too linear. Are you playing a computer match? This is what it sounds like.

You can build either the support barracks or the red army mustering tent first. So you can take Ingys, Conscripts, and CS, or Ingy, TH/Snipers.

It's similar with US or Brits. (Rifles + Engys or Infantry + LT)


You are certainly welcome to rely on Conscripts with Molotovs or Sturmovie Ingys in order to skip T2 in lieu for Light Tankovy for an armored rush.

I think your main problem is that you're looking at the whole thing as one giant linear equation. As PE you typically would not build T1 then T2 then T3 then T4 unless you are raping your opponent. The same is true for most factions except brits which are a whole different story.

Typically the soviet gameplay should be relying on heavy T2 support with heavier variants of infantry or a T3 rush for light armor and a backtech for elite infantry. There are tons of ways the soviet teching process would go and the horizon expands with armory upgrades. You could skip backteching for Sturmovie which are very powerful as assault infantry.

Also, version tag or hammer of doom.

Ok I played against "Trannyhunterx" and yes, I understand fully that PE would never do T1-T2-T3-T4.

I'll try what you said for Soviets and see how it turns out next time I play.

its fun. i always regret when i dont field some Sturmovie injenery's.

bopokippo wrote:
Ok I played against "Trannyhunterx" and yes, I understand fully that PE would never do T1-T2-T3-T4.

I'll try what you said for Soviets and see how it turns out next time I play.

I see. Good to see pvp.

Try a sniper start. 2 Ingys, build SSB, tech to snipers. This works great against PE and in team games. Grasp the measly 25 fuel for sturmovie and op a muni point and you've got a badass main fighting force. Then you can choose a doctrine (Do you want tank support before your tank hall? If so go BT. Are you in need of AT infantry? Go prop)

Last edited February 14, 2012 at 12:04 PM by Cranialwizard

Cranialwizard wrote:

bopokippo wrote:
Ok I played against "Trannyhunterx" and yes, I understand fully that PE would never do T1-T2-T3-T4.

I'll try what you said for Soviets and see how it turns out next time I play.

I see. Good to see pvp.

Try a sniper start. 2 Ingys, build SSB, tech to snipers. This works great against PE and in team games. Grasp the measly 25 fuel for stir movie and op a mini point and you've got a badass main fighting force. Then you can choose a doctrine (Do you want tank support before your tank hall? If so go BT. Are you in need of AT infantry? Go prop)

Very powerful buildorder indeed.

Just to put my two thought. You really only have 2 feasible options with SU. Ingineery spam is too weak IMO and even with micro and green cover they're still pretty weak so scratch that. And who gets TH early on, especially versus Wehr? You get murdered :(.

So really your only 2 options early on are snipers or Conscripts. But unless your sniper micro is good then you probably cant pull that off and even then, bikes and SCs can hunt you down (IDK maybe you can mine the bike which I have it but still  :-\)

Trannyhunterx wrote:
Just to put my two thought. You really only have 2 feasible options with SU. Ingineery spam is too weak IMO and even with micro and green cover they're still pretty weak so scratch that. And who gets TH early on, especially versus Wehr? You get murdered :(.

So really your only 2 options early on are snipers or Conscripts. But unless your sniper micro is good then you probably cant pull that off and even then, bikes and SCs can hunt you down (IDK maybe you can mine the bike which I have it but still  :-\)

agreed. Sniper openings can be powerful I guess with the sturmovie followup, but what else is there?

support barracks starts work best against PE, or team games.

so... there wouldn't happen to be any good anti-wehr strats around, would there?

BTW, what infantry type are guards? Heroic? Soldier? Elite?

Guards have elite armour.

For a while you'll be effective but you lack capping power and are vunerable to vehicles :(. AC and SC can detect reasonably well and IHT can hunt down snipers :P

bopokippo wrote:
so... there wouldn't happen to be any good anti-wehr strats around, would there?

BTW, what infantry type are guards? Heroic? Soldier? Elite?

Vs Wehr it all comes down to how well you flank and how well you use your Command Squad. Use him to outflank mg42 and use conscripts for throwing molotovs if needed. Later on you should rely on guards/rbs strelky and snipers.

and btw, with that sniper opening into sturmovie, you have to pay excess 35 fuel to back tech to the Red Army Mustering Tent to get the Tank Hall transiation so.... kind of much to ask. The Tank hall is also ridiculously high for its fuel costs and the light tankkovy upgrade should cost considerably less fuel as should the heavy tankkovy (by a slighter margin) because of that Support Barracks penalty (which really kills diversity of a Red Army Musterting Tent--->tank hall strategy).

bopokippo wrote:
and btw, with that sniper opening into sturmovie, you have to pay excess 35 fuel to back tech to the Red Army Mustering Tent to get the Tank Hall transiation so.... kind of much to ask. The Tank hall is also ridiculously high for its fuel costs and the light tankkovy upgrade should cost considerably less fuel as should the heavy tankkovy (by a slighter margin) because of that Support Barracks penalty (which really kills diversity of a Red Army Musterting Tent--->tank hall strategy).

That's what doctrinal reliance plays into. If you're looking for cheap quick tanks from a sniper start go for the 4 CP tank riders. Later when you have the fuel you can create your back tech. Hell if you go prop for Navals and are in a 2v2 you don't NEED to backtech-use the fuel on upgrades in the armory and help your other mate out if he goes for tanks.

Watch the latest Sublime shoutcast. I go T1-T3 Prop.

Trust me, the fuel costs have been compared very carefully to those of the existing factions. There are no problems jumping straight to T3 if you gain the early advantage or put down an outpost. If you outpost up, you can even rush T4 if you've got a solid advantage and good callins.

plz read and help me

bopokippo wrote:
plz read and help me

I've read your edited post.  This is going to sound blunt, and I don't mean any offense against you by saying this, but this is really a learn to play issue, not a balance issue, mate.

I have to agree with Yau. It sounds like you're lacking the usage of combined arms and you're splitting your army up.

Wow, thats alot of editting :P. If you cant get the sniper strat down then stick to Inginery Conscript and CS. A good tip is to use "Attack Move" The second a unit sees a enemy unit in range it will attack it. This is good for sniper strategies, as it involves less micro IMO. And since Sniper srats typically involve getting 25 fuel for sturmitove(I have no freaking idea how to spell this ;D) you should get it relatively fast. Quite honestly 25 is a really small amount if you can retain map control. Then when you get Sturmitove it should be easier. But Im no expert so you know, dont take my advice seriously :P ;). Better to listen to the balancers

Last edited February 25, 2012 at 12:51 PM by Trannyhunterx

Sturmovie Ingenery upgrade costs 200mp/25fuel, not 35. You dont need the Mustering Tent, too. Each Ingenery needs 100mp/75 ammo to upgrade to a sturmovie.

dArCReAvEr wrote:
Sturmovie Ingenery upgrade costs 200mp/25fuel, not 35. You dont need the Mustering Tent, too. Each Ingenery needs 100mp/75 ammo to upgrade to a sturmovie.

Oppsie  :-[. I editted my post to fit the correct info :P. Wow then Sturmovie is alot easier to get than I though :(

Yep. If you're good at microing snipers you can try 2 engineries, build ssb - sniper upgrade, 2 snipers. Then Armoury - Sturmovie upgrade and upgrade 2-3 Sturmovies, works best if you or your mate can OP a medium/high ammo point.
This strategy is mainly for 2on2 ++

v.6.0 Hi Guys!
Bokokippo's edited post is right on the money. The Teching Fuel costs make Sov Strategy too linear, hence predictable! There appears to be a strong bias against Sov Vehicular deployment. IIRC 180 fuel to get a T70 or T90 on the field, (T1,T3). Wehr T1,T3 costs 170 fuel to get a 234 AC on the field (or a StuG for 15 FP more). For 15 FP more the Sovs get Molotovs - not particularly effective vs vehicles. In a 2x2 game the Wehr could have two ACs on the field at 190 FP, T3 while; the partner can choose any number of tech tree strats.

Sov T2 Strats face similar problems; SturmIngenery are cheap fuel wise but add a 225 to 300 muni burden into the mix. you need 3 or 4 Squads to keep 2-3 squads in the field. And no crew weapons or ambulance without T1.

Good micro and sound tactics  overcome these obstacles, but the price of these high fuel costs result in one problem. You lose the Strategic initiative to the Wehr. The Krauts know what your doing. You are reacting to them. Cranial's comment on Doctrinal Reliance is to the point. The Wehr know what your doing as soon a you do and can compel you into an obvious Doctrinal choice. In a balanced game you shouldn't have to rely on Doctrines.

Changing Teching fuel costs isn't the only answer. Unlock crew weapons and AFVs with T1 or with T2 and T3. Unlock CS and Strelky with T1 or T2 (not an upgrade). Would it be balanced? Maybe not, but it would keep PE/Wehr quessing.

I don't plat too often vs SU anymore but I don't think I've ever seen a Sniper start followed by Stumovie. Im no expert but it's probably cause its too weak. With that said CS-3 Conscript-Molotov-T2 is probably the main and only strategy. Kind of predictable  :-\

Otto wrote:
v.6.0 Hi Guys!
Bokokippo's edited post is right on the money. The Teching Fuel costs make Sov Strategy too linear, hence predictable! There appears to be a strong bias against Sov Vehicular deployment. IIRC 180 fuel to get a T70 or T90 on the field, (T1,T3). Wehr T1,T3 costs 170 fuel to get a 234 AC on the field (or a StuG for 15 FP more). For 15 FP more the Sovs get Molotovs - not particularly effective vs vehicles. In a 2x2 game the Wehr could have two ACs on the field at 190 FP, T3 while; the partner can choose any number of tech tree strats.

Sov T2 Strats face similar problems; SturmIngenery are cheap fuel wise but add a 225 to 300 muni burden into the mix. you need 3 or 4 Squads to keep 2-3 squads in the field. And no crew weapons or ambulance without T1.

Good micro and sound tactics  overcome these obstacles, but the price of these high fuel costs result in one problem. You lose the Strategic initiative to the Wehr. The Krauts know what your doing. You are reacting to them. Cranial's comment on Doctrinal Reliance is to the point. The Wehr know what your doing as soon a you do and can compel you into an obvious Doctrinal choice. In a balanced game you shouldn't have to rely on Doctrines.

Changing Teching fuel costs isn't the only answer. Unlock crew weapons and AFVs with T1 or with T2 and T3. Unlock CS and Strelky with T1 or T2 (not an upgrade). Would it be balanced? Maybe not, but it would keep PE/Wehr quessing.

sry but sounds like bogus to me. Why do teching fuel costs make soviet strats predictable?

Killar wrote:

Otto wrote:
v.6.0 Hi Guys!
Bokokippo's edited post is right on the money. The Teching Fuel costs make Sov Strategy too linear, hence predictable! There appears to be a strong bias against Sov Vehicular deployment. IIRC 180 fuel to get a T70 or T90 on the field, (T1,T3). Wehr T1,T3 costs 170 fuel to get a 234 AC on the field (or a StuG for 15 FP more). For 15 FP more the Sovs get Molotovs - not particularly effective vs vehicles. In a 2x2 game the Wehr could have two ACs on the field at 190 FP, T3 while; the partner can choose any number of tech tree strats.

Sov T2 Strats face similar problems; SturmIngenery are cheap fuel wise but add a 225 to 300 muni burden into the mix. you need 3 or 4 Squads to keep 2-3 squads in the field. And no crew weapons or ambulance without T1.

Good micro and sound tactics  overcome these obstacles, but the price of these high fuel costs result in one problem. You lose the Strategic initiative to the Wehr. The Krauts know what your doing. You are reacting to them. Cranial's comment on Doctrinal Reliance is to the point. The Wehr know what your doing as soon a you do and can compel you into an obvious Doctrinal choice. In a balanced game you shouldn't have to rely on Doctrines.

Changing Teching fuel costs isn't the only answer. Unlock crew weapons and AFVs with T1 or with T2 and T3. Unlock CS and Strelky with T1 or T2 (not an upgrade). Would it be balanced? Maybe not, but it would keep PE/Wehr quessing.

sry but sounds like bogus to me. Why do teching fuel costs make soviet strats predictable?

Agreed. Your math is a bit off too.

Teching cost have little to do in the extent of strategy. If it's near impossible to scrape together the necessary fuel then yes, but T70/T90s pop at roughly the same time an M8 will. So what's the big deal?

The argument you are trying to make is almost like saying "Brits are predictable because of the tech cost".

Who said you have to rely on doctrines? I think you're mixing your definitions here.

RELYING on a doctrine means that a doctrine is 100% NECESSARY to win a game. You can not win without it.
SELECTING a doctrine is using one of the three choices you have to adapt to your strategy. You can use doctrines to create synergy between your units and use the abilities to support the gameplay style YOU choose.
Is like saying if you go Wehrmacht T1-T3, you HAVE to go Blitzkrieg. No, that's not the case. Though it works the best, you're not "forced" to pick any doctrine.

Use the doctrines to SUPPORT the type of gameplay you use. Just like in the T1-T3 jump mentioned above, you can use Stormtroopers to help with AT matters with Shrecks and help provide a bit of an anti-infantry stop-gap for your Volk because they will not be able to stand up to BARs without vet, but that goes against your strategy of devoting fuel to fast vehicles. It's not NECCESARY, because you can use Faust and Stugs and Mines to help deal with vehicles, or you can use Snipers, MGs, and well-microed Volk and Flamers to help defend against infantry.

Similarly, if you go for such an armor rush, you can use a doctrine like Propaganda to your advantage by making Navals, which can preform closely to the role of Storms and help with both AT and AI. They're not necessary but they are helpful, as you can simply use Conscripts, CS, Molotovs, and Sturmovie if you play your cards right to stop gap the Armored rush. Americans do it just fine with Rifles, and Conscripts have a lower DPS drop than rifles do.

Soviets have the biggest variety of teching avaiable. Look at the armoury, there are so much possibilites. Wehr never knows what will come next.

Sturmovie start, cosncript spam, early vehicles, sniper start (for the tough ones), RBS, HM (which can come early and is devestating on langres), strong TH (laying at mines), ...

Wehr goes T1 -> t2 or T1 -> T3
PE goes fast AC or P4 depending on map control


I think the problem here is not balance related but skill related. You are unsure how to play soviets yet (trying not to sound arrogant)

Killar wrote:
Sturmovie start, cosncript spam, early vehicles, sniper start (for the tough ones), RBS, HM (which can come early and is devestating on langres), strong TH (laying at mines), ...

WHats HM stand for ???

And doesn't conscript spam usually lead to fast vehicles anyways? I mean its not like you're going to buy 4-5 conscripts just to tech normally.

Its a trap!!

The enemy thinks you are going fast vehicles and will build atguns and schrecks. Instead you build more infantry and snipers and win. However you should have atgun ready because wehr most likely will pop out a stuh.

Last edited March 26, 2012 at 10:35 PM by Killar

Cat wrote:

Killar wrote:
Sturmovie start, cosncript spam, early vehicles, sniper start (for the tough ones), RBS, HM (which can come early and is devestating on langres), strong TH (laying at mines), ...

WHats HM stand for ???

And doesn't conscript spam usually lead to fast vehicles anyways? I mean its not like you're going to buy 4-5 conscripts just to tech normally.

The opponent will watch you.  Normally, Wehr players will get a Gren with a shreck as a precaution regardless of whether you have vehicles coming, but some guys refuse to buy a PAK until they hear the distinct Soviet tank sound.  As Wehr, around the time light vehicles hit the game, move your camera into the fog of war to where his base area is and start trying to hear for that shit.

Am making some tests. Could anyone write me more of these :)?

QuoteYep. If you're good at microing snipers you can try 2 engineries, build ssb - sniper upgrade, 2 snipers. Then Armoury - Sturmovie upgrade and upgrade 2-3 Sturmovies, works best if you or your mate can OP a medium/high ammo point.
This strategy is mainly for 2on2 ++

Where would you use this? On small maps?
What about 1v1?
What units/buildings you can build/produce with soviets in 5 mins max? -> I know it depends on map/fuel income but lets say medium map with medium res.

Thanks a lot.

Last edited April 8, 2012 at 4:59 PM by jojorabbit

It occurs to me that one of the reasons many of us consider Sov openings too weak,(read as predictable) is that there are only Three Tech buildings. (I exclude the armory as it is only a switching station that allows you to upgrade counters not build them). I understand Ostheer will be the same.

It is not really a matter of balancing resources. It takes about the same number of resources to get a PzIVd unlocked as it does for a T34.

The imbalance occurs because it is easier to anticipate what the Sovs will do next: PE:Sov  (4!/3!)/(3!/2!)= 4/3 or 33% easier to predict Sov's next move.

Last edited April 24, 2012 at 5:23 PM by Otto Halfhand

not always. for example, the soviets can often skip t2 to go conscript heavy and then straight to tank hall. also, if you think soviets are predictable, take a look at  the Brits.

Stealth the Combinations expressed by the factorials are independent of where you start in the Tech tree. the 4/3 ratio still is applicable. As you progress farther into the Teching War the probabilities of predicting whats next will change until all teching is done but the non- Sov player will have the advantage.

The only way to overcome this disadvantage is through the use of early recon to see what the enemy has built. We are talking about the first 7 minutes of the game here. During that period Axis factions have the only vehicular recon that has the speed to get down the map.

When dealing with the Brits it is not a matter of what they are going to build so much as where they will build from.

so your saying its easy to predict what unit specifically will be built first? not overall teching?

Its kinda true. Soviets basically have two options early game (1st 7min like Otto said): Lots of conscripts supported by CS or Sniper spam supported by (eventually) Sturmovie. Those are really their only two effective options early on. Of course later on there will be different stuff but we are talking really early.

ANd Brits are generally considered broken, RMC or not so they don't count :P

ehh, i disagree that brits are broken, but i do see your point.

stealthattack1 wrote:
ehh, i disagree that brits are broken, but i do see your point.

The British aren't "Broken", as some may say, however they offer a more static gameplay and very redundant. They are not a flexible faction like the others, and follow the same layout game after game after game.

Team games are the worst against Brits. Thank god Resource Sharing was removed.

IMO they are ok. Its just their vet system and their multitude of emplacements irks me :(

Cat wrote:
Its kinda true. Soviets basically have two options early game (1st 7min like Otto said): Lots of conscripts supported by CS or Sniper spam supported by (eventually) Sturmovie. Those are really their only two effective options early on. Of course later on there will be different stuff but we are talking really early...

• If I see conscripts (T1 start), I will pop out 2MGs or as PE use a T1/T3 start with SCs and early ACs.


• If I see several ings but no conscripts I may assume a T2a start. THs are expected next.  I may expect an early T4 to confirm this as 107mm and Stormovie are a likely possibility. It is quite likely the first infantry I will see will be Strelky and quite possibly pairs of Strelky and TH. In this case T2b will probably come before T3. I would rush an MG or PG/St44s.


• If I see several ings but no conscripts and no THs I will assume a 2 sniper start; IE T2b. This will probably not help much because the snipers will probably make their presence known first. :P But I would rush a mortar. For PE a T2/T3 start.


• If I see conscripts but no CS, I assume a Fast Vehicle Start because 350 MP is better spent on a second T70 then a CS. The Sovs can get out 2 T70s in about seven minutes.

stealthattack1 wrote:
so your saying its easy to predict what unit specifically will be built first? not overall teching?

I didn't say it is easy. And I think you have it backwards.

Cranialwizard wrote:
Thank god Resource Sharing was removed.

Cranial would you care to elaborate on this?

I think when a Brit truck locked down, the US player also gained the resource bonus. Thus when a Brit truck parked its ass on a medium muni point for example, the US player would also be making extra muni.

Otto wrote:

Cat wrote:
Its kinda true. Soviets basically have two options early game (1st 7min like Otto said): Lots of conscripts supported by CS or Sniper spam supported by (eventually) Sturmovie. Those are really their only two effective options early on. Of course later on there will be different stuff but we are talking really early...

• If I see conscripts (T1 start), I will pop out 2MGs or as PE use a T1/T3 start with SCs and early ACs.


• If I see several ings but no conscripts I may assume a T2a start. THs are expected next.  I may expect an early T4 to confirm this as 107mm and Stormovie are a likely possibility. It is quite likely the first infantry I will see will be Strelky and quite possibly pairs of Strelky and TH. In this case T2b will probably come before T3. I would rush an MG or PG/St44s.


• If I see several ings but no conscripts and no THs I will assume a 2 sniper start; IE T2b. This will probably not help much because the snipers will probably make their presence known first. :P But I would rush a mortar. For PE a T2/T3 start.


• If I see conscripts but no CS, I assume a Fast Vehicle Start because 350 MP is better spent on a second T70 then a CS. The Sovs can get out 2 T70s in about seven minutes.

stealthattack1 wrote:
so your saying its easy to predict what unit specifically will be built first? not overall teching?

I didn't say it is easy. And I think you have it backwards.

Cranialwizard wrote:
Thank god Resource Sharing was removed.

Cranial would you care to elaborate on this?

There are not only conscript + cs or sturmovie + sniper spam as viable options.
You can play:

1x ingenery -> CS -> 4x Conscript + molotovs -> t3 + navals
2x ingenery -> CS -> 2x Conscript -> fast Strelky + Sniper/mortar
2x ingenery -> t2 -> 2x Sniper -> ths/strelky/sturmovies
2x ingenery -> t2 -> 2x ths -> stumovies

Also there are several variations possible. and even if you only have 3 buildings you still have several techs to research which completely differ in terms of strategies.
Panzer Hall built? Ok, but what's coming out of it? t70, t90? Or a t34?
t1 t2 t3 built? Hmm... T34/85? Or even IS 2? You can just guess what's coming. When you play vs Wehr and you see that t3 is built you can be almost 100% sure that a Puma/StuG is coming next. Same with USA, when you can see t3 being built you also can be sure that a M8 or T17 will hit the field.

If you look at it this way soviets are actually less predictable than US or Wehr.

Another possible early opening is playing without a CS. You can get 5 cons on the field and this massive harassment power lets you rush vehicles pretty fast, which don't benefit from CS global vet anyway. It's not really viable to go for T2 without a CS though.